 sj |
||
|
||
Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile?
|
|
|
Subject: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: mauvepink Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:27 AM I often sing the wonderful song "Bunch of Thyme" whose original date and author I cannot find. However, one evening a couple of weeks or so back someone told me it had been suggested that some of the words are being used for other meanings. That Thyme is actually virginity and that the rose was a symbol for a sexually transmitted disease. I have found many references to Thyme being virginity/virginal but not that the rose is an STI. The nearest I can find is wanton love http://mysongbook.de/msb/songs/l/letnoman.html So: Can anyone throw further light on this beautiful song and maybe its hidden meanings? I am but ignorant to many things folk but am always willing to learn more. Have a great weekend everyone! mp |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: s&r Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:46 AM Don't know the truth - this is what I heard Once I had a bunch of thyme = maidenhead (supposedly like maidenhair) The sailor gave to me a rose that never would decay = pox sores Stu |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Peace Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:49 AM Rose was in reference to the colour of the STI sores. So it was a neat play on words. Without the use of like or as, simile is out. Ergo, it's metaphors. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Steve Gardham Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM Or alternatively the rose was simply a symbol of love and the bunch of thyme was just a handful of herbs. Skeptic Steve |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: GUEST,Peace Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:17 AM Yep. There's that, too. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: John MacKenzie Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:29 AM The language of flowers and herbs JM |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: John MacKenzie Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM Wikipedia's version JM |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Emma B Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:36 AM The double meanings of herbs and flowers are mentioned in Shakespeare There's rosemary, that's for remembrance; Pray, love, remember. And there is pansies, That's for thoughts "There's fennel for you, and columbines; there's rue for you; and here's some for me; we may call it herb of grace o'Sundays." Oh, you must wear your rue with a difference. The Victorians turned this language into an 'art form' Talking bouquets |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Emma B Date: 04 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM A nice example of flower lore I sowed the seeds of love I sowed them in the spring I gathered them up in the morning so clear When the small birds so sweetly sing When the small birds so sweetly sing The gardener was standing by I asked him to choose for me He chose for me the violet, the lily and the pink But those I refused all three But those I refused all three The violet I did not like Because it bloomed so soon The lily and the pink I really over-think So I thought I would wait till June So I thought I would wait till June In June there was a red rose bud That is the flower for me I often times have plucked that red rose bud Till I gained the willow tree Till I gained the willow tree The willow tree will twist The willow tree will twine I often have wished I was in the young man's arms Who once had the arms of mine Who once had the arms of mine I sowed the seeds of love I sowed them in the spring I gathered them up in the morning so soon When the small birds so sweetly sing When the small birds so sweetly sing violet = faithfulness lily = purity /modesty pinks = perfection red rose = passion willow = forsaken |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 04 Oct 08 - 07:13 AM Thyme is definitely virginity and rose refers to the sores of a STI, although some of the romantics amongst us (me!) like to think he actually gave her a beautiful rose from a proper garden and it lives forever. In one version of Streets of Laredo roses are used to cover the coffin to stop the smell from the body of a young cowboy who died from a STD. In another version of the same song roses are used on top of the coffin to deaden the sound of the clumps of earth as they are thrown on the coffin in the grave. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: mauvepink Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM Really enjoying the thread and comments. Thanks for all the replies. I just found a rather nice song by Eileen McGann too "Thyme" so you have all opened my eyes kind regards mp |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Peace Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:11 AM Mauve? Pink I can picture. What's mauve? |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: mauvepink Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:22 AM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauve mauve pink is a little more subtle Google it and look at images to get the colour/hue very relaxing I like all purples through to pink so the nickname is appropriate for me. Sorry for any confusion caused And to keep this on thread track I think Thyme has a mauvish hue http://stripe.colorado.edu/~mitton/images/Thyme%20in%20Flower%20s.JPG best wishes mp |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Peace Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:23 AM Thank you. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: bubblyrat Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:30 AM In "The Banks of Red Roses ", which is considered by many to be about "deflowering", there is the wonderful line "He took out his charm-box ,to play his love a tune " after which he "stabs" her and leaves her lying bleeding on the eponymous banks ! Or you can believe that he was a blood-thirsty concertina -player, if you prefer ! |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Peace Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:32 AM Banjo player for sure. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:35 AM One of the songs I love is "Come all you Garners Gay"; mentions willows, rue, thyme and oak tree - with different interpretations put on sturdy oak tree! No roses though. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Snuffy Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:01 AM Or a rose could be a child, rather than the pox. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Bren Ború Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:14 AM I was always told that roses was used in many songs to refer to pregnancy, so "he gave to me a rose" would mean she was pregnant. Similarly in The Banks Of Red Roses, the lady is murdered by her lover because she is pregnant. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:55 AM Certainly the rose bit of the song was to remind her of the losing of the virginity and a child would certainly do that. As with a lot of these songs it can mean what we want it to. The trouble is that we often take notice of the first thing we are told and that sticks in our mind. I prefer to think of real flowers:-) |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Effsee Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM Allegorical? |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: mauvepink Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:47 PM Allegorical looks a good description certainly. I was not so interested in whether it was simile or metaphor when I made the title but have been educated because I did put it in. Keep them coming :-) Getting some wonderful ideas and comments Thank you all mp |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM Roses make you think of passion which could lead to pregnancy and which definitely sounds more romantic, but the use of the word decay in these lines "Once I had a bunch of thyme, I thought it never would decay, then came a lusty sailor ....." makes you think more of disease. I don't know anymore! |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: mauvepink Date: 05 Oct 08 - 06:26 AM I have managed an amount of reading since your replies yesterday and it has been facinating seeing the botanical connections to songs and their 'hidden' meanings. It is almost like Heraldry using symbols but we use words as symbolic instead of painted objects. I will always have a fondness for the song itself but now it will never be the same and could mean something different each time it is sung. Such a pity we cannot speak to the person who wrote. They still speak to us :-) Best wishes mp |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Escapee Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM Allegories are all right but I prefer crocodiles. I'm sometimes told that a song or a story is an allegory, but it frequently turns out to be a croc. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Oct 08 - 07:17 AM Not sure I go along with the pox metaphor - the whole elegaic stately flow of the song hints at something fine and romantic , rather than something itchy and depressing. Surely the very nature of the tune is a level of Empsonian ambiguity and meaning, which tell us about relationship. I have always thought of the 'rose' as a lovechild. A flowering of the relationship - permanent reminder of the romance. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Penny S. Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:13 AM I have come to the idea that the sprig of thyme has another meaning in full sight. Let no man steal your thyme. Now my thyme is all gone. Perfectly obviously, once any woman gets involved with a man, her time is never her own again, it is all gone, and she can never get any new.... Penny |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Michael Date: 05 Oct 08 - 08:54 AM "One of the songs I love is "Come all you Garners Gay"; mentions willows, rue, thyme and oak tree - with different interpretations But on sturdy oak tree! No roses though." Ah but eanjay, 'The ladies dont ask fo no roses'! Mike |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Megan L Date: 05 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM When i was at school we were taught that a simile is when something is like something else (as black as coal) and a metaphor is when something takes the place of something else. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: mauvepink Date: 05 Oct 08 - 09:20 AM With what I have read about what a rose could ostensibly be I think I could pass on roses from now on! I'll stick with preferring Gladioli (Symbolizing strength and moral integrity, gladioli also represent infatuation, with a bouquet conveying to a recipient that they pierce the giver's heart with passion). I'll stay a maiden (not so) young and fair, I think, and keep away from Popeye ;-) I'm past my prime but will keep my garden fair (heaven only know what that could mean!). I think it is in the film Armageddon where the Grandfather says "that is why God gave us children: so we can have roses in winter", so maybe even there we hear a point toward roses and children. It is far better than the alternatives! :-) mp |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 05 Oct 08 - 01:08 PM 'The ladies dont ask fo no roses'! LOL |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Mr Red Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:12 AM What's a Meta for? It is a warning, it is educational, advice, propaganda. Not a simile. Metaphor and allegory are my descriptions. But then it might just be a very pretty song. As well. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: M.Ted Date: 06 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM What are you talking about, Mr. Red? |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Phil Edwards Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM I'm with Penny - we're apt to forget just how different life was before reliable contraception was available. If you think that pregnancy followed sex pretty much as night followed day, and that having a child meant the end of a life of your own, then let no man steal your thyme isn't so much a metaphor as an obvious pun (particularly in the versions where the 'thyme' is replaced by 'rue'). And a pox on your pox sores - I think the rose that never shall decay is sexuality, no more & no less. My reading is that, as a virgin, she didn't care about sex & had all the thyme in the world; now she does & is bound to get pregnant, sooner or later - her thyme is running out. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:36 AM THYME Thyme is an herb of Venus and Mars and a symbol of strength. It is loved by the bees and fairies especially in the north of England. In the Middle Ages ladies gave their knights a sprig of thyme to increase their strength and courage in battle. On St. Agnes' Eve. if a young girl places a sprig of thyme in one shoe and a sprig of rosemary in the other, and one on either side of the bed, she will dream of love and the man she will marry. In ancient times thyme was strewn about the house to drive out vermin and provide a pleasant odour. Medicinally it was considered good for depression and to strengthen the head, brain, stomach, and lungs. Used in baths it cleared the skin and soothed the nervous system. It was a cure for insomnia, and the 17th century Parkinson recommended distilled water of thyme and vinegar of roses applied to the head to guard against "frensye" or nightmare. Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary of Folklore THYME This is a relatively common and very useful herb (garden thyme) for culinary purposes because of the fragrant essential oil contained in the leaves. The Greeks used thyme a great deal and its antiseptic properties were realised even then. It was also symbolic of bravery and would often feature in the embroidery of mediaeval ladies on items they gave to knights. Wild thyme, a different species of the genus Thymus, has identical medical properties to garden thyme, although it is less effective. They are both well used for coughs and poor digestion, and as a diuretic, antiseptic and stimulant. A tea made from wild thyme, possibly mixed with rosemary, is said to be helpful in treating headaches and nervous complaints. The plant is, however, regarded as unlucky by many, who would not take it into the house. Indeed, to do so, would invite death or a severe illness according to some. Geddes and Grosset Plant Lore Pocket Reference Digest. Wild Thyme - Tím Chreige - Thymus praecox ALTERNATIVE NAMES: (E) Mother-of -thyme Basil Thyme - Lus Mhic Rí - Acinos arvensis ALTERNATIVE NAMES: Lus Mhic Rí Breatain, Lus Mhic Rí na mBrat. The pleasant scent of thyme has made it a symbol of love in folklore. In England girls would wear thyme, mint and lavender to attract suitors. In Scotland, the scent of thyme had the reputation of giving strength and courage, and Scottish Highlanders drank an infusion of it to prevent disagreeable dreams. Similarly, in ancient Rome, soldiers would bathe in thyme-scented water to increase their valour. The scent of thyme was also traditionally believed to enliven the spirits, and the Romans gave it to people who suffered from melancholy. For all its positive associations, thyme was held to be very unlucky by gypsies in Britain, and was never brought by them into their waggons or tents. Despite its later link to love in folklore, thyme was associated with sacrifice in ancient Greece and was planted by them on graves, and this custom was also carried on in Wales. In British and Irish folk medicine an infusion of thyme was drunk, both as a sedative and for coughs and respiratory ailments. Thymes are members of the dead-nettle family, the Lamiaceae. Irish Wild Plants Niall Mac Coitir Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:39 AM I think there's a few more on the shelf, but I haven't got (oh dear) thyme to look them out. Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: GUEST,Humpty Dumpty Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:22 AM "When I use a word it means what I want it to mean...nothing more and nothing less..." I think Lewis Carroll said that... |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: pavane Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM There are literally HUNDREDS of songs in the Bodleian collection which use similar metaphors. There are also euphemisms. The "daffy-down-dilly" for the male organ is just one. (Why is the daffodil one symbol of the Welsh, I wonder?) |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: TheSnail Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:57 AM Rue might be more than just a metaphor or pun. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: meself Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:05 AM "the dead-nettle family" Used to live next-door to them. Very quiet, they were. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:47 AM Sorry to come in late but just seen this thread. eanjay - In one version of Streets of Laredo roses are used to cover the coffin to stop the smell from the body of a young cowboy who died from a STD. Surely you are mixing versions - the only line I have ever heard for SoL is 'shot in the breast'. Heard numerous versions but never about STD. The 'Unfortunate Rake' (I believe thats the title) is about STD. Bunch of Thyme I always thought referred to virginity. In my innocence I assumed the roses were a means of seduction. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: CapriUni Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:01 AM Thanks, Jim Carroll, for citing the Funk and Wagnall's. I was going to do that myself, but the book is out of my reach at the moment, and damned heavy to boot. The song thyme song that sticks my strongly in my head (that I learned from a Jean Ritchie album, if I recall correctly) is In My Garden Grew Plenty of Thyme. The third verse mentions the rose, and then quickly shifts focus to the willow, where it remains for the fourth: In June the red rose is in bloom But that was no flower for me I plucked at the bud and it pricked me to blood And I gazed on a willow tree (2x) And the willow tree it may twist And the willow tree it may twine I would I were clasped in my lover's arms fast For 'tis he who has stolen my Thyme (2x) This may seem like a complete non-sequitor, but back in the day before Hallmark and American Greeting, handing someone a sprig of willow was considered a polite way of telling them that their love is unrequited, because a willow branch will take root and grow again into a new tree quite easily (Outside a summer house built by my great(?)-grandfather, there grows a tall willow tree which was said to have sprouted from a switch that someone cut as an impromptu riding crop, then stuck in the ground by the door when he got home). So, in effect you're saying: "Sorry I broke your heart, kid; I hope it doesn't stay broken for long." And then, the rejected lover could wear the sprig on their person to say to the world: "No, I don't feel like going to the party. My boy/girlfriend just broke up with me. This goes back at least Shakespeare's day. This passage is spoken by Benedick, in Much Ado About Nothing:
I found him here as melancholy as a lodge in a warren: I told him, and I think I told him true, that your grace had got the good will of this young lady; and I offered him my company to a willow-tree, either to make him a garland, as being forsaken, or to bind him up a rod, as being worthy to be whipped. So, in In My Garden, at least, it seems as if the lad was all full of love until they have sex, whereupon he turns around and breaks up with the singer (to move on to his next conquest?). |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 07 Oct 08 - 12:43 PM Black Hawk on works PC, you are absolutely right. I'm confusing it with the version about soldiers. I have taken this from Wikipedia. The song is universally credited to Traditional, and the origins are not entirely clear; but it seems to be primarily descended from an Irish/British folk song of the late 18th century called "The Unfortunate Rake", which has also evolved (with a time signature change and completely different melody) into the New Orleans standard "St. James Infirmary Blues". The Bodleian Library, Oxford, has a copy of a nineteenth-century broadside entitled "The Unfortunate Lad", which is a version of the British ballad.[1] Some elements of this song closely parallel those in the "Streets of Laredo": Get six jolly fellows to carry my coffin, And six pretty maidens to bear up my pall, And give to each of them bunches of roses, That they may not smell me as they go along. Muffle your drums, play your pipes merrily, Play the death march as you go along. And fire your guns right over my coffin, There goes an unfortunate lad to his home. However, the cause of the Unfortunate Lad's demise is not a bullet wound but a sexually transmitted disease, as is clear from the verse: Had she but told me when she disordered me, Had she but told me of it at the time, I might have got salts and pills of white mercury, But now I'm cut down in the height of my prime. |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: BB Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM In the various floriographies (the name for the 'language of flowers') on the 'net, the only meaning I can find for thyme is 'liveliness', although I had always thought of it as 'virginity'. So that the words in 'The Seeds of Love' that say, 'The bed that once was covered with thyme is now overrun with rue' seemed to me to express regret for the loss of virginity when unaccompanied by the 'red rose bud' i.e. true love, achieving only grief in the shape of the 'willow tree'. Interestingly, 'grass' means 'submission', as in 'the grass that is now trodden underfoot, give it time, it will rise again.' Barbara |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: pavane Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:00 AM In Tam Lin, she often picks or pulls a rose (but only two...) |
|
Subject: RE: Bunch of Thyme: metaphor or simile? From: mauvepink Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:08 PM I just got back home after a couple of days away and see more has been added to this subject. Wonderful! I think there is and are many meanings come out which make sense and I am grateful for the input. "When I use a word it means what I want it to mean...nothing more and nothing less..." Could be more than fair enough but so many of these songs have intriguing meanings and histories just because a word does mean something else. Lewis Carroll (whose real name was Charles Lutwidge Dodgson )called it a looking glass instead of a mirror because hat was the language of the time I guess, just like some of the words mentioned in the thread were used in their day, and Wicki states... "In 1856 he published his first piece of work under the name that would make him famous. A romantic poem called "Solitude" appeared in The Train under the authorship of "Lewis Carroll". This pseudonym was a play on his real name; Lewis was the anglicised form of Ludovicus, which was the Latin for Lutwidge, and Carroll being an anglicised version of Carolus, the Latin for Charles". So obviously he played with names if not words ;-) When I sing "Bunch of Thyme" tonight it will be with a far more knowledgeable head on my shoulders. I have throroughly enjoyed the whole thread and hope it continues a while yet. Than you for all contributions mp |
| Share Thread: |