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BS: Out of body experiences
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: 1LizzieCornish Date: 12 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM There are scientists. There are believers. And there are those who simply 'know'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Paul Burke Date: 12 Sep 08 - 04:03 AM The idea that you can make a S-R system, no matter how complex, appreciate anything, or genuinely perceive anything, is absurd Why? You're just assuming that your answer is true in advance. It's normally the woo brigade who castigate the scientific view as closed minded, but you can't get much more closed than rejecting other points of view simply because you don't feel like believeing them. How about the idea that consciousness is a propert that ALL matter can have, when appropriately organised. That your perception of it being YOUR consciousness is an illusion; it's just the ordinary consciousness that all matter is capable of. That hence YOU don't exist- it's an illusion that YOU are separate from other matter. No evidence for it? As much as for ghosts, spirits, souls or whatever you like to call the incorporeal observer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ebbie Date: 12 Sep 08 - 03:02 AM Bill D, I have reread my post and I must say I am sorry. My heavy handed attempt at expressing approval and admiration - even when I don't agree with you - comes across as sniping. 'Twasn't meant that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 12 Sep 08 - 01:28 AM The phrase preceded any actual analysis of brain areas by MRI, I'm sure. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ebbie Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:34 AM "Amos... I can define Gods & Angels and Demons in similar language, as well as many other concepts humans use, but using the words serves only to express an idea...." Bill D Bill, I have wondered about it and I think you have slipped up and given us the answer: What concepts humans use, eh? Tell me, have you come to us from the future or from the past or just maybe from out there? (Wouldn't it be neat to discover that some friends are not of this earth but are in fact angels (or demons? yikes) or higher beings of some sort?) Amos, it made me recall the phrase "push(ing) my/his/her buttons" when you said: "Some very insane patterns of behavior can be caused just by stimulating certain buttons, and this occurs to the exact degree the individual is unable to differentiate between things and so associates past confusion with present circumstances in ways that are not valid." Did that phrase come from before we knew that areas of the brain have these specific responders? It does sound as though one stems from the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:59 PM Well, thanks Bill, for a thoughtful reply. I think you see a balance in any person between reactions and analysis. Some very insane patterns of behavior can be caused just by stimulating certain buttons, and this occurs to the exact degree the individual is unable to differentiate between things and so associates past confusion with present circumstances in ways that are not valid. This happens because of "blind" association, automatic pushbutton thinking that says now is the same as then or this is the same as that when it ain't. Some lower organisms are entirely stimulus response, and others are capable of some moments of more analytical attention, like well-behaved dogs who are always alert to what their "person" wants and try to do it. I have known horses that seemed a lot mellower and more intelligent about events than their riders, too. I've known people who were pure animal response systems with no intervention of higher orders or thought, and I've known some animals who seemed less reaction-based than some people. So I think the balance between genuine thought and reactions posing as thought varies from organism to organism, and it clearly manifests more distinctly in more complex brains such as ours. This is something (metaphorically speaking) akin tot he difference between a semaphore, a Morse code receiver, and a cell phone. But in each case I think there is also a separate assessment that should be made of the operator at the other end, so to speak. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:44 PM Peace... uhh... I barely know how to be agreed with... but thanks for reading that whole mish-mash. (I haven't run down the street naked in, oh...ages. I doubt it 's in either of our interests to compare form..) Amos...re: "transition between reactions and understanding or perception." I just can't agree that such a 'transition' is anything that is particularly noteworthy. I'd approach a discussion about it by asking if you consider animals to have the same 'spiritual' aspects that you attribute to humans. And, if so, how far down the scale? And, if not, when did we humans acquire it in our evolutionary progress? My own 'model' is that understanding is merely something like 'critical mass'. Lower 'animals' appreciate danger and can do various levels of 'planning' and recognize friends & foes,...etc....so how is reflective cognition anything more than just more complex types of 'reactions'? Presumably, 5 million years ago, our remote ancestors didn't 'understand' in the sense we do....then when did we get the ability? 30,000 years ago, it looks like most people were much like us, except for experience. I assume THEY dreamed and had stuff go on in their heads that made them wonder what was happening. (I ask the same type of question to those trying to sell me some religious 'truth' about my soul, and how it's gonna be fried for eternity if I don't QUIT asking these questions) "Gee, when did we get 'souls'? Do chimps have 'em? How about worms? And all those things in between?" Folks like the Jains have a simple answer...ALL beings have some sort of soul, and killing one..even a bug.. brings bad Karma...etc. As far as I know, they don't argue it...they just shrug and avoid stepping on bugs. So...you see? Once one gets the idea of 'spiritual entity' implanted, whether it's a fact or not, one is committed to all sorts of complex hypothesizing about the extent, origin and status of these entities.
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:54 PM Well, Bill, I hear you. But the simple fact is you DO have moments of understanding, and osmewhere at the end of the long synaptic chain of firing neurons, there is--even for you!--a transition between reactions and understanding or perception. If you can tell me what that is without resorting to unfathomable complexity, I'll be real interested. Until then, William stays in my box!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Peace Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM THAT is why I respect you so much, Bill. And guess what? I agree with you. In ancient times one of us would go, "Eureka." Since you likely look better'n me naked, I'll suggest YOU go running down the streets shouting it. Thanks, Bill. Great post BTW. Bruce |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:49 PM Nope..not a liar, Peace, *smile*.... As I said before, I NEVER doubt that a person experienced 'something'. It may even be relevant to their life and very moving emotionally...and important that they come to terms with certain memories & experiences. I have had a few myself. Nor am I 'looking' for the cause. I am suggesting that there are, logically and rationally, OTHER possible causes than what Amos and others are claiming, thus casting doubt on various METAphysical concepts. I debate with Amos because he specifically claims that there ARE 'spiritual entities' which can both be part of a physical body and be separate from it. Look at his post right above yours. Amos... I can define Gods & Angels and Demons in similar language, as well as many other concepts humans use, but using the words serves only to express an idea....and IF that's all one wants to do....that is, to create conceptual entities to account for experiences and feelings that are hard to grasp otherwise, then I can't really complain. People DO use metaphor and modeling thru language to express our reflections on existence and the possible meanings of existence when we are GIVEN few clues. This is done in poetry and literature and song every day. *I* sing songs that express such things, and manages to convey emotion and wonder at the very IDEA of being alive and capable of reflexive conciousness. I just don't fall into the trap of assuming that concepts, like Platonic 'forms', have any cognitive reality and can act independently of the corporeal being that has them. THAT is what I suggest implies and requires many un-stated premises, which, if any one of them are false, causes the whole house-of cards to collapse. THAT is what Occam refers to when he suggests his 'razor' as a guide, and THAT is what is so often just slipped into a story as if everyone should realize its truth...even if we can't agree on what it is, where it came from or how to list its characteristics. That's what makes it so slippery....people nod knowingly and assume they 'understand' in order to support each other's emotional reactions to what **MAY** be nothing more than electrochemical patterns of neural activity in their brains. It is sure not nearly as interesting if it only a form of dreaming. I saw a program the other night about a special branch of psychology concerned with memory and how much confidence we place in our memories. Tests were done where people wore helmet cameras, and were presented with strange circumstances. Later, they were interviewed about the situations, and,,,yes...their memories often differed widely from what the testers KNEW had happened and what video from cameras showed! When experience is hard to take in & interpret, our natural tendency is to MAKE some sense out of it...even to creating facts and then swearing that's what happened. No, they weren't lying!! They had processed memories until they had a coherent pattern to relate. Now...I submit that if a body is near death, or reacting to drugs in a hospital...etc...it sure might have it's neural pathways discombomulated (that's a technical term)...I myself once experienced LSD..wow, fellers! But I don't think any of those 'sights' that I saw were real, or that any 'spiritual' part of me left & went wandering! As they say, "you can't prove a negative"...so it is not my goal to say "You could not have done what you say you did." My only goal is to make sure that alternate possibilities are outlined...especially when I am asked, as Jane did. No...I retract that...I have another goal... to force myself to clarify my own thoughts and to put them down so that, if I re-read this thread in a few months or years, I will be satisfied that I said what I meant and that I'm happy to have others read it. Why, even succeed in that now & then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Peace Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:52 PM The difficulty is people trying to explain the OBE when they haven't had them. I don't care what caused it--neurons, time lapse, faulty memory, etc. You people are looking for the cause. I don't CARE about the cause. Nor do I ask others to believe. In fact, should you determine it could not have happened, then I'm a liar as far as you are concerned. I would not be perceived as a liar by others who have had one or more experiences. I don't mean any of that to sound offensive. Go, find the cause. But y'all ain't gonna find it on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:41 PM Right, Bill. Let's define what a spiritual being is in the simplest of possible terms. 1. An essentially non-local awareness unit capable of knowing, perception and intention. Such a unit is only located to the degree it considers itself to be located, but is inherently not part of the space-time continuum. 2. An awareness-of-awareness capability capable of assuming a position in space or time. There are a lot of other observable attributes and furbelows, but those are the core aspects. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:34 PM "Model one: A spiritual being generates and recreates at will pictures of space, time, motion, etc. and views them." I don't think I missed diddley-squat, Amos. There's enough unstated premises buried in your 'Model one' to take up paragraphs of disclaimers & explication! Just because you can state the linguistic framework in one sentence, it does not follow that the concept is 'simple'. As soon as you can clarify WHAT a "spiritual being" might be, where their 'will' resides, and how one can 'generate' anything, we can discuss it. My poor 'matter' made up of lowly, but measurable 'atoms', carefully described in the periodic table and whose structure can be manipulated, is at LEAST something whose interactions can be predicted. Spiritual entities who move thru...ummm..non-space? and 'see' material things so as to help their material bases commune with other material in non-material modes using no discernable energy and.....and... and you call THAT a simpler concept? It boggles the... uhhh... neural synapses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:30 PM Because it doesn't explain the most important event of the system, when stimuli becomes viewing and understanding. The idea that you can make a S-R system, no matter how complex, appreciate anything, or genuinely perceive anything, is absurd. Perception is not in the same class of phenomenon as packets, or chatrges traveling through nerves and firing neurons. At the end of that string of stimuli, something different occurs. THat's why. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Paul Burke Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:15 PM there is no true "I" in the system And...? You're begging the question, by assuming that a "real" experiencer has to be non- material. What do you mean by a 'true "I"', and why can't it be based on neurones? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: katlaughing Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:01 PM Billdarlin'...just remember Mudcat already has one Willie-O! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM Bill D: Boy, did you miss the point in my last post. There are two models in play here. Model one: A spiritual being generates and recreates at will pictures of space, time, motion, etc. and views them. Model two: A complex series of traces gets written during moments of experience to some sort of neuron- or cell-based holographic memory system on an automatic basis. These images are stimulated into re-generating by an impulse from some other complex sub-system which gives orders based on stimulus-response patterns which are in turn activated by language or by environmental inputs, and then this regenerated holographic complex of synaptic impulses somehow gets decoded into perception which is then viewed by a separate "perceive" subsystem which is erroneously considered by itself to be a self. Despite this delusory misappreciation of the real mechanistic nature, this deluded subcomponent continues to refer to itself as an I and call up more concatenations of complex re-firings of old neuronic patterns in order to think it is actually looking at pictures of past memories, but this is not the case since there is no true "I" in the system, just lots of complex sub-assemblies firing off charges at each other to create the illusion of an individual. William, spare me!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:26 PM ?? Huh?? seldom have I seen so many linguistic metaphors assembled to say in a classic of circular reasoning,"if I think it, my own thinking justifies how I thunk it." " insidiously matter-centric .....wow! Sounds like 'matter' is a sneaky plot to undermine easy use of vacuous terminology. Oughta be an investigation! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM The "betrayed by tricky complex mechanisms" model of inacurrate memory strikes me as insidiously matter-centric, and unduly complicated. Why do you have to rig up so many reflecting surfaces and suspend so many modules of carbom-derived particle suspension nebular accretions to explain an individual and his memory or failure thereof? Doesn't that seem like a sorta rococo and roundabout chain to describe something that is much simpler? Sure, people change the pictures around when remembering things. Hell, they make the pictures in the first place, so they have evetry right. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: john f weldon Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM I know this is major thread drift, but the people who were interested in the Giant Cow Heads will probably look here when this pops up to the top. The Concordia Prof mentioned in the article wrote to Parmalat, which currently owns the heads, and offered to store them if they were planning to trash them. They replied that they wished to hang on to them, with the possibility of someday resurrecting them. The Cows May Rise Again!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Paul Burke Date: 10 Sep 08 - 03:37 AM Memory is a far more complex thing than a simple record of events. It's been shown that people continue (unconsciously) to revise memories long after the event occurred, and that these revisions can be radical. It's not questioning the intensity of an experience to ask whether what caused the intense feeling was the actual narrative that the memory provides. I'd go so far as to say that you don't know what you experienced until you've recounted it to yourself in a way that makes a story of the chaotic impressions that your senses (especially sick, disturbed or drugged senses) provide. In a vision of oneself lying in bed, you must remember that you know what you look like- you've looked in mirrors from infanthood on (otherwise how did you know you were looking at yourself?). When the interpretive loop is disrupted (as in the out-of-body simulation experiments cited above), sensations can appear to be located externally to the body, so the memory re- interprets them as events that happened to a "feeling entity" remote from the body, and recreates the scene to make sense of this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Peace Date: 10 Sep 08 - 12:15 AM I shall look forward to it, Bill. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:31 PM Hi Kids: I used to have a dream for about 15 years that had the body rise up to a light shown through the window of a large hall. It took a number of years to see what was inside as the body would slam back down to the bed with a jolt. When I was able to look through the open window after a number of years what I perceived was an empty room filled with torches on the wall. Once that happened, I stopped having the dream. Another instance was me flying out of body in three dimensional technicolor around the POM Bakery here in Montreal at approximately 2p.m. So incredibly real. A one time event. I have had people tell me they saw me in two different places at the same time... Quantum Physics tells us that these things are commonplace in a sub-atomic world... The next real frontier is the mind... I suggest you check out Masuru Emoto's "The Hidden Messages in Water.." bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 09 Sep 08 - 09:04 PM Bernadette was there with her sister and another girl...I misspoke when I suggested more than one saw things...in fact she tried to show them, but they could see nothing. Peace...I'll respond somehow tomorrow. I'm pooped. Suffice it to say for now that I *never* doubt that someone had the intense experience they say they had. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:48 PM All I can say is there is an awful lot to know, and very little really known, about the particular dynamics of this pan-dimensional, or non-local mode of being these guys are talking about. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: GUEST,Jaze Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:45 PM I was brought up Catholic and know the story of Lourdes. There was one ONE visionary at Lourdes- Bernadette. Who was the other one I missed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: olddude Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:43 PM Peace A friend of mine lost his mother in law, I never met her, never talked to her. I told him something she said to me out of the blue it was not only right on he said I could not have known that, noone could have known that. It is an angel I think and it was a very good message for his wife. I don't ask for it, just accept it ... and before my near death it never happened to me , afterwords it happens somewhat frequent. I drew a sketch of his wifes childhood house in detail , she was blown away... I could not have known where his wife grew up or anything about the house but it is what I saw and heard. Like I said can't speak just listen then get thrown out cause you are not to be there just allowed for a moment. I hear you bro, no explaining needed on this one for me. By the way, I can't believe I am talking about it, I never do ... interesting maybe it is for the good. God works in his way not ours |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Peace Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:22 PM Hey, Bill. I gotta say that when I apply Occam's Razor to the situation, the simplest explanation is that there IS another world that some people do access--maybe a place where time works a bit differently. Where senses tell us to ignore logic because the logic we grew up with in this place doesn't really apply there. BM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Peace Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:17 PM Jaysus, Bill. I know what you mean. BUT, no one here is 'asserting' for anyone else. Most of us have learned to keep quiet about our experiences. (We know about Salem.) I would never evey think of trying to convince anyone else that me experiences are real or true. They are to me, and that's all. With regard to the paranormal, metaphysics, etc., I am as much a skeptic as are you. The things I experienced were neither of those things. I have known (for myself) ever since my grandfather told me in a dream that he was going to die soon that there is some mechanism for information to be transferred from one person to another that doesn't involve the phone or spoken word. I could never prove that to you, nor would I try to. (I have the greatest respect for you, Bill. Always have had. And my opinion of you ain't about to change because of this or any other thread. FYI.) Since I was 12--and I'm 60 for a little longer--I have know that there are spirits. Not all of them are nice. I met a bad one in Montreal and 9it was the most 'scared' I have ever been in my life. (I've faced death more than a few times and it didn't scare me the way the 'spirit' did. Some 'good' angels came to help me. I encountered another lost soul in NYC. My dog was aware of its presence. Hair on her spine was straight up and the room had a chill in it. I have a daughter who can be in the presence of people and know instinctively who the people are she should avoid. She was the gal who brought the three objects to her mom. When the phone rang i9n Windsor, Ontario, I KINEW it was a call to say my grandmother had died. I mentioned that to Eddie as I was going to the phone. Even kinew before I got to the phone who was calling with the info0. On some calls, even as the pager goes, I know what the call is and whether there will be dead at the scene. I don't have those tjhoughts when people are just injured. I could prove NONE of this to you. But because I am not trying to convince you that anything I have just said is 'true' or 'real', I have no investment in others' beliefs about what I have said. It's not that I don't care, really. It's that I know, and in knowing I find no need to convince others. That make sense to you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ed T Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM olddude Thanks for explaining that. Makes sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: olddude Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM One time I had the experience of seeing my long dead father in law. He was building a cabin as he said for the "wife". Well that is exactly what he would be doing because he had one in life and she loves it. Told me my uncle Dan was taking care of my old lab so not to worry. Then he told me the cabin still needs a lot of work but his nephews Jim and Charlie were helping him. Then I was told go back you do not belong here not your time. I could not speak just listen. Nothing unususal could be a nice dream right. I never heard those nephew names before ever, he was a quiet man rarely spoke of family if ever. I asked my wife, she never heard of them. She asked my mother in law, she got really quiet and said, they were his nephews who were killed in WWII. They were very close to Dick, always helped him on the farm. Blew us away, she knows he never spoke of them to anyone. That is only 1 small example. It happens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ebbie Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:26 PM Old dude, I agree with your exhortation that it is not necessary to fear. The only times that I have really felt fear in connection with "things of the spirit" stemmed from live persons. I'm not sure what the thing is that one connects to that emanates from the occasional live person but whatever it is it can be downright nasty. Those are people to stay away from. Far away. ********************************** Bill D, not an out of body experience in any way but I'm going to repeat what I have recounted before, because I simply cannot see how my brain came up with it on its own. It not only felt real to me but I told someone else about it before the outcome was known. I was leafing through LIFE Magazine one morning at 6 o'clock waiting for my sister in law to arrive to pick me up to go to our jobs in Portland. Suddenly, silently, I was enveloped in a chilly blanket/mist/miasma and in the pouty way a previous boyfriend spoke, after our affair ended less than happily, a silent voice scolded me in somethng like: I'm gone. And it's all your doing. I'm not sure he said "gone" or "doing" - it could have been "dead" and "fault". Even at the time I didn't know. When I got into my SIL's car I said, I think Al is dead. She said, Whaaat!/em> That evening Al's cousin came over and told us that Al's father had died very early that morning. He too had a pouty voice, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: olddude Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:01 PM Well in regard to Jane, they never scared me and should you either Jane. Accept it as a gift however way you wish to view it. Nothing will hurt you it never has to me no matter how anyone wishes to interpret. One thing that I have noticed take it for whatever it is worth or not worth, if you can talk to the whatever, it is most likely a dream. OBE for me, you can only listen not speak, you don't belong there. That is the difference for what happened to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Amos Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:54 PM In my model, visual capabilities are ultimately resident in the spiritual being (perceive and intend, remember?), Blindness, however, is both an optical and an individual issue. Optical blindness has no bearing on what happens visually in an OOB, but the individual's ability to see varies wildly depending on his state of being. The variables in state of being are things like general awareness, emotional level, personal habits of ignoral and putting up screens, and so on. This is one of the factors behind the wide range of dubbing phenomena that tale place. The decision to "not see" is a typical response to too much confusion or more emotional or physical force than one can stand to perceive; the easy solution is to overlay something more comfortable to think, while ignoring the real motion around one. This also explains the Republican National Convention. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:35 PM C'mon, Peace... after YEARS you should realize that what 'rankles' me is not simple belief, but rather careless reasoning and, worse, beliefs held with little reasoning at all. "..think what you want. These folks will, too. It shouldn't be an issue. " It is not a case of my 'beliefs' vs. other's... I mostly have few beliefs. I discuss what believing is about. Remember, this thread was started by Jane, who wanted some perspective on what OBEs might involve, and specifically asked me how she might read varying opinions. They worried her, and I am suggesting that she need NOT worry too much, as there is much evidence for natural causes. But it IS an issue when beliefs affect how the world is run....and bad habits of thinking partially due to faulty reasoning and improbable beliefs are causing a great deal of havoc in the world. (my classic example is suicide bombers who 'believe' they are going to Paradise.) Just because belief in OBEs is not as seriously relevant, it does not follow that careful scrutiny of the possibilities is useless or silly or somehow 'insulting' to those who believe in them. I want folks to know as much as possible about the world, how it works, and their place in it...but I want them to know when their logic and reasoning are careless, too! People in various circumstances believe a HUGE amount of stuff...some of it absolutely incompatible with other beliefs. Someone needs to help sort out why this is and how to cope. The real problem is that it is WORK to get a handle on what is really involved. I have a basic education in it,,,Wolfgang can cite details and studies. But, as we see, anyone can just declare they don't like or agree with my ramblings and assert things like "Oh, YOU just 'believe' in science, and my belief is just as valid as yours.." ...and if they can make statements like that, they don't get it, and there's little I can do. They WISH to believe in these arcane ideas,,,from Tarot & Astrology to precognition & OBEs..etc.. All I can do is insert an occasional reminder of other possibilities into the mix....as Max says, these threads may be here for years, and this is my BLOG. "The burden of proof is on the assertor" "From false premises, anything follows." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: olddude Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM No not really, the thread is about OBE, Just wanted to give my account of what happened. I really don't care if anyone believes it or not. I am always interested in what others saw or experienced the same thing. Like the watch situation. That is why, don't care about the belief thing that is mine you see and others are most allowed to believe or not. Makes no difference to me. What is interesting is others that been through the same. There are not many that I know but all seem to have a lot of common experiences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ed T Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM olddude, I am curious? Why do you post, or read the posts...opinions, experiences, beliefs, speculations...and such... of others if you really feel as you state. My guess is you likely really do care....but then this is only my belief, from what I see... and from my life experiences. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: olddude Date: 09 Sep 08 - 04:14 PM Ya know what, I could really care less what anyone else thinks or doesn't. I know what happened to me, I also know what is true for me. Everyone has there own path. You see the difference between me and others is I do not put them down for their belief's to each their own. I could care less. The thread was about OBE I been there, told what happened to me. Blew the minds of my docs and I leave it at that. I spent my life in math, x's and Y's but some things cannot be solved through calculus or physics. As for Lourds. Yes she came, and yes there are healings and the account of Lords and majagori are real to me. My beliefs so whatever you think I could care less actually |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ed T Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:20 PM I am not really sure that Partridge's link actually shows sight as we know it. Seeing objects you can feel on your body, and putting them in different thought perspectives is not compelling and is likely quite explainable. IMO, spiritual experiences can likely also be excluded. Aboriganial sweat lodges (and similar ceremonies) have shown similar out of body and "spiritual" (and visual-distortion) experiences. It seems over-extending to expect a scientist to explain "scientifically" what someone says they personally experienced. The most they could do is speculate from known research. But, IMO this alone does not make an expressed personable experience any more scientifically (or otherwise) credible. It would likely be difficult to conduct a credible scientific experiment on much of what has been described from the past. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Peace Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM Why do the beliefs of others--beliefs they hold based on personal experience--rankle you so? Science has given NO answers. Nor has Occam. Bill, think what you want. These folks will, too. It shouldn't be an issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:05 PM "I think we can say that there is no non-metaphysical explanation ..." Ok, fine.... I've said what I can say. I didn't exactly hold my breath that I'd get lots of agreement....but at least it's on record. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: CarolC Date: 09 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM If the only way someone can explain away the many, many cases of people seeing things their corporeal bodies could not see while having an OBE, is to say that they weren't there, so they don't know, I would say that occam's razor is definitely not on their side. The person who had the story about the wing nut said that nobody there knew there was a broken wing nut until after the OBE experience, when that person told the other people about it. Trying to say the person heard something being talked about by others when that person has reported that nobody else knew about the broken wing nut is making things unnecessarily complicated. And since no scientific explanation has been forthcoming, I think we can say that there is no non-metaphysical explanation for the cases when people see and report things they could not have seen with their corporeal bodies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Partridge Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM here Blind people havind an NDE can see NDE Near death experience Pat x |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ed T Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:57 AM Could the blind see through out of body experiences? Would be interesting to see a valid science test on this claim. http://www.religionen.at/irsilverb01.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: bobad Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:43 AM Hey maybe that's the answer to biLL's question: Subject: BS: secret terrorist killing program From: GUEST,number 6 - PM Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:10 AM Sorry to avert attention away from the election carnival here ... but do any of you folks have any idea what the hell Woodward talking about here ... http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/09/09/iraq.secret/index.html biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Donuel Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:39 AM While the subject is dangerous, the expereince is not. A close friend of mine was robbed by two men with a shot gun in his apartment. I heard about it right before bedtime. With my tired eyes closed I saw myself flying over the city to his apartment and hovering below the ceiling. I saw both men's faces and heard their voices. For this expereince to have any validy to the actual event it would have to be independant of time. It would have to be independant of gravity and a host of other fundamental testbook laws. As a hypnotist in 1979 who had been in the papers for making various academicly subversive remarks, a polite and kind faced Navy Captain came to my office shortly after my experience of witnessing a robbery from above. He told me he was with Naval Intelligence and that he was looking for people who had remote viewing talents. He asked me if I could do anything like that or if I knew other people who could. The coincidence of this magnitude set off alarms in my head. I felt nothing good would would come from diving headlong into military intelligence experiments. I lied about my having no experience as well as knowing no one else who had remote expereinces as well. After reading the Washingtom Post about the sad conflicted expereinces of some of the remote viewers, I am certain I had made the right decision to lie and walk away from a fascinating job. Saying no to certain people is not without punishment. Retribution included mysteriously losing my office lease. The 8 figure budget for military remote viewer projects was reported to have lasted over 10 years. Certainly the military has wing nuts and has done crazy things but the pursuit of psychic warefare was not taken lightly. The phenomenon is still worthy of exploration of cognitive abilities and not be dismissed off hand because people like Bill (who can''t even see atmosphereic phenomenoa before his eyes) think its a wing nut notion. TTake your wing nut rhetoric and shove it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Bill D Date: 09 Sep 08 - 11:20 AM I see my point about Lourdes was not made well enough. It is not about purported healings, it is about whether the young girl 'saw' the "Lady" at all.....and not about whether she was lying. Healings are a totally different matter. Ther indeed may have been some cases where strong 'belief' aided in recoveries thru bio-feedback mechanisms...etc. Then it's a matter of deciding about 'miracles'. Wingnuts... Carol, that's a story: a report...from one person. I was not there. I do not KNOW whether it was a lucky guess or...perhaps he 'heard', while he was unconcious, two orderlies who knew there was a broken wing-nut discussing fixing it. I don't know whether anyone investigated that sort of possibility: I just DO know that people can sometimes hear things while unconcious and 'recall' it later without knowing why. I am not CLAIMING this is what happened, I am explaining that, because such things DO happen, it is wise to not assume OOBs as the only answer. The point is, that I CAN imagine how "In the absence of a non-corporeal entity, how else would one explain someone seeing a broken wing nut...". "Non-corporeal entities" are not the only possible answer. Now...those who assert the existence of such things need to explain to me...and others... how this might work, much as I offered a possible alternative explanation which HAS been described & documented. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: bobad Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:53 AM Yes John, as 3D billboards they were way ahead of their time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: john f weldon Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM Curious fact... ...when the dairy branched out with other "cattle" products, Elmer became the symbol of Elmer's Glue! I kid you not. Poor guy. If this is straying a bit from the original thread, let me point out that those cow heads are definitely "out of body"! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences From: Ebbie Date: 09 Sep 08 - 10:35 AM Hey, hey, hey, cows? Elsie and Elmer? Elmer is "cattle" but not "cow". |
