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While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor

DigiTrad:
ON ILKLA MOOR BAHT HAT


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On Ilkla Moor Bah T'at - hymn? (20)


greg stephens 31 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM
Bernard 31 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM
Les from Hull 31 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM
Les from Hull 31 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM
Les from Hull 31 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM
Steve Gardham 31 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM
Joe Offer 31 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,doc.tom 31 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Guest 31 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM
AlanG 31 Oct 08 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,doc.tom 01 Nov 08 - 05:21 AM
Cats 01 Nov 08 - 06:02 AM
a gud ole bwoy 01 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM
Bernard 01 Nov 08 - 07:25 AM
greg stephens 02 Nov 08 - 08:51 AM
Bernard 02 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Chris Murray 02 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM
Bernard 02 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Nov 08 - 01:56 PM
greg stephens 02 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM
Bernard 02 Nov 08 - 02:39 PM
Steve Gardham 02 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM
a gud ole bwoy 02 Nov 08 - 03:23 PM
Folkiedave 02 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Georgina Boyes 02 Nov 08 - 04:14 PM
gnomad 02 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM
r.padgett 03 Nov 08 - 03:54 AM
greg stephens 03 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM
GUEST,Gadaffi 03 Nov 08 - 05:01 AM
Steve Gardham 03 Nov 08 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler 03 Nov 08 - 07:43 AM
Bernard 03 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,GUEST Sally Drage 05 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM
greg stephens 05 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin 05 Nov 08 - 08:55 AM
Bernard 05 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM
Folkiedave 06 Nov 08 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,jp 13 Jan 09 - 09:59 AM
Anglo 13 Jan 09 - 11:23 PM
GUEST 14 Jan 09 - 10:58 AM
Trevor 14 Jan 09 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Pete M. 01 Feb 09 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Jim H 01 Feb 09 - 05:03 PM
Joe_F 01 Feb 09 - 08:45 PM
Joe Offer 03 Dec 10 - 09:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Dec 10 - 10:18 PM
Artful Codger 04 Dec 10 - 05:41 AM
Wyrd Sister 04 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM
Cats 04 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM
Artful Codger 09 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Captain Farrell 22 Dec 10 - 05:23 PM
MG John 23 Dec 10 - 06:13 AM
MG John 23 Dec 10 - 06:15 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 23 Dec 10 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,henryp 10 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Guest/Mike 25 Aug 15 - 12:00 PM
Joe_F 25 Aug 15 - 03:13 PM
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Subject: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

It is commonly said that Ilkley Moor Baht'at(sp?) was a sort of "made up on the back seat of a bus" bit of fun using a setting of " While Shepherds Watched"as the tune. I've never actually seen a copy of said version, or a reference to it.Does a printed source exist? Anybody ever seen one?


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Bernard
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

PM AlanG - he is a member of a West Gallery choir (the Grace Darling Singers, sometimes known as the Grey Starling Singers!), and it is one of their repertoire.

Yes, a printed source exists, and yes, I've seen it - I recorded the GDS Christmas concert at Chadkirk Chapel a couple or so years ago, so could send you an MP3 of them singing it!


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM

Greg - this tune, known as 'Cranbrook' is one of more than a dozen for 'While shepherds' in the carol tradition of South Yorkshire/North Derbyshire. Here's a link
to the Village Carols website, where there's a choice of 'carol books' for purchase. Elsewhere on the site there's details of the pubs these are sung in and when.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:51 PM


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Les from Hull
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM

ooops

Bit more information here.

Les


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

There is a whole book available on the origins and history of Ilkla Moor baht 'at by Arnold Kellett and it is still in print I believe.

It has been much published with the music since about the 1920s.

The tune is a hymn tune called 'Cranbrook' which would have been used in the West Riding as one of the many settings for 'While Shepherds' so it's very likely that the tune came to it via this route.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM

"While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks By Night" is #20 in the Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols (1993). There are several settings of the song in the carol book, and tune #5 is Cranbrook. So, I suppose it must also be in the unabridged New Oxford Book of Carols, which I couldn't afford.

You'll find only one version of the song (not Cranbrook) in the previous (1928/1964) edition of the Oxford Book of Carols. Nowell Sing We Clear (a quartet including Mudcatter Anglo), have recorded at least a couple of settings of the song, including Cranbrook.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

'Cranbrook' is also used amongst the Padstow carols for 'Behold The Grace' - another shepherds carol.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM

http://www.choralwiki.net/wiki/index.php/Cranbrook_%28Grace_%27tis_a_charming_sound%29_%28Thomas_Clark%29

has Cranbrook from Clark's Union Tunebook with its original text of "Grace ' tis a charming sound"


    Please use a name other than "Guest,guest" - that name is already taken. See our posting policy thread.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: AlanG
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:47 PM

The tune Cranbook first appeared in print in "A Set of Psalm and Hymn Tunes" in 1805 and the original text as stated earlier was "Grace 'tis a Charming Sound". Cranbrook was later used as the tune for While Sheperds and then for Ilkley Moor

Infact While Sheperds has been set to more different tunes than any of the other traditional carols. Among the tunes that have been used are "The Song of the Angels"-Michael Beasley 1746, "Bethlehem"- William Biillings 1778, "Old Foster"-John Foster 1817,"Pentonville"- William Marsh 1816 and "Winchester Old"-the tune most commonly heard today.
The Grace Darling Singers sing While Sheperds to many different tunes and inlude at least two different versions in each of their concerts. We have considered doing a whole concert of While Sheperds to different tunes - but that's probably a bit too much.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:21 AM

Our annual carol night in the pub on the last Sunday before Christmas always has three While Shepherds, to: Winchester Old, Sweet Bells and, of course as the last carol, in true West Country fashion, to Lyngham!
Tom


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Cats
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:02 AM

In Padstow we sing Shepherds to Lyngham and Zadoc. One of my favoutite settings is to Pentonville. Also try
Belmont
Chant Number One
Cranbrook
Crimond (usually all six verses)
Liverpool
Lloyd
Song of the Angels (Old Glory)


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: a gud ole bwoy
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:19 AM

I like singing carols West Gallery style. While Shepherds sung to 'Old Foster' is great, especially when none instrumentallists sing along with the symphony.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Bernard
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:25 AM

Should perrraps explain that 'symphony' in the context of West Gallery music means 'introduction'! It is often repeated between verses, too.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:51 AM

So, which kind person could provide me with sheet music for Cranbrook or Lyngham?


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 12:36 PM

Ummm... like I said, PM AlanG!!


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:01 PM

No need; both are easily found via (for example) Google. 'Cranbrook' is available as PDF at the link already provided by our masked 'guest' (and doubtless other places), while there is a PDF for 'Lyngham' at http://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=439.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:13 PM

Here in the Midlands we occasionally sing 'While Shepherds Watched' to a tune called 'Sweet Chiming Christmas Bells'. Better than the dirge that's usually sung.

http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/displaysong.php?songid=149

I don't know why that didn't come out as a blue clicky thingy.

I've always thought it was by Cornelius Whitehouse but I'm probably wrong.

My grandad used to have an organ in his living room (Ooh Matron!). I don't know what it was called but he used to have to pump air into the organ with his feet.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:38 PM

I don't think Greg is looking for a score, but the score - a subtle difference. The PDFs available are modern, without the information found on an original score...


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 01:56 PM

Greg will have to specify, then; but he did ask just for the tunes, not 'Shepherds' settings, so we don't yet know that there's any 'difference', subtle or otherwise.

I'd quite forgotten that I had posted 'Sweet Chiming Bells' to folkinfo, nearly six years ago now. That's the Stannington setting, copied from 'The Red Book': Jack Goodison's Collection of Local and Traditonal Carols; which also has settings for Old Foster, Old Foster/47th Psalm, Cranbrook, Pentonville, Sweet Christmas Bells, October, Lyngham, Crimond, Hail Chime On, Liverpool, and Lloyd. It's been reprinted again since the third edition of 2001, I think, and is certainly worth getting hold of.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:00 PM

I was really looking for original scores, or versions of carols actually sung in pubs with some traditional history. It is by no means clear(as is often the case) whether stuff on the internet is old, or modern arrangements.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:29 PM

I have on my lap a book I believe currently in print 'The Joy of Christmas' 2nd edn 2002. compiled and presented by 'Worrall Male Voice Choir', Sheffield. It would appear to contain all of the above-mentioned tunes/carols gleaned from all of the Sheffield area carol traditions. I think I got my copy off eBay.
Other than that Dave Eyre (Folkiedave) would be a useful contact, or a little more elusive perhaps but very knowledgeable on such matters, Dr Ian Russell at Aberdeen University.
I also have early sheet music for Ilkla Moor but not the carol. I'm not a big carol buff although I enjoy the Sheffield pub traditions when I can get there.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Bernard
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:39 PM

I thought "I've never actually seen a copy of said version, or a reference to it. Does a printed source exist? Anybody ever seen one?" was fairly clear... anyway, as I said, AlanG can definitely help in that respect!! I'm surprised he hasn't dropped in on this yet... I'll give him a nudge.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

Just to clarify, the above-mentioned Worrall book does contain the score of Cranbrook with the accompanying text of 'While Shepherds'. the first edn was 1982. I would imagine earlier versions of the sheet music would exist as some of the Sheffield pubs published their own repertoires at various stages. Dave Eyre or Ian Russell would be able to verify this.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: a gud ole bwoy
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:23 PM

For original scores you could of course always try the West Gallery Music Association. They have books, of scores with words, (transcibed from original manuscript books) which are for sale. Their 'Red book' might be useful in this case. Look at the WGMA web site for contact details.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 03:56 PM

My first experience of the Sheffield carols as they are known was about 1974 and I was at a pub which is no longer a "carolling hole" where they sang impromptu. A man gave me a set of words done on a "Gestetner" machine - in colour.

Then I picked up a few similar copies which people gave out at Dungworth. I picked another up at Worrall.

Then I went to Dungworth and got a number of various versions of the carols - but by that time I knew most of the words. The other copies of the words came into my hands and then (as I remember) the "red book" was published with the help of Whitbread Brewery in the Community scheme. The "red book" was called "Jack Goodison's collection of Local and Traditional Carols". It was dedicated to his wife who died in 1991 and was published in July (??!!) 1992.

I also have a copy of the carols done by Loxley Silver Methodist Band - two copies of carols by Bradfield Choral Society and another by Bradfield Evening Instute Choral Society.

My first "Blue Book" was published by Worral Male Voice Choir dates from 1982 - this was repeated in 2003. This is the one most people use nowadays. It includes 15 tunes for "While Shepherds".

The "red book" has 12 tunes to "WSWTFBN"; perhaps not many would know that there are also seven tunes to "Hark the Heralds Angels Sing". I can think of three tunes it is actually sung to.

Some of the early books have "strange" songs in them. E.G. "Miners Dream of Home". The reason for this (I think) is simple - on Boxing day there is also a "sing" but this is a bit "free and easy" and people sing/sang their party piece - one of these was "MDOH" and that is how it came to be in the books. When I first came to live in this area of Sheffield they still sang in one of the pubs at Sunday lunch-time and ended with songs like that.

HTH.

Dave


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 04:14 PM

From the early 20th century until at least the 1960's, "The Miner's Dream of Home" was sung at doors on New Year's Eve in Sheffield - it functioned as a New Year carol. I heard it as a child in the north of Sheffield and still remember the sound of it echoing down a very frosty street when I was in bed.

Georgina


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: gnomad
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:20 PM

Those interested in the S Yorkshire carol tradition might be interested in some live recordings: legal (paid for) downloads can be found at Smithsonian Global Sound. I don't think they have the Ilkley Moor version, but there are some of the other WSWTFBN versions mentioned, plus other carols.

Quality is better than you might expect of archival recordings made under far-from-ideal conditions, not perfect but still well worth a listen.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 08:36 PM

The latest edition of Living Tradition turned up the other day. It includes a feature, 'The Yorkshire Pub Carol Tradition' (we tend to call them 'The Sheffield Carols' or 'The Local Carols') by Debbie Koritsas; a decent introduction on the whole. The photos don't seem to be credited: I think Doc Rowe took them. The article includes a link to Dr Ian Russell's Village Carols website, which among a lot of useful information provides a link to the South Riding Folk Arts Network site, where a list of sings in the area is placed each year. The current schedule, which will be added to and revised as new information comes in over the next few weeks, is as always compiled by Pat Malham and can be seen at

http://www.folk-network.com/events/2008/carols_08.html.

Debbie evidently missed that, but nobody is perfect.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: r.padgett
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 03:54 AM

Well there you have it ~ all the big players all on together except Dr Russell and up to date including LT hyperlinks

I missed this as I was at Sheffield folk festival!!

First Dungworth sing (Carols) first Sunday after Armistice day I believe

Not sure last time of busses to US!

Ray


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 04:21 AM

Thanks very much to everybody, very interesting.I am chasing the various leads. But still havent found a Cranbrook with any vouched for history!


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 05:01 AM

Cranbrook was written by the Canterbury shoemaker Thomas Clark. There's a biography of his life written by the late Wallace Harvey - out of print now, but secondhand copies can still be obtained fairly cheaply (try The Chaucer Bookshop, Beer Cart Lane, Canterbury, which even has a website; or Baggins Book Bazaar in Rochester).

I think it says that Ilkla Moor was written by a Yorkshire-based glee club in C19 to that tune - possibly purloined from the Methodist Hymn Book, who nows?


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:25 AM

Okay Greg,
I have Arnold Kellett's excellent book on my lap.
Of relevance to your quest. It has a whole chapter on the life story of Thomas Clark 1775-1859 who wrote Cranbrook. Although first published in 1805 it was probably written a couple of years earlier and named after the village of Cranbrook in Kent.

'Precisely who the originators of the song were, and where they came from, is still confused and controversial...... Much is still mysterious, and has defeated some of the most dedicated investigators. In 1958 a member of the University Song Book Committee stated that in 1922 the committee had tried, and failed, to track down the origin of the song, and that experts like Frank Kidson and Professor F W Moorman had also been baffled by it.
But we can at least clear the ground by looking at the most widely accepted tradition that OIM came into being as a result of an incident that took place during a ramble and picnic on the moor. It is further generally believed that the ramblers were all on a chapel choir outing, from one of the towns in the industrial West Riding.'

P68 'Cranbrook was also familiar as a Christmas carol when used, particularly in Yorkshire, for 'WSW'. Indeed according to Dr Pat Morris and Dr Ian Russell, it was the most commonly used tune for this carol until 'Winchester Old' was popularised by Hymns Ancient and Modern from 1861 onwards.'
'OIM was for many years--perhaps for more than half a century--a matter of oral tradition. The nearest approach to anything historical is in the earliest published version of the song--both words and music--which appeared in 1916.
This rarely seen version, entitled 'On Ilkla Moor baht 'at'--a dialect song from the West Riding, set to 'Cranbrook', was published in September 1916 as sheet music by J Wood and Sons of Huddersfield jointly with Novello and Co, London. It was collected by Charles H Dennis, a schools inspector who lived at Fartown, Huddersfield. He was something of a composer himself, having written in 1914 the anthem 'Huddersfield: A Song of Home' which was sung in local schools.......Dennis was particularly fond of OIM, both words and music, and went round collecting versions 'from those who have sung them----in some cases for very many years.'

Kellett then goes on to translate, explain, and dissect the earliest published version in great detail.

He then prints a version which appeared words only in a 1915 newspaper The Yorkshire Weekly Post, suppied by Mr A S Robinson of Redcar, words as we sang them in Leeds a good many years ago.

He then goes on to look at counter claims for its origin as being on 'Baildon Moor' . There is a claim that a John Ellis of Bradford wrote it! There are also claims on dialectic terms that it came from the Halifax area. Dennis apparently conjectures a date of origin around 1856.

In my own collection of Yorkshire sheet music and 78s I have 4 items of relevance, the original 1916 sheet music as mentioned above and an undated copy derived from this, published by Banks of County Arcade, Leeds.
The 78s are Broadcast Twelve Series 5128-B as sung by The Sheffield Orpheus Choir. (Traditional)and Rex 78 8145-B sung by Lesley Sarony and vocal quartette, again designated traditional.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 07:43 AM

My late father-in-law used to be go out on the streets door to door with a brass band in East Lancs at Christmas. He had a theory that the usual local tune "Shaw Lane" (not the only local one) was usurped by "Winchester Old" as a tune for "While Shepherds" mainly because "Winchester Old" was over quicker!


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Nov 08 - 08:20 AM

Very plausible!!

;o)


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,GUEST Sally Drage
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM

I research west gallery music / psalmody, and direct the Grace Darling Singers. If its of use, I've got a copy of Clark's original and have also made a faithful modern edition, with either the original words 'Grace 'tis a charming sound', or 'WSWTF'.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 05:51 AM

Sally Drage:
Hi, Sally, thanks for responding. Would like to get in touch, but have lost your address. I would very much like to see the stuff you mention.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Bobby Bob, Ellan Vannin
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 08:55 AM

Greg started this thread with the comment that: 'It is commonly said that Ilkley Moor Baht'at(sp?) was a sort of "made up on the back seat of a bus" bit of fun using a setting of "While Shepherds Watched" as the tune.'

I can't put my hand on a specific reference to this, but there was a suggestion that singers practising for church or chapel didn't want to profane the sentiment of the proper words by stopping and starting and concentrating on getting the singing right. To avoid this, they sang secular lyrics to practise the musical side of things, using the religious lyrics at the appropriate place and time.

This would be the reason for the production of Ilkley Mooar Baht 'At to a tune used for While Shepherds Watched..., but it obviously developed a popularity of its own.

If true, it would be interesting to know what other songs have emerged from the same source. Rugby songs have been based on hymns, of course - I don't know how secular choristers and choirmasters might have been inclined to go.

Regards,

Bobby Bob


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Nov 08 - 04:41 PM

Thanks, Sally - I guess Alan pointed you in this direction!!

;o)


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Nov 08 - 06:19 AM

I can't put my hand on a specific reference to this, but there was a suggestion that singers practising for church or chapel didn't want to profane the sentiment of the proper words by stopping and starting and concentrating on getting the singing right. To avoid this, they sang secular lyrics to practise the musical side of things, using the religious lyrics at the appropriate place and time.

This is certainly true. My wife comes from a small Scottish village in the South West - where her father was minister.

They used a song called the "Old Seceder Cat". Elsewhere this is sung to Lyngham - a tune also used for WSWTFBN on a regular basis.

There's a link and details here:

here


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,jp
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 09:59 AM

It's wickid that Shepherds watching tune. Love it, love it.
Peace


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Anglo
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 11:23 PM

For the record, a short sound clip of Shepherds to the Cranbrook tune, recorded in the mid-70s, can be heard here:

SPLAT

(You may think it's a bit fast :-)


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 10:58 AM

We occasionally used to sing it to the tune of 'Sweet Lovely Nancy'.

Incidentally, the usual 'hymn' version of Psalm 23 fits nicely to Ilkley Moor as well. Sacrilege I know, but the line 'Goodness and mercy all my life - all my life!' always make me giggle.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Trevor
Date: 14 Jan 09 - 11:00 AM

Soz, that was me with my cookie up the spout!


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Pete M.
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:13 PM

Hi, I have been trying unsuccessfully to find the SATB sheet music for While Shepherds Watched their flocks (Pentonville). As sung by the brilliant Wak Mar Proper choir on the Coope, Boyes Simpson cd Kerstbestand. Can anybody out there help?


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Jim H
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:03 PM

You could try the dots for RM7 at

http://www.francisroads.co.uk/music/numlist.htm

but you'll have to change the words !


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 08:45 PM

Here are a couple of uses of hymn tunes that are clearly in the same tradition, and that appear in the University of St Andrews Students' Union Song book (1958; I was there at the time, and we sang them both):

THE PRESBYTERIAN CAT
(Tune: Crimond)

There was a Presbyterian cat
    Went searching for her prey,
She foond a moose within the hoose,
    Upon the Sawbath day.

The people all were horrifiet,
    And they were grieved sair;
And straightway led that wicked cat
    Before the ministair.

The ministair was horrifiet,
    And unto her did say:
"O naughty cat, to catch a moose
    Upon the Sawbath day."

"The Sawbath's been, frae days of yore,
    An institution."
So they straightway led that wicked cat
    To execution.

Moral
The higher up the plum tree grows,
    The sweeter grow the plums;
The more the cobbler plies his trade,
    The broader grows his thumbs.

FATHER'S PANTS
(Tune: Cwm Rhondda)

||: You must eat if you are hungry,
You must drink when you are dry. :||
You must rest when you are weary,
||: Don't stop breathing or you'll die. :||

||: Father's pants will soon fit Willy,
Will 'e wear them will 'e 'ell. :||
Will 'e wear them, will 'e wear them,
||: Will 'e wear them, will 'e 'ell. :||

"Ilkley Moor" is there too, but the tune is not credited.

In 1959 I brought "Father's Pants" to Cambridge, Mass., where for some years it was sung at every party of the MIT Outing Club.


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Subject: ADD: While Shepherds Watched
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 09:25 PM

Jon Boden's Dec 4 choice for A Folk Song a Day is "While Shepherds Watched." He claims the tune he uses is "Pentonville," but it doesn't sound like the "Pentonville" at The Cyber Hymnal. The Cyber Hymnal page on "Shepherds" is here (click).

Anybody know the names of the tunes commonly sung with these lyrics?

-Joe-

Lyrics from Cyberhymnal:

WHILE SHEPHERDS WATCHED THEIR FLOCKS
(Words: Nahum Tate, 1700. Music: Handel, 1728)

While shepherds watched their flocks by night,
All seated on the ground,
The angel of the Lord came down,
And glory shone around,
And glory shone around.

Fear not! said he, for mighty dread
Had seized their troubled mind.
“Glad tidings of great joy I bring
To you and all mankind
To you and all mankind.

“To you, in David’s town, this day
Is born of David’s line
A Savior, who is Christ the Lord,
And this shall be the sign,
And this shall be the sign.

The heavenly Babe you there shall find
To human view displayed,
All meanly wrapped in swathing bands,
And in a manger laid,
And in a manger laid.

Thus spake the seraph and forthwith
Appeared a shining throng
Of angels praising God on high,
Who thus addressed their song,
Who thus addressed their song:

All glory be to God on high,
And to the Earth be peace;
Good will henceforth from Heav’n to men
Begin and never cease,
Begin and never cease!


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 10:18 PM

Joe, some sheet music here:
http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/HTML/index_of_carols_uz.htm

The song is no. 33 in the Oxford Book of Carols, Dearmer, Vaughan Williams and Martin Shaw 1928 (1947) edition.
A note here: "......is here printed for the sake of the traditional tune proper to the words. It is, of course, now usually sung to 'Winchester Old' from Este's Psalter of 1592. The words first appeared in the Supplement to the New version, the metrical version of the Psalms called 'Tate and Brady', by our forefathers, which appeared in 1696....."

From this, I presume 'Winchester Old' is the tune now usually sung, and that the music with No. 33 is the 'traditional tune..'

Dunno if this will help, but in carol sings recently, I hear tunes that are sometimes different from those I learned as a child.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:41 AM

Joe, hymn tune names, like song titles, aren't always unique, particularly between different regions or congregations. If you'll notice, the Pentonville tune you linked (for the hymn "Like Sheep We Went Astray") was written by Frances Linley, while the Pentonville tune which the Boden entry linked to was written by William Marsh, late 18th c.

As far as tune names for various settings of this text, here's a list to get you started:

"Winchester Old", after Christopher Tye; Este's Psalt­er, 1592; the most common tune nowadays [NOBC 46.I]
"Chestnut" major-mode variant of "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" [NOBC 46.III] (1)
"While Shepherds, (Old)", aka. "Ould Zaddok"; coll. Ralph Dunstan, 1929. Supposedly very old.
"Crüger", Johann Crüger, 1657.
"Christ­mas", George F. Han­del, 1728. [NOBC 46.II]
Psalm 8 setting by Michael Beesley, 1748; used by 1760s. [NOBC 46.IV]
"Crowley", Psalm I in Evison's Psalter, 1751; coll. Ralph Dunstan.
"Lob Gott, ihr Christen all gleich", by Nic. Herman, harm. by J.S. Bach
"Sherburne", Daniel Read, 1783; in The Sacred Harp, 1844.
setting by Supply Belcher, 1794.
"Martyrdom", Hugh Wilson, 1800.
"New Tregoney", ca. 1800-1810; coll. Ralph Dunstan.
"Cranbrook", Thomas Clark, 1805; used for "On Ilkley Moor Baht 'at" [NOBC 46.V]
"(Old) Foster", John Foster, ca. 1820. [NOBC 46.VII]
minor setting from Davies Gilbert, 1822.
setting ca. 1830, pub. Ralph Dunstan, 1925. [NOBC 46.VI]
setting by Alexis Theodore Lyoff, 1833
"Zerah", Lowell Mason, 1837.
"Bethlehem" by G. W. Fink, 1842.
"Carol", Richard Storrs Willis, 1850 = "It Came Upon the Midnight Clear"
setting from John Clark Hollister, The Sunday-School Service and Tune Book, 1863/5, #9
"Glory Shone Around", shape note setting
"Bethlehem", trad. arr. Sir Arthur Sullivan, 1874; tune aka. "Gabriel"
"Noel", trad. adapted by Sir Arthur Sullivan, 1874 for "It Came Upon..."
"Shackelford", Fred­er­ick H. Chees­wright, 1889
setting or arrangement by H.S. Irons, 1894.
setting by B.S. Barclay, in the American Memory online collection.
"Vision of the Shepherds", A.P. Howard, by 1916.
"Angel['s] Carol" by J. Clarke, by 1918. [?= "St. Magnus"]
"Lydia", from W.A. Pickard-Cambridge, _A Collection of Dorset Carols_, 1926.
"While Shepherds, (New)", coll. Ralph Dunstan, pub. 1929.
"The Song of the Angels", William Knapp.
"Shining Star", Terry Wootten, 1988; The Sacred Harp, 1991.

Hymnary.org also lists these:
FLENSBURG [by 1874]
GABRIEL (trad.)
HAMPTON (Robinson)
HITCHEN CAROL
SHEPHERDS (Sullivan) [?= "Bethlehem", aka. "Gabriel"]
ST. MAGNUS (Clarke) [?= "Angel Carol"]
ST. MARTIN'S (Old)

One of the references given in the Wikipedia entry also lists these:
St. Ursula
Southwell, by 1871
Anglia, by 1874
Nottingham, by 1874
Christmas Bells, by 1917
Northrup
St. George
Lyngham
Hampton

Of course, some of these entries and names may refer to the same tune.

NOBC = The New Oxford Book of Carols (Keyte and Parrott). The authors mention that the 1708 edition of the Supplement gave 75 tunes for use with 12 texts and 26 alternative psalm translations. "While shepherds watched" was there set to "St. James"
"but with the rubric 'or any other tune of 8 and 6 syllables [i.e. in common measure]' ('Winchester' is given with Psalm 84, 'O God of hosts, the mighty Lord'.) The now familiar conjunction of tune and text is found in Hymns Ancient and Modern (1861)."

Thus they opine that people may have sung the text (in mix and match fashion) to the "Old Winchester" tune as early as 1708. It is unclear if the "St. James" setting was given previously, particularly with the text's first appearance in the 1700 edition of the Supplement. In any case, "Old Winchester" doesn't appear explicitly paired with "While shepherds watched" until 1861, and the authors further state that "Chestnut" was the most popular setting prior to the 20th century.

To give slightly more info on the tune "Christmas", it was adapted from the aria "Non vi piaque ingiusti dei" in Händel's opera Siroe, Rè di Persia. Keyte and Parrott suspect that Lowell Mason prepared the arrangement.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:16 PM

This is the tune known as Pentonville in South Yorkshire.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Cats
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:53 PM

In Padstow we sing it to Lyngham, Cranbrook (sounds a biy like Ilkley Moor) and my favourite Zadoc which sounds a bit like New Jerusalem


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM

Some notes on the list of settings I posted:

The Supply Belcher setting was titled "Carol".

"Flensburg" was written by Louis (Ludvig) Spohr (1784-1859) and harmonized by Joseph Barnby, 1867. You may hear it here: "My God I Love Thee"

"Lydia" was written by Thomas Phillips (1735-1807).

In the Hymnary.org list, "Shepherds" is Sir Arthur Sullivan's arrangement "Bethlehem" of the traditional "Gabriel". "Noel" is his arrangement originally for "It Came Upon the Midnight Clear". The tune is also known as "Eardisley" or "Gerard", probably a variant of "Dives and Lazarus".

"Hampton", written by McNeil Robinson II, b.1943, appears in The Hymnal 1982, #95.

"Hitchen Carol" is an English traditional melody, but I found no more about it.

"St. Magnus" is indeed Clarke's "Angel's Carol", first published in John Playford's Divine Companion, 1707; it was originally used for Psalm 117, and was first combined with the "While Shepherds" text in the 1868 Appendix to Hymns Ancient and Modern.

"St. Martin's" was written by William Tans'ur, 1740, and is used for at least six other hymns.

"St. Ursula", by Frederick Westlake, Hymns and Sac­red Songs for the Year, Part I, 1863.

"Southwell", by Herbert Stephen Irons, 1861. May be the same as the Irons arrangment listed previously.

"Nottingham" = "St. Magnus"/"Angel's Carol" (Jeremiah Clarke)

"Christmas Bells", from "The old year's long campaign over", by Samuel John Stone (1839-1900).

"Northrup", by Abraham Northrop (1863-1939), by 1906.

"St. George" may be the one written by Henry J. Gauntlett, 1848.

"Lyngham [Desert]", by Thom­as Jar­man, cir­ca 1803.


Additions:

"Sweet Chiming Bells", the Tate text with an interpolated and unrelated chorus.

William Billings wrote two settings:
"Bethlehem", The Singing Master's Assistant, 1778.
"Charleston", 1770, titled "A Hymn for Christmas".
He also wrote another setting "Emanuel" to a text of his own, a fanciful revamping of Tate's text.

"New Bethlehem", by Edward French, The Stoughton Musical Society's Centennial Collection of Sacred Music, 1878.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Captain Farrell
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 05:23 PM

Of course the favourite is going to be one you sing in your local village.Delph uses quite a few my particular one is Burnet.If any one knows of its use anywhere else I would love hear from you.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: MG John
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:13 AM

The tune On Ilkley Moor Bah Tat was used for this hymn at our local Church last week (Middleton On The Wolds, East Yorkshire) The Organist particularly likes this version and it was mentioned that the tune was the original one for While Shepherds Watch Their flocks By Night.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: MG John
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 06:15 AM

Sorry, I meant to say 'Carol'.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 07:21 AM

Does anyone know for sure if the tune used in Watchet, Somerset is the same as the Dunster one?
I don't know if it has been sung officially in St Decuman's in Watchet since I last heard it in the 1960s. When my father was choirmaster there he quietly let it drop out of ciculation as he thought it was rather boring!


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 10 Nov 14 - 03:40 PM

From Wikipedia

Thomas Clark (1775–1859) was a Canterbury shoemaker (cordwainer) and a prolific composer of West Gallery music, especially for the Nonconformist churches of the South East of England. Sally Drage, writing in the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, notes that he was 'particularly influential as the composer of early Sunday School collections'.

The best-known of his hymn tunes is Cranbrook: it was originally set to the words 'Grace 'tis a charming sound' written by Philip Doddridge, and published in Clark's first book A Sett of Psalm & Hymn Tunes [1805].

Two other tunes by Clark were included in the 1933 Methodist Hymn Book with Tunes: they are Crediton (tune 565), which was first published in Clark's Second Set of Psalm Tunes ... with symphonies and an instrumental bass, adapted to the use of country choirs [c1807], and Warsaw (tune 606), which was first published in his Third Set of Psalm & Hymn Tunes [1807].

He also wrote the tune Antioch for Joy to the World, the Saviour comes (Ps98 IW).

Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Artful Codger Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:41 AM

Joe; If you'll notice, the Pentonville tune you linked (for the hymn "Like Sheep We Went Astray") was written by Frances Linley, while the Pentonville tune which the Boden entry linked to was written by William Marsh, late 18th C.

From Old and New London: Volume 2 by Walter Thornbury 1878

"Mr. Francis Linley, organist of Pentonville Chapel," says Caulfield, in his "Portraits," "was blind from his birth. His greatest amusement was to explore churchyards, and with his fingers trace out memorials of the dead from tombstones; indeed, the fineness of his touch would lead him to know a book from the lettering on the back of a volume; and he could, without a guide, make his way throughout the bustling streets of London."

From Roding Music

My soul and spirit, filled with joy; This metrical paraphrase of the Evensong Canticle Magnificat Anima mea Dominum was published in 1700 as a supplement to the New Version of the Metrical Psalms first issued by Tate and Brady in 1696.

It is set to the tune Pentonville by William Marsh (c1780-1805+) of Canterbury, a contemporary and associate of Thomas Clark. It was published in 1816.

The florid contrapuntal style of this tune is typical of the period. Unlike earlier 18th Century tunes, the air or main tune is now in the soprano part.


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: GUEST,Guest/Mike
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 12:00 PM

Fantastic amount of interesting information here, does anyone know of any other popular tunes (ref. above: Supercalifragilistic and House of rising sun)


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Subject: RE: While Shepherds Watched/Ilkley Moor
From: Joe_F
Date: 25 Aug 15 - 03:13 PM

_Arise and Hail!_, collected by Bruce A. Randall, has it to a tune called Otford (as well as Cranbrook & Sherburne).

Does "While Shepherds Watch" hold the record for the number of tunes one hymn has attracted?


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