 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech!
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:41 AM Not all environmental organizations, pdq. Just the K Street enviros. Their top leaders regularly use the revolving door between the Capitol and K Street. It is true they work for the Democratic party. But that is mostly due to the fact the Republican party won't hire them. I should add that Jeffrey St Clair has another book just out on US environmental politics, called "Born Under a Bad Sky: Notes from the Dark Side of the Earth". Also over at Grist this week is a very telling article on a poll done on Gen Y and green industries. Here it is: What companies do today's trendsetters consider to be the top 15 green brands? It's not who you might think ... A survey of 100 Gen Y'ers (born 1979-1993) asked which brands they perceived to be most eco-friendly. Here are the top 15: * Whole Foods * Trader Joe's * Toyota * Honda * Aveda * Zipcar * American Apparel * Ikea * 7th Generation * Apple * The Body Shop * Starbucks * Netflix * Method The aim of the survey, the consulting firm said, was to "discover which companies are going beyond the niche segment of hard-core Greenies to win over influential Gen Y's." In making their selections, those surveyed told Outlaw Consulting that qualities among the standouts included trailblazers that went green in a big way long before their competitors, brands with clean, minimalist design and products in categories that are key to some of their basic needs -- like things they eat, wear or put on their bodies. Sigh. Kids these days ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:50 AM Is it any wonder they don't see Obama and the Democrats as the greenwashers they are? I mean, Al Gore finagled himself a Nobel for saving the environment. I guess he had to find some way to do it, since they wouldn't give him one for inventing the Internet, eh? Here is the deal. Want to know how we're doing in terms of our environmental politics? Look to how the Democratic presidential nominee's agenda now reflects the Bush/Cheney energy agenda. For far too long, Democrats have claimed capitulation was really just bi-partisan compromise. Nowhere has this been more evident than on the Iraq war and the environment. Obama will, very soon, come out in support of resurrecting and redeeming the nearly dead nuclear power and coal industries as "clean energy" alternatives. You want to know who will get the $150 billion he claims will save the environment in his energy plan? Answer: it won't be the innovators and inventors of renewables and authentically green industries. No, sirree! He already told us yesterday, in his speech in Lansing. He'll throw a little to the Detroit carmakers, to save them from going under. Coal and gas industries/utilities. Nuclear power industries/utilities. In other words, Obama is gonna give all the incentive money to Big Polluters. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: pdq Date: 05 Aug 08 - 09:56 AM GUEST,DV: You really do need to join Mudcat as a full member. You have much more to say than some of the stale crowd of over-posters we have now. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:00 AM And like I said yesterday, $150 billion over 10 years is a cruel joke. That paltry sum wouldn't even begin to put a dent in the growth of energy demand, much less reverse it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM Yep, the great conservation organizations of the past are now Environmental groups (the Sierra Club). Just cheering sections for Democrat politicos. No concern about plants and animals, just politics and keeping the donations maxed out. You got that right! If they cared anything about the environment, they'd take a stand against illegal immigration. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:09 AM Riginslinger, What has that statement to do with the price of eggs? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Joseph P Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:22 AM It depends on the CO2 emmissions in egg production, and egg consumption among ethno-specific immigrant groups. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM Bingo! That's the deal. Thanks for helping me figure that one out there, Joseph P. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:42 AM On the other hand, in regards to pollution- Illegal immigration is one form of population increase ( unless the illegals kill enough legals to offset that). Increased population in a specific area increases pollution and energy use. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM Dv, You've made me see the light. A vote for the Republicans is a vote for the environment! Four more years!!! Four more years!!! Four more years!!! LOL! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 10:55 AM I find it really puzzling. This guy Obama is smart, energetic, and skilled; he's putting together a broad plan for revitalizing a moribund economy and breaking out of what is essentially a death spiral, and all you *(^&*^&*^s can do is generate nasty remarks, cynical attacks and generally try to run him down; despite the fact that he is pretty clearly the best leadership option out there at present. HE's twice as articulate as McCain and seems to be the source of most of McCain's good ideas. So, what is it about him that compels you to try and make nothing out of him? I gotta say, the human psyche is a gennyou-wine Wonderland. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM A mindless, stupid vote is a mindless, stupid vote. Not all Republicans are in the pocket of Big Polluters, just most of them. McCain's energy policy isn't that far apart from Obama's, he is just more honest about it, is all. McCain will come right and tell you, he is shilling for nukes and coal. Obama, OTOH, veils and hides his support for nukes and coal by burying that support in the fine print, but it is there. Neither of these two candidates is discussing the even greater environmental crisis that has been with us for decades already, the water crisis. Do you know how much water dirty energy uses and pollutes to the point of being unusable? Amos, the problem you are having is being able to think outside the "must vote Democrat with no dissent" box. Perhaps you are one of those Democratic party creatures who is disturbed by the diversity of opinion among grassroots progressives, whose votes aren't, after all, owned by your party. Maybe that is why you are puzzled. But the main reason why you seem to be puzzled is, you seem to be easily confounded by people who don't share your personal view of the world. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:22 AM "Obama Nails It: Calls For Release of 70 Million Barrels From The Strategic Petroleum Reserve Posted August 4, 2008 | 05:35 PM (EST) (Huffington Post) Finally we have some one on the national presidential stage willing to confront the staggeringly high oil prices at its core. Nothing would be more immediately effective than a willingness to release oil from the STP to rein in oil prices. It would immediately impact the psychology of the traders, having them begin a run for the exits. It would be a signal to oil producers, most especially OPEC that our days of being patsies to their cartel corruption are at an end. And it would have an immediate and salutary impact on the price of oil. Witness today simply mentioning the possibility broke the price of oil almost immediately by over $5 per barrel to under $120/bbl ending the day a shade under $4 barrel lower...." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:33 AM Codswallop, DV. I singed up with the Dems solely for the purpose of voting for Obama in the primaries. Furthermore, Obama's discussion of nuclear technolgy was explicit, and his mention of coal was explicit as parts of the overall plan. It was poken plain as day, and there was not a whit of dishonesty about it. How do you get "fine print" in a speech, anyway? Your criticisim continues to seem to me to be disingenuous and hypercritical. And what puzzles me is that you are projecting such ignobility on a decent intelligentm an who is trying to bring together a national effort in a positive direction. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:38 AM "You won't hear me say this too often, but I couldn't agree more with the explanation that Senator McCain offered a few weeks ago. He said, "Our dangerous dependence on foreign oil has been thirty years in the making, and was caused by the failure of politicians in Washington to think long-term about the future of the country." What Senator McCain neglected to mention was that during those thirty years, he was in Washington for twenty-six of them. And in all that time, he did little to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. He voted against increased fuel efficiency standards and opposed legislation that included tax credits for more efficient cars. He voted against renewable sources of energy. Against clean biofuels. Against solar power. Against wind power. Against an energy bill that – while far from perfect – represented the largest investment in renewable sources of energy in the history of this country. So when Senator McCain talks about the failure of politicians in Washington to do anything about our energy crisis, it's important to remember that he's been a part of that failure. Now, after years of inaction, and in the face of public frustration over rising gas prices, the only energy proposal he's really promoting is more offshore drilling – a position he recently adopted that has become the centerpiece of his plan, and one that will not make a real dent in current gas prices or meet the long-term challenge of energy independence. George Bush's own Energy Department has said that if we opened up new areas to drilling today, we wouldn't see a single drop of oil for seven years. Seven years. And Senator McCain knows that, which is why he admitted that his plan would only provide "psychological" relief to consumers. He also knows that if we opened up and drilled on every single square inch of our land and our shores, we would still find only three percent of the world's oil reserves. Three percent for a country that uses 25% of the world's oil. Even Texas oilman Boone Pickens, who's calling for major new investments in alternative energy, has said, "this is one emergency we can't drill our way out of." " (Excerpt from speech. Text can be found here. It was, by the way, a terrific speech.) A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM That isn't what your posting history indicates, Amos. Quite the contrary. Like I and Stringsinger have recently said in recent threads about Obama and McCain, most of us who would vote for any Democrat with a pulse do so purely to vote against the Republicans. The only gung-ho Obama idealists I know are kids--like the same ones who list Apple as a green company. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Donuel Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:44 AM Snide ignorant lies and distortions are surprising? No but they are ultimatly dismaying. I find it puzzling that those most critical of the details involvwd in correcting our biggest mistakes in this civilization, are the same people who seldom see or respond with an understanding of the BIG PICTURE. For these people I began to illustrate the big picture in actual pictures. They may not have been woth a thousand words but the best ones were succint and blatantly true. I used to think that when we speak/write about the 'big picture' it was perhaps just too obvious for people to respond or even bother to amplify their agreement. These people are not merely missing the forest for the trees , they are missing the whole earth. Point this out and they start yelling and snarling. Then it was theorized that the snide niggling about an obscure detail, be it true or false, was an intentional distraction to help hide the big obvious threatening picture, thereby preserving the grasp of power by the Cheney McCain types who hold constant cold and hot running warfare as the best and only example of the strength of the United States. Have they no decency? Have they no insight? Have they no conscience? Of course they do. Its just that they also have the most primitive tribal mindset that has served mankind for the last 70,000 years. There is no more room or need for them in our instant global world. Not politically, religiously, militarily, enviormentally, psychologically or even personally. Deep down in their fear ridden hippocampus I believe they realize this and like a caged animal will do any savage thing imaginable to overpower and over throw their true masters... which is "We the People." That many of us have evolved beyond the "GetEm" mentality is our strenth and not a weakness, no matter how loud the savages yell and complain. One thing that John McCan't is betting on is to not under estimate the herd mentality of people who have grown comfortable in being led, just as long as the respondsibility for that leadership is never placed back on them. I know of no individualy that was full goose bonkers for Bush... who now makes any personal apology or acceptance of the respondsibility for that irrespondsible idiot. They were in for a penny and lost all their home and job and still can't voice an appropriate outrage. Just maybe McCan't will make the legacy for Bush family globalism finally work and free credit will reign again. Those fairy tales were meant for children who are easily decieved. As for the energy speech...It is very realistic! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM Facts is facts, DV, and your opinions won't even make them take notice. I supported John Kerry, but I did so as a registered Independent. It is quite presumptuous of you to try and correct me on my own history. Oh....here's what your Old WHite Boy has to say about solving the energy crisis: "Sen. John McCain, (R) presidential candidate: "We need to offshore drill for oil and natural gas. We need to drill here and we need to drill now, and anybody who says we can achieve energy independence without using and increasing these existing energy resources, either doesn't have the experience to understand the challenge we face, or isn't giving the American people some straight talk." " Isn't that inspiring, and doesn't it demonstrate a deep understanding and breadth of vision? Isn't that the sort of slavish single-solution monomania you want leading this great nation of ours? He takes my breath away! (And I mean that in the worst possible way). Compared to the wide-spectrum leadership shown in O)bama's energy speech, this guy is a shriveled tool of corporate interests. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:47 AM "HE's twice as articulate as McCain and seems to be the source of most of McCain's good ideas..." Yeah, if you like being talked down to, he's more articlulate than McCain, but his new energy program is exactly what McCain's program has been since the campaign started. He saw McCain coming up in the polls, and co-opted McCain's energy policy. The only thing that's different is using the US reserves to drive down the current price, and that idea has come up every week or so since the original oil embargos back in the mid 1970's. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM Donuel, are you suggesting that voting Democratic will reverse the dismaying state of the environment and miraculously solve the challenges to our survival on this planet? Man, there ARE some naive people in this forum! For the record, those of us who have seen both Democrat and Republican presidents and Congresses come and go, realize the political institutions are the problem, and the reason we find ourselves in the mess we are in today. So criticizing Obama is no different than criticizing Bush/Clinton/Bush/Reagan/Carter on the environment--there is plenty to criticize for all of them, and the Congress even more so. Maybe you all should follow the advice of the Dalai Lama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn6tv38jFRI You can always vote for McKinney or Nader. I won't, but it is a legitimate alternative to Obama, especially if you want to vote to break the race and gender barriers, and focus the national agenda on the need to truly rid ourselves of Anglo American cultural and political hegemony, and start making our leaders look and act like us, rather than the Skull and Bones Society. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: pdq Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM The strategic oil reserves are there for a good reason: we may be attacked again and find ourselves at war. In some cases we paid more for that oil than market value because it was considerd necessary. Leave it where it is. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Donuel Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM Well if all you can do is name call I suggest that you and John Savage are only seperated by a missing father. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 11:58 AM Well, I'd like some pointers to why you say what he said was a reflectiopn of earlier positions byu McCain. I haven't seen McCain present an energy platform, so I'm at a disadvantage on this one. Help me out here. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Teribus Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM Having listened through the speech, which was understandably pure electioneering, three things struck me immediately: - First is that he decrys certain "solutions", then says that he will be prepared to adopt them; - Secondly he glosses over the absolutely enormous costs of the programmes he intends to promote and the inevitable disruption their implementation will result in; - Thirdly he glosses over and fails to tell the American public the truth loudly enough - Dependence upon "foreign" oil is down to the personal consumption of refined product by the American people. If you want to reduce that dependence upon "foreign" oil in the short term - use less, get used to paying more. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:05 PM Donuel, who are you accusing of name calling, and where are they doing it? Why not try going to McCain's website, or reading the mainstream press? Obama's own campaign ad attacking McCain this week speaks to McCain's flip flop on offshore drilling in June. The Washington Post is the source of the Obama campaign's information used in that ad, but I believe it was investigative reporters from Mother Jones that actually uncovered the links to the oil industry donations that poured into McCain's campaign coffers after he flipped on offshore drilling, to the tune of $1.3 million. The Obama ad overstates that amount, and calls it "$2 million", but hey-a quarter mil here, a quarter mil there--what's the diff? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:09 PM pdq, Obama's proposal is to replace light sweet crude in the reserve for heavier grades that are not so good for cars. Its a compromise for sure, but it is not likely to put us in danger. I certainly don't have any problem with Obama making compromises to get things done. Its what he has been saying he would do all along. If I wanted someone stubborn, i would have supported Hillary. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Riginslinger Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:13 PM "I haven't seen McCain present an energy platform..." I understand McCain is giving out air-gauges as a way mocking Obama. But McCain was the first in the campaign with "off-shore oil drilling, nukes, liquified coal, oil shale, and etc." These are all ideas that have been on the table for years, so there's nothing new. But Obama wanted nothing that wasn't "Green" to start with, and when he saw McCain gaining on him, he changed his tune. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:15 PM Ah. P'raps so. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:21 PM I haven't seen anyone besides the Rove attack machine saying that opening the reserve would endanger our national security. Opening the reserves for the claimed purpose of offering relief to voters is pandering, not threatening national security. We aren't ALL idiots vulnerable to the propaganda machine. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM The reserve is there for strategic reasons. Strategic, cold war reasons. Republicans still talk about the need for B1 Bombers, they still talk about the importance of that reserve. Since 1989, its been a way for the President to try to influence oil prices. But buying or selling 80,000 barrels per day does not have a real effect on they supply. Here is why... The total world consumption of crude oil in 1996 was 71.7 million barrels per day (there are 42 US gallons in a barrel, or 159 litres). OPEC estimates that total world oil consumption could reach around 100 million barrels per day by the year 2020. (From OPEC Annual Statistical Bulletin: 1996, OWEM Scenarios Report: 1998.) http://www.opec.org/faqs.htm |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM Right, but that doesn't change the fact that Obama opening the reserves to bring down gas prices for a week or two is pure vote pandering. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: pdq Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:42 PM They are called "strategic" oil reserves for a reason. That oil is just where it belongs. It is not there to provide a cheap campaign tool for a political candidate. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM The problem isn't the politicians...its the simple minded people who believe their obvious pack of lies,,,on both sides! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Peace Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM Bingo! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM And Obama pandering opens him to legitimate criticism from both the progressives and conservatives. Why? Because the educated voter knows we are on the brink of a very serious reckoning regarding energy and the environment. We are going to feel pain--a lot of pain, as a result of the US political institutions being in bed with corporations. There is no changing that fact. There is no way to save us from ourselves. I doubt I will vote at all for president now. I really was going to vot for Obama until last Friday. But this feels like 2000 to me. What is the point? Voting for either candidate just means I am willing to continue particpating in a corrupt political system. I'm about to join with my cynical friends who believe that no meaningful change can happen until either the corrupt political system is fixed or collapses under it's own weight, and new political systems in North America rise to take the place of the current US political system. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM You got that right, Guest from Sanity! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:03 PM >>They are called "strategic" oil reserves for a reason. Yes and the reason is that they are there so that there would be tank and bomber fuel in reserve for war against the Soviet Union. I am not so sure that it is purely pandering. There is a psychological component to oil prices. There is also the attempt to counter Bush/McCain pandering. There is also the fact that the oil companies are blaming a large part of the gas prices on a lack of refining capacity. If I am not mistaken, light sweet crude is the easiest to refine into gasoline and the grade that best suits most US refineries. Swapping light sweet crude in the reserve for other grades could bring more gasoline to market sooner and be the quickest way to immediately impact supply and demand. It also would not make a big difference on our ability to defend ourselves from the Soviets. M1 tanks will burn just about anything. So when the red army uses the naval capacity they never had to land the tanks on our shores that they used to have, we'll be just as ready as we would otherwise have been. :-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM Hey, DV, check out my post history! I can't believe that 'intelligent' creative people would have taken exception to the things I've posted.. but they do...go figure!...and I'm on their side! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:10 PM >>>There is no changing that fact. There is no way to save us from ourselves. I doubt I will vote at all for president now. I really was going to vot for Obama until last Friday. But this feels like 2000 to me. What is the point? Voting for either candidate just means I am willing to continue particpating in a corrupt political system. I'm about to join with my cynical friends who believe that no meaningful change can happen until either the corrupt political system is fixed or collapses under it's own weight, and new political systems in North America rise to take the place of the current US political system.<< If you believe this, if it doesn't make a difference, then why are you pissing on Amos? Its just mean spirited trolling. If politics is irrelevant, why don't you go find something relevant to occupy your time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM Yes it is pandering, because it is a one time shot, and will do nothing over the long haul to help Joe Schmow feel less pain at the pump. Same deal with his "free rebate" offer of $1,000 per family/$500 per individual. It doesn't do a thing long term to deal with the energy and environmental crises, but it does pander in that "chicken in every pot" way. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:18 PM until either the corrupt political system is fixed or collapses under it's own weight, and new political systems in North America rise to take the place of the current US political system. How would you bring that about , GfS? The only path I can see is filling the system itself with people of conscience willing to change it for the common good; either that or an armed and bloody revolution. The latter is not viable; and, I hope anyway, not inevitable. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: pdq Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM "...Yes and the reason is that they are there so that there would be tank and bomber fuel in reserve for war against the Soviet Union." "It also would not make a big difference on our ability to defend ourselves from the Soviets... M1 tanks..." {2X by JtS} Ever hear about the US Navy's strategic oil reserve at Elk Hills, California? Maybe if we referred to the Teapot Dome Scandal of 1922 it would start coming back to you. The US had oil set aside for strategic reasons before the Soviet Union existed. Nice try, though. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Amos Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM I can't believe that 'intelligent' creative people would have taken exception to the things I've posted Ya know, GfS, I've found many of your posts thoughtful and interesting; and I have found some of them vituperative and nasty, or wildly over-generalized. Guess which ones I've taken exception to?? A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,DV Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:38 PM Amos, that statement was mine. No one person or political party brings about the collapse of a political system from systemic, widespread corruption, or finally gets it reformed. When those things happen, there are millions of fingerprints on them. How does one reform the corrupt system currently in place? I don't have an answer to that one. But I am becoming more and more convinced by friends and colleagues that refusing to participate in the corrupt system may well hasten it's demise. While painful, difficult, and dangerous, that may well be what needs to happen to heal the environment, and put the crooks out of business for awhile. In the big scheme of world history, this year's election isn't nearly as important as some are making it out to be (like the media and election industries that make obscene profits from the year round, 24/7 two party campaign industry). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:38 PM Pdq, Before WWII there are a number of great powers, with huge armies to worry about. Afterwards there was one. Now there are none. If the reserve is not for financial emergencies, like this one, then please tell me what the strategic purpose is? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Donuel Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM Indeed who ever is elected as the executive figurehead of the US goverment, he or she will have to play monopoly with the devil. the devil goes by many names in this regard: the Military Industrial Complex, the Octopus, the 5 families, etc. Playing monopoly with the devil is daunting since the devil owns the bank and indeed owns the money that bought the game of buying whatever goverment and laws the devil desires. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM Actually, Jack, there is one. It's the USA. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM ;-) nice try though! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 08 - 01:43 PM Yeah Little hawk, The US is stockpiling crude to fight us. Its a Pogo thing |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Have you seen Obama's energy speech! From: pdq Date: 05 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM "...Before WWII there are a number of great powers, with huge armies to worry about...Now there are none." Another statement of opinion, not fact. China, by virtue of its population of 1.5 billion people, its enormous economy, and its technology (mostly stolen from the US).is the most powerful country on Earth. The Unied States and Russia are powerful due to our economy and thechnology, but India, with 1.2 billion people is nobody to mess with. Pakistan and Iran are smaller, but quite dangerous if provoked. Pakistan is poised to drive into India on a huge new road they are building and annex Kashmir. War could result, and this is coming in just a few years. The world is less safe than it was at the end of WWII. Leave our strategic oil reserves where they are. Period. |
