BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:55 PM

Leeneia, I've always supposed, without a shadow of evidence, that the -fend part is from the same root as the fend in nautical terms, as 'to fend off,' physically prevent from colliding, or 'to fend for yourself.'

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:34 PM

Yes, Art. A precursor to a beer is a forebitter. However, when the Prince of Denmark tried to institute prohibition, he forbittered the pubs. See the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:12 AM

The first time I ever heard that expression was Joan Sprung in the mid 70s.

I have always been a fan of Bill Shakespere, and at one point in my checkered youth I was going to write a biography of him, but, as he once said, "And enterprises of great pith and moment become sicklyed over with the pale cast of thought, and lose the name of action."

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 07:11 PM

Is the drink you have before having a beer a forebitter?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 12:45 PM

English has at least three fors.

1. the preposition, as in 'This is for you.' My dictionary has a column and a half of definitions for this supposedly simple word.

2. The prefix fore-, which Nigel is talking about. It usually means ahead of, or in front of.

3. The prefix for-, which only cultivated and suave speakers such as Mudcatters are aware of. It is rather archaic. For- tends to ascribe something bad to the verb. It is prohibited or overdone. For example, consider the difference between 'bid' and 'forbid.'

It is akin to the German prefix, 'ver-,' which means about the same thing.

==========
Trouble is, the -fend part of forfend doesn't make much sense. To forfend is to avert or prevent, which is why my mother would exclaim 'Saints forfend!' How that meaning came about, I do not know.

Nigel, I agree with you that English is a lovely language.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:00 AM

We have had numerous postings showing that 'for' or 'fore' mean 'to the front'. In American usage, surely the fact that cars do not have 'bumpers' then they have a 'forefender' and a 'rearfender'.
These (as they might say in the Southern states) are De fenders!

'Fore' is also a very useful word for getting a lot of meaning into a single word, it means 'I've just hit a golf ball and anyone in front of me (to the fore) should be alert'

Lovely language this, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:51 AM

OH YES HE IS....................(well, it's the panto season, isn't it?) :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 04:24 AM

ROFL Aye lad ye may be bonny and ye may be bricht but even Giok McKenzie is no that auld

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 02:31 AM

The fact is, Ah've nae had ma lugs rung in ower a year. Tae ca' me a nyaff an' a glaikit gowk is nae way tae speak tae a braw laddie wha wis at the Battle o' Bannockburn hisel, an' Stirling Bridge too. Ye shuid be ashamed tae sae sich things. As fer ma bahookie, dinna mess wi' that!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:12 AM

100?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:57 AM

1

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM

2

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:56 AM

3

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:55 AM

4

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:56 PM

I am now suitably chastized, Amos, and shall slink off to the shadows... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: rumanci
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:32 PM

This version seems stable enough at its end

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:21 PM

Whereas forbid is what you do before sex - if the bid is accepted, you may proceed.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:19 PM

Forfend is the last stage in the act of sex: It comes after fore-court and fore-play (fors'kin can be also involved here, Dobro). Sometimes it is also preceded by forced entry, but this is generally frowned upon.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:01 PM

'Forfend' is obviously a distant cousin to 'forbid'. I'm having some difficulty with my fors' kin.
I'll get me coat.....

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:22 AM

LH:

Whist, lad! Haed ya gob!

There ya go!


A

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: rumanci
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM

Yes Morti. I'm guilty as charged with the same reasoning as you.
Do ya think it's OUR fault and HOW did LH never notice ?   LOL

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Morticia
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:40 AM

Well heaven forfend is an expression I have used for years and probably more than once on here. Problem is, I always say it in an arch tone of voice and matching facial expression so people know I am using it to take the piss.

If only we could translate them things to here

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:26 AM

"Is this thread creeping into animal husbandry? "

As Tom Lehrer said; "he majored in animal husbandry...until somebody caught him at it"

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:58 AM

GURNEY! Behave!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:28 AM

Forfend ? it's Sarf Queensferry, end of the Forf Bridge.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:35 PM

Bryn Pugh speaks of putting the ram in the rammalamber...
and Backwoodsman of putting the dip in the dipsheepdipsheepdip..

Is this thread creeping into animal husbandry?

And that term itself could lead to misunderstanding in an non-agrarian society.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:50 PM

Heavens forfend Nigel!

ooops I think this is where we came in :)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

Emma B:
'whist lad haed ya gob'
Trying to get this promoted 'above the line' by quoting the first line of the chorus of the Lambton Worm?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:28 PM

In the Geordie dialect I think 'whist lad haed ya gob' would do it LH :)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

Archaicisms are something like cussing--they're only effective if used very sparingly.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

Now to start on all the fore's-

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 06:10 PM

Say that to me in Scots dialect and I'll give it some serious consideration, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:59 PM

Little HAwk:

Disperse, and foreswear this obsession with the rationalization of your own ignorance. That you have learned an ancient word is a virtue; but ypur protesting it without grounds or merit turns it to a grave sin, full of hubris, and a braying demand for justification of know-nothingery. Giver o'er, sir, ere you damn yourself roundly with your own protestations!


A

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 05:42 PM

Good one, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: pdq
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

It's up to fivefend now. Inflation, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:14 PM

Didn't he also put the dip in the dip-de-dep-de-dip? Who was that man? I'd like to shake his hand - he made my baby fall in love with me.
Why it was Barry Mann with The Halos.
A-wop-bop-a-loo-mop-a-lop-bam-boom.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:34 PM

Hey you gorbellied folly-fallen giglet guys
here's       some more ammo for you :)

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM

Yes, and the same is true of maundering pissyfants who strut around waving perfumed hankies in the air and portentiously braying "Mark my words!"

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:00 PM

Lollygagging lackwits often fail to notice that an unusual word can lend emphasis o an otherwise dull and unconvincing narrative.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 10:30 AM

No, forsooth - did he not put the ram in the ramalamadingdong ?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:54 AM

Bill Haley?

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Gurney
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:53 AM

I've only seen it used in books,- You wouldn't hear it much in a factory,- but I have been aware of it since my teens. Which were a while ago.
If it's good enough for Bill Shakespeare and in Percy's 'Relics...' then it is good enough for anyone.

When did shops become 'outlet stores?' When did spectacles become 'eyeglasses?' When did mean stop meaning mean and mean nasty?'

And who put the bop in the bop, shebop, shebop.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM

Forsooth! 'Tis time to forswear use of this thread, it is forspent, further posts must pay a forfeit.

All of the 'for-' words are in the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.

Anyone with the slightest reading knowledge of English should be aware of them. Harrumpf!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

I had never seen the expression "heaven forfend" either Mrs Duck, until a few years ago on this forum. That's what makes me think it is some kind of trendy catch phrase that has caught on just lately amongst the psuedo-intellectual Starbucks crowd who like to flummox other people and impress one another with their supposed verbal sophistication.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:47 AM

My mother, an American born in Pittsburgh in 1918 and raised in various places in the Midwest, often said 'Saints forfend!' As in:

'Elvis Presley might be the main star at the Youth Festival.'
'Saints forfend!'

Heaven knows where she picked it up, but 'forfend' has been around for quite a while.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:11 AM

Well this is where I have to admit that I had never seen or heard the phrase 'heaven forfend' until reading this thread today. Dead educational 'ere innit!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 04:18 AM

This is not an argument - it's simply two participants each gainsaying the other!

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:55 PM

Oh, yes we do!

("Isn't this the room for arguments? I came here for an argument!")

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM

Language, in case anyone hasn't noticed, can be fun.And we don' need no steatocephalic critics who object to correct, if unusual usage.

Subject: RE: BS: When did 'forbid' become 'forfend'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 08 - 08:45 PM

Ah...Nigel...if you only realized how deadly serious I am about all this...how I lie awake at night wondering how I can get the word "forfend" banned from the English language...how I yearn for the simple days when people at nothing but corn bread and bacon and limited their discourse to 150 common words and phrases...

If only! ;-D

I will not REST until you are all compelled to do it MY way, d'you hear me! I am on a crusade here, one that can end only in death or total victory.   (there's a little of George Bush in all of us...)