BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker

Subject: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Cats
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 10:52 AM

Iknow this is a very serious situation, but the pictures it conjures up are defintley worth sharing, as are the questions it raises.

Now, did they really want a Training Day, in a nice little hotel near Hastings... with a creche!!!

What happened to the parrot?

Did they swash and buckle over the side?

Arrgh Jim Lad...

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:01 AM

I actually find this quite amusing, but not because of the pirate angle. It's just kind of poetic justice that the thing we most need to ween ourselves off of right now just got more difficult to move around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:21 AM

Just read it before I came on. It is more common than you realise. A lot of smaller boats owned by the wealthy often get boarded and cash and jewellery stolen.

These guys don't drink black rum and wear black and white hooped tops, they are hi tech and do their homework before the prey leaves port.

Many a holiday ruined, nasty pieces of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:33 AM

Q-boats.

Also, they have now pissed off the Saudis.

That is not smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:39 AM

Q-boats are my recommendation also. And lots of them. Q-boats both large and small. All the maritime nations should cooperate in the effort and do no less than exterminate those engaging in piracy. A concerted effort of that sort would sort things out fairly well in a year or two, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:43 AM

Dash it old boy, send a gunboat, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:51 AM

No, not a gunboat. They can see a gunboat coming. I say hit the bastards without any warning whatsoever, and that's what Q-boats are for.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Skivee
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:55 AM

As a recognized member of the international pyratocracy, I am constantly amazed at the ill-conceived attack sratagies of our Somali brethren.
There would be no problem if they simply pulled along side of their prey and began singing shanties.
I might recommend "Rolling Down to Old Mogadishu", "Johnny's Gone To Hijack", " Farewell And Adieu To You Somali Ladies", " The Jolly Roving Petrochemical Distillate Product", as well as any songs mentioning rounding the horn (of Africa).
The appreciative passengers and crew would soon be raining money,jewels, and stock options down on them.
At least I think they will.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:00 PM

"...Just step up to the table with your bollocks on display;
And if they ask 'Were you ever at sea?'
You can say, 'Ten times 'round the horn.'
You can tell them you're a sailor
Since the day when you was born."

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 12:11 PM

It's a very serious matter, and the millions of dollars that have been paid in ransom so far only encourages the practice. If someone doesn't hit them, and hit them hard, very soon. Then it will only escalate, and lives will be lost.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:32 PM

Absolutely Mr Bridge, after all it worked before according to the records. Mind you that also was allied with a bounty of £20 per head of every pirate killed.

The "gunboats" (Sloops actually) worked and would work better than Q-ships because the "gunboats" were used not only to clobber the pirates at sea but also the ports from which they sailed. There was no such thing as an arrest or a trial, piracy on the high seas warranted death for those involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:40 PM

I think that it should be stopped both off the Horn of Africa, in the Straits of Malacca, and everywhere else it rears its ugly head. Attacking another nation's ships on the high seas has long been an act of war or near-war, and this is reminiscent of the Barbary pirates of the early 1800s. It must be stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: pdq
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

The United States had conflicts over territory with several countries in it's early days, incluing England, Spain and France.

The young United States took a huge step in 1801 by starting the first foreign war with the Barbary Coast pirates. Unfortunately, this conflict is either misinterpreted in text books or expunged completely for political reasons.

                                                         read here

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,Comrac
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

With the cost of heating oil at the moment it seems that Pirates living in Saudi are ripping us all off !

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:09 PM

Okay, fine. Let's use gunboats AND Q-ships, then, along with submarines, satellites, airplanes, commandos....let's use the works.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 02:13 PM

Piracy on the high seas.... carries the death penalty in most cultures with shores to their land.... Who would be stupid.... or clever enough.... to take even a calculated risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 10:19 PM

The area already has naval ships from several countries to quell the high seas adventures. This new haul was three times the size of an aircraft carrier, 450 miles out to sea, and carrying $100m worth of crude, which belonged to the Saudis (I think.) There's a long list of recent ships not making much news, and they STILL have that one with the tanks from Ukraine.

Are these some crazy sumsnabiches, or what ??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 10:42 PM

Overall, the IMB estimates that piracy costs the shipping industry
anywhere from $1 billion to $16 billion a year. Although this figure might appear unacceptable, it is generally viewed as an inevitable cost of doing business that, when measured against the annual value of maritime commerce—which in 2005 totalled $7.8 trillion—is not, in fact, prohibitively onerous.


------------------
Sixth, corruption and dysfunctional systems of national criminal
justice have encouraged official complicity in high-level pirate rings, which has directly affected the phantom ship phenomenon. According to the IMB, in the Philippines, Indonesia, China and Thailand—all states where syndicates enjoy direct or at least partial access to co-opted or bribed members of the administration and bureaucracy— >>ships can be hijacked "to order" for approximately $300,000.<< These insiders not only provide invaluable information about activities taking place in the maritime commercial market, they also ensure that gangs are kept abreast of actions that industry or law enforcement are taking to counter their activities.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG697.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: irishenglish
Date: 17 Nov 08 - 11:25 PM

Where's Captain Haddock when you need him?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:50 AM

The Saudis might want to think about investing some of that Madrassa money in Little Hawk's Q-boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:53 AM

I would have thought the rich Saudis would have the sense to protect these ships, if not with their own armed forces ( who never seem to be any use ) then with some mercenary forces.
It's up to them, they have the money, why should the rest of the world have to bother with them?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:26 AM

Recent large ships taken by pirates:

Pirates seize Japanese cargo ship off Somalia

No word on 23 crew aboard; attack comes despite increased security

The Associated Press
updated 12:08 a.m. CT, Sun., Nov. 16, 2008

And:

Somali pirates seize supertanker

Hijackers sail Saudi-owned vessel — the largest ever taken — to Somalia
The Associated Press
updated 2:05 p.m. CT, Mon., Nov. 17, 2008

This second one, the one cited at the beginning of the thread, is the largest vessel (thus far) hijacked, and was attacked about 450 miles out in the open ocean.

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - Somali pirates hijacked a Saudi supertanker with a cargo of crude oil hundreds of miles out in the Indian Ocean in a dramatic escalation that showed their expanding reach.

Many smaller vessels are attacked, frequently with crews and vessels held for long times, and fairly often with the murder of crew members.

From the first link, a summary of causes and conditions:

Somalia, which has had no functioning government since 1991, is the world's top piracy hotspot. It is located along the Gulf of Aden, which connects the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean and is one of the world's busiest waterways with some 20,000 ships passing through it each year.

Somali pirates are trained fighters, often dressed in military fatigues, using speed boats equipped with satellite phones and GPS equipment. They are typically armed with automatic weapons, anti-tank rockets launchers and various types of grenades.

In October, 22 sailors — eight South Koreans and 14 citizens of Myanmar — were released following a month of captivity after their South Korean shipping company paid a ransom to Somali pirates.

South Korea has said it is considering dispatching navy vessels to waters off Somalia to fight rampant piracy.

NATO has sent three ships to the Gulf of Aden to help the U.S. Navy in anti-piracy patrols and to escort cargo vessels.

The European Union has said at least four warships backed by aircraft will begin policing the dangerous waters in December. The EU flotilla will eventually take over the NATO patrols.

Despite the increased security, attacks have continued unabated off Somalia. There have been more than 80 attacks this year in the African waters.

From the second link:

Pirate attacks off Somalia have surged more than 75 percent this year, hitting freighters, tankers, yachts and fishing vessels. The pirates raised international alarm bells in September when they seized a Ukrainian freighter, the Faina, carrying a cargo of battle tanks and other weapons. The Faina and its 20-member crew are still being held off Somalia, watched by warships to prevent the removal of its cargo.

With most attacks ending with million-dollar payouts, piracy is considered the biggest economy in Somalia, a country that has had no stable government for decades. A report last month by a London-based think tank said pirates have raked in up to $30 million in ransoms this year alone.

***

The seizure of the Faina and its cargo of weapons prompted a reinforcement of warships patrolling the waters off Somalia. Along with a Russian frigate and Indian vessels, a NATO flotilla of seven ships is in the Gulf of Aden to help the U.S. 5th Fleet in anti-piracy patrols and to escort cargo vessels. The 5th Fleet said it has repelled about two dozen pirate attacks since Aug. 22 in the gulf.

Another multinational fleet currently led by the Dutch has carved out a protected lane through the Gulf of Aden, through which 20,000 tankers, freighters and merchant vessels transit every year, entering and exiting the Suez Canal.

But other ships — including ones too big for the canal like the Sirius Star — pass off East Africa to circle the continent by the Cape of Good Hope.

The expansion of attacks signals they too could be vulnerable.
"There will never be enough warships," said Graeme Gibbon Brooks, the managing director of British company Dryad Maritime Intelligence Service Ltd. "The whole area is 2.5 million square miles ... the coalition have to act preemptively and be one step ahead of the pirates."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:03 AM

I gather that there is a Port where the pirates hold captured vessels . Who controls that part of the country ? Or are the so called pirates actually government ponsred ??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: greg stephens
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:50 AM

All this satellite surveiilance and drones and stuff isn't up to much, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:53 AM

"A lot of smaller boats owned by the wealthy often get boarded and cash and jewellery stolen.

Please, you're breaking my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:02 AM

Theft is theft, piracy is piracy, regardless of the income level. I can't weep for a rich person being robbed, but I can weep for fisherfolk.

An international coalition should take whatever steps are necessary to end piracy (as much as you ever can) where ever it rears its head. The Caribbean, the Malacca Straits, the Horn of Africa -- where ever and using whatever means are needful.

Yes, I'm sorry for the Somalis and the other poor folks, but this is done by warlords and bandits and not by the poor sod plowing dusty ground. You don't think the POOR get any of the loot, do you?

Robin Hood this ain't.

And I wouldn't worry about sinking a few of pirate ships.....

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: bubblyrat
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 09:09 AM

Of course, there isn't much piracy in Israeli waters,but then the Israelis have the hardware,and the balls,to deal with that sort of thing swiftly,decisively,and fatally----sadly,the dithering,hand-wringing ,bleeding-heart apologists who infest the corridors of power of our once great Western nations just aren't up to dealing with piracy on the High Seas,or the River Thames, for that matter.I saw the recent reports about the British Royal Navy engaging with, and killing,some pirates in one of the "hot spots", and the way the newspapers and TV in Britain reported it, you would think that the Navy had committed some terrible crime !! O Tempora! O Mores !

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 10:11 AM

Leadfingers asked:

I gather that there is a Port where the pirates hold captured vessels . Who controls that part of the country ? Or are the so called pirates actually government ponsred ??

The port is in Somalia.

Who controls? Two possible answers:
1. The pirates
2. No-one. Somalia is a failed state, effectively without a government.

Not government-sponsored, because there is no government there.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:06 AM

Just to put the location into perspective 450 nautical miles S-E of Mombasa is NOT 450 nautical miles out to sea. That puts this tanker either just going into of just coming out of the Mozambique Channel. It still is way off where you would expect these clowns to be.

Nail their base ports to such an extent as to make those who live there think twice about walking along the beach.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:14 AM

What upsets me about this is hearing the JibJab video summing up 2005 where they talk about pirates in somalia... plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 11:44 AM

Iranian-operated cargo ship hijacked off Somalia

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates – The U.S. Navy says a cargo ship has been hijacked off the Somalia coast — the latest in a series of attacks by pirates operating out of the African country.

Navy Commander Jane Campbell of the Bahrain-based 5th Fleet says the 26,000-ton bulk cargo carrier was attacked Tuesday in the Gulf of Aden.

She says the ship was flying a Hong Kong flag but is operated by the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081118/ap_on_re_af/ml_piracy

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 12:15 PM

From McGrath of Harlow:

"A lot of smaller boats owned by the wealthy often get boarded and cash and jewellery stolen.

Please, you're breaking my heart.

I suppose that you believe that the rich deserve to be robbed and murdered.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 02:06 PM

I'd rather they weren't robbed, murdered, or rich.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

Why do you object to what other people have Kevin.

Typical "Socialist" politics of envy??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

Only envy if I wanted it myself, which I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:13 PM

So, nobody should be rich, including you?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 03:42 PM

You've got it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:31 PM

Never gonna happen, and I seriously doubt it's a good idea. The only time an organism reaches equilibrium is when it's dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:34 PM

Piracy comes in many forms...

The pirates themselves claim that they have been forced into attacking international shipping after the destruction of their coastal fisheries over the past decade. Without an effective government for nearly two decades, Somalia has descended into a violent anarchy, a vacuum exploited by commercial fishing operations, many from Europe, to cash in on tuna and unspoilt fishing grounds.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/pirates-seize-giant-oil-tanker-1023093.html

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 04:43 PM

Yes, Carol, there's probably some considerable cause for moral outrage on both sides of the line on this story. Nevertheless, piracy cannot and should not be tolerated. It sounds to me like there is need for a world effort to restore some sort of functioning economy and civil society to Somalia...but no one wants to stick their hand in the hornet's nest, because there is no obvious monetary profit in doing so...and a good deal of risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 05:17 PM

I don't disagree that piracy cannot and should not be tolerated. I just think that we need to look at all forms of piracy when we say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:32 PM

Maybe legal title to the ships and cargoes could be sold at a discount to the Russian mafia...

(the Ankh-Morpork solution)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 06:37 PM

Sniff...

I just recieved word that my application to join the pirates has been turned down??? Hey, I sent a CD an all but they said they didn't need no blues players... That is a polite interprtation... I reckon the blues ain't big with this gang...

Well, they ain't into hooks for hands or parrots so, heck with 'um... I'll start my own pirate crew, with parrots, hooks and blues...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:07 PM

There ain't no denying that would be a hell of an item on one's Bucket List: Join pirates in stealing a ship with a displacement of more than 300,000 metric tonnes and $100m dollars of crude. lordamighty. "Go skydiving at the North Pole" hardly compares.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:34 PM

Yazzir, heric...

I heard on NPR today that the pirates are gettin' all the good lookin' chicks, too... They lined up to hook up with a good pirate man... And, at least fir now, alot safer than skydivin' over the North Pole"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:42 PM

I don't approve of piracy/stealing in general. Controlling the rich needs to be done in other ways. 'Rich' isn't even always bad, as getting there fuels many aspects of progress. And some of the Rich give away much of their wealth in useful ways. It's not for me to decide which of them should be robbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

Come on, Bill... You'd make a great pirate... You know, with yer sideburns... Man, if there was ever a pirate lookin' guy, it was you... So, please reconsider 'cause I have a plan and I had counted on you for a senior position...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 01:38 AM

There are, or were, American 'pirates,' too, depending on your personal interpretation.
American tuna boats fish in other nation's coastal waters because "Tuna are pelagic wanderers," despite those nation's protests. If the tuna boats are arrested, the American Government threatens to break off relations with that country, considering this to be the act of an unfriendly power.
I don't know if this still continues, but it certainly did some years ago, here in NZ. Our government caved in. We still arrest the fishing boats of other nations, though. Their tuna boats, too.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to call them privateers, since they have/had government support.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:17 AM

That's not piracy, Gurney, it's poaching. But you're right, poaching tuna should be considered a serious crime. The only fish that should be poached is salmon. Tuna should be grilled.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 08:10 AM

I was listening to a radio talk this morning with a bloke in the UK that runs an anti-piracy consultancy. Disturbingly he reported that the ship owners don't give a toss about the abducted crews. You can pick crews up anywhere - they are a dime a dozen.
The anti-pirate weapon that he advises ship owners to install is the LRAD. Long Range Acoustic Device. The sound waves hitting people at 1000 metres is most uncomfortable and at 500 metres it is unbearable. Its a wide angle device so you don't have to be too flash with your accuracy. I might get one to use on the neighbours !
For details go to ;
http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/anti-pirate-weapons-piracy-somalia/
See item 2.

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

$100 million of cargo aboard a Saudi oil tanker is a whole lot of booty, enough to boggle the mind of any 18th century pirate captain, even after making allowances for inflation.

Now that the Somali pirates have learned to navigate, their rusty trawler mother ships can range free across the entire India Ocean. No commercial ship will be safe unless it too is armed.

How long will it be before the Somali envision more state of the art pirate cruisers? Why not commission hydrofoil cruiser cloaked with stealth technology, or a submarine? Come to think of it our naval shipyards in Maine are hurting for business. The Bath Iron Works just lost a major contract for a hydrofoil cruiser and the Kittery-Portsmouth Naval Shipyard is now only decommissioning or repairing nuclear submarines. We could use the work!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM

They have taken over more ships, but the Indian navy took out a big one of theirs (Whole article:


Indian navy destroys pirate ship after coming under fire


Somali bandits terrorising the busy shipping routes around the Horn of Africa suffered a rare setback when an Indian warship destroyed a pirate "mothership" after coming under fire in the Gulf of Aden.

The Indian navy said that its frigate, one of the numerous international warships dispatched to patrol the waters around the Horn of Africa, had approached a suspicious vessel yesterday evening. It turned out to be a previously captured ship being used by pirates as a base from which to launch their speedboats far out to sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:53 PM

John Gray, didn't the Allies in WWI build one of those LRADs? I remember reading about it, somewhere. Can't be too technical.
The pirates would, of course, buy something that they could hit back with. The obsolete 'Blowpipe' or another anti-tank weapon, at a guess.
The pirates don't seem to be very savage, trying NOT to kill people, trying to make a living in a mad country which has no security for anyone. Hardly the 'Dead Men Tell No Tales' type. Starting an arms race with them wouldn't help to keep that attitude going.

Like everyone, I can't think of a good answer to the problem. Especially as (I suppose) Foreign Aid has dried up.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM

Seems like the Somali piracy is just a symptom of a larger problem, but it's one nobody wants to take on.

Anyway, congratulations to the Indian Navy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

Not many here using much imagination with regard to "piracy" and the threat it could potentially pose.

It is possible that from their antics and seemingly developing skill that the next "Terrorist Spectacular" could stem.

I can vouch for the fact that the actual vessel target type was identified by a "think tank" in the UK in the ealy 1970's. Although I agree with Frederick Forsyth that the ship is more likely to disappear in far eastern waters than those off the Horn of Africa, because you have better scope to hide it. If you want a hint read Forsyth's book "The Afghan", and hark back to what happened to a certain Merchant ship making it's way up channel shortly after 9/11, it may serve to indicate how seriously the threat is taken.

As to poor fishermen being "forced" into pursuing piracy as an occupation - that is laughable - they are the poorly paid thugs of tribal warlords - who most certainly are not sharing out the ransomes paid amongst those doing the work.

I think that there would be very few "western" fishing boats fishing those waters - Gulf of Aden too busy; transit would be through the Suez canal - Too expensive. The foreign trawlers in that part of the world would be Taiwanese; Korean; Japanese. And fishng international waters is not poaching and it most certainly is not any form of piracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM

Well, that's it, T...

I had you penciled in for a senior position on my pirate ship, too, but now I'm not sure I can trust you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:22 PM

Ahhhh, not to mention that if you have $100M worth of oil on yer tanker why not give Rap, oh, 'bout 50 or so grand and let him set up a couple machine gun nests on yer boat and blow the crap outta the pirates who are 100 feet below in small boats... It this were a military battle, you would love to have not only the high ground but a few bigass guns to go with it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:55 AM

Okay Gurney - an arms race with pirates is not the way to go. So, how about this as the best, and cheapest, defence ;
Am I right in assuming the Somali pirates are Muslims ? If so, then spread pig fat on the ship's guard-rails. That should stop them in their tracks !

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: David C. Carter
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:21 AM

Bobert...why not give Keith Richards a call...he looks like a pirate!

They tell me he even plays guitar,and has been in a pirate movie!

Just add Jagger singing and prancing about and you got it made!

That should scare the living crap out of anyone!

I'd join meself,but my wooden leg is out of action....a victim of Dutch Elm desease!

David

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Why not announce phony cargo being shipped in Liberian tankers. I figure they have a pretty fair chance of sinking with the pirates aboard, or any other time for that matter.........Only a 2 dollar whore goes down faster than a Liberian tanker.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:20 AM

There was an interesting AP article (Mohamed Olad Hassan and Elizabeth Kennedy) today in the morning paper about the economic impact in the coastal villages in Northern Somalia from the pirate trade:

"Pirates are building sprawling stone houses, cruising in luxury cars, marrying beautiful women, even hiring caterers to prepare Western-style food for their hostages."

The three principal pirate ports of Harardhere, Eyl, and Bossaso. Shopowners are doing a booming business, there are new electrical generators, residents are now better fed, and children are happy.

The Indian Navy, the INS Tabar, did manage to attack and sink one mother ship, after stopping the suspicious trawler for inspection and then being fired upon; two associated speedboats disappeared in the darkness, one later was found abandoned.

I wonder why a convoy system is not being implemented.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:20 AM

The pirates started out as patrols fighting against foreign fishing boats in Somali waters. Then they moved on to other things...

http://community.oceana.org/blog/2008/10/somali-pirates-tell-their-side


European fishing boats have been overfishing in sovereign Newfoundland waters for decades, and are responsible for the collapse of the Newfoundland fisheries. They tried to do the same in sovereign Icelandic waters, but unlike the Canadian government, the Icelandic government took steps to stop it before their fisheries collapsed. JtS says that Spain, Portugal, and Russia were the worst offenders, and Spain is still doing it. He says they use bottom trawling methods that scoop up everything there, and that they sneak inside the 200 mile boundary for the Canadian sovereign waters.


"About five years ago, Somali fishers upset over foreign overfishing stoked the piracy problem in the Horn of Africa and began to seize trawlers and their crews and hold them for ransom. Civil war and anarchy had left their dismantled government unable to protect its fisheries."

http://fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&ndb=1&id=29105


"According to 'The Crisis of Marine Plunder in Africa' , a report published in November 2007 by the Institute of Security Studies (ISS), a South Africa-based think-tank, poaching and over-fishing off southern and eastern Africa has become so extreme that permanent damage to the marine environment appears imminent.

West Africa's fish stocks were exploited by European, Russian and Asian fishing fleets in the second half of the 20th century, but in recent years the industry set its sights on the shoals in the continent's southern and eastern waters."

http://wow.gm/africa/mozambique/maputo/article/2008/2/10/mozambique-commercial-overfishing-threatens-coastal-livilihoods


This is discussing Mosambique, but it shows that Western fishing boats are illegally fishing of the coast of eastern Africa...

"According to the FAO, the most recent figures show the current exploitation of demersal fish, shallow-water shrimp, line fish and deep-water lobster is extreme. A lack of marine management and an ever-increasing number of fishermen - both artisanal and commercial - is partly responsible, but experts also blame widespread illegal fishing by Western fishing fleets."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/d663d8511a2ecdc9cf2010e0d300f8f8.htm


The people of Somalia were making progress in bringing order and civil infrastructure to that country in 2006, but those efforts were ended when the US sponsored the Ethiopian attack and occupation of Somalia...

"The dramatic increase in the number of pirate attacks this year is a consequence of the complete breakdown of law and order in Somalia. But for a brief respite in 2006, the country has ceased to be a functioning state since the death of President Siad Barre in 1995. For most part of 2006, the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), a coalition of Islamic jurists and civil society, managed to end the strife and throw out the warlords. However, the dreams of a lasting peace were shattered when the Ethiopian army, under instructions from Washington, invaded the country and ousted the government run by the Islamic Courts. The country once again plunged into a spiral of unremitting violence."

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252205600.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

They're kind of like an environmental organization on steroids. I hope they don't keep a nonprofit status.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM

I think the point is that we need to look at all of the causes of what's going on and try to correct the ways in which we and the rest of the West are contributing and making them worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:20 AM

or they could redirect their efforts towards good government and public interest. become community organizers or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:50 AM

Carol-

Interesting articles.

They certainly help explain why Somali fishermen got motivated to take such extreme measures to rebuild their damaged economy. Doesn't make their actions right (nor the actions of foreign fishing fleets off their coast) but there might be a basis for a negotiated settlement.

I wonder if the "pirates" could be recruited and re-trained as a Coastguard force, paid for by major nations that would like to navigate the Gulf of Aden without harassment.

Or maybe it's too late for such a sane solution.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: pdq
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:00 PM

"Somali fishers upset over foreign overfishing stoked the piracy problem in the Horn of Africa..."

...poaching and over-fishing off southern and eastern Africa has become so extreme that permanent damage to the marine environment appears imminent."

Wow! Their not pirates. They're Environmental activists fighting the evil Western Civilization

I was going to give a check to the Nature Consevancy this Christmas season but I think the money would be best spent supporting the Somali aquatic freedom fighters.

Anyboydy got a mailing adress for 'em??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

You can address mail to pirates at:

Sirius Star
c/o Lloyds of London
1 Lime Street,
Gallery 12
London
EC3M7HA
United Kingdom

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

They're not environmental activists. They're human beings who don't like starving to death. If people from other countries, through various means, deprive the local people of their means of livelihood, and if other people from foreign countries attack and occupy their country, destroying their efforts to bring their own country under some semblance of a government, don't be surprised if people resort to some pretty desperate measures in order to try to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

I know you are right, Carol, that if you have a malignant tumor, you treat it systemically. But you still excise the tumour if you can and throw it in the biological waste bin. Just my medical opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 06:39 PM

Jus' think of it as a "bailout" of the crappy Samolian economy....

I'm ready to join in...

Even have an eye patch...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Cats
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:52 PM

Bobert, can I join your pirate crew? I still have my pirate hook, tea shirt and inflatable parrot from the Anchor Middle Bar a couple of years back.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM

Personally, I don't understand why the ships that use that part of the ocean don't have security personnel on board with big guns. Seems to me that that would take care of the problem pretty effectively.

On the other hand, the Ethiopians whom the US has backed in their attack on and occupation of Somalia, have been doing some interesting stuff of their own. That ship that the Somalian pirates captured that had the tanks on it was an illegal shipment of tanks bound for Sudan...

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252205600.htm

"Interestingly, the armaments on board the hijacked ship were illegally destined for the regional government in southern Sudan, which is under a United Nations-mandated arms embargo. According to reports, the Kenyan government was promised oil at concessionary rates once south Sudan seceded from the north. A referendum on the issue is to be held in 2011. Some members of the international community predict that the oil-rich south will opt for independence.

Meanwhile, the government of Kenya insists that the arms consignment was for its own use although it has not provided any documentary proof to substantiate the claim. The copy of MV Faina's manifest, which was published in the media, however, confirms that the arms were meant for the Government of Southern Sudan. Contract numbers for the tanks, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-aircraft guns contain the initials GOSS, a reference to the Government of Southern Sudan. American officials and the spokesman for the pirates have confirmed that the consignment was for southern Sudan.

The Kenyan government arrested the spokesman for the local chapter of the Seafarers Assistance Union, Andrew Mwangura, after he first broke the news that the tanks were headed for southern Sudan. Mwangura was charged with making "alarming statements" and being in illegal possession of marijuana. The Kenyan government has not revealed these arms purchases to the United Nations Register of Conventional Arms, UNROCA, as required.

The central government in Khartoum has reasons to be worried. Undocumented arms shipments through Kenyan ports, it suspects, could have reached separatist forces in Darfur and other parts of Sudan. There have been reports in the African media and in defence journals that southern Sudan has already received 100 T-72 and T-55 tanks of Russian origin through Kenyan auspices in recent months.

The Somali pirates, with their latest high-profile hijacking, have turned the spotlight on the arms trafficking in the volatile Horn of Africa region. The pirate groups are known to have a good intelligence network extending to the financial hubs of the region and beyond. The incident is all the more embarrassing for the Kenyan government as it helped broker the historic Sudanese North-South Peace Accord in 2005, which ended the long-running bloody civil war."


That makes it pretty difficult for the people who need to feel self-righteously indignant about what's happening in Sudan and at the same time feel self-righteously indignant about Somalia. The very Kenyans whom the US is supporting in their occupation of Somalia are arming people in Sudan who are under a United Nations-mandated arms embargo.

And then to further complicate things for those folks who need to feel self-righteously indignant, Western countries have been illegally dumping toxic waste on Somalia's coast, including radio active materials, medical bio hazard waste, industrial waste and other kinds of waste products that are hazardous to the environment (not to mention being hazardous to the people of Somalia, but we don't really care about them, so that's ok, but we have to defend the environment).

Must really suck to be self-righteously indignant these days. People keep blurring all of the lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:38 PM

Bobert I wanna go to the tryouts when they're scheduled. I can save the environment, feed the people, AND work for UN peace and disarmament goals in the region, if I've got all this straight.

Problem is, what job could you possibly tolerate once you've taken a 300,000 tonne ship? CEO of GM -b-o-r-i-n-g!! Astronaut, MAYBE, if there is a moon or Mars landing in the works.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:44 PM

I can't figure why the big ships don't hire defence personnel with heavy weapons either.   Surely it's worth not having to pay millions of dollars in ransom money when a ship gets siezed by pirates?

They must all be thinking it won't happen to them but to "the other guy".

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:43 AM

What was Captain Hooks name before he lost a hand ?

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:04 AM

"I can't figure why the big ships don't hire defence personnel with heavy weapons either"

Hawk, I doubt that the crews of merchant vessels which carry huge quantities of a highly inflammable substance would want to get involved in a shooting episode. At least they stay alive if they don't oppose these 'pirates' (or freedom-fighters, or eco-warriors, or whatever anyone happens to perceive them as).

JG in Oz - Captain Hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:06 AM

And getting involved in a shooting-war could, of course, result in even greater ecological damage than has already happened (allegedly) in that area.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM

That's some good thinkin', Backwoodsman... Them folks jus' need to keep doin' what they are doin' while I assemble my Mudville Pirate Team... What 'till ya'll hear our demands... Oh sure, we'll get out millions in ransome but that just' the tip of the iceburg...

Right, gang???

I can almost see a clause in the agreement that has to do with banjos, and folks who hog jams, and people who play one song after another in G... You know, all the real important stuff that real pirates care about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:03 AM

LOL Bobert! Can I join? I can say "Aaaaarrrrgghh, Jim Lad" in a gruff voice, and I've got a great scar, right across my belly.......! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

You have a scar on yer belly, Backwoodsman??? Well, why didnh't ya' jus' say that earlier??? Yeah, yer in...

Hey, ya'll, move over and let this feller by... He's got a ***real***... From a ***real knife***... No store bought scars like ya'll pirate wantabees...

Come on board, mate!!!

And a big "Aaaaarrrrrgghh", back atcha...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

The pirates have small boats, and the ships have big boats. If a machine gun started shooting up a small boat, there's a pretty good chance that it would sink. A big boat won't sink if it's shot up a bit with a machine gun. They could even build a bullet proof area where their security personnel could shoot from so they wouldn't have to worry about getting shot themselves.

I really don't think it would be all that difficult for big ships to defend themselves against these pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:06 PM

"The pirates have small boats, and the ships have big boats. If a machine gun started shooting up a small boat, there's a pretty good chance that it would sink. A big boat won't sink if it's shot up a bit with a machine gun."

Eh, Not quite CarolC:

The pirates have small fast boats (and it is "boats" plural that carry out these attacks). A small fast boat is quite a difficult target to hit, unless you have a pretty sophisticated gunnery system. The pirates main armament is the RPG7 (Rocket propelled grenade launcher) so it is far easier for the small fast boat to hit the big boat than vice versa. In worst case scenario if the big boat, even armed as you suggest, was an oil tanker in ballast or a fully loaded LPG carrier a hit with an RPG on one of the tanks would be catastrophic. Now place the attack at night, much more difficult for the "big boat" - Goodnight Vienna, Game over.

Countries and ports that merchant ships visit have fairly restrictive laws regarding arms carried aboard ships that are not warships as do insurance companies, that is why merchant ships are not armed as some here have suggested.

Use of Q-ships is pretty much "hit and miss" and as such extremely ineffective. Blackwater have been using them out there for sometime now without success. The pirates launch their attacks from seaward from "mother-ships". A Q-ship, if it did manage to find and then entice the pirates to attack it, would only suceed in getting one, or possibly two of the small raiding craft, the "mother-ship" would still be out there, untouched and fully capable of supporting further acts of piracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:55 PM

I believe it was yesterday that a helicopter was able to drive off a bunch of pirates as they were trying to take a ship. If a helicopter can do it, I guess they could just have a handful of armed helicopters on board for the purpose of defending the ships.


More on the origins of the pirates...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27794695#27794695

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Doesn't do the job though does it. The problem still exists. To hit the pirates at sea requires time and one hell of a lot of effort on the part of a large number of countries.

Time required to build up a picture of what is normal and what is not. Once you have that recognition of an impending attack does stick out like a ball on a billiard table.

A great deal of effort is required both in terms of committing naval forces and co-operation from countries along the trading routes. Airpower is the key both in establishing the "picture" and prosecuting rapid intervention. That airpower would be land and carrier based assisted by Predator UAVs and Satellites.

No arrests, no trials, no prison sentences, penalty for piracy is death. Most important of all blockade and hammer the bases from which they operate.

Ultimately merchant ships could be modified to make them impervious to pirate attack and hijacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

All that needs to be one is to make it more expensive for the pirates to do business than to not do business. That can be effectively done by denying them the opportunity to collect ransoms and steal from people. Killing some of them in the process would probably help, but it doesn't require the kind of effort that is outlined above. That's overkill.

Might want to use some of those forces, though, to deal with Kenyan arms smuggling into Sudan.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

T-Bird is right, Carol... The grenade launcher kinda gives the pirates, regardless of the size of their boats, a big advantage... Lob a couple of grenades to the right area of the big boat and you have one heck of a mess...

I have some ideas on how to defense the pirates but seein' as I'm trying to put together a crew myself I ain't gonna talk 'bout 'um here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:27 PM

ball bearings all over the decks? Coupled with spring net traps?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:59 PM

Perhaps only one tenth of maritime piracy incidents are reported. Furthermore, though there have been a recent spate of high profile Somalia related hijackings, Indonesia, not Somalia, is the most dangerous area, piracy wise--

Though the idea of having a shoot out with pirates on the high seas delights a number of you, arming crews in one way or another is not going to happen for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that a few random sparks on an oil tanker could blow it up real good.

Solutions that work are rather prosaic--rolls of barbed wire across the stern, water hoses, iPods amplified to the threshold of pain, sand independent security specialists to keep watch--

Maritime piracy has been going on for a long time, and on a large scale.   For some reason, until very recently, we've tended to ignore it, and we get more agitated about the "piracy" of music files than the more tangible seizures of ships, and the murders and violence that accompany them. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:12 PM

Yeah, like back in '68 an' me an'a couple buddies had this little thing goin' and we were supposed to meet up with another boat a mile into the bay from Deltaville, Va to pick up several decent sized bags of smoke... All went well and we headed back to D-Ville in my buddy's Bayliner but when we got back seems there were several dudes waiting fir us with, ahhhhhh, guns who made it clear that if'n we wanted to not get shot that maybe we should just load them bags into the back of a van they had... We did, they drove off and we went home smokeless...

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

I suspect the reason we're hearing more about it now, even though it's been a problem for a long time, and even though it's a bigger problem in another area that we're not hearing about, is because the governments of certain Western countries are probably looking for support among their electorates for some sort of large military action in the area of Somalia that has more to do with oil than pirates, and they're using the pirates as their excuse. That's how Western pirates seem to prefer to operate.

Whatever the Western governments are cooking up, I expect it will involve relieving some very poor people of their natural resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:22 PM

Yeah, I've been wondering about that too, Carol. I always wonder when something like this suddenly becomes "newsworthy". It's usually a way of manufacturing public consent for some major geopolitical or military move that has nothing to do with the purported "emergency" situation, but has some other purpose altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:26 PM

I pointed out up above that an arms race with the pirates is a bad idea. There's not a tanker crew alive who want their ship to be hit with RPGs, and they are kid's stuff compared with hand-held anti-tank weapons, which could punch a hole in ANYTHING that you build a commercial ship out of, and then explode inside. The pirates are reportedly tooling up from the arms dealers.
I should think that the only military solution is motor-gun-boats, bigger and better-armed than the opposition.
Now, if only there was a navy with some to spare!
Probably get some from arms dealers?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:56 PM

No one has ever stolen a ship full of 30 Russian T-72 tanks before. That's newsworthy.

No one has ever stolen a 300,000 tonne ship filled with $100,000,000 worth of crude before. That's newsworthy.

Somalian pirates have skyrocketed from 4% of pirate attacks a year or two ago, to one third of all attacks this year. That's newsworthy.

The Indian navy has never attacked and sunk a pirate mother-ship before. That's newsworthy.

Maybe it's a big conspiracy by the American government, but maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM

Piracy in the Malacca Strait has been a big topic in mainstream American media for a long time.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/10/malacca-strait-pirates/pirates-text

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:25 PM

Terribus-

Would implementing a convoy system make more sense to you? I'm puzzled why that's not being done. I would think that one or two frigates could certainly provide armed escort for a dozen or more of the big fellas and frustrate even tenacious pirates.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:56 PM

I would guess that with lease rates far in excess of $100,000 per day (and in excess of $200,000 for a monster like the Sirius Star) the approach is financially mpractical. On the other hand, I read that tanker was holding a 1/4 day's worth of Saudi maritime exports. So. . . .

One of the reasons that attacks frequently don't get reported (other than insurance) is the delay that might result. Time is big big money. On top of all that, as the matter is an accepted cost of doing business, otherwise financed, it would take a big reason to convince governments to pay and use their military personnel as chaperones.

These Somalian pirates may be over-harvesting, to their own destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:41 AM

Definitely over-harvesting:

Islamists: We'll fight Somali pirates

Radical group objects to seizure of ships belonging to Muslim countries

The Associated Press
updated 12:35 p.m. CT, Fri., Nov. 21, 2008

MOGADISHU, Somalia - A radical Islamic group in Somalia said Friday it will fight the pirates holding a Saudi supertanker loaded with $100 million worth of crude oil.

Abdelghafar Musa, a fighter with al-Shabab who claims to speak on behalf of all Islamic fighters in the Horn of Africa nation, said ships belonging to Muslim countries should not be seized.

"We are really sorry to hear that the Saudi ship has been held in Somalia. We will fight them (the pirates)," Musa told AP Television News.

[end quote]

Some additional posturing at the link.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM

To implement a convoy system in order to protect ships passing through the area would also involve a great deal of effort and organisation.

Speed of a convoy is? Speed of the slowest ship. That would not sit well with Container ship operators whose vessels are very large and very fast.

East bound no problem, as most ships are passing through the Suez Canal - a natural and logical "collection" point to form up your convoy. West bound there is no such point. If you form one out of an area at sea the pirate "mother ships" hit their targets as they make their way towards it. Alternatively they attack with the natural dispersal of merchant ships after they have passed through the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden.

If convoys were organised it still would not solve the problem it would at best reduce losses. During the Battle of the Atlantic the convoys helped reduce merchant shipping losses and in the process a few U-boats were sunk. What really tipped the balance and won the battle was down to, escort carriers, the formation of "hunter-killer" groups and the closing of the "mid-Atlantic-gap" with air patrols, all measures designed to search out and sink submarines, i.e. the battle was taken to the predator.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM

Oh and piracy and pirate attacks have been news worthy over here in Europe for decades - 100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 10:09 AM

How do we know none of those things have ever happened before if they weren't being reported on? Seems to me, piracy was a total non-issue in the US until now, and the general tone the Western media has been taking lately in reference to Somalia suggests to me that the resource war there has just been ratcheted up to a new level.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:05 PM

Terribus-

I'm still thinking about convoys. They do make sense with assembly at the Red Sea end of the Suez Canal. However, I would think there could also be an assembly point somewhere in the Northwest corner of the India Ocean, before traversing the Gulf of Aden.

Of course once the Somali pirates begin cruising further out into the Indian Ocean shipping lanes, the security problem becomes even more complex.

I suppose the Somali in the southern half of this stateless state may make good their threat to move in force north and plunder the plunders in their home ports. But more likely they'll just take command of an efficient plundering system.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 02:14 PM

I suppose you could be right, Carol. But I am not as receptive to the idea of cunning, competence or foresight of American or other Western governments. One could come up with a list of piracy "firsts" in Southeast Asia, with a lot more effort than is available from Google news.

Still, I think it's more likely that, rather than clever design, the sharp uptick of activity in combination with the lack of government in Somalia, and the activity being so close to the source of energy, presents a situation where something CAN be done.

The phantom ships described in the RAND paper I cited at the top suggest a spiderweb of amazing fraud reaching into governments of otherwise "stable" countries. (They take a ship, erase the name and change the flag, with a few other nice details, and then they go into port, load up, and sail away with all the merchandise.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 02:40 PM

I might be willing to believe that if the US government hadn't already been waging a covert oil war in Somalia using Ethiopia as its proxy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

Then again, France, India, South Korea, Russia, Spain, the U.S. and NATO have established a presence in the region. By UN Security Council resolution 1816 passed in June, states co-operating with Somalia's transitional government are permitted, through December, to enter its territorial waters and use "all necessary means" to "repress acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea."

(By the way, I suspect "oil war" is a term you conjured up for innuendo.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 05:56 PM

I lived in Philadelphia for a long time, and part of it's charm was that it was(and likely still is) a center of organized crime. There were a lot of truck hijackings, which, though they lack the romance of maritime piracy, amount to the same thing.

The thing is, when something happens over and over again, people start to talk--things like these:

1) How did so many truck drivers manage to pull off the expressway in the "wrong part of town", then find, out of all dead-end, empty streets in a big, dark city, the one where a crew of hijackers were waiting with just the right sized truck to haul off their trailer?

2)How do the hijackers manage to transfer so much merchandise from one vehicle to another, on city streets, without ever getting caught?

3)Why,does "hijacked" merchandise always seem to be name brand, high end designer goods, and name brand electronics, whereas, the shady, nameless fly-by-night guys who sell new, in-the-sealed box merchandise at flea markets and street fairs seem to have nothing but off-brand stuff?

4. Why, given that the truck hijackings seem to happen in the same areas, don't police have some sort of intensified surveillance?

5. Why do insurance companies seem to pay off these claims so quickly? (A lot of big insurance companies in Philly, too)

Of course these are idle questions from people with no expertise in transportation, law enforcement, or insurance. People with genuine expertise probably have simple, clear, and direct answers to these, and many other related questions;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 06:17 PM

And, M Ted, any city whos football fans snowballed Santa Clause can't be all bad...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 08:12 PM

Bobert-

You are enabling the hijacking of this Somali pirate thread! Cease and desist or you may hear a knock on your door at 3 in the morning from our black bag flying squad.

We don't want to do that!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM

Oil war refers to conflicts that have at their core, access to and control of oil. Somalia and Sudan are both conflicts that center around oil. Countries like the US and China (and others) use proxies in such conflicts. In the case of Somalia, the US is using the Ethiopians. In Sudan, the US is using the rebels, and China is using the Sudanese government.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 01:22 AM

>>"The dramatic increase in the number of pirate attacks this year is a consequence of the complete breakdown of law and order in Somalia. But for a brief respite in 2006, the country has ceased to be a functioning state since the death of President Siad Barre in 1995. For most part of 2006, the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), a coalition of Islamic jurists and civil society, managed to end the strife and throw out the warlords. However, the dreams of a lasting peace were shattered when the Ethiopian army, under instructions from Washington, invaded the country and ousted the government run by the Islamic Courts. The country once again plunged into a spiral of unremitting violence."<<


You seem to be quite right about this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:40 PM

The Ethiopians don't really need anyone to encourage them to invade and pacify Somalia. They've had several border wars in the last 50 years, some of which they initiated and some which were initiated by the Somali. However, I'm certain that someone at our embassy in Addis Ababa alerted the Ethiopian government that "we would not be displeased" if they invaded and brought down the Islamic Courts Union.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 23 Nov 08 - 02:44 PM

>>Saudi is a Muslim country and it is very big crime to hold Muslim property," Osman said. "I warned again and again those who hold the ship must free it unconditionally or armed conflict should be the solution. If they don't free the ship, we will rescue it by force."

Since January, at least 91 vessels have been attacked in the Gulf of Aden . . . "

You've got to admire a gang with such a firm moral grounding. But aren't these the "good Muslims" that Cheney weakened with "Bad Muslims"? Damned hard to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 07:59 PM

There were reports last evening that a squadron of armored vehicles had pulled into one of the pirate ports, the vehicles allegedly commanded by the al-Qaida rebel faction. There may be a showdown or maybe they'll be paid off. Or maybe they'll take a hint from the pirates and git outta town before sunset!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 09:16 PM

One of the funniest things on this front was a complaint reported as having been voiced by one of the pirate officers concerning the negotiations for the huge ransom. He said it was annoying because the middle-men were not bona-fide members of the target corporations in Saudi, and they "couldn't get anyone trustworthy to deal with".

Its just a shame it's so hard for pirates to get trustworthy connections anymore. What's the world coming to???



A

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 09:37 PM

Amos-

You're right! The Somali pirates would be greatly relieved if they were dealing with someone like you. Are you busy this weekend?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 09:50 PM

Uhh, Bobert. I know you got plans, but, um, do we have a *specific* plan for when squadrons of armored vehicles and guys with RPGs and stones pull into one of our pirate ports?






And I don't mean kickin into Rainy Day Women or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 08 - 10:06 PM

Well, I'd do what they did--head out for blue water and thumb my nose at those half-tracks.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 12:00 AM

Teribus and the Pirates.

There's the makings of a good comic-strip right there.

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM

Seamus-

That's a great idea, and we might even find a sponsor for it in Ely or one of the other pirate ports. What a cast of characters!

Odd that we haven't heard more about the squadron of armored cars. Maybe they ran out of gas or were waylaid by beautiful pirate queens.

I think I'll do some more trawling on the Web.

Evidently the NATO naval units are only escorting food relief ships.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:21 AM

Evidently one way to arrive in Northern Somalia, the port of Berbera, is via boat from Yemen: clink here for a good time!

The young tourist (above link) had a good time but was somewhat put off by persistent assurances by the local denizens that "It's perfectly safe here!" whenever he struck up a conversation.

I was unable to find any direct flights to anywhere in Somalia. So maybe one needs to travel via boat from Yemen or lorry from Ethiopia or Kenya. What great fun!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 09:42 AM

CarolC said, in part:

How do we know none of those things have ever happened before if they weren't being reported on?

The joker in your comment is the words "reported on".

Although these incidents have not been front-page news, any pirate taking of a ship is "reported on" to the insurers, at the very least, and there are records. So at the very least the insurers know that this was the largest tanker taken.

The volume of oil in this taking? That's part of this incident, and the previous paragraph applies.

"The first mother ship taken"? This incident and any previous mother ships taken (if there had been any) would be "reported on" to the navy and perhaps sponsoring international authority, such as NATO.

And so on with the other "firsts" mentioned above. Many things are known which are not given a big play in the various media.

And, Carol, you talked about the US "fighting a covert oil war in Somalia."   I don't believe that either Somalia or Ethiopia is a significant oil producer.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:39 AM

Dave-

There have been active oil exploration efforts off the coasts of Eritrea and Somalia. Ethiopia itself no longer has a coastline.

Charley Noble, geographer at large

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 10:55 AM

The US is supposedly "fighting a covert oil war in Somalia." according to CarolC.

Like Dave O I'd love to know how? As far as Sudan is concerned the exploration deals are predominantly with the Chinese and the Indians. As for Somalia whatever oil anybody thinks it has is just that purely speculation, which is rather odd. I would have thought that if you were going to fight a "covert oil war" anywhere, by proxy or any other means, you would be best advised to determine whether or not there was any oil there in the first place, at present there's none.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:12 PM

Teribus-

You are correct that much of the oil exploration reports are speculative. One of the areas where there has been reconnaissance is known as the Ogaden, which straddles the border of Ethiopia and Somalia. I believe a Chinese reconnaissance team was recently held hostage by one faction of rebels during their work there.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:18 PM

Evidently the incident I was thinking of happened in the spring of 2007: Clink here!

Natural gas was the focus of the exploration.

So the Ogaden may hold significant reserves to be exploited if there is ever peace in the area.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Nov 08 - 01:22 PM

More details about the attack on the Chinese oil field workers and their guards in the Ogaden: clink here!

Maybe it's not such a good idea to hitch a ride into Somalia by lorry through the Ogaden.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 01:11 PM

Any one that travels by boat knows that any info on Pirates, world wide is published monthly in boating mags & periododicals. The governmet also puts out notices to travelers. Piraticy has been reported on for at least the last 30 yrs in various maritime publications that I can remember, this has been the most newsworthy though. In the distant past it mostly involoved drugs, we're now in a brave & BOLD new world.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 07:58 PM

The latest report indicated that the pirates had moved the Saudi supertanker further out to sea, in response to the incursion by the South Somalis.

There was an interesting BBC interview with one of the pirate leaders (his face was discretely blurred) in his compound ashore where he explained that they were only in it for the money and would prefer not to injure anyone. Evidently they don't need a press agent if they can keep generating statements like that.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 26 Nov 08 - 08:03 PM

Here's the best link I could find for an update: click arrgggh!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:14 AM

The latest update on pirate activities in the Gulf of Aden has to do with the pirate "mother ship" that was sunk by an Indian Naval Ship Tabar. It turns out that the ship that was sunk in flames was a Thai trawler that had been recently captured by Somali pirates; only one Thai fisherman survived the sinking, rescued four days later by another passing fishing boat. Here are more details: Click here for article

The Indian Navy should not be blamed for sinking the trawler, after being fired upon. But they might have made more of an attempt to search for survivors.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 10:28 AM

In a related story to the overall situation in Somalia, the Ethiopian government has just announced that it plans to withdraw its military forces, which have been propping up the fragile transitional government for the last two years, by the end of December. Here are more details: click here for article

Evidently the Ethiopians are finding the occupation as frustrating (and costly) as the Bush Administration's occupation of Iraq. The current prime minister and the president of the acting government have been feuding as well. No one should be optimistic about what will happen after the Ethiopian forces withdraw.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Skivee
Date: 28 Nov 08 - 04:44 PM

For those of us who follow Weebls

Yar

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Nov 08 - 06:19 AM

Mitch Benn on the Now Show, repeated 12.30 on BBC R4, has a Somali pirates' shanty.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 08:05 PM

Here's an intriguing update on how helpful security guards can be: Click here for article

The shipowners may not be especially pleased with how well this team of guards defended their ship.

I can't seem to find a report that I heard on ABC news this evening that the Ukranian transport with the tanks and ammunition had been successfully ransomed and released. Maybe someone else can find this breaking news.

Penny-

I'd love to have the lyrics to the Somali pirate song.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Nov 08 - 09:03 PM

Unarmed security guards to hold off pirates from boarding a ship is like asking rent-a-cops or the 'KeyStoneCpooers' to protect the president of Iraq. They shoul've invested a little bit more money & hired Black-Water, after all if they're good enough for US,,,,,,

Time to resale (pun) or reconstitute the USS Constitution. Put a few Marines on board to help out the Navy though don't want to see her ransomed off, terrorists would sink her no matter what we paid.

How do we get planes back from highjackers or get hostaged crew & passangers back?
Give pirates no quarter, let them rot, hanging in chains at the entrance to their home harbors.
Pay the 15 million for the ship & it's 100 milion in cargo, fuck 'em, if no one pays what are they gonna do sink the ship, it's sitting in their habor, they sink it they'll have to bathe in it, fish in it & eat off it's shores. If they kill any crew, kill their kids, 2 for each 1 they kill, they won't escape if they're surrounded & they're called on it. So they'll give their lives up if attacked, not if they can be id'd & their worldly possions conficated & their families imprisoned for knowning excepted stolen goods, properties & benifiting from criminal actions. After all the wifes of pirates must know that the nice new homes they're living in came from somewhere other than catching fish.

After seeing the rottin corpuses of unsuccessfull & poor pirates hanging from cages along the waterfront it might send the message that piracy doesn't pay.
Maybe the international community should look to split the nation up & give the land over to the bordering nations, better yet the bording nations can bid on Somalia & the proceeds turn back to help Somalia get back on it's feet. Who could we trust to oversee that?????

Either way, hanging or drowning. Trouble with drowning is that it's not a punishment that you can show off nearly as well as a good hanging, they could hang forever, the crows or whatever kind of scavenger birds they have there, they could feed on rotten carcuss for months.

Now I hate the idea of Blackwater or any of their ilk getting anymore contracts but these aren't nice folk anyway, so what if the pirates get a few of them, it'll only make it worst when the Blackwater people get hold of the pirates. Don't they like to waterboard? I'm sure they'll show these former fishfolk something about surfing, Skinning & filleting. One good turn deserves another, give 'em a dose of their own medicine.

Us folk singers & singer/songwriters will have a whole new batch of material for new songs too. Think of it, there have been no new traditional pirate songs folked up since, well a century & a half at least, maybe, not traditional anyway. We could even have it better. Sned singer-song writers on board these tankers & pirate prone attacked ships & they can wirte songs 1st handed, don't even have to go through the collection step or the folk process. Wow, instant traditional pirate songs. Helen Creighton, would die for this. And what better way for the singer/songwriter to serve the folk community, so we lose a few, all the better for the long life of folk, folk will live on for a few more hundred years. A few good battles, some plank walking & some keelhauling, feeding to the sharks, this could be a gold mine, the hell with the cargo's of oil.

I'm out of here, fore I get hunged by the aft.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:57 AM

Here's an interesting turn of events, an American woman, Michelle Balarin, negotiating with the Somali pirates directly: click here for article

This is definitely a story scripted for hollywood production!

Barry-

You're gonna have to shake a leg if you really want to get in on this. Michelle may be far more successful than augmenting defensive tactics, or not! I'd also love to see the old Constitution sailing up and down the Somali coast, cannons at the ready. The pirates might also be amused.

A Yemen ship was reportedly released without ransom after negotiations.

And it seems as if the Ukrainian transport is close to a deal for release.

If the Ethiopian armed forces choose to leave Somalia at the end of December, as recently announced, you can expect the transitional government to fold and flee faster than it takes to process your grocery bill with an ATM card at the local supermarket.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 09:05 AM

Here's a link to an image of one of the Somali pirate queens, Fatima, who is moonlighting as a fashion model: Click here!

Once the Somali get a foothold, there's no holding them back!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 05:47 PM

Link to play again page of programme.

I don't know how well this plays, as my computer is on dial up and it doesn't like it.

Mitch Benn makes his living from writing this sort of stuff, in a variety of styles, very impressively. Perhaps passing on lyrics is not right?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 06:31 PM

Just for the record, I have called off my recruitment program and am happy with the crew that I have assembled... You all know who you are and know the secret handshake and know everything ya'll need to know...

That make you happy, Charley???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:24 PM

Bobert-

What is going on in real time is well beyond anything we have imagined! LOL

Penny-

I don't know if your link really works either. Anyone had any success with it? We do need the lyrics of the Somali pirate song if anyone can transcribe them.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:31 PM

Just remember what Bruce Springstein sang in his song, "Big Muddy" ("Lucky Town" CD), Charley... "Sooner or later it all comes down to money"...

Know what I mean???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Dec 08 - 08:41 PM

Bobert-

Sure, it's all about money!

Here's one new Somali pirate song I was able to harvest from the web:

By Susanna Viljanen, © 11-29-08
Parody of "Sleigh Ride"

Sea Raid (The Somali Pirate Song)

Just arm those AK-forty-sevens and get a spare clip or two
Come on, it's lovely weather for a sea raid together with you
At sea we'll tankers go raiding and we'll be yelling "Yoo-hoo!"
Come on, it's lovely weather for a sea raid together with you

Giddy-up, giddy-up, giddy-up, raid we
We're wolves of the sea -
We're riding on a speedboat armed to teeth
All around, all around the Somali coast
The tankers are toast -
We raid the merchantmen now and then and with Jolly Roger we boast -

Our boats are swift and speedy and goddamn greedy are we
No more we sabres swing-a-ling, we assault rifles have, indeed
Let's raid that Western merchantman and take a hostage or two
Come on, it's lovely weather for a sea raid together with you

Giddy-up, giddy-up, giddy-up, raid we
We're wolves of the sea -
We're riding on a speedboat armed to teeth
All around, all around the Somali coast
The tankers are toast -
We raid the merchantmen now and then and with Jolly Roger we boast -

We'll send them to Davy Jones as skull and cross-bones we boast
Around the Horn of Africa and all along Somali (sic) coast
We'll smuggle a truckload of heroin and some nicotine too -
Come on, it's life of pirate, going sea raid together with you!

Sea raid together with you
(Sea raid together with you)

It's not a particularly good one, in my opinion, but it's fresh!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 02:11 AM

Here's some more information about Somalia and oil...

http://www.netnomad.com/fineman.html

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 08:29 AM

Carol-

An excellent report on the exploration for oil in Somalia. There's no doubt in my mind that the potential for oil and gas fields make this dysfunctional country of continuing interest to the international energy producers.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 11:34 AM

An article from 18th January 1993!!!!!

Since when everybody and their dog has shunned the place like the plague, even with oil attaining a price of $147 per barrel.

Oh! Yes, of course, the "big bad oil corporations" could afford to ignore the Somali oil because they were too busy stealing Iraq's oil and building pipelines to transport Caspian oil and gas across Afghanistan to where was it again??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 06:59 PM

Teribus-

Please review the other posts above and you will discover that your statement "everybody and their dog has shunned the place like the plague" is incorrect. You will find that there was also more current oil and gas exploration on-going in the Ogaden, a Somali occupied territory in Ethiopia, where a Chinese exploration team and their guards were killed or captured last year by the regional liberation group.

The point is that there are likely large reserves of oil and gas on both sides of the border in Somalia and Ethiopia, and until some level of peace is restored no further exploration or exploitation can safely take place. Perhaps that is what you meant.

In the meantime piracy makes economic sense for some in northern Somalia (Puntland).

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 07:26 PM

The old article is appropriate because it gives an account of what was going on then (we call that history in retrospect), without the distortion of time. The article I posted gives background on the history of the conflict and the role oil has played in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Dec 08 - 11:08 PM

If the pirates don't wrap this up soon with the drop in oil prices their cargo won't be worth the ship that floats it & I can't imagine the oil outfits & shipping companies care that much about their crews.
Actually they should not bargin with the pirates at all, let them keep the oil, they'll be begging for a halh million in a week instead of demanding 15, at this rate they'll end up having to give the crews back, they won't be able to afford to feed them.
Set the ship ablaze, it'll be the last time they eat where they shit.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 08:03 AM

Evidently a major cruise ship was attacked yesterday in the Gulf of Aden by two small pirate boats but was able to escape at full speed, despite having shots fired at it. Score one for the Bold Princess Royal:

"Thank, God," cried our captain when that pirate had gone,
"Go down to your grog, me boys, go down everyone;
Go down to your grog, me boys, and be of good cheer,
For while we have sea room, we've nothing to fear."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:11 PM

The pirates will finance part of the purchase of Citgroup by selling new Pirate Ransom Backed Securities. The PRBS's are backed by the cash flows from future ransom payments from hijackings in the Gulf of Aden. Moody's and S&P have already issued a AAA investment grade rating for the PRBS's.

Head pirate, Ubu Kalid Shandu, said "We need a bank so that we have a place to keep all of our ransom money. Thankfully, the dislocations in the capital markets have allowed us to purchase Citigroup at an attractive valuation and to take advantage of TARP capital."

Shandu added, "We don't call ourselves pirates. We are a privately run coast guard and this will just allow us to guard our coasts better."

Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Bernanke promised today to take "whatever steps are needed" for Somali pirates.

http://optionarmageddon.ml-implode.com/2008/12/02/somali-pirates-in-discussions-to-acquire-citigroup/

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 01:40 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Dec 08 - 10:17 PM

LOARGHH

Beats what the Nigerians have to offer.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 08:05 AM

Here's a link to more background provided by Bloomberg for the impact of the Ethiopian, with the support of the United States, invasion of Somalia: Click here for report

A major conclusion in the report:

In 2006, militant supporters of the Islamic Courts Union, an alliance of Sharia tribunals, won control of Somalia and imposed religious law.

"Under the Courts, there was literally no piracy," says Hans Tino Hansen, chief executive of Risk Intelligence, a maritime security consultant in Denmark.

Then the U.S. helped drive out the Muslim rulers to prevent the East African country from becoming a terrorist haven, leaving behind a lawless chaos in which piracy has flourished.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:13 AM

In other words, it has become a terrorist haven.

:-\

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:19 AM

They didn't really do it to prevent the area from becoming a terrorist haven, though. In their effort to "prevent the country from becoming a terrorist haven", they provided support to the very warlords who killed those US Marines and dragged them around Mogadishu over a decade ago. And now that they've gotten rid of the more moderate Muslim alliance that was governing the area, they now have extremists who stone 13 year old girls for being raped governing some areas and working hard to take over the rest of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 11:42 AM

The moderate ones, however, are the ones who said they were going to crack the pirate's heads for stealing a ship from a Muslim country.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:23 PM

We in the West are talking about bombing cities (which have civilians living in them) in order to kill the pirates. How is that better than the moderate Muslim government cracking the heads of pirates?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 12:48 PM

I imagine there's a name for that argument technique. ;) Is it called trick-question-from-left-field?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:45 PM

Just pointing out what I thought was obvious.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 01:52 PM

On the other hand, I could have misinterpreted the post that came before my second to last one. It could be that that post was intended to show that the more moderate Muslim regime that the US and Ethiopia overthrew were preferable in reference to their approach to dealing with the pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

no, no. I was talking shit about them.

But please admit you find the Muslim versus non-Muslim stealing/kidnapping/ransomming thing just a teeny tiny bit offensive for a group that would like to call themselves a government.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:43 PM

My opinion is that finding them offensive is a luxury that we in the US can afford, but the people in Somalia might see differently, because their lives and their ability to function as a society might depend on the people we find offensive. I find the idea of sitting in my comfy home in a mostly secure country, making self-righteous judgements about the only stable government Somalia has had in years, and one that was less prone to violating human rights than the dictator we were propping up before, and the warlords who are trying to take over now, to be a pretty cheezy thing to do, and I prefer not to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 04:49 PM

Not a teeeeny tiny small little bit?





;)
(As always - I will ponder your insightful viewpoint.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:20 PM

Hey wait a minute!! Who's being condescending towards them: Me, or you! I simply suggested they can and should live up to basic standards of decency in any country rich or poor.

If you live in some poor small country with major setbacks, you can still be proud, with moral integrity of world class standards. It is not cheezy to recognize that such people can do exactly that - rather than, openly and without shame, assert that piracy against those not of our religion is only a lesser crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:36 PM

I was asked whether or not I find them offensive. I don't feel that I am in a position to make such judgements. I feel that my job is to concern myself with what my country is doing that it shouldn't, or what it isn't doing as well as it should. It feels cheezy to me if I make such judgements about others while my own country is responsible for much of the suffering in their country.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:41 PM

"In 2006, militant supporters of the Islamic Courts Union, an alliance of Sharia tribunals, won control of Somalia and imposed religious law.

"Under the Courts, there was literally no piracy," says Hans Tino Hansen, chief executive of Risk Intelligence, a maritime security consultant in Denmark.

Then the U.S. helped drive out the Muslim rulers to prevent the East African country from becoming a terrorist haven, leaving behind a lawless chaos in which piracy has flourished." - Charley Noble

Sorry Chuck, I've never heard such a load of bollocks in all my life, you obviously do not know a single thing about the area of the world you are talking about and are desperately cherry-picking things to provide a band of bandits with justification and an excuse for what they are doing.

So from what you have posted "piracy" only became a problem after 2006 because the US got the Ethiopians to "invade" Somalia, be rather difficult to establish that, I mean who provided the Ethiopians with all that Warsaw Pact Hardware??? Who was it that over threw "The Lion of Juda", wasn't the Americans was it Chuck??

I'll let you into a little secret Chuck - Piracy has been a problem in the Gulf of Aden, off the Horn of Africa for at least the past 42 years that I have been aware of.

By the bye, one thing you were right about:

"...new Somali pirate song I was able to harvest from the web:

By Susanna Viljanen, © 11-29-08
Parody of "Sleigh Ride"

Sea Raid (The Somali Pirate Song)

It's not a particularly good one, in my opinion, but it's fresh!

Charley Noble"

That's it Charlie - never mind the quality feel the width - Not particularly good!!!! - Try absolutely bloody pathetic as a description of it. I mean!! I ask you:

"Giddy-up, giddy-up, giddy-up, raid we
We're wolves of the sea -"

What was the dozey cow thinking about??

You, and that songs composer, should have a go putting yourselves on the business end of one of those AK-47's you seem so keen on singing about - then tell us all how bloody enjoyable it is, maybe you could "camcord" it, could end up as a pay day on AFV. Tell you what Chuck - give us a shanty about mugging - exactly the same crime - different setting - different scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:43 PM

Sorry to interrupt the interesting political discussion but I just found another news update with regard to the pirates aboard the Ukrainian tank transport. The pirates acknowledge that they'll get a relatively modest portion of the $3 million proposed ransom; the lion's share gets ripped off by all the go-betweens: click here for report

There's a great photo of the Somali pirates aboard the MV Faina.

These Somali pirates really have a tough row to hoe.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 07:56 PM

Exactly as I said Chuck - "....mugging - exactly the same crime - different setting - different scale."

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:11 PM

(But your country's alleged failure is not having appreciated the qualities of these governing people.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 09:34 PM

My country's failure is mistaking the resources of other countries for its own, and being willing to forcefully insinuate itself into the affairs of those countries in its efforts to control those resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Dec 08 - 10:01 PM

Teribus-

I probably know much more about this area of the world than most people at Mudcat central, and even more than you. And it is confusing at best, and deadly at worst. I do kind of admire the pirates; they've got a lot of guts to do what they are doing. But they are doomed.

I was in Ethiopia from 1965 and 1968, and I'm planning to return there this February but not to anywhere near the Ogaden or Eritrea. I'm curious but not stupid.

I do think the U.S. made a major mistake in encouraging the Ethiopians to invade Somalia to displace the Islamic Courts rule, and the Ethiopians now have admitted that the mission is futile and are preparing to withdraw. I'm sorry but there just isn't any Somali warlord that has the power to hold Somalia for the West against the Islamic rebels. And I doubt if the Islamic rebels are really tools of Al-Qaida. They've got their own agenda, and it's just not compatible with ours or with major international oil companies.

Want to blow some more smoke?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 06:09 AM

Well then Charlie, would you like a list of the various places round the world that I visited 40 years ago - that would make me as much of an "expert" in them as you claim to be on Somalia. The periods you mention would put you in the country about 5 years after its formation from the former Protectorates of British and Italian Somaliland and the year before the military coup that swept General Siad Barre into power in 1969.

The Ogaden War 1977-1978 - Let's take a look at the international players interested in this. The "war" between Somalia and Ethiopia was started unilaterally by Somalia in an attempt to take over the region, which had been parted from Somalia by the British in a peace treaty in the 1880's. In this dispute the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries refused to help Somalia, and instead, backed Communist Ethiopia. The Somali's did very well initially, winning in most of the Ogaden, but with Somali forces at the gates of Addis Ababa, Soviet weaponry and Cuban forces came to the aid of Ethiopia. The Somali Army was hammered and playing the old "Cold War" Game, Somalia sought the help of the United States. Unfortunate timing for the Somali's though as the man at the helm of the US of A at that time was none other than Peanut Carter himself and although the Carter Administration originally expressed interest in helping Somalia he later declined, as he did not feel up to confronting the Soviets, albeit by proxy, in this period of supposed détente. So sorry Charlie, CarolC, et al, no US involvement there.

Losing the war that he had started to retake the Ogaden didn't do Barre very much too good, things started to slip and resistance movements were set up and backed by - Guess who Chuck?? The Ethiopians aided and abetted by their pals of long standing - The Russians. Barre was finally ousted by a combined force of northern and southern based clans all of whom, as previously stated, were backed and armed by Ethiopia. And following a meeting of the Somali National Movement and northern clans' elders, the northern former British portion of the country declared its independence as Somaliland in May 1991; although de facto independent and relatively stable compared to the rest of the country it has no official recognition by the UN or any other foreign government.

After that everything basically fell apart none of the other tribal factions could agree on how the country (Somalia) was going to be ruled, or by whom. Things get so bad that by 1992 the UN steps in, they attain limited success in combating famine in the Southern part of Somalia, just sufficient to get all the Somalis who had been fighting fit enough to resume the bloodshed. A further UN Mandate is given for a US led UN force to make the South of the Country safe enough to allow humanitarian assistance work to be undertaken. Well that all goes to rats when instead of maintaining a balance this US-led force decides to take on the biggest "warlord" in the area on his own turf. Aidid won that one and the UN depart on 3rd March, 1995, fifteen months or so later Aidid gets killed, and once again chaos reigns supreme.

So far Charlie we've had outside interference from Russia, Cuba, Ethiopia and the United Nations - Note Charlie, the United Nations, not the USA.

Between Aidid's death in June 1996 and November 2004 things bimble along in Somalia with various provinces declaring themselves autonomous regions, and the Somali people generally having a pretty bloody time. In November 2004 a group of Somali leaders met in Kenya and drew up what they called a charter for the government of the nation - They called themselves the Transitional Federal Government. Over the next couple of years this crowd are making the right noises outside of Somalia and gain the backing of - Guess who Charlie??? - Ethiopia, after all that is exactly the same model that had been used by the Ethiopians themselves 13 years earlier.

Early in 2006 fighting breaks out between an alliance of Mogadishu warlords calling themselves the Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism (or "ARPCT") and the armed militia of another crowd calling themselves the Islamic Courts Union (or "I.C.U.") who are seeking to institute Sharia law in Somalia. Now note this Charlie, neither of these mobs actually controlled or ruled anything, so please stop referring to any peaceful and halcyon days enjoyed by the people of Somalia under the rule of Sharia Law and the ICU - never happened - stoning of a 13 year girl who had been gang-raped did.

In this fighting in Mogadishu, the ICU accused the CIA, of backing the ARPCT, this was reported in the UK by the Guardian, which more-or-less must guarantee it to be incorrect. The US State Department have not commented on it, which was probably the best course of action to take.

The ICU suceed in forcing the ARPCT out of Mogadishu and the Ethiopian-supported Transitional Federal Government then call for intervention by a regional East African peacekeeping force. The I.C.U. respond to this by making the claim that Ethiopia, with its long history as an imperial power including the occupation of Ogaden, seeks to occupy Somalia, or rule it by proxy.

In December 2006 TFG and Ethiopian troops took Mogadishu and drove the ICU into the South of the country, by January 2007 the ICU was largely defeated. Since then new Islamic militant groups organise, and continue to fight against TFG Somali and Ethiopian official troops. So far they've recovered effective control of large portions of the country, and continue to fight in Mogadishu. The Transitional Federal Government however, continues to control Mogadishu and Baidoa.

Now Charlie apart from one instance of being accused of backing ARPCT, which has not been proven one way or the other, US involvement in Somalia seems to have been restricted to UN Mandated operations in the early to mid 1990's. And the fact remains nobody is prospecting for any of the supposed "Oil Riches" of Somalia (The Ogaden Charlie, where those Chinese oilmen were killed, is located in Ethiopia).

Ethiopias close foreign ties lean more towards Russia, China and the EU. Between 1980 and 1992 the US did not even have an Ambassador in Ethiopia, since the fall of the Derg the US has provided Ethiopia with about $2.3 billion in aid, as to how that is spent the figures for the 2007 financial year indicate that out of $474 million given $264 million (56% of the total) went towards combating HIV/AIDS not Somalis.

Enough smoke for you Chuck??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 10:27 AM

I'm confused about something now. At the time (October 27 and soon therafter) I thought the stadium stoning was attributed not to the Islamic Courts Union, but to supporters of al-Shabab (which I have referred to above as "the bad Muslims," whom I thought weakened the ICU.)   Now when I went to re-check, the great bulk of articles attribute the verdict and sentencing to the ICU. Kismayo, a port city where the stoning occurred, was captured in August by a coalition loyal to "rebel leader" Hassan Turki and al-Shabab.

Was this stoning the handiwork of both groups? Are they not at odds?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:13 AM

Some of the members of the armed forces of the ICU broke away from that organization and formed the more extremists and violent group that is responsible for the stoning. They are not the same group at all, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if a lot of the Western media want to mislead people into believing that they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 11:51 AM

Wikipedia describes a man who is an ICU remnant, rather than a break-away (not saying you're wrong):

Sheik Hassan Abdullah Hersi al-Turki (also known as Hassan Al-Turki, or "Al-Turki"–"The Turk"), an Islamist leader in Somalia, is a military leader in the Islamic Courts Union and formerly a leader of Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya. He is from the Ogaden clan, Reer - Abdille subclan. On June 3, 2004, Hassan Al-Turki was designated, under US Presidential Executive Order 13224, for terrorist financing.[1] He was born in 1944 in the Ogaden region in Ethiopia.[2] It is believed that after the loss of the Ogaden War, he left Ethiopia to continue his revolutionary efforts in Somalia.[3]

Turki was targeted in a US fighter jet strike on March 2nd, 2008. US fighter jets struck the southern Somali town of Dobley. The bombings by the AC-130 gunships targeted two homes in the town that were allegedly visited by Turki, who is believed to have ties to al-Qaeda. [4]

Main articles: Rise of the Islamic Courts Union (2006) and War in Somalia (2006–present)
Hassan Al-Turki became a military leader of the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), and has been in charge of Dhobley district near the Kenyan border.[5] He led the forces of the ICU in the taking of Jubaland.

On September 23 2006, his forces approached Jilib, en route to Kismayo. Juba Valley Alliance forces withdrew without a fight.[6] After the city fell, on September 24, he promised peace to the city after Islamic militiamen broke up an anti-Islamist demonstration with gunfire, killing three teenagers.[7] (Also see: Juba Valley Alliance: War In Somalia) Al-Turki addressed people in Kismayo telling them the region would be under the Islamic law. "This city is seized by Islamic forces including all tribes of Somali men, welcome to the new peace brought to this city and I promise you will live in security and prosperity," Sheikh Hassan Al-Turki said.[8]

Hassan Turki evaded capture by Somalia's transitional government since the Islamic Courts were forced from power by Somali and Ethiopian troops. In September 2007, he was running a military training camp on the Kenyan-Somali border. [9]

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 12:51 PM

From what I've been reading, the UIC has more or less dissolved and doesn't really exist in any active form. It was a union of courts, each of which arose independently in a specific area to address the problems of trying to create some sort of order out of chaos, and to establish a civil infrastructure. After the different courts formed the union, that union formed an armed wing. Once the UIC was chased out of the areas where they held power, they ceased to exist in any meaningful form, but Al-Shabaab remained active as a force to fight the Ethiopian occupation. However, some people who held high ranking positions within the union still consider themselves to be members of the UIC. These people have been having stark disagreements with Al-Shabaab, and do not recognize them as a part of the UIC.

I guess the best comparison I could think of would be if the US government dissolved, but the army remained and took off on its own to do whatever it decided to do without the government to act as a moderating influence.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Dec 08 - 05:31 PM

Lots of homework being done here. Not bad at all!

I don't disagree with much of Teribus' narrative, except for the role of the United States.

An odd footnote to that history is that just before the Emperor Haile Sallassie was deposed by a left wing army coup in or around 1974, Somalia was allied withe the Soviet Union. After the successful coup, the Soviet Union switched to Ethiopia. The United States had been long time supporters of Sellassie and was quite distressed to see him go.

I would also maintain that the United States has had a major role in supporting the invasion of Somalia by Ethiopian troops, providing them detailed intelligence and some naval and air support.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Dec 08 - 10:37 AM

The latest update with the headline that "Defiant Somali pirates await EU navy force": click here for article

The European Union is evidently sending 6 naval units to augment its presence in the Gulf of Aden.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 11:31 AM

Today's update describes a thwarted attempt by Somali pirates to capture a Dutch ship off the coast of Tanzania, a thousand miles south of Northern Somalia: Click here for article

The ship was fired upon and was hit but was able to escape at its maximum speed.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 10:16 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:46 AM

Well, suggestions to invest in "pirate futures" may have been ill-advised given this statement from the Somali "government" in support of a draft UN resolution to permit UN forces to attach and pursue pirates at sea and on shore within Somali territory: click here for article

"The government cordially welcomes the United Nations to fight pirates inland and (on) the Indian Ocean," said Hussein Mohamed Mohamud, spokesman for Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf.

"We're also willing to give them a hand in case they need our assistance," Mohamud told Reuters in the capital Mogadishu.

Anyone willing to match my bet that it will be at least 6 months before the UN adopts this proposed resolution?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:36 AM

>"The government cordially welcomes you to fight pirates inland and (on) the Indian Ocean,"<

What a delightful invitation! Say no more I'm on my way.

It beats the tourism slogan of any other country. Bermuda paid an ad agency more than $10 million for "Out of the blue."

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM

There's a time limit on Listen Again - sorry.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:12 PM

Somebody's not eating their bran flakes!

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 12:48 PM

Heric-

If this wasn't such a serious story, real people being endangered for profit, it would make a great Woody Allen comedy. They even grow bananas in Somalia, or they used to!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:45 AM

Here's an update on some of the legal issues with regard to prosecuting "suspected pirates": click here for article

Interesting!

"Putting Pirates in the Dock" LOL

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 09:05 AM

For those keeping score, the Indian Navy announced today their successful capture of 23 suspected pirates, both Somali and Yemeni, in the Gulf of Aden: click here for article

In addition to the 12 Somali and 11 Yemeni suspects, the Indian navy seized two small boats and "a substantial cache of arms and equipment," the military said in a statement.

"Among the seized items were seven AK-47 automatic rifles, three other automatic weapons and 13 loaded magazines; a rocket-propelled grenade launcher along with rockets, cartridges and grenades; up to three outboard motors and a global positioning system receiver."

Now they've got the thorny problem of figuring out what to do with them.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 08:29 PM

Refreshing once!

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 10:06 AM

I know that it is a "serious" subject, and that, as adults, we are obliged to consider this issue with the appropriate gravity, but I must confess a certain child-like delight at hearing reports about battles with pirates on the morning news.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Dec 08 - 08:05 PM

Exactly!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Dec 08 - 12:57 PM

Here's a recent and more comprehensive article from Time Magazine with a haunting set of images of various captive "pirates": click here for article

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 05:18 AM

Well then M.Tted and Charley, I fervently hope that the pair of you get the opportunity to display that "certain child-like delight" when you actually experience a battle with pirates. A friend of mine, a Norwegian Merchant Navy Captain, has had three such encounters, all of which he said were terrifying, in the last he lost his left arm just below the elbow - he was wearing a watch you see. Because of this he will not be subjected to another mainly due to the fact that he can no longer "follow the sea" as a profession.

I read reports today that following attacks on three Chinese vessels the Chinese Government is sending a naval force to the area which should be interesting. It's the first time in 600 years that Chinese warships have left "home" waters.

On this the EU wants to pull its head out of its a**e and forget all this nonsense about "Piracy" being a crime, its not, its an act of war and should be responded to as such. Instructions with regard to rules of engagement to warships patrolling the area should be fire on sight and destroy. The intention should be to make anyone in Somalia think twice before they think of even taking a walk along the beach. I am totally disinterested in whatever excuses are invented for what is happening in that corner of the world, what is going on is totally unacceptable and that message must be impressed upon those engaged in this "business". The sooner that this is done the better as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 12:51 PM

Teribus-

That's an interesting point, that piracy is not a "crime" but an "act of war." But Somalia is a "failed state" and most observers agree that the current "government" is flying apart. Can there be "war" without a "state?" Or in your opinion, does it even matter.

"Firing on sight and destroying" may be the most effective deterrent for future piracy, but it also runs the risk of recruiting more volunteers for the world wide battle against the non-Moslem world, recruiting volunteers who were only interested in economic crimes. Furthermore military commanders in the Gulf of Aden are cautious about pursuing pirates to their home ports and destroying their infrastructure and homes, despite the new UN resolution. The collateral damage that would likely occur would also embitter people who have little else to lose.

You may be "totally disinterested in whatever excuses are invented" but that is precisely the kind of attitude that recruits volunteers for groups such as Al Qada.

I welcome the Chinese Navy in the Gulf of Aden and hope they have learned some lessons in when and how to use force to protect international commerce.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 07:30 PM

Point 1:
"That's an interesting point, that piracy is not a "crime" but an "act of war." But Somalia is a "failed state" and most observers agree that the current "government" is flying apart. Can there be "war" without a "state?" Or in your opinion, does it even matter."

Of course there can Charley, you are fighting a war now, the war on terror, where there is no state. It is one of the most important wars that western civilisation has ever fought, get your head round it and get behind it, because there is no negotiation with your foe, he wants you and your way of life destroyed completely.

Point 2:
"Firing on sight and destroying" may be the most effective deterrent for future piracy, but it also runs the risk of recruiting more volunteers for the world wide battle against the non-Moslem world, recruiting volunteers who were only interested in economic crimes."

As has been seen in Iraq where the likes of the Jihadists and Al-Qaeda have been tempted into "open" combat - they die, and they die in vast numbers. No risk, you hammer them from their ports, you hammer every bloody thing that sets out from the coasts of Somalia and Yemen, you imprint on their minds that it is they who must signal first to the world at large that they set sail with peaceful intent. Establish shipping lanes, then IF any daft twats in small boats armed to teeth with RPG7's and AK47's wander into those shipping lanes they will die. Death Charley is not a great a recruiting Sergeant, as Al-Qaeda has found in Iraq.

"Furthermore military commanders in the Gulf of Aden are cautious about pursuing pirates to their home ports and destroying their infrastructure and homes, despite the new UN resolution. The collateral damage that would likely occur would also embitter people who have little else to lose."

Then replace the military commanders for ones who will for every attempt at piracy will close the coast and subject "pirate" ports to 12 hours of naval bombardment, imprint on the minds of those living there that the pirates that you seem to love and romaticize about are a bloody liability, and I mean literally a "bloody" liability.

"You may be "totally disinterested in whatever excuses are invented" but that is precisely the kind of attitude that recruits volunteers for groups such as Al Qada."

Em, No it doesn't Charley, the fact that those who swell the "pirate" ranks think that they may get rich from their enterprise recruits volunteers. If your so-loved "pirates" and the people in the communities that support them start dying in droves because of the activities of "pirates" them the learning curve becomes quite short and "piracy" as an occupation gets abandoned pdq on account of the health risks involved.

"I welcome the Chinese Navy in the Gulf of Aden and hope they have learned some lessons in when and how to use force to protect international commerce."

I said that I would be interested to see what the Chinese Naval forces are going to do. My bet, it will be like a repeat of the Russian Fleet sailing to take on the Japanese in 1905. They have no distant force projection experience, their RAS skills if anything like the old Soviet Navy will be laughable, their effectiveness minimal.

Pirates, Charley Noble, you engage on sight, you do everything in your power to sink them on sight, they have no human rights, they left those behind ashore the minute they set sail to plunder and rob, they, through choice, put themselves outwith the law. You do not take prisoners, you do not capture people for trials, you kill them there and then. Lessons learned are then simple and very, very clear to understand from everybodies point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:43 PM

Teribus-

Fortunately for the American armed forces, General Petraeus radically changed the tactics used for putting down the Iraqi insurrection. He replaced the shoot on sight, call in air support when you're in difficulty, with hiring former militants to root out the more radical domestic elements and their foreign allies. Having the smarts to know who to hire and who not to hire has helped in a major way to make the surge a military success; our manpower and military hardware would never have been sufficient unless we were willing to slaughter every Iraqi man women and child, and that would have been an unacceptable victory.

With regard to the Somalis, I would hardly recommend what appears to be your preferred military response. Who was it who first said "If every problem were a nail, the hammer would be the solution"?

Understanding your enemy, his strengths and his weaknesses, is key to success.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 12:56 AM

You are comparing apples to oranges and you know it.

What you are looking at off the coasts of Somalia and Yemen has no "political" dimension, what the "pirates" are doing is solely for monetary gain.

General Paraeus had an Iraqi Government to work with, in Somalia there is nothing.

Your "solution":

"And that is called paying the Dane-geld;
But we've proved it again and again,
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane."

Courtesy of Rudyard Kipling.

Pirates are vermin and should be put down as such - it discourages others who might fancy trying to make a living that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 07:35 PM

Surprisingly, we won't agree on this thread discussion either.

And it is General "Petraeus" for the record. When I can't spell someone's name I utilize copy and paste.

The Somali pirates need to be put down but describing them (and all other pirates) as "vermin" ignores who they actually are and why they are doing what they are doing.

It seems naive to me that you think there are no political dimensions to what is occurring in the Gulf of Aden.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 12:38 AM

Again, it's a case of the doctor treating the symptoms rather than looking at the causes & the actual reality of the situation. While I see pirates in the same light as terrorists, which is they belong in hell, that doesn't mean blast away like we do everywhere else. With just a bit of study & examination of the problem we're much more likely to come up with a better solution than the Iraqi "fire away at every thing & everyone" way.
It's always "fire away", not one ounce of thought about the pros & cons, not thought about the who gets clobbered along the way & why, not thought about what's created the situation, no thought of talk, no thoughts at all, it's no wonder we are in such a mess everywhere we go, christ we didn't even know how some middle east cultures had a hate dogs when we baited them with Fido. Same damn reaction we use when it comes to terrorists, not thought, no reason, no use talking, some will never seek out the causes they only care to treat pronblem by treating the symptoms & they never understand that unless we find the cause the problems will never be cured.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:31 PM

Barry-

Thanks for supporting a more balanced approach to dealing with piracy than that advocated by our straight-shooting messmate above.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:40 PM

Meanwhile here's an update on the issues facing the Obama Administration when it comes to power in January: click here for article

I can't resist quoting one paragraph which has a delightful typo:

"Ethiopia, which has been protecting the ineffectual and fractured Somali government, recently announced it would withdraw its troops by the end of this month. That will leave the Western-baked (sic) government vulnerable to Islamic insurgents and further chaos."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 10:37 AM

Here's an update on the Chinese Navy's effort to deal with the Somali pirates in the Gulf of Aden: Click here for article

The Chinese are estimating that there are some 30 different groups of pirates with a total membership of a 1000. That's not including the pirate wantabees on Mudcat.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:25 AM

Here's a link to where an attempt has been made to map where Somali pirates have captured ships for ransom: Click here for article!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Steve Benbows protege
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 07:32 PM

What made me laugh is that traditionally pirates always had an English "West Country" accent. - Think/Google "Yellow beard" etc

Better ring Hollywood and make sure they now have Somali accents.....

Who's up for remaking some classic pirate films and are we still allowed to shout "ahar jim lad" in our best west country pirate accents?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 10:22 PM

Well, not a bad haul, $3 million for a Saudi oil tanker. According to the news reports the loot was parachuted to the deck of the tanker, directly accessible to the resident pirates. I do wonder how the pirates plan to escape.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Jan 09 - 11:26 PM

Oh, here's a link to the rest of the story from an "embedded" journalist pirate: Click here for article!

It's not easy to divide $3 million.

Maybe giving them all that loot is the final solution for destroying the pirates.

Weird!

But true!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Barry Finn
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 12:59 AM

15 men on a dead man's chest

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 11:18 AM

Yo, ho, ho and a bottle of araqi (arab white lightning)!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: curmudgeon
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

Easy Come, easy go!

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Jan 09 - 05:08 PM

Tom-

Well, such piracy is a risky business.

Thanks for the update.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 03:12 PM

"The body of a Somali pirate who reportedly drowned soon after receiving a huge ransom has washed ashore with $153,000 in cash, his uncle says.

The man was one of a group of pirates who seized the Saudi supertanker Sirius Star in November.

They reportedly received $3m (£1.95m) for freeing the tanker but five were said to have drowned after fleeing.

A relative of the drowned pirate told the BBC the family was now trying to dry out the recovered money.

The pirates' boat capsized when they were hit by rough seas as they were heading back to their homes in central Somalia, the leader of the pirates told AFP.

'Parachute drop'

The pirates disembarked the Sirius Star on Friday, after a small plane was seen apparently dropping the ransom by parachute on to the tanker.

A negotiator for the pirates told the BBC's reporter in Mogadishu by telephone that a $3m ransom had been paid shortly after the ship was released.

The ship's owner has refused to comment.

The tanker had been held for nearly two months off the coast of Somalia, near the town of Harardhere.

Eyewitnesses in the coastal town said five of the pirates had drowned while trying to make off with the loot.

"One of them was discovered and they are still looking for the other ones," resident Omar Abdi Hassan told the BBC.

The uncle of the pirate who washed ashore, Abukar Sheikh Hassan, told the BBC that the family had found $153,000 in a plastic bag in his pocket.

He said some of the money was wet and the family was now trying to dry it out." (BBC News)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

The irony of Poetic Justice.
May they all go to their watery graves

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 07:50 PM

The CNN report this evening from one of the pirate survivors claimed that they had almost made it ashore when other pirates, on shore, began firing at them. It's when they tried to head back out to sea that their small boat capsized.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Jan 09 - 09:51 PM

Charley is your trip still a go?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Heric-

Yes, but only to the highlands of Ethiopia. No wqy I'm going anywhere near Somalia.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

Not to be a bore but the Somalis have made another major capture, this time a German tanker loaded with Liquid Natural Gas (LNG). The link doesn't provide as much information as my morning newspaper: Click here for report

LNG is of course highly explosive.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM

Now that is one that warrants keeping a very close eye on and should be boarded, taken under command and carefully searched as soon as it has been "released" by those "Jolly Pirate" Chaps. Not quite as dangerous as LPG, but if a terrorist group did play their cards right with this LNG carrier it could be turned into a "Terrorist Spectacular" that would make the attacks of 9/11 look like a minor misdemeanor.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM

Teribus-

My mistake. It was a LPG tanker, the MV Longehamp.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:16 AM

Yep MV Longchamp LPG Tanker, put in the "right" place with the vents open then detonated, the effect would be similar to that of a small nuclear weapon or more accurately a Massive Ordinance Air Burst bomb (MOAB).

Detonated in the "right" port this could kill about up to about 500,000 people.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM

Teribus-

However, it seems that the Somali pirates are more interested in ransom than terroristic acts.

Some of us have raised your question with regard to LPG tankers berthing in major populated areas in the States, and were always told that the capture of such a ship was extremely unlikely. Hah!

I'm still astounded that such ships navigate the seven seas without a security detachment.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:08 AM

So the Somali pirayes are only interested in money, so I take it they will not be too concerned about who pays it, doesn't necessarily have to be the vessel's owners does it.

Those engaged in anti-piracy patrols should watch this ship very carefully and the second it is "released" it should quarantined and searched before it is allowed to proceed.

None of which alters the fact that what is happening off the shores of Somalia is unacceptable and if the rest of the world want this practice stopped they should start doing something concrete to erradicate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Les from Hull
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:42 PM

It seems to me that the best solution against this sort of piracy would be the use of 'Q ships'. Concealing a few 30mm cannon on a tanker and sending it to sea with a navy crew shouldn't be too difficult for any of the nations whose vessels are at risk in these waters. Mind you, for all I know they may be already doing this.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:24 PM

Les-

We were musing about Q-ships somewhat earlier in this thread.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:55 AM

Q ships are not the answer, they were never really that effective during time of war as the Q-ship had to stumble across the path of a submarine or surface raider. Likewise in this situation it would be hit and miss and the Q-ship would only be able to take on the small boats that the pirates are using in their attacks, the pirate's "mother-ship" would remain safe, out of sight and range.

If you want to stop the pirates you hit the bases from which they operate.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:33 AM

Here's an update on the status of the Ukrainian ship the Faina, the one loaded to the gunwales with tanks and other heavy weapons: Click here for article!

Evidently the pirates have settled for $3 million as a ransom, plus the movie rights to their saga.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:51 PM

This evening's news had images of the ransom being parachuted to the pirates.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:17 AM

"If you want to stop the pirates you hit the bases from which they operate."

Yes. That would be the most effective military response to the present situation. That's certainly what I would recommend if I were in command of an anti-piracy effort in those waters.

Meanwhile, however...according to a recent article someone linked to below...

"Piracy is one of the few ways to make money in Somalia. Half the population is dependent on aid and a whole generation has grown up knowing nothing but war. A recent report by London's Chatham House think-tank said pirates raked in more than $30 million in ransoms last year."

So, that desperate situation is the engine that is driving the growth of piracy in the region, and the piracy becomes inevitable under those circumstances. Smashing their coastal bases would temporarily shut them down, but the only thing that could permanently cure the problem would be to improve financial conditions for ordinary people in Somalia, to rescue a society that has fallen apart and been abandoned to fester in its own isolation and despair...

No one seems willing to take that burden on. Not surprising, when you think about it...specially in these bad economic times. Who, after all, would be the first to say "We'll do it." ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:20 AM

Seems as if the pirates got away with the loot, with the naval forces judiciously watching: click here for article!

Pirate spokesman Aden Abdi Omar reported that they were all safe ashore, and having a good time painting Sailortown red.

The Navy did not take action against the pirates because they still hold many hostages from other ships, said Cmdr. Jane Campbell, a spokeswoman for the U.S. Navy's Bahrain-based 5th Fleet. "Even when you release Faina, there are still 147 mariners held hostage," Campbell told the AP. "We're concerned for their well-being."

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM

Here's some more musing about why it's gonna be difficult to eradicate piracy in the Gulf of Aden: click here!

Blackwater Security to the rescue?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 01:04 AM

"Recent reports indicate the North Carolina-based firm is building a small but potent flotilla to deliver maritime protection against the increased threat of international piracy.

Pirates were on the wane and marginalized to a select few global waterways only a few years ago," - From link supplied by Charley Noble

Blackwater's ships are certainly not news, they've been operating their "Q" ships for some time without any great deal of success.

As to piracy having been on the wane, I don't know so much about that, it has been steadily on the increase in far eastern waters, in the Gulf of Aden and off Nigeria since the British withdrew from east of Suez in the 1960's.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 08:15 AM

Teribus-

If only "the British" hadn't withdrawn from east of Suez in the 1960's!

But you really weren't suggesting that as a preferred option.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

Certainly not Charley, the current state of affairs just reminds of a converstion I remember from about that time where someone observed that it had been the presence of the Royal Navy in Aden and in Singapore that had been the force that had erradicated piracy or reduced it to a negligible level and who then went on to venture the opinion that once gone the "trade" would resume as it had done before. Events proved him to be 100% correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:55 PM

Teribus-

Noted.

We both agree that the present situation is outrageous. And that there is no substitute for a well trained navel presence in the Gulf of Aden.

I do wish there were alternative initiatives that would address the economic and security concerns of the Somali people; they are not all practicing pirates nor practicing terrorists.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM

Score two for the U.S. Navy. They have captured two skiffs loaded to the gunwales with Somali pirates on two successive days. Each skiff was in the process of attacking a merchant ship.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:50 AM

Also some reports today about the Russians capturing 10 pirates in three small speed boats.

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For later discussion, please see threads crosslinked above.
-Joe Offer-