BS: The Debates: Members Only

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

Well, I'd rather see Obama than McCain, even if Obama were bent, but it seems to be certain that Obama for some time had the use of a garden that he had not bought. The question in my mind became, "What was the quid pro quo". It is possible on the information to date that it was support for political appointments. Is that not so far plausible?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

Well....he is just an Arab, isn't he? *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM

The trouble is that someone glued to a radio or TV is predisposed to blind inflow, and is already demonstrating a willingness to suspend analytical discrimination about what is being said.

For those voters who are not accustomed to parsing bull, or who tend to be easily led, gullible, or semi-hypnotic in their mental state, this sort of emotional rhetoric produces emotional reaction, which is used as a substitute for understanding, and becomes a basis for the KN vote (know-nothing). To justify this suboptimum behavior, they resort to spouting bits and pieces of phrases in any combination they can.



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

These sites and various other fear-mongers offer us, as Amos remarks, innuendo and suggestions couched in provocative form....

"What do we really know about Obama?"
"Why did he not rebuke Rev. Wright sooner?"
"Where do his loyalties really lie?"
...etc. into the distance

Which leads me to ask: "Do rhetorical questions actually serve to clarify anything or are they just reflections of the bias of the writer?"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM

The WakeUp column is a study in gossip and innuendo. It cites no facts, offers no analytical thought, and seeks to instill false conclusions by implications and drab association. THis is the kind of mindlessness that the country needs to go cold turkey on, meaning walking away from a bunch of overheated turkeys. THere oughta be an MA meeting they could go to (Morons Anonymous).


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

For those like me who do not ahve a complete handle on US political smears, there folows the link to what wakeupamerica is saying. I'm still looking for a balanced and rational assessment -

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/10/breaking-story-prosecutor-fitzgerald.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

Well, I thought that wagoing to be mildly witty when it started.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:05 AM

I think we all need to take a look at this video of the Palin-Biden Debate (from Saturday Night Live).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM

( ...actually, they all work for the $y$tem to one extent or another, but I think we can change that, but not if McCain gets elected)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:01 AM

The voters.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:07 AM

The only question that remains to be answered is, who is he really working for?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:34 AM

Bill D, you put that beautifully. I'm glad that Barack Obama is of both races. It's just fittin', a signal to the world that we so cavalierly flouted that we are heading in a different direction.

We *know* that someday the United States of America will have a Black president (as well, in time, a woman president, a president who is a Jew, a Hindu, a Chinese, a Japanese, a Filipino - whatever. This country was made strong by its mixed cultures and common aspirations. What does it matter what private religion the nominee espouses?) So why not NOW? If not NOW, WHEN?

Barack Obama is perfect for the moment, an intelligent, thoughtful, motivational, centered and focused symbol for the times. As Bill said, I don't envy him the job and I'm sure he is aware that the next president is going to take a beating, from both sides for a long time to come. Opponents will be hovering over him like a cat waiting for a mouse to move, his supporters will be defensive, knowing that any lasting improvement will take time. Both sides will be impatient, wishing for The Fix.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:21 AM

Everybody's hopelessly addicted, Rig. Only question is...to what?

Let's hope it's something constructive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:51 PM

*grin*.... You mean, Rig, that common sense is addictive? I do hope so! It's sure better than being addicted to some other things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:35 PM

This only works with folks who are hopelessly addicted in the first place!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Why now.... This has been the bread and butter of the McCain campaign... Tell ya'll what, folks... Over the last month McCain nas hit everything but the lottery... I mean, he has been all over the board...

If this is the way that he intends to goveern he'll make Bush look like FDR...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:10 PM

In today's news:

DAVENPORT, Iowa (CNN) – A minister delivering the invocation at John McCain's rally in Davenport, Iowa Saturday told the crowd non-Christian religions around the world were praying for Barack Obama to win the U.S. presidential election.

"There are millions of people around this world praying to their god—whether it's Hindu, Buddha, Allah—that his opponent wins, for a variety of reasons. And Lord, I pray that you will guard your own reputation, because they're going to think that their God is bigger than you, if that happens," said Arnold Conrad, the former pastor of Grace Evangelical Free Church in Davenport.

The remark was made before McCain arrived at the rally but the Republican nominee's campaign quickly put out a statement distancing itself from the remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:01 PM

Exactly, BillD and LH... That's what we are talkin' about...

And, Alice... Yeah, those youngin's coming behind us get it alot better than alot of folks of "my generation"... And that is a good thing... I just hope that Obama will be elected because it will validate so many of "my generation's" fights...

"If I should put my hammer down
before my time has come
Yeah, if I should put my hammer down
before my time has come
Take and bury my body down
'Long Highway 61..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:50 PM

Well, Bobert, I will agree that there is a certain form of dignity and nobility that can be brought forth in any oppressed people when they are under the heel of oppression....and there is a certain ugly form of arrogance and sense of entitlement that can surface in some individuals of a group that's sitting pretty on the top of a social power structure.

I think we've all seen many examples of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:39 PM

As someone in a generation younger than mine says, "racism is so 20th century".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

Obama is a well-spoken, intelligent, concerned leader....who just HAPPENS to be of mixed heritage and a product of several cultures...(mostly American).
   I find this to be of enormous value and relevance when I contemplate him being president and dealing not only with domestic issues, but also with countries and issues around the world! American has been represented by men of one basic color & basic heritage since its beginning, and it's time we represented this 'melting pot' by having a fine leader who IS part of that melting pot! It's a bit like choosing Jackie Robinson to be the first to break the color barrier in baseball....he was GOOD, he was intelligent, and he was willing to absorb the crap until folks got used to him.

   It will be another generation before it will be easy for folks of other cultural backgrounds and 'colors' to be commonly elected to high office with little mention OF their ethnicity or color ..or gender... but Barack Obama is the perfect breakthrough. *IF* he does well and leaves office respected as a trusted, honest and reasonably competent leader, it will be huge leap in this country's ability to gain respect in the world and acknowledge the values of ALL its citizens!

   John McCain, for all his heroic service and attempts to cope, represents the past in many ways, and he shows it in his failure to 'get' what is necessary to lead in these trying times.

I hope be be here in 4...or 8... years to refresh this thread and say "I told you so."

Whoever wins in Nov. is inheriting one HELL of a situation, and it may take several years of the BEST leader & some good luck to dig our way out of this mess....I want Obama to win, buy I don't envy him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM

Ain't about better, LH... It's 'bout class and grace... Black people have shown me alot more class and grace in their struggles than anything I am seein' no by angry White rednecks...

Yeah, I undersatnd the colorblind thing but...

... that's been my experience of having been raised in the South...

Wish it weren't so but....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

There was a time when I felt that way about Native Americans, Bobert. I liked them considerably better than White people, even though I am White. ;-)

Well, I eventually realized that there's no race that is inherently better or worse than any other race, but it took me quite awhile to figure that out, I must say. A lot of my romantic illusions had to fall.

Never judge the book by its cover.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

Actually, I am voting for Barrak first becasue he is the best person for the job but also because of race...

Huh???

Yeah, I agree with Michael Moore's "Kill Whitey" chaptter in one of his books... I have been so screwed over by white people in my life that, yeah, I have become very leary of white people...

And I have spent alot of my life living with, working with and playing music with Black people and, guess what??? I find Black people to be more honest, more open and one heck of alot cooler than white people...

If that is racist then so be it...

(Yer gonna get it now, Boberdz...)

Who cares??? Hey, if race is gonna play a part in this election then some old white guys like me are gonna have to stand up and say, "Alot of White people ain't all that nice..." Case in point, just check out the rednecks that are linin' up to yell "Kill him" at Sarah Palin's rallies...

Would Black people, in general, act as poorly??? I seriously doubt it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM

Yeah, but McCain did get lots of nice vacations and a lot of campaign finance money from Charles Keating. And Cindy got a sweetheart business deal with Keating as well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM

Hey, I didn't get a sweetheart deal on a house from Tony Rezko!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM

If by "elite" you mean the best of the crop, I am inclined to agree. That's what the word used to mean. But he is very well grounded in the matters of the ordinary life, and is as detached as he needs to be only so far as to avoid getting sucked into the kind of kneejerk reactionary opinionation which so many less-than-thoughtful people engage in in this country. Among whom, I might add, I count you as one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM

I see him as elite and detached. But when Rezko sings, he's sure to come clean on Ron Davies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

Oddly enough, I do not think of him as Black. He's more of a tan color, as far as epidermal hue is concerned. I guess the notion of race depends on which kind of prejudice you grew up with. I grew up learning to be biased against hate-mongering, against sclerosis of the brainwave, and against those who had hardened heart-beams. The "race" I grew up with is the race of humans trying to know, or learn, or exchange ideas. The race I am prejudiced against is the race of humans who market fixed ideas, the pursuit of ignoral, and the celebration of stupidity. This is bigotry on my part, I admit, and I am working on outgrowing it, to whatever extent possible, but I find the canalization of these prejudices runs rather deep and is hard to shed just by deciding to do so.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Irene M
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

Azizi. Thanks for that.
I have heard a number of people of mixed race, here in the UK bemoan the fact that each of those "races" focuses on the other one, when their skin colour is mentioned.
Maybe things have moved on over the Atlantic. I certainly hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

Irene, I was too hasty. If by your statement that "the whites see him as black" means that White people consider Barack Obama's racial identity to be Black, then I agree with you.

But if you mean by that that a large {enough} number of White people won't vote for Obama because of his racial identity I disagree with you. The notion that White people won't vote for a Black person as president is part of the strategy that the Clintons were hoping for in the Democratic primaries. As you can see, that strategy and the notion that Black people wouldn't vote for a Black person who is mixed race failed.

Btw, I believe that it was rather stupid for anyone to believe that African Americans wouldn't vote for a person who is mixed racial, given that so many African Americans have mixed racial ancestry.

{And with that I hope to go back to lurking on this thread. At the very least, I chose not to address questions about the definition of who is or is not African American, including the silly notion that only people who had ancestors who were slaves in the USA can be considered African American. That was another failed divide & conquer primary strategy. By that definition, I'm not African American. As I said, that's just silly}.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

Oh! I just pmed someone and told him that I didn't intend to post to a thread about race for a long time, unless I was providing demographical information and/or cultural analysis of a song or children's rhyme.

However, Irene, I feel compelled to respond to your statement that "The whites see him {Obama} as black and the blacks see the white in him."

First of all, Irene, you are speaking in broad generalities.

And, frankly, I'm not sure what you mean by "the Blacks see the white in him".

If you mean that I {as a Black person} and other Black people in the USA don't consider Barack Obama to be "really Black" because he had a White mother, and/or was raised by his White grandparents in a community that has few Black people, I have to strongly disagree with you. Imo, both of your statements were failed primary strategies that were put out by the Clintons.

Few people in the USA who have been really following Barack Obama's campaign since Iowa and North Carolina would consider either of these statements as being the least bit credible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Irene M
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM

Thanx for the Nader info.

I do feel sorry for Obama. He cannot win. The whites see him as black and the blacks see the white in him.
We will see what happens in November, of course, but I see McCain being (narrowly) elected. The Dems were on a hiding to nothing when they narrowed the candidates down to Obama and Clinton. The electorate will, in I fear, many cases vote on the basis of skin colour. They would have avoided Clinton on the basis that she would never be able to keep both eyes on the ball. She would have a metaphorical ball and chain, in the shape of her husband. She would have to keep one eye on him. Even if he was behaving himself, there are plenty of little darlings who would be prepared to perjure themselves for the money and the 15 minutes of fame. How do you hope to be taken seriously as President?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM

If McCain's involvement in the Keating scandal doesn't disqualify him from being president, I don't think Obama has anything to worry about with regard to Rezko.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM

9:19

Correction:   Rezko is back in your head--not that he ever left-- and your drivel continues.

As for facts, not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bee
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:20 AM

Big Mick, I think it was a great speech. I've been a strong supporter of unions, and a union member for a good part of my employment. I've watched the Canadian arm of the UA make great strides in twenty years to eliminate gender discrimination in professions that were, and to a great extent still are, almost exclusively male. Now, the majority of these workers don't think twice about working alongside a woman doing the same job.

Though it's interesting that AFAIK Canadian union members tend, for the most part, to vote along liberal-socialist lines.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:19 AM

It looks like Rezko is back in the news, and he's talking.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM

Rich Trumka is the Secretary-Treasurer of the AFL-CIO, its second highest ranking officer. He was making a speech in response to the elephant in the room of labor, that being the racism that permeates the ranks of many of its member unions. The AFL-CIO, for those that don't know is a federation made up of many of the largest International Unions. It was formed as a merger between the American Federation of Labor which was the federation of craft unions (Carpenters, Steelworkers, Boot and Shoe workers, etc) and the Congress of Industrial Organizations which were the Industrial model of unions which organized all crafts working for an employer. Though labor stands for ending racism, the simple fact is that the "Reagan Democrat" is typically a union member. Trumka is taking a stand to say to these folks that it is time to stop voting against your own economic self interests, time to embrace the fact that race is a card being played by the capitalist to keep folks doing that. He is an admirable man whom I have met, and support. Just as in other parts of the world, when one scratches the surface of what appears to be one thing, usually under the scab you will find a money changer stirring the pot. It only serves the interests of those that want continued control over the wealth for the voters to make decisions on something as inconsequential as their genetic makeup.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:37 PM

Ah yes...well, I'd like to see both of those damned political parties stuffed down the garbage disposal of hell...but, alas, I expect they'll be with us till long after you and I are gone, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:24 PM

"You vote for the person, not for their sexual organs or the color of their skin."

Noble sentiment, and true as far as it goes. BUT, in the US, you're really voting , not only for a person, but for a party and (hopefully) a philosophy of government. The best possible President is about as useful as secondary mammaries on an alligator if the other party controls the legislature.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bee
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM

Alice, if you look more closely at the audience in the union speech film, you'll find there are black people scattered through the crowd. That is a labour crowd, and labour is not all white.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:08 PM

There's a small problem in the near term, though, Azizi. Presidents are supposed to be pilloried, lampooned, detested by many, and the butt of cruel humour. It's part of the job. (The way I've heard it, no one got it worse than Abraham Lincoln.) So next year and for a while there is going to be an awful clamor while people claim they can separate the bigots from people just doing what they are supposed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:08 PM

Also, some White people who have been raised to consider Black people beneath them, will either not vote in this election or will vote for Barack Obama because they know that John McCain is an old man with health concerns.

Another reason why these people who have been socialized to be prejudice against Black people may not vote at all or they may vote for Barack Obama is that they know that John McCain's vice-presidental running mate, Sarah Palin, is totally unqualified for the position of vice-president. And like other people in this country and in the world, they don't want Sarah Palin any where near that red button if John McCain were elected president but became unable to complete the responsibilities of that office.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM

No doubt, Azizi, and I hope there are a lot of them who do as you say.

If I was there to vote I would vote for Obama because:

1. I think he's a better candidate in every way than John McCain.
2. I like his attitude a lot better than John McCain's.
3. I don't care what his racial profile is. It simply doesn't matter. It is irrelevant, just as irrelevant as gender.

You vote for the person, not for their sexual organs or the color of their skin.

That is, unless you're just a wee bit stupid...

***

heric, I will PM you an explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:57 PM

In my opinion, this point is too important to leave that typo uncorrected. So here is that sentence again:

In spite of the fact that they may still clinging to racial fear, and inspite of the fact that they may still think that Black people are inferior to White people, some White people will vote for Barack Obama because they recognize that he is a better man for the job of President of the USA than John McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:52 PM

(No, LH, I don't follow it at all.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:49 PM

You are so right, Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM

That was directed to heric...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:43 PM

You must be joking to ask me that.

Because the effects of American culture don't end at the Canadian border, that's why. They just ease off a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

Racism is so old school. It's time for new ideas, new attitudes, new actions.

On election day in the USA 2008, I predict that concerns about pocketbook issues will trump concerns about race for many individuals who still have those concerns.

In spite of the fact that they may still clinging to racial fear, and inspite of the fact that they may still think that Black people as inferior to White people, some White people will vote for Barack Obama because they recognize that he is a better man for the job of President of the USA than John McCain.

Barack Obama will be elected president and he will be the president of all Americans, even those who fear and/or dislike Black people.

And fifty years from now our descendants will wonder why we wasted so much time and so much energy on inconsequential stuff like the color of other people's skin.