BS: Out of body experiences

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Paul Burke
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM

Pat's not a common name for a cow- though it could be an Irish bull.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:48 AM

Please, don't tell me there's a picture of a giant cow pat somewhere?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: bobad
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 07:47 AM

Nice article John.

Those cow heads are part of the collective childhood memories of many of us Montrealers. It sure was a summertime treat stopping there for an ice cream served on those sugar cones.

This is where the milk from those cows went: Giant Milk Bottle

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:59 AM

John: YEAH!

(That is a cool article and I remember those signs.)

Man, what a wonderful surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Stu
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:50 AM

I thought about expressing my opinion on this thread, but have decided not to.

I occasionally get dreams where I'm flying and can actually control my altitude to soar over trees etc. Unfortunately I only get these when I'm relaxed and seeing as I live in a state of permanent anxiety they don't happen as often as I'd like.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 06:32 AM

Okay, Peace and Jeri, I can see you thought I was shootin the breeze. But as I promised, here it is...

Giant Cow Heads

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: John O'L
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 05:47 AM

Unfortunately Bill has only ever said that it might be thus explained, and I don't think anyone is likely to trick him into claiming any more than that, so you'll never nail him. Give up.

Similarly, olddude's knowledge of the broken wingnut would seem to be a stopper. No-one is going to try to explain that away, except possibly by claiming it just might be explained some day by science we have not yet become aware of.

Liz, cats can do that. It's well known.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 03:15 AM

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio...."

Including why my speech marks " and the at sign @ have suddenly exchanged places on my keyboard... when I press the @ I get " and vice versa.

Mind you, the cat has just sat on the keyboard so that might be one explaination...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Sep 08 - 12:00 AM

In the absence of a non-corporeal entity, how else would one explain someone seeing a broken wing nut that his body couldn't see and that nobody else knew about?

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM

As for Lourdes, the issue is two-fold. The healing when it has occurred, a placebo effect at best given the hit or miss frequency, and the attribution.

There equally dramatic effects of people being healed by reading a newspaper confirming the drug they thought they were taking was effective, and in one case un-healing again when those findings were refuted the following week.

All this tells me is that thought can induce change in structure, sometimes.

But the fact that it can do so at all says something important about attention and the relationship between brain, mind, and spirit. Oh, except that you believe all spiritual phenomena are projections by the brain. Hmmm....I wonder who's considering that? Must be another part of the brain thinking about the part that is projecting the...this gets pretty complex, don't you think?

As for sir Willie, the hardest thing in applying his rule is to divorce it from our pre-existing assumptions. If you stand the two models outside our preconceived assumptions, and tell each one to explain thought, I would argue mine comes up the simpler, by far. The amount of mirrors and by-pass circuits you have to use would make Rube Goldberg look like Steve Jobs' design genius.

A


A

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 10:52 PM

Amos, you DO have a way with words. It is quite a feat, making Occam sound like he is on YOUR side....but as usual, you manage it by misrepresenting what *I* have claimed....a classic 'straw man' premise.
Boiled down, all those 'billions' refer simply to one fact... that the complexity of the brain allows it to fool us at times. That IS a simpler explanation than inventing things like ummm.."IS-ness" and "something that can BE separate from the body" (soul?)then assuming that once you have named this (entity?) you can then just refer to it as if it has substance...no, wait...non-substance,...that is non-substance with existential import!

*Whoosh*!! William (shall we just be folkies and call him Willie-O?)..would really have fun with that one. Then there all the other concepts required to continue explicating the properties of this non-corporeal 'entity' which goes out and finds wing-nuts and reports back on them to the..ummm..corporeal blob which might be interested.
...and you say *I* 'multiply entities beyond necessity'!

Oh, and science certainly IS dealing with "...the world renowned placebo effect, the extraordinarily high ratio of psychosomatic to bio-mechanical disease..." etc, plus how bio-feedback can be useful in healing...(which sure LOOKS like meta-physics until we see how it works! Methinks you are cherry-picking your examples.

Remote 'seeing'? Finding wing-nuts or anything else "that the body can't see" is interesting...should be investigated. Can cases be compared, or are they all just interesting coincidences? How accurate were the 'seeings'? How well was the REPORT of the remote seeing documented? I am willing to look at such accomplishments...but NOT willing to say, "Oh wow!" just because someone makes a claim. As you might guess, I could have been in trouble when those two girls at Lourdes told about seeing the Virgin Mary. We skeptics have to careful who we dispute.


BTW...you never did say whether you got the point about Lourdes.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 09:05 PM

That New Scientist article also doesn't explain how someone could see a broken wing nut that their body couldn't see and that nobody else knew about.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:32 PM

It's always the same thing... Giant Cow Heads! Whatever happened to fuchsia alien hybrid grasshopper people!

If I ever have one of these, I want to choose the body I get wind up in. That's all I wanted to say...

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:30 PM

Maybe something of interest in this web site?


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12531-outofbody-experiences-are-all-in-the-mind.html

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:26 PM

I knew you were gonna say that, John!

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM

All I can say is.... ...Giant Cow Heads! Cryptic?? Tommorrow the meaning will, perhaps, be clear!

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM

AMong other reasons for claiming William, this model also provides an avenue of explanation for a number of things that phsyical science won't consider trying to explain, including the world renowned placebo effect, the extraordinarily high ratio of psychosomatic to bio-mechanical disease (estimated as high as 70% in some papers), the range of intuition, the instances of empathic communication over distance instantaneously, sometimes including hard factual data, the range of phenomena described as NDEs and OBEs, the interesting effects of positive and negative communications on the immune system, the role of pictures in physical wellbeing and the effectiveness of guided imagery, the occasionally documented instances of remote viewing well above random chance accuracy, and some bits and pieces of love, poetry and religious appetities.

Your model accounts, so far, for none of these things.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:12 PM

I have submitted a few times that William is fulla crap. That's the simplest explanation for his postulate.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 08:00 PM

My rejoinder, Bill, is that it is the neurological model that insists on more complexity than is needed, compared to the postulation of a simple unit that is aware of being aware, the Thou behind all the computational complexity. This unit has no mechanical attributes but it has two attributes of ability -- to perceive and to intend or postulate. Thus it is the seat of understanding, communication, and the spectrum of perception by appreciation of the frequencies and patterns emanated by parts of the brain.

This one postulated component, with its simple abilities, explains as much as all the "brain is terribly complex, billions of neurons, billions to the tenth of [possible, unknown, combinations, and a great deal about it we don't yet know...".

Seems by far the more direct and elegant explanation is that one Is, and one has a body. Lots of complexity in the body, several millions of types of molecular compounds, DNA to the trillions, the complexity, layer upon layer, is endless.

Thus, I submit that William is on my side.




A

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

...or even A non metaphysical explanation for this phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:58 PM

Yes, but I would like to see the non-metaphysical "explanation" for how people could see things that their bodies could not.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:55 PM

Carol...you are simply missing the point. "perfectly good explanations" does not mean 'the right & true answer' it means explanations that can be defended logically and by various scientific tests. Yes...that means "could be wrong"... but science is full of perfectly good theories and explanations that need further examination to SEE if they are excellent candidates for 'true'. You & Amos and many others do not 'seem' to wish to admit that 'something you experienced' could be misinterpreted. You may say you admit this, but most discussions seem to proceed as if it should not BE doubted. It is this seeming 'assumption' that I keep trying to put into perspective.

The point is: If several explanations 'could' be correct, then any one of them could also be false...and often, they are so mutually inconsistent that no more than one COULD be true.

You must remember- I spent many hours being drilled by professional philosophers in not only what passes for 'truth' and 'evidence', but also in how to use language to discuss it. I am trying to do some of that in a forum where not everyone sees the reasons behind my nit-picking.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

and you see God is a God of Love. He lets us choose our own path. He is not the God of the TV guys who ask for money or the other corrupt people of the cloth. It breaks his heart, He is a just and loving God. A light in total darkness, a peace like noone could know, a love like no one could know. We all choose to be born. Like a soldier some succeed, some fail, but everyone is a hero for trying. Many people have it all wrong. It is not a God of vengence
but of love. The belief that there is not a God is a religion also. Each has their right to choose their beliefs. It is given, not forced but the knowledge of the existance of God cannot be so easily discounted when you are on the receiving side of it. It is a slap in the face that says, you were never alone, you only thought you were, for me, no argument is needed. I been there, I heard I saw and I accept

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:40 PM

When I threw the PE, I was in a complete trackton unit due to my back. When I was out of body I noticed one of the wing nuts that held the traction together on the top was broken off. When I got better and they took the unit down, sure enough there it was. Now noone could have seen it. It was at the top of the Unit overhead of my bed. I couldn't have seen it before hand. It was setup when I entered the hospital. Just some kind of freak occurance. couple that with telling the docs what the did to me .. another freak occurance. Coupled with me not wanting to come back. It was wondeful why would I come back I was in complete piece and no pain. My grandfather said it is not your time ... woosh back into a world of pain ..

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:36 PM

I have to go. Work calls. Hey, Bill, I'll see you in my dreams. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM

I agree that there are perfectly good explanations for OBEs. But science ain't got any answers. To say it's something synaptic or electro-chemical is no different than saying "We the scientific community believe . . . ." Neither do they have proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:31 PM

The assertion was that there are perfectly good explanations for out of body experiences that are not metaphysical in nature. I'm not allowed to copy paste, but that was definitely what was said, and a rereading of the thread would show that this is true.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:27 PM

The origin of Lourdes, Amos, was 2 girls claiming to 'see' the Virgin Mary. Since we dare not doubt such visions, we get locked into other stuff that follows...and quite a tourism business as folks follow 'hope'.

....and yeah, the "baseline true state of things" might be 12 dimensions and little blue angels on every shoulder, but I seem not to get all the inputs on my faulty receiver. s'pose my brain's a 2nd? where do I complain? to God?

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

"...the assertion was that there is a biological explanation for everything such people experience.

No, I did NOT assert any such thing. I said there ARE such answers which require fewer hypotheses, and are therefore perfectly good possibilities....

Peace... I forgot to say THIS time, (though not in 27 previous posts), that I do NOT reject anyone's personal experience, I only question certain proposed explanations for such experiences!
One had the experience they had!

Whether it was a weird dream, a momentary short circuit of brain synapses...or a real 'spirit' going for a spin without that nuisance of a body, I can't prove either way, but me and Willie of Occam will reserve judgment. One of the side effects of reserving judgment is DOUBT and looking **seriously** at alternatives....and getting accused of **denying** when one is **doubting**.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

There is a world of difference between saying one was healed, and attributes it to Mary, and saying one had an OOB experience, Bill, and I am sure you can sort those differences out for yourself.

There is one commonality though, which is one of the reasons that this whole area is such a tanglefoot. The plasticity of the mind is such that to a large degree, we see what we believe we ought to see. The history of NDEs is replete with tunnels-to-heaven in the Christian mode fgor those of that persuasion, visions of Paradise for Muslims, and for those of a more agnostic bent, just encounters with other beings. I have referred to this phenomenon in several places as "dubbing in", as movie makers do with overlays.

The problem is that a mind under stress, depending on its resilience, flexibility and general "health" will dub in to some degree or other because of stress. Some folks are in such a perpetual state of stress that every car on the road holds an FBI agent or an Alien. Others maintain their perspective until they get a bad knock on the head, and then see childhood friends or stars or something briefly and then recover. It varies completely from person to person but the important point about this is that it happens both to those who are firmly seated inside their skulls, those who are popping out for the first time, and those who move out on a regular basis.

It is therefore not valid to assume that any of those three states (never out, popping out once, or often out of the body) is itself a false perception. There is no more evidence that "inness" is the baseline true state of things than that "being out with one tendril stuck in the center of the brain" is the baseline experience.

Howja like _them_ apples, Horation??? :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

I don't really care who thinks what about my own experiences with this stuff as long as no one decides to tell me I didn't experience what I experienced--for whatever reasons. I've read about synaptic lag in the response to electro-chemical stimuli; the thinking part getting ahead of the actuality; the--and Bill, none of that convinced me any more than my experience will convince you. The science side of it is as clearly explained as the metaphysical side. They can't duplicte it. IMO, the burden of proof you seek shold be found in the science you prefer, and that's fine.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:41 PM

But the assertion wasn't just skepticism, the assertion was that there is a biological explanation for everything such people experience. So if that's the case, I would like to see the biological explanation for how people could see things that their corporeal bodies could not (other than saying that it hasn't been proven that they do... that's not an explanation, it's a denial).

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM

Amos... "I have provided evidence in earlier discussions ..."

yes, I know... I read them. I have spent 50 years reading such things. There are quite good reasons why I am not convinced.

Why can YOU see all the good reasons why certain religious tenets and 'experiences' (like Lourdes) are not acceptable, yet buy into these, which are only different in superficial ways? Because you 'had' one?

(I was going to say very little...I was asked directly to suggest other answers)

Boy, am I grumpy today!

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:19 PM

Jane.. explanations are there if you look for them. Whether you accept them is another matter.

I entered "out of body" and "skeptic" in Google and got a whole list.

this was one of the first

The brain is a VERY complex organ with billions of neurons and billions of memories stored...in varying degrees of completeness, and when not under waking, conscious control, can re-combine and activate all sorts of 'experiences' which seem hard to account for. You can either group OOB stuff with dreams, or decide to create a theoretical realm of dubious substance which has a more 'interesting' sounding set of answers.
There IS no 'proof', one way or another, in these debates, but by choosing the more elaborate metaphysical,OOB type answers, you commit yourself to a set of premises that gets harder & harder to explain, until you, (as seen above) must resort to "I don't know how it works, but I can't imagine how "that" could happen unless it was real!"
A 'brain' answer is not as much fun, but it is being answered better every day by experts who study these things and gradually work out the electro-chemical reactions involved.

In order to consider all possibilities, you have to read all the theories on both sides... I HAVE read the metaphysical side, including the sort of thing Carol C. mentions. Obviously, I am not convinced by those who relate stories about 'seeing' things. That is what being a skeptic means...not denying....just doubting until I see proof...and claims require proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:13 PM

Yeah, it can scare th ebejeezus out of you when it goes off on a sudden like that. And the dive back in is a fairly normal response if its unexpected. It's what you kow.

Bill, you are being disingenuous. I have provided evidence in earlier discussions on this topic of the kind of thing Carol mentions, of people seeing things while outside that they could not see from their bodies.

However, I don't want to disturb your tranquil slumbers; they will be disturbed on their own soon enough. If that does happen, find a place you really like somewhere, and wait there until you get oriented. No sense rushing into things.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:05 PM

I had one. Audible SNAP...and there I was, floating around. SCARED the crap out of me. Dived headfirst for my poor body. DO NOT want to do it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Joybell
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM

A month ago my heart stopped long enough for me to lose consciousness. I have the absolute conviction that the Self that is me went away. A shift in time and space. It didn't see anything. Just deep blackness. I have this understanding that Self is unable to see, hear, feel or reason. It was quite unlike a dream. That part came back, but over the next 24 hours I had the feeling Self would go away again and not come back. I kept myself awake and watchful all night. My heart stopped many times during that 24 hours -- fortunatly also when it was being monitored. I now have a pacemaker. I still feel a bit disconected. Not fearful. Just aware of layers in my mind.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: skipy
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:36 PM

O/k I don't believe in this sort of thing, however, back in 1967 I was working at a large manor house with over 70 horse, in Somerset,long story short I was kicked in the head by a pony whilst rounding a few up (o/k explains a few things) I have to this day a vivid memory of being above the field watching people turn up & carry my "somewhat lifeless body" away & did wake up in Minehead hospital.
My right ear (point of impact) is still thicker to this day. I figure that my mind has put the pictures together to fill the gap.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Jane of 'ull
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:35 PM

Bill D could you tell me where these explanations are? I am a skeptic nowadays and always look for the logical explanation. I would be relieved to find it had a neurological basis or whatever, it would make me feel more safe I guess.

However, I have to admit that these experiences started not long after my nephew died, over 8 years ago. On one 'flight', I recall trying to 'look' for him, but failed to find him. Also, the other night I came out of body 3 times, and the final time, I sensed evil so came back in. I've never experienced that before then.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:27 PM

I've not yet seen anyone explain how someone could report things they couldn't have seen with their corporeal bodies from the perspective of where the corporeal bodies were at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 05:26 PM

Why would we be waiting for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM

(if anyone was waiting for me to weigh in on this thread, I have been avoiding it because you mostly know what I think.
I am a skeptic because there are **perfectly good explanations** for these experiences that do not require postulating metaphysical happenings.
I have had dreams & experiences that are similar...flying & such...but there is NO reason to believe that any non-corporeal part of me can leave the corporeal parts of me.)


further, deponent sayeth not.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:22 PM

The Guest post is gone now. What did it say?

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Amos
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM

IMAGINATION

"Imagination has always had powers of
resurrection that no science can match."

                Ingrid Bengis

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: olddude
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

guest above was me, lost my cookies

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

I no longer wear wrist watches because they have that happen to them. Time goes all funny and sooner or later the watch just stops.

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: john f weldon
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

I had an out-of-kayak experience once. One minute I was in the kayak, the next I felt myself "floating" behind it. When I told the wife about it, she said "That was real, you dickweed! You're all soaked and muddy! Am I supposed to drive you home in the car like that?"

It's tough living with a skeptic!

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:40 PM

Doodling in photoshop is like a recreational OBE vehicle for me.
Last night I went here... http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/stringtheory413.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM

Watches go dead on me too. I still have several wrist watches long ago put back in their cases.

It just occurs to me that it has been years, decades even, since I've given a watch a try. Now that I'm older/old I wonder if my condition has changed?

Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Sep 08 - 12:22 PM

While the subject is dangerous, the expereince is not.

A close friend of mine was roobed by two men with shot gun in his apartment.
I heard about it right before bedtime. With my tired eyes closed I saw myself flying over the city to his apartment and hovering below the ceiling. I saw both men's faces and heard their voices.
For this expereince to have any validy to the actual event it would have to be independant of time. It would have to be independant of gravity and a host of other fundamental testbook laws.

As a hypnotist who had been in the papers making various academicly subversive remarks, a polite and kind faced Navy Captain came to my office shortly after my experience of witnessing a robbery from above. He told me he was with Naval Intelligence and that he was looking for people who had remote viewing talents. He asked me if I could do anything like that or if I knew other people who could.

The coincidence of this magnitude sent off klaxon bells in my head.
I felt nothing good would would come from diving headlong into military intelligence experiments.

I lied about my having no experience as well as knowing no one else who had remote expereinces as well.

After reading the Washingtom Post about the sad conflicted expereinces of some of the remote viewers, I am certain I had made the right decision to lie and walk away from a fascinating job.

The budget for military remote viewers was reported to have lasted about 10 years.


If you want to do it, think of a spiral stream made of time. No airplanes no sea kayaks...You are all you need.