BS: Obit: Reaganomics...

Subject: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:24 AM

Well, well, well...

Looks as if that "trickle down" stuff has run it's course... Even John McCain is reluctantly talking about the dreaded "R Word", as in "Regulation"... Horrors!!!

Yeah, this outta send all the Reaganites running thru the streets like in some bad Japanese horror movie...

What happened to the idea that markets, as benevolent entities, would police themselves, create good paying jobs and be trusted partners in a market driven economy???

Yeah, it took 26 years for these benevolent folks to to run the Theme of the Reagan prsidency into the ground but run it into the ground they have done... And I might add that they couldn't have done better in running it into the ground...

And now, regardless of the Reaganites/Bushite/McCainite pleadings and promises that they can be trusted a "Change" is going to come because there is no other choice... This does not mean that McCain cannot get elected because Southern Man may vote against his interests because of conncious or sub-conscoius racism, but Reaganomics is ***over*** regardless!!!

And that is a good thing... It was doomed from Day One...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:56 AM

Both US candidates have economic experts advising them. Whose advisers predicted the crash, and which candidate modified his economic policies to accommodate the changed economic environment?

Rhetorical questions of course- neither is the answer to both. Up to a few days ago, the rules of the economy were cast in bronze, and implemented by an ethereal priesthood whose credentials were unchallengeable. Unlike the contest between Elijah and the Priests of Baal, there simply isn't another religion waiting to take over. Social Marxism was once an alternative, but spoilt its appeal by building its own cult of human sacrifice until overthrown a couple of decades ago- an event which only added to the credentials of the free (for them) marketeers.

So the best preciction I can give is that things will get back to normal as soon as possible, there will be a decent period of mourning during which CEOs will forego half their deserved bonuses, the costs will be extracted from those least able to pay, and eventually everyone will pretend that they've forgotten about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:23 AM

Nah, this one ain't gonna just blow over and "normal" in is a dog that won't hunt...

This isn't about CEO salaries... It's about the sharing of resources and the paying of bills and that is going to require more than just a tune up but a return to the days of ***Regulation***... Oh... Yeah, I'll be the first to say that usually when the pendelum swingts it swings a tad too far just as it has done with Reaganomics but that is the price we will have to pay, literally, to bring about some level of stability and fairness...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:30 AM

To many of us, Reaganomics was a stupid idea when it started out. I'm only amazed that it took this long to collapse.

               Paul Burke is right, though. The candidates only mouth the advise from their handlers. Even Obama has backed off his original plans, and thinks it would be bad to raise taxes in a recession.

               The fact that the thieves stole all the money shouldn't surprise anybody--those were the handlers of the candidates that went before.

               It would take an honest man with a lot of balls to fix it, and both Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were forced out of the race early on. I watched Ralph Nader taking about this problem on a news program, and I think he has the right answers, and would make an effort to return the people's government back to the rightful owners. But what is his chance of getting elected.

               Sadly, I'm sure we'll end up with one of the fools.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:31 AM

Pelosi asked for a Congressional review, and McCain for a presidential one; watch this space - big wads of regulations and oversight expected from both.

It's the economy, stupid - but not as we know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:36 AM

Riginslinger, I think this is too big for one person to fix - any one. It cuts right to the quick, and highlights that the country has been overleveraged throughout and has been living beyond its means for years. It will take sacrifices from all and a dent in the standards of living to fix this.

And the unfortunate thing is that this is no standalone US-only problem. AIG insures loans throughout the world, not least in the thriving Chinese econmy, which would be at serious risk of going belly-up, if AIG had been allowed to fail. The American taxpayer may be more than a little peeved at the bailout, but the alternative is so much worse!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:39 AM

And, of course, all of the reviewers will have their own axes to grind, and be working the system for a way to gain a pay-out for themselves and their friends.

                     This is a situation that simply needs strong leadership. Basically, most anyone knows what the problems are, and what needs to be done to put things back on track. They just have to muster the courage to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:45 AM

note to myself...I gotta illustrate what has finally trickled down from on high



We have regulations and security up the Wazoo to get on a plane
but the republicans want no security, no regulation, no police when they walk into our banks and take all the money.
Their limo getaway car cruises slowly to the Hamptons while they all sing "its insured anynhow."...



Desperate Wall Street
Why don't you come to your senses
You've been out fencing messes
For so long now
That cash that you've stolen
is the debt we are holdin
and will hurt us somehow.

Don't you sell the sub prime mortgages
She'll beat you if she's able.
You know that energy is always your best bet.
Now it seems to me, some fine things
Have been laid upon your table.
Besides all themoney yous teal
is all insured.

Desperare Wall Street,
Ohhhh you aint getting no younger.
Your pain and your hunger,
They're driving you home.
And freedom, ohh freedom.
Well that's just some people talking.
Your prison is a hundred Mil in your Swiss bank account

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:57 AM

I saw a cartoon years ago that aptly demonstrated Reaganomics:

A poor family sitting under the raised tail of an elephant, waiting for the "trickle down."

Wouldn't it be nice if the politicians actually told the voting public the truth for a change? Unlike the Nixonites, I have never felt that the American people were "children."

Of course, the Truth would set them free -- at least until the convictions came in.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:21 AM

Yep we all did one of those cartoons, mine went into a big tank first labled 104th Congress



Too Big to fail Too Big to fail....


What about you, and me and every person not on the board of Corporate Socialist Fascism Inc?

AREN'T WE ALL TOGETHER TOO BIG TO fail?

No our vote doesn;t count in when it iss it is done via their software.
Big means money, not rhe people who work to create it.
They are telling you that you are small, you don't count.
We are the 1% with 90% of the money, which will get us by even in hard times. Yes they are too big, but aren;t they also saying...

YOU ARE TOO SMALL TO succeed.

LEAVE IT TO THE BIG BOYS...



they need to be taught a lesson.

Unless we drag at least a few of these guys out of their mansions they will do it again in a heartbeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:20 AM

I think the problem may center aroundf getting "too big to do things right".

The thought occurred tome that we might have an argument for a free-market loose association of small companies (say, less than 1000 employees each) still capable of feeling local, would constitute a MUCH better mechanism for global import-export than the huge concatenations that make uop the big multi-national corporations today.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:23 PM

It was not an accident of size, or a bad apple or two, or the Peter principle, it was deliberate and calulated.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:00 PM

Guess it's time to un repeal Glass-Steagle that was repealed in 1999, just before the stock market crash and ensuing 2000 recession that GWB inherited.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM

What can banking companies do? Enactment of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (GLBA) on November 12, 1999, provided a new legal answer to that question.1 GLBA widened the range of activities that banks and their holding companies can conduct. GLBA repealed the parts of the Banking Act of 1933 that separated commercial banking from the securities business, which have come to be known as "Glass-Steagall." It also repealed the parts of the Bank Holding Company Act of 1956 that separated commercial banking from the insurance business. Thus, GLBA permits single holding companies to offer banking, securities, and insurance, as they had before the Great Depression.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: curmudgeon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:27 PM

"Guess it's time to un repeal Glass-Steagle that was repealed in 1999, just before the stock market crash and ensuing 2000 recession that GWB inherited."

The repeal you speak of Sawzaw ,was a Republican manoeuver to give away the "candy store"

From Wikipedia:

"The bills comprising the act were introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-TX) and in the House of Representatives by James Leach (R-IA). The bills were passed by a 54-44 vote along party lines with Republican support in the Senate[1] and by a 343-86 vote with in the House of Representatives."

This was a veto-proof majority in a Republican controlled Congress. I would be very hesitant to cite Phil Gramm as any kind of reliable financial expert.

BTW, where did you copy your second statement from?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

Guess it's time to un repeal Glass-Steagle that was repealed in 1999, just before the stock market crash and ensuing 2000 recession that GWB inherited.

Yup. Curmudgeon is correct. Funny how "GUEST,Sawzaw" forgot that little bitty point, that the Republican House and Senate were up to a lot of mischief as they set up things so their rich friends could line their pockets more quickly. Clinton was ham-strung by that corrupt bunch. Good riddance to some, and hopefully more of them are headed out this November.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

The problem was and is GREED, and Capitalism brings out humanity's worst characteristics.

The housing boom was based on debt, with a dozen layers of profit to be peeled off it, for the banks and mortgage companies.
Who payed for the profit? The ordinary Janes and Joes, and they worked themselves into the dust till they could pay no more. Now their tax pounds and dollars are being used to bail out the criminals.

How long must we pay for Capitalism?
Is working from dawn till dusk, forfeiting the joy of seeing our children grow such a good idea, when all we earn is ultimately taken from us by "the great money trick"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: curmudgeon
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:43 PM

Well put, Ake - Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:01 PM

a reminder, Phil Gramm is Mc Cain's financial advisor.

remember the one who said last month that the recession is a mental recession, not economic.

Funny that McCain admits he doesn;t know much about economics. With a genios like Phil how could he go wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

Here on the home front we're hunkering down, keeping the bills paid, not planning to borrow any cash any time soon, keeping fingers crossed that our big bank doesn't topple over next.

Geez.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:18 PM

Akenaten (aka Moses to some)
as you know...
The French are not afraid of their government. Their government is afraid of them. The French have time to play with their kids.
They have health care without the slightest concern of medical bills.
They have similar problems as we yet understand that double the taxes saves them 10 times the money if they had to go it alone in an ownership society such as ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:45 PM

Definition of trickle down economics"

In order to feed the birds, all you have to do is feed the horses."

I'm some glad that the Bush "Offer" to invest some of my Social security in the stock market didn't pan out.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:52 PM

"I'm some glad that the Bush "Offer" to invest some of my Social security in the stock market didn't pan out."

                      Yeah, I'd forgotten about that. Wouldn't that be a swell deal now?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:37 PM

"swell" would not describe the movement of SS cash in the stock market today, if that had happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:01 PM

...yes, and dyed orange hair for old men is gone too. Good riddance!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: GUEST,MarkS (on the road)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:14 PM

Don't worry, congress will fix it. Oh, wait a minute, they have all gone home till after the elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 03:57 AM

So the best preciction I can give is that things will get back to normal as soon as possible, there will be a decent period of mourning during which CEOs will forego half their deserved bonuses, the costs will be extracted from those least able to pay, and eventually everyone will pretend that they've forgotten about it. said I a couple of days ago. The stock market has just posted its biggest rise ever, after they pumped 86 billion dollars of ordinary folks' money into it, free chips for the casino's punters. The failed CEO of HBOS (British bank that squandered its massive capital on speculative loans) has been given millions to tide him over till the next job, while the counter clerks are sacked. There won't even be the mourning or recriminations. Everything's sunny again!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:14 AM

The problem with the gains, Paul, si that all that money pumped into the $yStem was "ordinary folks" because ordinary folks never touched a dime of it... No, it was merel billions and billions of newly printed, hot-off-the-press, money that was printed up especially for the banks to play with... Problem is that when you artificially increase the amount of currency you get a downside of devaluing it and when you do that you get inflation so...

...bottom line, the ordinary folks just had their purchasing power cut yet again...

Economics 101...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 09:54 PM

"...bottom line, the ordinary folks just had their purchasing power cut yet again...    Economics 101..."



                   Yes, all of that is pretty obvious to most of us, but why do people who promote economic theories that obviously can't work win Nobel prizes?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:04 PM

Please let me know if my link works
http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/bloodmoney.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:26 PM

It works, Donuel. As it has in at least three other threads so far.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 04:52 PM

"The repeal you speak of Sawzaw ,was a Republican manoeuver to give away the "candy store"

As per the Senate records, the GLBA, s900 passed 90 to 8 on November 4, 1999

These are the 8 Nays and McCain did not vote

Boxer (D-CA)
Bryan (D-NV)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Shelby (R-AL)
Wellstone (D-MN)
        
Not Voting - 1
McCain (R-AZ)

Schumer, Dodd, Kerry, Reid, Biden voted Yea.


According to the Senate Banking committee records:

# November 4, 1999 -- Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act passed the Senate 90-8 and the House 362-57.

Here is the vote.

Pelosi voted Yea, Barney Frank voted Nay.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 06:26 PM

"BTW, where did you copy your second statement from?"

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2647102

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Sep 08 - 08:18 PM

"A certain man used to visit Monte Carlo year after year and was always successful in recovering the cost of his vacations. He firmly believed in a magic power over chance. Actually his experience is not surprising. Assuming that he started with ten times the ultimate gain,, the chances of success in any year are nearly 0.9. The probability of an unbroken sequence of ten successes is about...0.37. Thus continued success is by no means improbable. Moreover, _one_ failure would, of course, be blamed on an oversight or momentary indisposition." -- William Feller, _An Introduction to Probability Theory and Its Appllications_, Vol. 1 (3rd ed.), p. 346, footnote 2

The world abounds in ways to be a little ahead most of the time. Swindlers on every scale, beginning with Mother Nature & proceeding thru people who make their living playing poker or lobbying Congress, are expert at distracting people from the consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:25 AM

I think the more important thing to keep in mind about the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act is that one of its authors is John McCain's chief economic advisor.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit: Reaganomics...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:59 PM

Isn't he same same guy who called American workers "whiners"???

Hmmmmmmmm???