BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 04:55 PM

I too find that post very strange , Richard, I have no idea what you mean by it.

However, cutting to the chase, would somebody please explain what damage would be done , and to whom, by a 16 year old boy shagging a 22 year old female teacher (using appropriate precautions, natch)

You don't need to explain the damage done by a 22 year old male teacher shagging a 16 year old girl ...

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Bee
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

However, cutting to the chase, would somebody please explain what damage would be done , and to whom, by a 16 year old boy shagging a 22 year old female teacher (using appropriate precautions, natch)

You don't need to explain the damage done by a 22 year old male teacher shagging a 16 year old girl ... - Murray

I don't think there would be as much of a difference, boy or girl (other than pregnancy risk, but that goes both ways too), as you seem to suppose. There certainly would be some sixteen year olds not harmed at all, and of course, a lot would depend on the teacher's personality.

Most teens that age, though, can still be pretty uncertain about themselves, exploring relationships, sexuality, dealing with self esteem problems, and so on. Throwing a mature authority figure into the mix doesn't strike me as a good idea, not to mention, what 22 year old is so attracted to a sixteen year old student that they take such risks? Smart enough to be a teacher but not smart enough to hold off until the kid's at least out of school?

And what is the teen's motivation? Are they really attracted, 'in love', or are they feeling intimidated about it, going along because they don't want to be rejected or even treated punitively by the teacher?

Too many risks, IMO, to be encouraged in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: michaelr
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 10:42 PM

Jeez, where have you guys been? Everybody knows that a male teacher shagging a female student is a crime, but a female teacher shagging a male student is HOT!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:17 AM

That's not even remotely funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Andy Kim
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:29 AM

Sarah Palin strecthing at the blackboard exposing stocking tops. One shake of the head and her hair falls down.

Doubt any pupil or member here would say no to the stick or lines !

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Bee
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:34 AM

That's just confusing fantasy with reality. Teens fantasize, and girls spend as much time fantasizing about male teachers as boys do about female teachers.

Taking it any further is just not on, same as any exaggerated fantasy one might have.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:02 AM

As a teenaged boy, I spent about as much time fantasizing about female teachers as I do now about (shudder) Sarah Palin: none.

I must confess though: as a teenaged boy, I spent an inordinate amount of time fantasizing about teenaged girls - sorry, women.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Bee
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM

meself, you must have missed out on having the right kind of teachers. We had a French teacher, likely around twenty-one years old, whose presence in the classroom is partly responsible for the really poor French skills of half the class, because none of the girls could concentrate on the lesson. He was a real stunner, dark gold hair, strong features, nicely tanned, neatly built, and his hobby was boxing, so he was very muscular. He likely informed the midnight dreams of a couple hundred teenage girls.

But that's as far as any of us would have cared to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:07 PM

"meself, you must have missed out on having the right kind of teachers."

Probably - with my luck. However, I do think that that sort of fascination with (certain of) one's teachers is more of a female than male phenomenon. Probably due to the (im)maturity differential between the sexes in those years ...

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM

"As a teenaged boy, I spent about as much time fantasizing about female teachers as I do now about (shudder) Sarah Palin: none."

As a teenage boy, I didn't have any female teachers - it was an all-male (pupils and teachers alike) establishment. I spent my time being beaten by (male) teachers, and fantasising about Fender Stratocasters.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:49 PM

Well - the Fender Stratocaster DOES have a womanly figure, now doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Peace
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:00 AM

Backwoodsman: Had you said Telecaster I'd be right with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:33 AM

She's a sexy one, too ...

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:38 AM

If you think it's all about young girls infatuated with male teachers, then you've forgotten Mary Kay Letourneau.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:55 AM

Now here's what I call a 'come hither' look.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:01 AM

Shiiiit... that 66 Tele looks like it's never been out of the case. A virgin for sure. What a waste!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:02 AM

Many years ago I knew a male student teacher who was in his final year before qualifying as an art teacher and on a studentship; the terms of the studentship required him to teach wherever he was posted by the (State govt) Education Dept. He would have been about 22 at the time and was engaged to a 17 year old girl (?) who was to be an art student in her final high school year at Altona (let's say) High School. At the time, the same age of consent rules applied as given by someone above, ie 16, so their engagement was legitimate.

Anticipating a problem for himself, his fiancee, the principal and the responsible bureaucrats in Head Office if he were posted as an art teacher to the school where his fiancee was an art student, he put in the application for position that he be posted to any school in Victoria except Altona High.

Guess where the bureaucrats posted him? You got it in one! And despite appeals, that's where he was posted to teach. It was most difficult for all concerned.

A couple of asides come to mind.

I've been fortunate enough to be successful in my attempts to restrain any lingering feelings of attraction to students under my care and have even been successfully scrupulous in avoiding attachments to uni students who, although not under my care, were still at the same institution that employed me. But I've also tried to encourage adolescents to learn to understand their own emotional development. On those occasions (thankfully rare) where those emotions were directed to me, it was a difficult tightrope to traverse, but I was lucky enough to be able to keep them at a professional distance while providing them with some understanding of how to deal with such emotions. Taking the safe but coldly distance path seems inadequate when you're a good teacher in a position to teach well.

The other consideration is a lexicography one, posed by the situation where a teacher is sexually involved with their student. In Oz in the early 60s there was a famous case where a philosophy professor was sacked, officially (but not really) because he was sexually involved with one of his students. This hit the newspapers at around the same time that Sammy Davis Jr's marriage to someone who was "white" was being discussed in the same newspapers. "Miscegenation" was the term used to described a racially-mixed marriage and was, at the time, verboten in many US states.

There was a similar term used to describe a sexual relationship between teacher and pupil but, for the life of me, I can't recall it. I remember asking about it on Mudcat, quite some time ago, and someone kindly posted an answer. But I can't remember the term and thus search for it. I blame it on "senior moments" but perhaps someone can remind me.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

The basic minimum a parent should be entitled to expect from a teacher is that he or she doesn't screw the kids, or indeed lay plans to do that at a later date. (All school inspectors take note of that last point!)

You can't always do your job a teacher. You find yourself in all kinds of terrible schools working in terrible departments - often with no more than stick of chalk to defend yourself with.

However you are not there to find romance or sexual fulfilment - that simple. Noli tangere!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:59 AM

"Backwoodsman: Had you said Telecaster I'd be right with you."

Hey Peace, I said I was just a teeenage lad! When I grew up and got my first Fender, guess what - it was a Tele! What a great guitar that li'l puppy was! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM

Perhaps if some serious thought was to be given toward educating the 16 year-old girls in these scenarios, rather than CONSTANTLY blaming the male teachers, we might get somewhere.Or we could ensure that, in future,ALL male teachers should be happily-married 70 year-olds ??

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: folk1e
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:55 PM

I think that as least as much harm is done by the perpetuation of the myth that sex is only to be undertaken by a couple who want to spend the rest of their lives together and is always euphoric, as by the occasional teacher / pupil dalliance!

I must say that I also believe that the abuse of power is not treated seriously enough!
An ex-school inspector (chris woodhead(I think))shacked up with a 16 year old pupil he had been professionally involved with! Result .... nothing!

BTW How many people realize that the age of consent in UK was formulated to prevent 13year old girls being forced into prostitution?
Also that the reason there was no age of consent for girl / girl sex was that Queen Victoria didn't believe that two girls would do such a thing? ....... there has been no such omission in the age for male/male sex!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:52 PM

In such a context, should you be specifying a name which you merely "think" is correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:45 AM

We've had a sad story related on Aussie TV.

An aboriginal 22 yr old guy contracted a traditional wedding with a 15 year old - with parent's blessing under traditional aboriginal law, and the girl was 'consenting' - I put tha in quotes, because that is where Little Fascist Johnny's "Intervention" went off the track. By those who cam in from outside the NT imposing "white man's law" (as the guy's mother put it) and it appears that they had no 'cultural sensitization training', it resulted in large numbers of police running around, jailing and otherwise harassing people, and and otherwise 'exercising their authority', it eventually resulted in the guy suiciding. Indeed many in the local community are disgusted, and the police are saying nothing because the Coroner is about to bring in a verdict.

It would appear that this was the first time that police 'white men' interfered in such traditional marriage contracts in the Northern Terrority.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: folk1e
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:59 AM

CHRIS WOODHEAD is the correct name!
I was not entirely sure about his first name, but the other facts about his profession (which was the pertinent point) would have identified him to most people, were correct!
Maybe I should consult the great oracle (Google) more often

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:09 AM

My concern was that it sounded as if you were a little uncertain that you had the right school inspector in mind, in which case another school inspector might have been smeared - sorry if I underestimated you!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

"Also that the reason there was no age of consent for girl / girl sex was that Queen Victoria didn't believe that two girls would do such a thing?"...

but also the law considered that sex cannot take place without a penis being involved. Men looked at lesbian sex as aberrant and just needing the 'right man'. Sex could not take place without a penis thus male/male sex was just that while women (sapphos, fricatrices and tribades) have been associated with having a medical problem, cerebral anomoly, congential inverts, criminal, insane and allsorts. It goes way beyond Queen Victoria. Freud of course MADE it an illness as a perversion following his forebares back to ancient Greece. It scared men as it took them out of the sphere of control over women. But I digress ;-)

Could it be that the law as it stands on Teachers and pupils (and anyone in a position of authority over the children) is also there to protect the teachers too from later lawsuits, accusations of abuse, etc? Also, it could be levied that said teacher has given more favourable results in tests and work because they are having sex with said pupil. I think the system has to be seen to be above manipulation and coersion from all sides.

The idea of boys fantasising over a female teacher, does seem more acceptable to most if that teacher seduces the boy. What possible harm could be being done? The boy is lucky. But is he if the person was abusing trust? But generally that would be sex for him so a lucky boy he must be.

But girls have a tendency to get deeper emotional crushes on their male teachers that goes beyond just sex and into actual love (and I accept that some boys will love their female teachers too). It is a recipe made for disater if acted upon in the most instances. Everyone could maybe quote a success but most people know the potential is high for much emotional damage on all sides maybe.

And what of the boy falls in love with male teacher: Girl falls in love with female teacher (and vice versa) scenarios?

No. I think we need protection for all involved and the best way is to have a single rule on this occasion that takes the ambiguity out of it. After all the Teachers are supposed to be the adults and 'know better'. If their hearts get involved then woe betide but it has to be accepted as going with the territory of the position.

It must be very hard for many pupils and teachers to not get involved at some higher level so the state makes a line that is clear.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Greg B
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:33 AM

Having spent a good part of the last ten years of my life dealing
with the fall-out which occurs when a member of the clergy becomes
sexual with a child or a vulnerable adult I have a particular
perspective on it.

And it is fairly simple: if you have sex with someone who does
not consent or who (for any reason) CANNOT consent in a clear-
headed fashion, you're human offal.

And yes, the teacher does belong on the sex-offenders list because
it is a sex offense to use your position of power and authority
over a minor to have sex with him. Or her.

We need to get away from the idea, too, that somehow this is an
appropriate initiation for a young man into "the ways of the
world." The emotional toll can be awful, just awful. It is very
likely that the teacher's more mature, intense feelings are
somehow mirrored in the young man. The risk is that he will
spend the years in which he should be developing himself and
getting an education dealing with the misplaced feelings of
some older woman who has issues of her own; those then get
dumped into his life before he's anything like prepared to
deal with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: meself
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

Greg B: I have to disgree with your statement "because
it is a sex offense to use your position of power and authority
over a minor to have sex with him". If the boss of a private firm, in the UK, has consensual sex with the 16 year old office junior it is not a sex offense - and he will not be prosecuted - or have his name added to the sex offenders register.
   The whole teacher/pupil sex thing should/must be judged case by case.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher/Pupil Sex
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:11 PM

If the boss of a private firm, in the UK, has consensual sex with the 16 year old office junior it is not a sex offense ["offence" where I come from.]

Well,
It is fairly simple: if you have sex with someone who does not consent or who (for any reason) CANNOT consent in a clear-headed fashion, you're human offal.

And, by implication,
In an employer-employee relationship there is a power imbalance that I'd have thought would prevent the junior in the office from giving "informed consent" (as it's called in other contexts). If the consent is not "informed" (and thus "proper") it's not really "consent" and the sex is not consensual.I

In which case,
There is an argument that, should the boss of a private firm, in the UK, have sex (with a flawed definition of "consensual") with the 16 year old office junior it should be categorised as a sex offence - and s/he should be prosecuted - and have their name added to the sex offenders register.

Cheers, Rowan