Discount CDs at gigs

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:16 PM

Sorry I forgot to add - that a few clubs/venues do kindly offer to help sell CDs (Hi Surreysinger - thanks again)! But this is rare.

If it happens we'll agree the price and cut (if there is one), at the time. But again - it'll just be my CDs (unless there's a support act, who are unlikely to be charging more - I don't mind them charging less because if people want me they'll have to buy me) - so I can set what price I think is right.

Tom

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 06:11 PM

I'm not following you JohnB. The typical price here in the UK, at the type of gig mentioned in the OP, is £10. And we've stayed at that for a long time, probably for reasons of convenience. (There may be a jump to £15 eventually, if CDs survive that long). Some people do sell for less or more, for various reasons, but £10 suits me, and people seem happy to pay it. (I have people buying 4 or 5 CDs sometimes, and a discount for multiples had never occurred to me before this thread).

For me, a standard figure of £8 would have to be a discount to encourage sales, and I was explaining that this doesn't really make sense, given the true cost of production, the low level of salary/income and the convenience/hassle factor.

Mutli-act gigs/festivals are a very different matter.

Here you're either selling on the hoof, as you dash out to the next gig, (so what other acts are charging is irrelevant - they're not in your shop) or you're selling at a separate stall set up by and manned by the organisers.

Now here, you DO need to look at what others are charging. If the going rate is £12 then I'd sell at that and give £2 to the stall holder for his or her work (or whatever we agree or is stipulated). They will have time and facilities to handle change and keep a record of sales - and that's what I'm paying them to do. If I bother.

Truth is I sell very few CDs at festival stalls. The urge to buy comes right after my set, while the emotions are still running high, and that's where I'll try to be selling. If I leave my CDs on a table in a tent on the far side of the site, among all the big names and old guards and 70s collectors vinyl I may not sell a single copy. And the guys who were desperate for a copy after my set have been washed out by the next brilliant act, so never go looking for my CDs half a mile away. I may even forget to go collect my returns!

Tom

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: meself
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:35 PM

"The difference between the retailers price and the artiste's maybe"

So you got my point exactly, but I'm not sure you got LesB's - that he wants the artist to get the profit that would otherwise have gone to the retailer (while simultaneously giving the customer a discount ... )

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JohnB
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 04:04 PM

OK so BULL might be the wrong phrase now, it's based more on my own feelings about what happened here. My reasoning is not necessarily to charge less but to charge more.
We (my wife sells morethan I do) were here to sell tickets for a concert but had problems due to the price when you round up ticket prices you double the roundup ammount for a couple buying tickets.
SO! how does your system work when everone else is charging 12 or 13 local units for a CD. Do you stay at 12 and be underpriced or go to 15 and not sell any? That's why I "don't like" people NOT using change as an excuse to round things up or down as applicable.
Another part of my reasoning is that here (Canada) the groups I have been involved with provide a person (free admission) who sits by a CD table all night and sells your CD's for you. This is done with or without a percentage commission as per the feelings of the particular organization.
Nothing personal was meant,by BULL. JohnB.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:23 PM

JohnB

May I tactfully opine that 'total BULL' could be a little harsh and slightly unfeeling?

Maybe I didn't explain properly.

By 'break point' I was referring to the point at which the increase in demand caused by the discount meets the decreased income caused by the discount - i.e. no net gain. Yet the going rate is £10, and I sell enough at that price to keep me happy, so have no incentive to offer a discount, specially as carrying sufficient change would be a major hassle, as would be the need to man the CD table at all times.

The 'hedge veg' system doesn't work if you need to fiddle with coins, and standing by the CDs all night can make a chap look a little sad and desperate. Also, believe it or not, I may have other things to do; to visit the gents, tune my guitar, pop to the bar for water, chat to the organiser or other chums, answer questions in the corridor about lyrics, back-stories, guitar tunings, recording techniques, microphones, someone's visit to Sark, how Tom's elbow is, and so on.

Maybe you are not aware of the mechanics of solo touring? Jed and Villain have mentioned the problems associated with carrying round large quantities of metalwork. I would add that I already have enough trouble keeping my folding stash safe on tour. If I don't go to a bank to 'launder some eagle,' I come home with a sizeable wad. I also have two (or three) foot journeys in and out of every gig with six or seven heavy items to carry. The requisite money bag would be too big for my pocket, and would oust a sizeable block of product form the 'shop box.'

No, I don't think my system is 'total BULL.' 'Businesslike in a non-business environment' would be closer to the mark, I submit.

Tom

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:19 PM

The difference between the retailers price and the artiste's maybe

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: meself
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:12 PM

LesB: You're trying to have it both ways: you say you want the 'Artist' to 'get the retailers profit', but you also want a discount. Guess what? If the artist is giving you a discount, he is not getting the retailer's profit - where do you think the discount comes from?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: LesB
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:48 PM

5 for a CD is not enough, but I would expect a discount from the normal retail price when bought at a gig. In fact I only ever buy CD's at gigs. I would rather the Artist get the retailers profit & I get a discount (a couple of quid), then we are all happy. Although the best buy I got was a home made CD by Tony Wilson for £5, (he only had a couple left), with 20 odd songs on it.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:06 PM

calm down Peace, its only a discussion.

Thanks Max, for making mudcat available.

I'm happy if the CD plays on my machines and I can listen to the songs, thats all I ask. The rest is just details.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:55 PM

Breezy,

Yes, I would expect to get it cheaper at the gig than in the high street. Firstly, artists are probably going to make more profit from CDs they sell direct than from those in the high street, so they benefit if you buy from them. Secondly, its good marketing to encourage you to buy there and then, while you're in the buying mood. But if artists choose to charge full price that's their decision.

I'm not suggesting artists shouldn't discount their records at a gig. What I'm saying is that paying to get into the gig doesn't entitle you to get the CD cheap.

On the question of shrink-wrapping, I frequently come across articles advising that CDs should be shrink-wrapped as it looks more professional and distinguishes them from home-made CD-Rs.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 12:32 PM

That doesn't sound peaceful!

;-)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 03:15 AM

Discount my ass. I ain't Walmart.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Jed on a borrowed PC
Date: 17 Jan 09 - 02:41 AM

I do the same as Tom. My discounts are based on my ability and and willingness to manage change. We are not working a high volume sales environment with cash drawer and help ... we're handling between 10 and 50 or so product that must be managed, usually personally and with the focus in the chat with the customer/listener.

YES - Seamus I've had venues charge a percentage. I'd rather they charge a set fee, but some do a percentage - and that hurts. I make sure my base is high enough to compensate. I understand they need to cover their expenses, but I have to figure how much it will cost me and be sure the whole package is worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 05:13 PM

Off topic, but "Splat oringe"?

Sneezy, I like it!

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 01:46 PM

Wow Susan, that's a great idea, can it really be made to happen?

CAN happen is in my head. WILL happen is in the head of whoever runs with it. The trick would be to set it up as I described, as a pilot, offCat, like Audiobooksforfree.com does-- and then offer it to the Cat. Or PM Max or other site leaders. Ah spawns 'em but Ah don't run 'em anymore-- ideas I mean.

~S~

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM

JohnB
Have you ever thought that becuase you weren't there, you didn't sell as many tickets.

I know what Tom means as far as £8 is concerned. We normally charge £8 to get in. everybody comes with a tenner or twenty pound note. I have to make sure I have a least £50 worth of £1 coins.

However, what is interesting, is that for the first time on Saturday I am charging £10 to get in for Vin Garbutt. Guess what SOLD OUT and a waiting list. It will be dead easy for me to get the dosh this time. I wonder how many CD's Vin will sell and at what price.

Just seems the opposite to what you have said. :-)

Les

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JohnB
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 12:07 PM

From an earlier post from Guest Tom Bliss "The break point is about £8. But that would mean carrying around a big bag of coins and faffing about at the CD stall - and life's too short!"
This is total BULL, how can anyone justify such a price structure. It means you can only charge 5, 10, 20 units of your available paper money for your product. There is nothing wrong with making change, that's what it's for, to charge a correct price for a product, not more, or less. If your CD is worth 12 quid and you can justify the price, then sell it for that.
I belong to a group who put on one concert a year, it comes with or without a meal. Due to increases by our caterer last year our costs were going up around 2$. In my absence due to holidays, the group decided to round up the costs (to avoid making change) the result was around a 10-15% drop in overall ticket sales. What good does that do for CD sales?.
More Bums in Seats = more CD sales. Therfore it is a better bet to keep the ticket costs low than the CD costs.
JohnB

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:38 AM

Breezy Please

Well I watch live football on Sky. So why not have a monthly package fee to watch live shows (Folk)- (hmm maybe I could interest Sky to come along to Faldingworth each month) - same principle. Or like the Sky Box Office for Films. We couldthen pay big big fees to the performers a bit like what Kaka earns.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 11:22 AM

Wow Susan, thats a great idea, can it really be made to happen?

George ,Hamish do you understand the concept?

Does this mean that Matt has an idea that Jed can use?

Kids back home now so I may be ousted

thanks for your company today

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:36 AM

Matt, you may be right. What I really meant was that the total pot of gig fees will go up as the live gig market expands further, not necessarily (or only) the individual fee for a particular artist. Individual fees will depend on whether more venues become available etc.

Don't discount either the possibility of live gigs on the internet, where you pays your fee and then you are allowed to connect to the camera feed during a particular timeslot. It's a poor man's "live", but live nevertheless. This month has seen the start of live opera and orchestra performances being piped into cinemas in the UK, where you still pay an entrance fee, though not as high as if you were in front of the real thing, of course.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:14 AM

Folks, the way to do the MP3 thing is just to sign requestors up on an email list where they pay you for the link to the free download. You decide what that "membership" fee is and how many downloads or what time period it covers. You just run it on their card or let them do it later in rtesponse to your "member's" emailing, via PayPal.

You can add that "service" to your email promo list too, as well as put it on your website. Look at how Audiobooksforfree.com does their purchase downloads.

For a REAL big idea-- let MAX manage the tech end of it right here, for a MudCut.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:08 AM

Seamus - I love your wallet packaging and your artwork is first class! I would prefer to use it myself for the "shelf-life" issue alone (that is, reducing the damage they get in being carried or shipped around before they're sold). But I've been inside a number of radios stations and I've seen their libraries. Granted I did no scientific study - but I've never seen anything but plastic jewel cases in the racks. I've also heard DJs say they don't even open packages that are non-standard. Now that may be changing, and there are sure to be exception - but I am playing the odds by staying with plastic for now. I am nearly convinced your wallet packaging is worthwhile for me - but I would do a separate run for radio.

breezy - yes, I really do plan 500 of a new title for radio. I just released a new album in Nov and 250 are already out. I have another 150 ready to go and will save the rest for the add-ons.


The future of CDs I think is uncertain. I am sure music artists will continue to make albums and sell via CD. My CD sales still outnumber my Digital sales. It is still the best medium for face-to-face sales, and that is important part of the live performance business - so I don't see that disappearing.

Like Seamus said above, I look forward to the day when folks at shows can simply place their iPods or Blackberries into a portable docking station that I carry with my laptop, pay the $1.50/song or $15/album and download the whole thing in seconds. They could get a whole printable artwork package the same way - even if that came in a subsequent email.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:03 AM

no, shant.

you didnt say 'Please'

no

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 10:01 AM

Say hello to Steve for me John.
Les

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:51 AM

That happened in Padstow at the Golden Lion bout 20 year ago.

The opening night was packed, 50 plus attendees, room was free,, so came a demand for rent

the following night, after the demand for rent, the club was empty,

Chico got nowt and lost the club, it has never returned.

So that could happen and already there are clubs paying rent they can ill afford.

But in Redbourn the club has returned to its spiritual home at the Hollybush, small snug and intimate and now patronised by the landlady who values the club

Steve Tilston there tonight

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: matt milton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:38 AM

"I believe that in the next 12-24 months we will see CD sales being eclipsed (not just overtaken) by downloads, though the CD format will not disappear altogether for various reasons. If this does come to pass, then we will see truly how wrong that opening line was. But I believe something else will happen too: As recorded music (be it downloaded or whatever) becomes always cheaper and accessible, by contrast the value of live music increases. Where once artists did gigs to promote CD sales, because that was where most of their income came from, we will see people giving away music to attract people to their gigs - and gig fees will strengthen along with the increased value of live music."

you took the words right out of my mouth. The live experience is the one thing that'll remain unique, specifically because it's undownloadable and undigitisable.

The only way I differ from you is that I'm not quite as optimistic as you are regarding gig fees going up. In my experience, living in London where rents are absurd, landlords of pubs charge a fee for the use of their function room that makes profiting from live gigs an uphill struggle. I can't help but think if a landlord notices increased attendances at gigs he might well start upping the rent fee too. But maybe I'm being over-cynical.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

'shrink wrapped' may require some explanation to those undergoing therapy.

those plastic cases are highly breakable and the wrapping is wasteful and no one nicks em from stores, cos there 'folk'

And isnt it a shame the govt has declared its intention to go ahead with a terd runway at heathrow.

or as the scots mae sae

a broon hoon has s55t on us

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:17 AM

Dick
It should have read

Captain Birdseye.
If you are a professional performer then you should be professional about everything related to your business. Its your image and your pride. For £10 quid or more, we expect the real deal. That is a customer comment from me. I do not sing or play. I am one of the audience or punter as some people rudely say.

"If you are a professional performer" was meant as a general comment and not directed at you. Sorry about that.

I am well aware of your capabilties.
Les Worrall

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:04 AM

the Villan,I am professional about everything I do, http://www.dickmiles.com have a look at my website.I dont need a lecture on professionalism.
two of my cds are shrink wrapped one isnt,it has made no difference to sales.,and while it may protect from the damp,has nothing to do with the qualitry of the music.
content before form,most people buy cds because they have enjoyed the evening,not because they are shrink wrapped.
cds can be well designed and professionally produced without being shrink wrapped.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 09:00 AM

hi Howard

but you would expect it cheaper than in the high street would you not?

'appropriate'

£8 is a good price do you not think?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:57 AM

Oh and PS, discounts for multiple purchases do work. When I have been selling them that way I have never seen 2-3 people buddy up to go in on it together and reduce their cost. They're too star-struck to think of it, I guess. :~)

Re: wallet cases instead of jewel. I hated them at first, but now I like them. Easier to manage in the car.

Sometime I should write up what I have learned when helping artists sell their CDs. Let me just say that a good salesperson and former candy-counter cashier can double your sales (in exchange for a CD, LOL).

~S~

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

Tom , put on tracks already on your album, there that saved time. no charge.

Reinforce the songs you know and only add 4 maximum for the tour. there more time saved , no charge.

George, youre late, apologies as read, you dropping anything , including trousers, will not have any bearing on anyone else. me dropping my prices will not make people rush to buy me over anyone else.

Hearing an artiste does make one go and listen, otherwise I would not have gone to hear, Peter ,Paul and mary, Bob Dylan, The Clancy's, the Beatles etc so that argument is not new. The problem is , hearing then to begin with.

greg , when I listen to a song I wish to be in a darkened room with no distractions, so I wont want to read anything at that point. Should I find I need further info then I would do my research and if 'twere handy all well and good.
btw watch for a decline in attendees during feb and march, good luck

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM

The entry fee to a gig entitles you to see the live performance, nothing more, nothing less. Why should it entitle you to a discount on any merchandise? Do you expect a discount on your beer as well? If the artist runs out of CDs do you ask the venue for a refund?

If the artist sells CDs, they'll price them at what they think is appropriate. Some will decide that it's worth discounting them because they hope to sell more, others may not. They may be constrained by their record company. If they price them too high, they won't sell. If you don't like the price being asked, you don't have to buy it, you can try to get it cheaper elsewhere.

Why is that hard to understand?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:32 AM

George P is optimistic about rising audiences coming our way. I thiunk this happening, and is going to continue. In spite of the economic down turn, there are definite straws in the wind showing that live gigs are on the up and up. That is my own experience, certainly.
At the most mundane level, we do a monthly informal gig in our local pub. People have started coming earlier to get good seats over the last six months: including a gig on Jan 7, which you would think was the ultimate pits of the year.THat I fion d interesting. And there are new venues/clubs opening, festivals all over the place. George could be right(I hope). AS regards CD sales...I dont see them collapsiong for folkies in the next year or two, but I expect a general decline is coming. What we all need to do is make them worth owning...nice looking, good booklet. They will never be as good(or as practically useful!) as LP covers, but they do have something going for them. I certainly like something to have a look at when I sit down to enjoy my first listen to a CD(generally my only listen, unfortunately, these days!).

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:31 AM

Too much time? I wish!

I'm learning new stuff for the spring tours, recording two tracks for a charity CD and practising for tonight - first gig after Christmas break.

Oh and sorting out village hall tours.

I just drop in here for light relief!

T

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

The subject of CD production cost v sale price having been dealt with at length, I want to address Breezy's opening line: "If i pay £10 admission , or even £8 should not the artiste ask a more inviting price for their CDs e.g £5 as they will already be getting a fee?.

False argument, John, because the entrance fee is not controlled except to a small degree by the artist (may be subsidised by singers' nights or not, or by some grant etc). The organiser has -rightly - much bigger say in that. So you cannot ask the artist to modify the CD sale price based on such a premise. Neither should the artist's fee be dependent on "CD sale opportunity" (an argument that sadly I still hear from time to time). That would be a little like asking a restaurant to drop their menu prices because of the tipping opportunity (OK, I know the analogy is not brilliant, but you know what I mean). The fact is that performing and CD sales are two distinct transactions, which can influence each other up to a point, but which have no bearing on each other's underlying cost.

Unless the venue can guarantee a minimum number of CD sales (and pigs will fly).

But there are other reasons than cost affecting CD price also. Promotion, for example. As those who come to my gigs will know - because I often refer to this in my intros - my main objective is to "get the songs out", and in order to serve that objective I may keep a low price, or even give CDs away. I suspect, without knowing for certain, that AJC has a similar objective and reasoning. And I am fortunate that I do not depend on my music income, having a day job - though I still want to at least break even.

And yet, I am also aware that if I drop the price too far, too fast, I will put unbearable pressure on those who do depend on CD sales for their income. And I don't want that on my conscience.

I believe that in the next 12-24 months we will see CD sales being eclipsed (not just overtaken) by downloads, though the CD format will not disappear altogether for various reasons. If this does come to pass, then we will see truly how wrong that opening line was. But I believe something else will happen too: As recorded music (be it downloaded or whatever) becomes always cheaper and accessible, by contrast the value of live music increases. Where once artists did gigs to promote CD sales, because that was where most of their income came from, we will see people giving away music to attract people to their gigs - and gig fees will strengthen along with the increased value of live music.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:22 AM

from breezy, to matt, with hand over mouth to hide smirk,

bit extreme, couldnt you have got it out with a penknife?


I put the kids to supervising the burning and by the time I package and label one then , hey, here comes another !

To Tom

The Violin
Mary Prout
Spirit

are my 3 faves but confess to having not heard much of the others as of yet

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: matt milton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:11 AM

I rather confused things by mentioning the Lightscribe thing. That's something that isn't anything to do with the project I was describing. I bought myself the lightscribe burner when I had a CD stuck in my drive (a folk CDR, as it happens!) and urgently needed to save some files for day-job work. I only use it for making one-off CDs or demos: I don't think it's worth the time and effort in trying to home-burn more than 50 CDRs.

but I do think Lightscribe technology is a very interesting development. For those that don't know, you can burn audio or data to them just like a normal CD; but it also 'prints' onto the body of the CD by burning with a laser. So no ink. No labels. And I think it looks smarter than a conventional label. (Part of me also quite likes the fact that it's an "engraving" of sorts, albeit with a laser: shades of William Blake.)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:10 AM

hello Gene

welcome to the discussion

I'll give you more time to catch up first

Sorry you are at work, glad someone is


Hey jonny, you must learn to control those shakes, must be from outatown

Tom , like me today you appear to have too much time on your hands, I did 4 hours yesterday, and it was cold, or are you adding this time to the costs as well [;0[] just going to put you on as I havent heard you for a while and I do like some of your songs, if I cant make out a particular word or phrase , may I ask you to clarify, as I'm slightly mutton at least according to my wife a kids.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:05 AM

Captain Birdseye, if you are a professional performer then you should be professional about everything related to your business. Its your image and your pride. For £10 quid or more, we expect the real deal. That is a customer comment from me. I do not sing or play. I am one of the audience or punter as some people rudely say.
I mentioned shrink wrapping etc, etc , becuase to the person buying, they can see that a lot of care and attention has gone into producing the CD and visually is more marketable.
I agree about the music.
I get quite a few CD's as an organsier and to be honest 90% could go straight in the bin. Don't go down that route.
You must look at your customer and give them the very best you can do. It reaps benefits in the end.

The Churchfitters spring to mind. The qaulity of their Cd's including the artwork shows a lot of care and attention has gone into what they do. Take a look http://www.churchfitters.com/ediscographie.php
Their act is excellent as well. So much so, my audience demanded that I get them back again. They care about their image.

They are not the only ones, but I have used them as an example.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:02 AM

Breezy, am I from over where? Wales isn't normally described as "over there" in the UK!

We've had the discussion on the costs of making CDs before, and yes, you can make them for very little money if you record at home and use other people's resources for producing the printed parts. With all due respect to Matt, that's not normally the kind of product on sale at gigs for £10. I can tell you that my most recent CD, recorded in a studio with four musicians adding their contributions (but some giving their time and expertise for free), some travel to and from the studio and the final result professionally manufactured with eco-friendly packaging (but yes, with cellophane wrap I'm afraid ...it does make a difference in some circumstances) has cost me in the region of £3,000.
A certain number will be given out as review copies, airplay copies or other promotional reasons. Yes, I will make a profit on the other sales as I pre-sold enough to cover most of the costs, but I'm not making enough money at gigs or anywhere else to feel I can afford to discount my prices at gigs - perhaps if I was playing big venues and taking large fees I would feel differently about it all. And, as I said, where possible (at the moment family finance means it's not possible) I'm putting album sales money to one side ready to create future CDs.

I've just done my accounts for 07/08, a year in which I thought I'd done far better than ever before, and was somewhat gobsmacked when I totalled up my total income (including some supply teaching). Far and away less than I would have thought, to the extent that when I put in my expenses once again I find I'm owed tax rather than needing to pay it. So I don't think we musicians/storytellers/songwriters should be the automatic target for requesting discounts!

Anne

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM

Dick,
I agree shrink-wrap is wasteful and unnecessary, but I'm personally glad that my CDs are protected from beer spillage, damp and the British climate ;-)

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: Gene Burton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 08:00 AM

Haven't had time to read the whole thread as I'm at work, sorry.

I only charge a fiver for my CDs, or 6 if I have to send them; and still make a small profit on them. It certainly can be done.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM

I was kind of assuming that was the case Matt. I've got some wonderful CDs made that way, which i really enjoy listening to.

My points were in defence of the 'market rate' of £10 per CD for a 'produced' product. (And I forgot to include MCPS licences, which some will have to pay).

I also forgot to include the costs of promo copies (including postage and packaging) and magazine adverts - which are not cheap.

I don't really like jewel cases either, but the CDs I have in card cases are all looking very shabby, and can't easily be repaired. If a jewel case breaks, and they often do, it's fairly easy to swap with an old CD you don't listen to very often. Stacking and storage is easier with jewels too.

Keyproduction looks like a good deal. Best of luck with it.

Tom

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: breezy
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:50 AM

Thanks for that matt

If you want it louder, then get closer to the mics!

140 euros for the scribe.

Good luck, its great to have a hobby like this.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: matt milton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:41 AM

that last statement was a bit of a cop-out, on reflection. I do want to make the point that the packaging of a CD really does seem to be quite a disproportionate part of its cost, and if there's any way of cutting that out, it significantly alters the maths.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: matt milton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:37 AM

Tom

(can't work out how to quote on here)

No, they're not CDRs (according to the website). I'm going to use www.keyproduction.co.uk

You're right about those other costs: I haven't factored them in. But most of them don't apply in my case. I don't use a recording studio. I record at home and it's a very simple set-up. Voice and guitar, or voice and mandolin. The occasional overdub. there are no guest musicians bar my sister adding a harmony on a couple of tracks.

I work for a multinational corporation, who pay me very little and demand a lot, so I have no qualms about using their printer ink and other office resources. I'm well aware of the pratfalls of spilled beer on paper sleeves, but the costs I'm talking about, I can write-off quite a few. And, like quite a few other voices on this thread, I get really fed up with jewel cases. I'm happy to replace the odd soggy paper sleeve with jewel cases from my own CD collection frankly! I'm going to be packing CDs into sleeves during my work lunchbreaks, while watching TV, and on the bus on the way to gigs.

The only real significant extra cost I haven't included is mastering: £20 per track at www.littlebazaar.co.uk. I'm not going to attend a mastering session, but their promise is money-back if you're not satisfied. It shouldn't – fingers crossed – be a big deal, as all I want is a louder version of what I already have.

I also haven't included the cost of my equipment in this. I have two expensive Coles 4038 mics for instance, which are the most professional pieces of kit I own. I could factor in the cost of my guitar, banjo, and fiddle too. But, well, these are things that I would probably own whether or not I had decided to put out a CD. And I think even if I did factor in all this stuff, I could still afford to cost those CDs at £5 and make a profit. I'm even considering just giving them away, and claiming a proportion of the expenses of producing them as "promotion" on my company accounts.

Ultimately though, I'm not a professional musician. I wouldn't even describe myself as semi-pro; I'm more like 'hobby-pro'; and it's more a case of me forcing my CDs onto people than people genuinely wanting them! I don't want to lose money on making CDs, but equally I don't *need* to make any off them either.

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:35 AM

I'm with you on the packaging issue Captain (I'd tax it!) but see my point about damp - which is why I've carried on making mine with wrapping. Also, some shops will not stock unwrapped CDs because of the risk of theft. Tom

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:27 AM

Villan,No one has to buy anything.
market forces dictate,so if your not happy with a cd thats not shrink wrapped[have you thought about the environment,and all this unnecessary packaging]you dont have to buy.
some of my cds are shrink, wrapped some are not,it would not affect my buying of a cd at all,what makes me want to buy, is the music.
Personally I get pissed off with buying a product with unnecessary wrapping,carrots wrapped in plastic [for god sake,all it does is rot the carrot quicker].
will the cds deterioate quicker if they are wrapped in plastic,so why is it done?

Subject: RE: Discount CDs at gigs
From: matt milton
Date: 15 Jan 09 - 07:15 AM

Recently I bought a Lacie portable firewire LightScribe CD burner. It means I can burn a CD and inscribe words and pictures onto the body of the CD while on the move. In theory I could be making CDs on the train.

It occurred to me that I'm not far off being able to record a gig on my laptop as I'm playing it and then burn CD copies of the recording afterwards while having a few pints, and selling them on the spot. I could even give dedications to audience members during the gig, so that their CD would be "personalized". Or play a request!

Then I thought maybe you could take a leaf out of the visual artist's book. A painting is expensive because it's a one-off. So you could record your gig, and make one CD then and there – one CD only – and charge £20 for it. Or auction it then and there. Artwork and dedication would be entirely personal and unique. Obviously, you'd need to be a bit of a name, with a fairly loyal following for this to work...