BS: Enough, already with Palin!

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM

bumper sticker

VOTE for Sarah Palin
__she's as smart__
_AS THE PRESIDENT_

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 07:37 AM

Bush II won because the Democrats put up candidates who were almost as hopeless as Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:55 AM

Well, it is kind of hard to see when you can't stand the guy yourself, isn't it?

What about the candidates people vote against? Does personality have anything to do with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Sep 08 - 12:32 AM

I think it can sometimes be personalities. I think that was definitely the case with Kennedy and Reagan, and to a small extent with Bush II and possibly Clinton, but I don't think for a minute that people voted for either Nixon, Carter, Ford, or Bush I because of their personalities.

Also, the power that wedge issues can have, I think, can overshadow any considerations of the candidates' personalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:09 PM

Any one of those three locations is really choice, so does it matter? I would like nothing better than to go sailboarding in Arizona on a sunny day when the wind is up.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:08 PM

Is that "waterfront property in Arizona" On Lake Havasu, Lake Powell or Lake Meade?

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:01 PM

True, Ebbie, but in the case alluded to: "Someone in the group overheard a snippet and exclaimed, Oh, that's a good one!"

In other words, whoever it was did not realize that someone else didn't want to hear that particular song. They just were reminded of the song, so they played it.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:41 PM

"And danged if they didn't sing them both. Said musician and I just looked helplessly at each other." Eb

"That is a great lesson. Each of us has a strong opinion that might not be shared by others. You may feel helpless because others do not share in it, but they are not required to be swayed by any thought but their own." Ron

This is a little thing, Ron, but I will point this out: At a party when someone says they don't like a particular song, the polite person does not turn around and sing that particular song. Unless they expect the other person to leave the room.

Not a big thing, as I said, but it is the premise I posed.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 07:01 PM

Ron-
If you really believe that Bush won the past two elections based on principles, I have some waterfront property in Arizona you might be interested in.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:53 PM

As opposed to paleontology?

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:24 PM

Yo, Amos,

I heard that Sarah is going to start a new church called the "Church of Palintology, Sanctifed" so ya' might wanta check it out and get in on the ground floor...

***g***

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM

Little Hawk is right about the inclination to make political decisions based upon personalities as being implicit.

People invariably explain their positions in rational terms, but that's not necessarily how they arrive at said decisions.

For every one of us, our choice of candidate is based upon a combination of factors, including stated positions on issues and our confidence that the person in question is capable of, and truly intent upon, acting upon those positions. Our perceptions of personality factors has everything to do with how seriously we take a candidate's ability and honesty. The talk about issues is worth nothing if the person can't or won't stand behind his/her positions.

Also, of course, among individual citizens, the relative weight given to rational vs emotional factors varies quite widely. And when I observe large numbers of voters being so easily swayed by the most specious political commercials, I have serious doubts that many individuals among the electorate are giving serious thought to this deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

Dang, talk about yer CHANGE, man, that is serious CHANGE!!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:39 PM

Hey, listen, ya'll...

Talkin' about Sarah Palin, regardless of one's party affiliation or how they plan to vote, is a good thing... I would be4 very concerned if someone who is unknown to 99% of the population were chosen to run for VP and nop one said a word... That would be very scarey...

With that said, word on the street is that Playboy has offered the big bucks to her for a photo shoot if she and McCain lose... Personally, I'd rather see her do it if they win... I mean, Playboy has never had a VP centerfold...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM

Don - Their loyalty to the candidate's persona is implicit. That is established first, and THEN they talk about the issues that the candidate enunciates as his issues. What else would they tend to talk about once they've decided they like that candidate? The fact that they have decided they like him is obvious, and it's crucial to their assessment of him (or her).

You hear a lot of stuff...but in real life (3D) you tend to hear mostly stuff from other people who think much the same way you do, because those are the people you tend to hang out with, because you like them since they think the way you do and you have stuff in common with them. ;-) You enjoy talking with them. You don't spend a lot of time talking with people whose whole view on life and politics is very divergent from your own.

That's why you keep hearing what you're hearing. It's popular amongst your own peer group.

But what does pdq hear amongst his friends and associates in 3D life? Something quite different from you, obviously.

At least I would surmise so from the tenor of his comments here. ;-D

Furthermore, there's been a ton of talk on this forum about the various candidates' respective personalities. Man...it never stops! What does this say about the people here (who are a rather intellectual crowd, moreso than average Americans)? I think it says that they are very concerned not just with the issues, but with the (perceived) personalities of the candidates.

Ron - Yup. We have to agree to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM

"I just don't believe that the majority of Americans really vote on the issues, I think their vote is almost entirely based on their assessment of personalities."

I can't buy that. Every person I have talked to and every "man in the street" interview I have heard on radio or television zeroes in on the issues with no mention at all of the candidates' personalities. Some of the issues the interviewees respond to may have me smacking my forehead and screaming, but they're talking issues, not personalities.

It's easy to make theoretical pronouncements from afar, but if you actually talk with people and listen to interviews, it's issues they're tooted up over.

"I'm voting for Obama and Biden because they'll do something about the abyssmal health care system in this country." That's an issue.

"I'm voting for McCain and Palin because they're against abortions and gay marriage." That's an issue.

And that's the sort of thing I keep hearing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:51 PM

Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python skit, the Day Nothing Happened:


http://www.wepsite.de/The%20Day%20Nothing%20Happened.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM

"And danged if they didn't sing them both. Said musician and I just looked helplessly at each other."

That is a great lesson. Each of us has a strong opinion that might not be shared by others. You may feel helpless because others do not share in it, but they are not required to be swayed by any thought but their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:25 PM

"I just don't believe that the majority of Americans really vote on the issues, I think their vote is almost entirely based on their assessment of personalities"

Little Hawk, that is YOUR opinion as an outside observe. My opinion is different. We have to agree to disagree.


"There is some rationality involved in all the above processes, but it pales in comparison to the instinctive emotional behaviour which is the main driving engine behind the process."

Issues drive emotion. The economy often decides which way the lever is pulled. Our emotions certainly factor in to our rational, as it does for everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:16 PM

Perhaps what you should have done, dick, was not have had a thread title with the name "Palin" in it if you don't want people focusing on Sarah Palin.... ;-)

I mean, it's like having a red button on a wall, and beneath the button a sign saying: DON'T PUSH THIS RED BUTTON!

Heh! What's gonna happen?

*****

Ron, I believe that you yourself personally vote on the issues. I believe that some people vote on the issues. I just don't believe that the majority of Americans really vote on the issues, I think their vote is almost entirely based on their assessment of personalities. An election, for them, is a popularity contest between competing personalities who are vying for the position of "Daddy" of the country for the next 4 years. So they look for who they would like as "Daddy" (or "Mommy"?), and that's mainly based on personality.

Now, they always think that they're voting on the issues too, because that's how the human mind works. It thinks it's more rational that it really is. But the process really goes like this:

step # 1: there is an instinctive tribal identification with your favorite tribal group(s)...such as...

"conservatives"
"liberals"
"Democrats"
"Republicans"
"Whites"
"Blacks"
"Hispanics"
"women"
"Christians"
"Gays"
"Anti-Gays"

whatever... (sigh)

step #2: There is a virtually automatic decision made in the subconscious to trust those candidates who are already members of your favorite tribal groups and distrust those who aren't.

(Note: There is an interesting phenomenon often seen which is this - your favorite tribal groups may be groups you are yourself part of...OR they may be groups you're not part of but that you instinctively support because you see them as saintly victims of past persecution...thus certain liberal-minded people who aren't black, for instance, will strongly support any black or female candidate simply because he or she is black...or female.    This might seem like an apparent reversal of tribal identity conscious, but it's still showing the automatic favoring of certain tribal identity groups that occurs in instinctive thinking.)

step #3: You then listen with enthusiasm to the issues expounded by those candidates whom you've already instinctively decided to like...and you tend to believe what they say...while you scoff at and deride those issues expounded by those candidates whom you've already instinctively decided NOT to like.

step #4: Take all of the above, harp on it endlessly, and keep adding more steam to your already established prejudices, and keep getting more and more irritated with the people who see it differently than you do.

And so it goes.

There is some rationality involved in all the above processes, but it pales in comparison to the instinctive emotional behaviour which is the main driving engine behind the process. In the end rationality merely serves as a weak handmaiden to most people's political views, because their political views are driven mostly by underlying emotional loyalties which are not essentially rational at all, and which are normally based on the past emotional events of their own lives, from birth to the present.

Instinctive loyalties are learned early in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:53 PM

I tried, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer back in the shop again!)
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:42 PM

The problem, Dick, is that it's a bit like telling someone, "Don't think about monkeys." What's the first thing that pops into their mind?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

"Having a discussion about NOT discussing Ms Palin doesn't seem to be working." Poppagator

This reminds me of once at a music party one musician said, You know, there are just two songs I don't like. One is Wimoweh and (I've forgotten that one. Eb).

Someone in the group overheard a snippet and exclaimed, Oh, that's a good one!

And danged if they didn't sing them both. Said musician and I just looked helplessly at each other.


Sorry, Dick. It's kind of like "Don't think of an elephant".

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:18 PM

I give up (for the moment). If folks can't stop discussing Ms. Palin on a thread specifically focussed on NOT bothering to discuss Ms. Palin, maybe this election is about personalities after all. God help us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:36 PM

Evidently, Obama got some laughs last night on Letterman:

Dave: "Yeah, they got together and they said, 'You know what? He called our vice presidential candidate a pig.'" (audience laughs) "Well, that seems pretty unlikely, doesn't it?"

Obama: "It does. But keep in mind that, technically, had I meant it that way, she would have been the lipstick, you see?" (audience, Dave laugh) "But now we're..."

Dave: "I don't know, you're way ahead of me." (audience laughs)

Obama: "Yeah, the failed policies of John McCain would be the pig."

AND:

Obama: "Well, I - look, there's no doubt that she's been a phenomenon. I mean, you know, as somebody who used to be on the cover of Time and Newsweek, you know." (audience, Dave laugh)

Dave (laughs): "Those were the days." (audience applauds)

Obama: "Those were the days. I had a recent offer with Popular Mechanics." (audience laughs)

Dave: "Take it, take it." (audience laughs)

Obama: "Said they had a centerfold, yeah, with a wrench, you know." (audience, Obama laugh) "But, no, look, she's on a wild ride and there's no doubt that she's energized the base. But ultimately what we've seen over the last week is a concession on the part of the McCain campaign that this election is going to be about change. You'll recall, you know, for the last two years, we've been talking about needing to change how Washington works, how the country is managed and people were saying, 'No, it's about experience, experience, experience,' and over the last week and a half I think they recognized that, no, the American people want something fundamentally different and for a good reason. Because when you travel, it doesn't matter whether you're here in New York City or a tiny hamlet somewhere in the Midwest, what you find is people are just having a tough time right now. The economy is not working for middle class families, incomes have gone down, people don't have healthcare, you've got foreclosures all across the country, and so people want something different, and whoever makes the better case that we have had enough of the last eight years, we need something fundamentally new, whoever makes that case to the American people will be the next President." (audience applauds)

It was a good interview which also had its serious moments and may be read HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:23 PM

Having a discussion about NOT discussing Ms Palin doesn't seem to be working.

I don't think it COULD possible work...

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

From the NY Times:

It is well past time for Sarah Palin, Republican running mate, governor of Alaska and self-proclaimed reformer, to fill in for the voting public the gaping blanks about her record and qualifications to be vice president.

Skip to next paragraph
The Board Blog
Additional commentary, background information and other items by Times editorial writers.

Go to The Board » The best way to do that would be exactly what the campaign of John McCain is avoiding — an honest news conference. Instead, she has been the bell-jar candidate, barnstorming safe crowds with socko punch lines and plans for a single interview on ABC News built around a visit to Fairbanks, Alaska, and her hometown of Wasilla.

Just in time for that appearance, Ms. Palin, who was proclaiming her family's privacy a week ago, will make a political event out of her son's deployment to Iraq. But as for talking to reporters in general, the McCain campaign sniffishly says they must first show "some level of respect and deference."

That is a peculiar response for someone who is campaigning as one tough, transparent politician who can take the heat. Why not some detailed questioning? With deference, we believe many questions will arise about this largely unknown politician as reporters properly search beyond the wholesome anecdotes.

Ms. Palin is positioning herself as the kind of politician who knows how to manage the people's money. She got a big cheer from the Republican convention when Mr. McCain said she had put the Alaska governor's private plane on eBay.

The running mates both failed to mention that it did not sell on eBay and that she unloaded it later to a businessman for a $600,000 loss. The Chicago Tribune reported that the majority of the plane's time was used to transport prisoners from Alaska's crowded jails to Arizona, a job now done by federal marshals.

All of which made it vexing to read the disclosure by The Washington Post that Governor Palin billed Alaska taxpayers for more than 300 nights that she spent at home in her first 18 months in office. The campaign claims the $60-a-day allowance is proper, and various states do have differing per-diem approaches. But voters ought to hear the candidate answering such questions, not for purposes of petty quibbling, but to help fill out their skimpy sense of who Ms. Palin actually is.

She could explain, as well, why she was for the Bridge to Nowhere when it was first proposed and reversed field once it became a symbol of legislative abuse. Even then, the governor helped cycle the $223 million in federal pork to other state needs.

Voters have a right to hear Ms. Palin explain in detail her qualifications to be standby president with no national or foreign policy experience. More is required of any serious candidate for such a high office than one interview with questions put by one selected source.

...

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer, etc.)
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM

No, intelligent. And she can think on her feet, which Bush can't. She's more at home in front of an audience than Bush is, and as a trained broadcaster, she at least knows how words should be pronounced. There's more to being a broadcaster than merely reading a telepromter. I've been there. Never used one.

One can be quite intelligent (which impresses people--voters--if you know how to use it, and she does) and still hold some incredibly stupid and nasty ideas. Intelligence is not a safeguard against being an ethical midget. And that, judging from the gap between what she says she's done and what she actually has done is, I think, the case with Ms. Palin.

She knows how to tickle a crowd without having to rely on a telepromter. And this, plus her appeal to Evangelicals, makes her dangerous from my perspective.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:31 PM

I don't think that she is smarter, remember that her degree was in broadcasting.

She is better at reading a teleprompter.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:30 PM

From a recent interview:

OBAMA: I mean, this is — this should not be complicated. Here's what it comes down to. Under George Bush's stewardship, with an assist from John McCain and the rest of the Republican Party, the economy is weaker now than it has been in a very long time. Unemployment is higher. Poverty is higher. More people are uninsured. Wages and incomes have flat-lined. Middle class folks who used to feel secure now feel unstable. We've got more homes being lost to foreclosure than at any time since the Great Depression.

And John McCain does not have any discernible difference from George Bush when it comes to economic policy. He's got the same economic policy. So if you like what has happened under George Bush's presidency, you should vote for John McCain. If you think that we have to move this country in a fundamentally different direction, then you should vote for me. And that is going to be the case that we make throughout this election, and frankly, that's not the conversation that the McCain campaign wants to have.

Rick Davis was very explicit. John McCain's campaign manager said this campaign is not going to be about the issues. That was his assertion. Well, I think that the American people expect it to be about the issues. They deserve it to be about the issues. That's what we're going to keep on pressing in the weeks that will remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,Don Firth (computer still in the shop)
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

"If you put lipstick on George W. Bush, you got Sarah Palin!"

Except that Sarah Palin is one helluvalot smarter. Which makes her that much more dangerous!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:49 AM

Could she be a music/movie star to the superficial?

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

If you put lipstick on a pig you still got a pig.
However...
If you put lipstick on George W. Bush, you got Sarah Palin!

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:31 AM

Point well taken Dick. Unfortunately, most of us, even here on Mudcaet, get swept up in the dirt of this election campaign. Behind all these accusations and mudslinging, we all look for a juicy scandal to occupy our time, but as you correctly point out - the issues are ignored.

Maybe we need to put some lipstick on the economy....

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 11:14 AM

"The Romans invented "Bread & Circuses"

I thought the Syrians invented bread .. or was it Lebanese?

the French invented the circus.

The Romans invented the God Jesus ... contrary to what many Americans think.

.

.

.

I'm outta here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

IF you accept McCain's definition of middle class--those earning less than $5,000,00 annually--I guess that Obama's tax proposals will hurt the upper sector of the middle class.

Ron- with only fifty-odd days before the election, every day spent ind discussing garbage like Palin's past deeds or misdeeds or McCain's war record,or Obama's pastor is one less day to convince the voters of the very real differences between the parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:41 AM

"The Bush II election (the one he won) must have been a combination of fear and personality. "

I agree. There was a fear and as SRS pointed out, a smear on the other candidate.   The other candidate also had difficulty getting his message across and fighting accusations.

Look, I do not disagree that you need "personality" to get a seat at the table, but what you bring to the table is the ultimate decision maker for the voter.

An actor gets the message from the playright or the screenwriter to the audience. How well they deliver their lines determines the success. It is no different with ANY poltician - Obama, Palin, McCain, Kucinich, or the guy running for dog catcher. If they can deliver a message that speaks to what the audience needs, their chances of winning increase.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:34 AM

Q: Either you are badly misinformed on Obama's tax program, or you are in the top .2% of earnings in the country.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:05 AM

Personalities bring the parties to the attention, but America votes on the issues.

Ron, I have to respectfully disagree. The Bush II election (the one he won) must have been a combination of fear and personality. The man had and still has no grasp of the "issues."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM

Popularity contests elect actors. FDR recognized good actors as being consumate politicians. Statesmanship, wisdom and knowledge are the greatest real advantages for leadershi but the public remembers personality.

Being a decent actor is crucial. So crucial that professional actors are now accepted as leading candidates without second thoughts.

Perceived personality is key Ron. Sadly, but it really is about personality be it a high school president or a US President.


Smearing the personality of you opponent is the second most influential factor for 60% of the people. Only about 16% vote rationally and logicly.

The latest McCain ad in Michigan shows Obama leering at a Kindergardner and the text says he voted for sex education of 6 year olds. The bill he voted on was to warn about sexual predators, but that was not mentioned. Instead they imply Barack is a child sexual predator. THe ad is is by people for family values.
People remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM

"I have stated that elections in America are never about issues, they're about personalities. "

Totally disagree. Personalities bring the parties to the attention, but America votes on the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 09:09 AM

Fran Drescher can at least talk normally whenever she wants
If you ladies are willin to trust your husband to a mystery woman you can sure trust Sarah to be President. She is no worse than your typical control freak with fierce ambition no matter what it does to other people.
Closin the book on Palin the (intentional) mystery woman now

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 08:12 AM

Am' while the gal is sho nuff purdy she needs a voice transplant because her voice is starting to grate on my nerves... Kinda like "The Nanney"... Not to mention that she sounds like like she is talkin' to her kids or her dog...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Stu
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 04:14 AM

Tony Benn, a politician here in the UK suggests these five questions should be asked of any person in a position of power:

What power have you got?

Where did you get it from?

In whose interests do you use it?

To whom are you accountable?

How do we get rid of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:51 AM

The Romans invented "Bread & Circuses"...

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 03:44 AM

You might want to scroll down HERE to actually read about what Obama wants to do about tax relief, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 02:03 AM

Obama doesn't intend to increase taxes on the middle class. The people who are promoting that notion are lying. He intends to reduce the taxes on the middle class as well as eliminate the capital gains tax for small businesses (both of which will benefit me and JtS). And if he puts more of the money we will still be paying in taxes into programs that will actually benefit the majority of taxpayers (and he does), I have absolutely no problem with that.

It's not programs that benefit the taxpayers that are ballooning the deficit. It's the wasteful and corrupt use of our money to enrich the cronies of people like Bush and McCain - the war profiteers and big business (both of whom are being subsidized by the middle class taxpayers, at the expense of their own standard of living).

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:16 AM

Like Bush hasn't done anything to increase the deficit? At least Obama will spend it on people here at home, not out blowing the world to pieces. Amazing how Bush is throwing it around, a billion here, a billion there. All to cover his ass for failed policies and practices. So Obama shouldn't spend money wisely? Give me a break!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 01:03 AM

And Obama wants to increase taxes to add more programs to increase the deficit.

Subject: RE: BS: Enough, already with Palin!
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 08 - 12:47 AM

McCain won't reduce the deficit. His imperialistic ambitions will need to be funded.