HYMNS and Folk Tunes?

Subject: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 07:59 AM

I remember well my disgust at school when favorite hymns were presented with different tunes, it didn't work..... Interestingly I later found out that most of the tunes I liked the best were actually 'stolen' from the English folk tradition and credited to famous composers like Vaughan Williams etc. Some things never change do they?

Does anyone out there know of any examples of folk tunes being used as hymns?

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Ritchie
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 08:58 AM

I once went to see Vin Garbutt , who explained how to write a song...you either come up with a tune and then write the words to fit the tune or write the words and then... come up with the tune...now then,He then went on to explain that He preferred to pick a well known song and write his words to it and then change the tune accordingly So He wrote his song to the tune of 'Jesu Joy Of Mans Desiring' which I'm sure you'll agree is a beautiful piece of work and which as He stated could not be bettered.. However not only was it a lovely tune it is very hard to play and sing at the same time so he had to sing the song unaccompanied ,which I may add he did very well.

Almost holistic in fact...although I was drinking 'the brown dog' that night if my memory serves me well.

love and happiness

Ritchie

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 12:20 PM

Good topic. We talked about this some in a thread called Songs of Faith. One hymn mentioned there is "I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say" done to the tune of "Star of County Down." Another is "Be Thou My Vision," done to the tune of an old Irish song called "Slane." I don't believe anybody posted the lyrics to "Slane." Anybody got 'em?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: stonejohn
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 12:33 PM

Don't forget "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" which Martin Luther is supposed to have written to the tune of a German drinking song; possibly learned in his local brauhaus. I'll check my collection of hymnbooks and see if there's more. check my thread, would you please, "nobody knows this song". I need this info for a play I'm writing.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Nathan Sarvis
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 05:14 PM

A few more here, "What Wondrous Love is This" gets its tune from "My Name is Captain Kidd and I Sailed" Several hymns have been set to "The Ashgrove" - The one I (almost) remember without a hymnal in front of me is called "The Master Has Come." Another hymn that we sang a lot in the country churches I grew up in is "The Lily of the Valley" which uses the versatile tune to such standards as "Little Old Log Cabin In the Lane" "Little Old Sod Shanty on My Claim" and "Little Joe the Wrangler"

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 05:32 PM

"What Child Is This?" is sung to Greensleeves; One melody used for Asleep in a Manger is Flow Gently Sweet Afton. Or don't carols count as hymns?

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: alison
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 07:34 PM

Hi,

Here's one to the tune "slane". The more usual one to that tune is "Be Thou my vision", I'll go look for it now.

Slainte

alison

Lord of all hopefulness

Lord of all hopefulness, Lord of all joy,
Whose trust, ever childlike, no cares can destroy,
Be there at our waking, and give us, we pray,
Your bliss in our hearts, Lord, at the break of the day.

Lord of all eagerness, Lord of all faith,
Whose strong hands were skilled at the plane and the lathe,
Be there at our labors, and give us, we pray,
Your strength in our hearts, Lord at the noon of the day.

Lord of all kindliness, Lord of all grace,
Your hands swift to welcome, your arms to embrace,
Be there at our homing, and give us, we pray,
Your love in our hearts, Lord, at the eve of the day.

Lord of all gentleness, Lord of all calm,
Whose voice is contentment, whose presence is balm,
Be there at our sleeping, and give us, we pray,
Your peace in our hearts, Lord, at the end of the day.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: alison
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 07:44 PM

Hi,

Here we go. This is my favourite hymn. Any time I was playing the organ this always got included. Now I know I've posted the tune somewhere before so if someone could be a sweetie and find it, because I'm off to the beach for a few days.

Be Thou My Vision

Be Thou my vision, oh Lord of my heart
Nought be all else to me, save that Thou art
Thou my best thought by day or by night
Waking or sleeping, Thou presence my light

Be Thou my wisdom, be Thou my true word
I ever with Thee and Thou with me Lord
Thou my great Father and I Thy true son
Thou in me dwelling and I with Thee one

Be Thou my battleshield, sword for the fight
Be Thou my dignity, Thou my delight
Thou my soul shelter, and Thou my high tower
Raise Thou me heavenward, oh power of my power

Riches I need not, nor man's empty praise
Thou mine inheritance now and always
Thou and Thou only though first in my heart
High king of heaven my treasure Thou art

High king of heaven, after vicotry won
May I reach heavens' joys, O bright heaven' sun
Heart of my own heart, whatever befall
Still be my vision, O ruler of all

According to the hymn book,

Ancient Irish, tr. Mary Byrne 1880-1931,
versified Eleanor Hull, 1860-1935

Van Morrison does a slightly different version on the CD "Songs to the Silence".

Slainte

alison

Click here for the tune
Tune link posted by "A. Sweetie."

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: alison
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 07:54 PM

Hi,

Found it. Now I'm off to make sand castles.

Be Thou my vision thread

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 08:01 PM

Oh ther're so many of them... Lord of all Hopefulness = Banks of the Bann I'll think again before tomorrow night, but there are a huge amount of dance tunes, so many 'English' carols are 16th century French dance tunes - 'Ding Dong Merrily on High' is a stamping good one to which I used to dance Border Morris;; ' O Little Town of Bethlehem'. Give me time to think... '29th May' is 'All things Bright & Beautiful' ....I could bore you on this one!!

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: rich r
Date: 03 Nov 98 - 11:02 PM

Dipping into the slightly more obscure, the old EUB Hymnal contains a song called "My Heart Looks In Faith" the tune for which is listed as a Chinese chantey "Song of the Yangtze Boatman". The Methodist Hymnal includes folk tune listings in its index of composers, authors and sources. The great methodist hymnwriter Charles Wesley was a wordsmith and not a tunesmith. Thus many of his hymns are put to tunes by others, some of which are folk tunes. Here are a couple from the 1964 edition.

"Come, Let Us, Who in Chirst Believe" tune Campmeeting (early American)
"How Happy Every Child of Grace" tune Cleansing Fountain (American usually associated with "There Is a Fountain Filled With Blood")

The traditional English tune "Forest Green" is listed for 5 hymns:
All Beautiful the March of Days (Frances Wile)
I Sing the Almight Power of God (Isaac Watts)
O Little Town of Bethlehem (Phillips Brooks)
And Have the Bright Immensities (H C Robbins)
Eternal God Whose Power Upholds (Henry Tweedy)

I am sure there are more

rich r

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 02:41 AM

Jo Taylor Can you please bore me some more?

'Lord of all hopefulness' another of my favourites.

Is the one with the hook 'To be a pilgrim' another one?

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: DWDitty
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 06:06 AM

Despite what some may think, Cat Stevens did not write "Morning Has Broken"
DW

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 12:12 PM

Yeah, DW, but my hymnal says "Morning Has Broken" was copyrighted in 1957 by songwriter Eleanor Farjeon (1881-1965). Seems like the song should be much older. The music is a traditional Gaelic melody, "BUNESSAN, 5 5 5 4 D." Anybody know the story behind this song? Anything about the original song, "Bunessan"? And what exactly does 5554D mean (the "D" is what throws me)?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From:
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 12:20 PM

No one has mentioned There is a Balm in Gilead, which I think is an American folk tune.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: stonejohn
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 01:16 PM

Joe, 5554D refers to the syllables in each line, count 'em: Morn-ing has bro-ken, etc. the "D" means doubled, so, the verse goes 5,5,5,4 twice

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Pete M
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 04:32 PM

"Morning has broken - cannot be mended" normally sung as loudly and out of key as possible to alert fellow sufferers from the night before! Learnt while climbing.

Pete M

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 06:09 PM

Hmmm...or should that be hymmm...I haven't had time to think today, Shambles. I'm not suer about 'To be a Pilgrim' but it certainly should be; Maddy Prior does a cracking good version of it, also 'Harvest Home' (not the tune, the hymn we sing at harvest festivals in jolly old England. Will try and find some time to think tomorrow, I'd had lots of wine last night.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: T in Olkahoma
Date: 09 Nov 98 - 01:44 PM

The tune I know for "Wondrous Love" differs from the tune "Captain Kidd", though they have the same metrical structure (they are both of the "Captain Kidd" type)

In The Southern Harmony (1854) both tunes occur. The words sung to "Captain Kidd" are "In all the world below."

An Irish song, "O the praties they grow small" has a closely-related meter. The meter could be made identical by repeating some words. Instead of "O the praties they grow small over here", sing "O the praties they grow small over here, over here."

Another folk tune collected by Vaughan Williams and now occurring in some hymnals in "The Truth from Above".

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: ana
Date: 09 Nov 98 - 02:33 PM

Interesting thread... particularly given that its almost xmas!. Coventry Carol is a lovely 4 part a capella, any one got any other gems? Thanks, ana.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Cuilionn
Date: 10 Nov 98 - 07:13 PM

Aye tae th' note aboot Charles Wesley, guid-naturit stealer o' th' common folks' tunes! He maun hae tuik a hantle o' drinkin' sangs an' set holy wairds tae them, I'm thinkin'. If ye read th' social history o' th' Sassun folk aroond that plaice an' time (England, mid 1700s) ye'd understand richt weel why he did! As a wee seminary scholar mysel', I've been lairnin' a fair bit aboot sic things o' late, an' thocht ye micht tak some delicht in readin' some o' Wesley's original "Directions for Singing," which are printit up in th' front o' ilka an' ev'ry Methodist hymnal frae his time tae oors:

I. Learn these tunes before you learn any others; afterwards learn as many as you please.

II. Sing them exactly as they are printed here; without altering or mending them at all; and if you have learned to sing them otherwise, unlearn it as soon as you can. ...

IV. Sing lustily and with a good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, than when you sung the songs of Satan.

(There are seven o' these wee admonitions, total. Ye see my ain favorites here, but the ithers mak for guid readin' as weel. ye ken whaur tae find 'em...)

An beannacht leibh,

‹Cuilionn

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: rich r
Date: 10 Nov 98 - 11:36 PM

And I am also fond of Wesley V

V. Sing modestly. do not bawl, so as to be heard or distinct from the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear melodious sound.

And it should also be noted that the first hymn in all Methodist hymnals is Wesley's " O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing"

Many of Wesley's hymns are sung to tunes that were written by others either contemporaneously or in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. The question arises as to whether there has been a significant reverse process, i.e. tunes that were originally created for specific hymns that have jumped the other way and been adopted as tunes for folk songs.

rich r

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 11 Nov 98 - 08:01 AM

'To be a pilgrim' (Who would true valour see, let him come hither, etc.) is a variant of The Blacksmith (A blacksmith courted me, nine months and better ...), which is in the English Book of Penguin Folk Songs and was recorded by Steeleye Span when I was a little lad of twenty-odd summers. I sometimes use the tune for Blacksmith to confuse people: sing the second and third lines to the second line of the tune instead of the first and second to the first (does this make sense?); it somehow seems more angry and less spiteful that way.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Dick Wisan
Date: 11 Nov 98 - 11:13 AM

A few weeks ago, I was caught in an interclickal stop on the TV by a choir singing something with a wonderful tune. Very failiar tune. Then I got it.. last line of every verse was "To revive us again".

Tune was "Hallelujah I'm a Bum" (& yes, they Hallelujaed in the Hymn, too). The "Hallelujay" and "to revive us again" suggest to me that it was a hymn first. Anybody know? Anybody know the words to the hymn version?

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Barbara
Date: 11 Nov 98 - 03:23 PM

I believe it says in the IWW Songbook that it was a hymn first, and was swiped by those folk (Like Pie in the Sky). Can't lay my hands on my copy right this moment.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: Lyr Add: REVIVE US AGAIN^^
From: rich r
Date: 11 Nov 98 - 06:50 PM

REVIVE US AGAIN

words: William P MacKay music: John J Husband

We praise the, o God! for the son of thy love,
For Jesus who died, and is now gone above.

CH: Hallelujah! Thine the glory; Hallelujah! Amen!
Hallelujah! Thine the glory; Revive us again.

We praise thee, o God! for thy spirit of light,
Who has shown us our Savior, and scattered our night.

All glory and praise to the Lamb that was slain,
Who has borne all our sins, and has cleansed every stain.

Revive us again; fill each heart with thy love;
May each soul be rekindled with fire from above.

I found the word and music in 3 different early 20th century hymnals. None of them listed a date.

Others using the tune and form.

Hallelujah, I'm a Ku Klux

When my old man said, I was hundred percent,
I sought out a kleagle and to him I went.
Hallelujah, I'm a Ku Klux, Hallelujah, amen,
Hallelujah I'm a Ku Klux, I belong to the Klan.

This is from : Hard Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit People by Lomax, Guthrie & Seeger. Could have been written by Woody but no credit is given.

In a totally different vein, Garrison Keillor has written and recorded "Hallelujah I'm A Cat"

rich r

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 May 02 - 10:02 PM

I would like some more examples as I have just stumbled across the irony of the legal situation here in the UK.

Singing or playing 'Slane' for example as part of a religous service, in a cold, ill-lit church, with no sanitary facilities or emergency exits, is public entertainment but exempts the premises from any licensing requirement.

Singing or playing the same tune for the sheer pleasure of doing so, in a cosy pub which is alrady subject to many safety inspections and conditions, is illegal without the licensee paying for a Public Entertainment Licence.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 04 May 02 - 10:24 PM

Vaughan Williams wrote an essay on a related subject (Info from HERE:

Vaughan Williams, Ralph. "The Influence of Folk-song on the Music of the Church." In National Music and Other Essays, ed. Michael Kennedy, 74-82. 2nd ed. London and New York: Oxford University Press, 1987.
The history of church music includes many borrowed folk tunes and contrafactions, from the Tonus peregrinus (foreign tune) of the Roman church to the use of popular tunes as hymns or chorales well past the Reformation.
Works: Tonus peregrinus (Gregorian chant) (76); Valet will ich dir geben (German chorale); O Filii et Filiae (Sequence) (77); Thomas Oliver: Helmsley (hymn tune) (77); Louis Bourgeois: Old Hundredth (hymn tune) (77), Old 113th (hymn tune). (RCL)

A number of English examples based on folk tunes can be obtained from The English Hymnal (Oxford, 1906, 1933; music editor was Vaughan Williams; see "English Traditional Melody" in "Index of Composers and Sources").

~Masato

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 04 May 02 - 11:18 PM

Several Christmas Carols (also found in hymnbooks):

O Little Town of Bethlehem - Forest Green Cyberhymnal page here

O Sing a Song of Bethlehem - Kingsfold Cyberhymnal page here.

On Christmas Night All Christians Sing - Sussex Carol Cyberhymnal page here

(I like Ralph Vaughan Williams too! Actually you can search any hymnbook or the Cyberhymnal for the tune names listed above. I think there are 5 hymns for each of the first two tunes listed above. I always read hymnals when I go to funerals and weddings at churches other than my own. The Episcopal Church seems to have at least twice as many RVW tunes as other Protestant churches. I suspect churches in England have even more.)

Continuing on...

When Christmas Morn is Dawning - Wir hatten gebaut - Mudcat thread here.

The Friendly Beasts - Orientis Partibus - Mudcat thread here.

Away in a Manger - Flow Gently Sweet Afton (mentioned above).

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 05 May 02 - 08:35 AM

A few others
The tune "Stenka Razin" aka "Volga Volga" aka "The Carnival is Over" is used for a hymn known as "Vaster than any Ocean" translated from Russian by Stuart K Hyne He also translated "How Great thou Art" from Russian although it was previously in Swedish. Was it a swedish folk tune originally , anyone know?

"Lord of the Dance" written by Sidney Carter as a folk tune was adopted as a hymn unaltered and is still sung as a folk tune.

"He's got the whole World in his Hands" a folk tune and a hymn

"Faith of Our Fathers" to the tune "Sawston" is credited to "Traditional"

The Hymn "Come & Praise the Lord" to the tune of "Michael Row the Boat Ashore"

The "Streets of Loredo" is used as a hymn tune in Scotland

Kenny B

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 May 02 - 01:31 PM

Slight Drift - There is that Micca favourite "Clementine" sung to the tune 'Cwm Rhondda'. What is not so easy is the reverse - "Arglwydd, arwain trwy'r anialwch" sung to the tune of 'Clementine'

The less said about what the average Rugby Club can do to a Hymn or Psalm the better.

Gareth

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 May 02 - 03:44 PM

Mention of "Slane" (the hymn tune) reminds me of my take on it. There is/ was a comic character (Barbarian hero in the mold of Conan) in the British comic 2000AD, called Slaine.
The similarity of character name and tune led me to:

SLAINE

Slaine stands alone 'gainst the murderous hordes,
Who attack him on horseback with axes and swords.
With bare hands and feet, he will fight for what's right.
He may be a hero, but he's not all that bright!

Slaine's home is South Waest and a long way away,
So he follows the sun in its course through the day.
His way he plots clear t'ward the pole star each night.
As I may have mentioned, He's not all that bright.

Unfortunately, the envisioned third verse never came to fruition. Ah well!

Nigel

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Lynn
Date: 05 May 02 - 04:46 PM

Kenny - If memory serves (as I don't have a hymnal with it handy), 'Lord of the Dance' was written to the tune of 'Simple Gifts', a Shaker hymn which has been around a good deal longer.

Aha! Found it in the current Presbyterian Hymnal, no. 302. The text was written in 1963 (titled here as 'I danced in the Morning') by Sydney Carter. The Shaker tune was harmonized by Carter. The tune, you may recall, was also used by Aaron Copland in his ballet "Appalachian Spring", which was written (I believe) in 1940.

"The Lone Wild Bird" uses the tune 'Prospect', which I believe to be American in origin.

"O God of Earth and Altar" uses a Welsh tune, 'Llangloffan'.

You can have lots of fun mixing and matching hymns with various tunes that have the same metric make-up (the number/letter designations after the tune name). Forest Green works with 'Mary Had a Little Lamb', if you ignore the pickup note.

Great thread!

Lynn

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 05 May 02 - 07:47 PM

Thanks Lynn, I sit corrected, happily ;>) Most hymns or psalms have "old" tunes, even older than me
My knowledge of ballet or even choreography is just tutu inadequate.
Sorry about that just my weird sense of humour. I haven't been able to work tutu into a coverstaion for ages as the ..... said to the bishop. TTFN :>)

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie)
Date: 05 May 02 - 09:18 PM

Possibly the most outstanding example for the subject of this thread is "This Land is Your Land," which Woody Guthrie wrote and set to this early-gospel tune:

O my loving brother, when the world's on fire,
Don't you want God's bosom to be your pillow
O hide me over in the rock of ages-
Rock of ages, cleft for me!

Woody of course used hymn-tunes for many of his songs. When questioned about this, once, he said, "Well if you're gonna steal, steal from the best!"

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Ringer
Date: 06 May 02 - 06:58 AM

So called "worship songs", usually projected on the wall, with fatuous non-rhyming (but sometimes near-rhyming) words irritate me beyond measure. There's one, some drivel about "you for me and me for you" from "The Iona Community", whatever that is, sung to a version of The Shearing's Not For You (aka Kelvin Grove), which turns an unbelievably lovely melody into a trite dotted-crotchet jingle.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Burke
Date: 06 May 02 - 06:22 PM

ON ILKLA MOOR BAHT HAT was a hymn tune (Cranbrook) used with "Grace 'tis a Charming Sound" or "While Shepherds watched..." before it was a folk song.

Does Danny Boy with "I cannot tell" fit what you're looking for?

As I understand it Vaughan Williams actively sought folk tunes to put with hymns. Many of those hymns in my hymnal give him arranging credit, but clearly say they are folk. The hard part is know how much he rearranged in his arrangements.

There are a lot of American folk hymns that do not necessarily show a link with a non-religious text. Amazing Grace comes to mind. Wondrous Love is another. How Firm a Foundation set to Nettleton.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 07 May 02 - 06:06 PM

John Barleycorn can be sung with a chorus to the tune of We Plough The Fields And Scatter, or did the Christians nick the tune like they nicked all the religious festivals

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 02 - 05:06 AM

Slightly of-topic, but:
I love the use of the hymn "Dear Lord and father of Mankind"
Unfortunately, its use rarely (if ever)make mention of the preceeding (umpteen) verses on The Brewing of Soma by J G Whittier

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 May 02 - 05:03 PM

This morning in church we sang The Gift of Love, Cyberhymnal version here. It is of course Waly, Waly or The River is Wide. I was so shocked I couldn't really decide how I felt about making a "hymn" (IMO with nondescipt words) out of such a beautiful melody. But I guess on balance it's nice to hear other people experiencing some of the tunes I love...and the spontaneous harmonies were beautiful.

The Blacksmith at the Contemplator site here is said to be Monksgate (if I understand correctly, collected by RV Williams) but I don't hear the same tune as He Who Would Valient Be at the Cyberhymnal here. (click on the Monksgate midi) (Kevin, you can click on RV Williams here and see various hymn tunes and the hymns with those tunes.)

Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones - Lasst Uns Erfreuen at the Cyberhymnal, here. RV Williams again!

Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken at the Cyberhymnal, here) - Austria - Croatian Folk Song arranged by Haydn 1797. This has been discussed here in various threads...I love the tune.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 12 May 02 - 05:06 PM

meant to say Shambles instead of Kevin, (didn't make the corrction draft)!

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: BlueSage
Date: 12 May 02 - 05:41 PM

There are many Mormon hymns that use folk melodies.

'Praise to the Man' = 'Scotland the Brave'

'Lord, dismiss us with Thy Blessing' = 'Go tell Aunt Rhody' (although the hymn book credits the melody to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, 1712-1778)

'Truth Reflects upon Our Senses' = 'Life railway to Heaven' (again the hymn book credits a Charles Davis Tillman, 1861-1943)

I wonder how many hymns turned into folk songs and then, in turn, became a hymn once more based on the folk song? Interesting thought!

Mike

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:24 AM

Interesting thread. In Germany we have the same phenomenon. In my hymn book I found several old tunes of late medieval folk songs and some love madrigals of the Renaissance, thence the real hits of the time.
The best known christmas carol, written by D. Martin Luther is "Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her" = Down from Heaven I'm coming, bringing you new tidings. It is in style, and using its tune, formed after the usual songs of the wandering minstrels starting "Aus fernen Landen komm ich her" = I'm coming from far lands and are bringing you new tidings".
The problem arises, in my humble opinion, because you have more poets than composers, and it is more difficult to write a tune than verses. So to make popular a text it is best to use a well known tune in propagating a new hymn; especially in the times of Reformation this technique was used.
Terminus technicus is contrafacture, using a non-church tune for a hymn and vice versa(!)

Wilfried

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Haruo
Date: 13 May 02 - 03:51 AM

Burke, do people actually sing How firm a foundation to NETTLETON? I don't think that fits well at all, but maybe I'm just not scanning it properly. FOUNDATION (aka BELLEVUE) is what I would have thought you meant.

Liland

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Burke
Date: 13 May 02 - 10:20 AM

Liland, you are correct, I was writing from memory. Bellevue is the tune with "How firm..." Nettleton is a different folk hymn tune widely used with "Come thou fount of every blessing."

There's a very popular Mormon Hymn that uses basically the same tune as "All is Well," but I don't know the Mormon hymn.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:33 AM

"We plough the fields and scatter" tune was definitely borrowed from "John Barleycorn" and not vice versa. If you were writing a hymn it's not a bad idea to start off with a tune which many of the congregation would already know.

Mind you some hymn tunes have gone the other way. "On Ilkley Moor Baht 'At" is sung to a hymn tune called "Cranbrook" written by Thomas Clark - it was originally used for "While Shepherds Watched". Then of course Sydney Carter borrowed the tune of the Shaker hymn "Simple Gifts" for his song "Lord of the Dance" - although you could classify his song as another hymn.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Trevor
Date: 13 May 02 - 11:45 AM

Didn't Steeleye also record 'Our Captain cried "all hands"' to the 'to be a pilgrim' tune?

John Shepherd (Albion Dance Band etc) is the organist in a local church and I remember picking out the strains of 'To be a farmer's boy' in the recessional one harvest time.

One of my favourite songs at the moment was written by Mal Brown, who used the tune of 'Dear Lord and Father' for a song about the Crimean War.

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: IanC
Date: 13 May 02 - 12:01 PM

Trevor

Not really surprising that they used "To Be a Pilgrim" for "Our Captain Cried All Hands" as the tune for "To Be a Pilgrim" was taken from this song (the tune's also used for "A Blacksmith Courted Me").

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Haruo
Date: 13 May 02 - 01:35 PM

Burke, is the Mormon hymn you refer to "Come, come, ye Saints"? If so, I believe it was originally not Mormon, but was widely current when the Mormons were first singing, and was adapted by them and the text revised following the exodus to Deseret. Or wherever it was they exodused to. Zion, y'know. Anyhow, the tune is similar to "All is Well", and the text ends "All is well! All is well!" It's #30 in the 1985 LDS hymnal (which I was blessed enough to pick up for 50 cents a couple months ago), also a Men's Chorus setting at #326. And I think it's in the old Fireside American book, which I don't have but was brought up on.

Liland

Subject: RE: HYMNS and Folk Tunes?
From: Burke
Date: 13 May 02 - 06:59 PM

That's it Leland. With the title I found it HERE Includes the sound.

The tune is pretty much the same. I'd put this in the same class as the other American folk hymn tunes I mentioned earlier. I wonder if anyone has really connected it with an English folk song. The Sacred Harp gives J.T. White an arrangement credit.