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Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:34 PM Prissy funger pickers against THE Bogie! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM wodja think....Prissy Finger Pickers Against the Bomb! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:32 AM Its first I heard of it but I do recall seeing atiny little gadget about. Its a good recording aint it? Its fine by me,I like it that you can hear fiddle and voices joining in. Thanks mate |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Nick Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:29 PM Tim Agree with Al I think you've grown so much as a singer, guitarist and performer since I first heard you. I particularly liked Somebody's Missing Tonight and Rhyme and Reason of the Myspace ones and I now know what the song below's title is though I've heard it a number of times. Not sure if I ever sent you a link to this - Belt Buckle Live - if you don't like it I'll delete it but your visit coincided with me testing out my Zoom recorder so you were captured on it back in March of last year. All the best and keep plucking them strings |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM how much would it be worth in gold. they could have my yamaha and several others for its weight in gold. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:40 PM LOL Another sleepless night sat in me van watchin the trains go by. My Takamini has been worth its weight in gold. Thank you both for the comments BTW I really do apreciate them. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Bruce MacNeill Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:32 PM Tim, I was from New England and we didn't have an accent either, at least not noticably, until I moved away. Which got me to thinking that maybe my picking is prissy so I don't think your prissy fingerpicking is prissy. Another sleepless night coming worrying about this thread. Your writing isn't prissy. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM Actualy I have heard a lot more than those I mentioned,and if you can tear yourself away from the "names" there are a lot of awe inspiring musicians just living quietly in the houses of the towns where you live. Among them many excellent guitar players. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM Cheers guys. I have cold at the moment so I sound even odder than usual. I dont listen to a lot of popular music now and havent since about 1989 Awful confession aint it? So any influences are from me youth or people I hear live in pubs clubs and singarounds. Also Grimsby ,where I live,is the only place in the uk that has no accent. lol The names are left out to protect me dangly bits. Well wld as I typed earlier I have heard your performance and Dougs and Nicks and my tutor was or is Dick Appleton. I just keep trying to write a song I like. So 1 says prissy and 1 not. LOL |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM Wow - its a while since I heard your work Tim - you've come on one hell of a lot. The guitar playing is particularly impressive. there are all kinds of influences in there - Rambling Jack Elliot, Broonzy, Reverend Gary Davis - I don't know who you've been listening to - but somebody damn good! And I bore people wityh my opinions but to me - songwriting like ours - because it is more deeply rooted in the way people speak nowadays and the way they sing - has a superior claim to be legtimate tradition of England. Rather than some selfconsciously archaic form. I'm sure youre aware of the problems with recording yourself. Always remember the guitar only has a support role, the star of the show is the voice and the song is the bit Shakespeare would have written. When you have something to say - be more specific - name names, give dates, and punch the people you don't like on the nose. they won't know its them you're talking about - they never do! Well done and keep up that prissy fingerpicking! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Bruce MacNeill Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:03 PM I have the upmost admiration for anyone who writes their own songs. I hadn't listened to any of yours' before but from what I just heard, you're good at it. Strangely though, you don't sound British. The songs also seem to have an American flavor, if you'll pardon the thought. I wondered if you intentionally imitated that genre or if it is just coincidence. Sorry but I'm across the pond and generally have trouble understanding the various dialects of English I find on U.K. sites. The songs, and guitar, are great. Not prissy in my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:28 PM I have never found a hobby or pastime so obsorbing as trying to play my guitar. I have usualy gotten to the end of my interest in things after a couple of years and moved on to new stuff. I am crap at normaly structured learning,my long suffering guitar tutor would attest to that. So how it goes now is that I write a song incorporating something new (to me) in the way of playing. Then by the time I have learned me new song I have also had several hours practice on the guitar. It just works better for me. Though I doubt it will ever create as good player out of me,as formal training may..at least I am enjoying it. We each attain what we can dont we. I have heard WLD and Dougie and Nick play,all completely different sounds and materiel all very good. I know that most of the people I meet anywere who play are likely to have better technique or better knowledge of music or more tallent or years more experience. But the majority of them are good enough to give a few tips and hints. I have just posted a couple of new songs on myspace and if anyof you have the time or inclination I would apreciate your comments. Cheers. http://www.myspace.com/timleaning |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:05 AM I suspect for those of us not blessed with your mercurial talent Ian, fingerpicking is the start of a lifetime's apprenticeship. And furthermore even a cursory glance round at the achievements all around us on the folkscene, reveals peaks most of can never even aspire to. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Ian Fyvie Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:06 PM Horses for courses Weelittledrummer! I picked up finger picking as I went along. New song I want to do? - so work out a pick to suite the song. I put a bit of effort in when I was learning - homework for the evening class where I did the classical basic pick for a couple of terms. But I don't ever remember studying complex texts on picking, I never copied from heros or anything like that - and recommend evolution to develop a good range of styles, based on having the style follow what you want to do - not the other way round. But as a former guitar teacher, I know that some students have to learn the structured way. Again: horses... Ian Fyvie |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:25 PM ' I'm not against anyone doing a University degree in understanding finger pick if they want to' big of you - if only it were that easy. University courses only last three years, and they're mainly for people who are dodging the column when it comes to work. To finger pick well - you need focus and application and longer than three years. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Ian Fyvie Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:22 PM I thought the reason we finger pick when we perform at the folk club was to enhance our songs. Sorry, M.ted never got round to underastanding the picks I do - just do them, and they seem to go down well. But I'm not against anyone doing a University degree in understanding finger pick if they want to. A bit sad I would have thought but each to her/his own... Ian Fyvie |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Nick Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:34 PM Faye I have memories of John Renbourn, fag dangling from side of mouth, playing jazzy stuff on an electric guitar in Pentangle days on things like 'So Clear', though most times I have seen him it has just been an acoustic. Not prissy though. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:53 AM Another tip - if you're going to work unamplified - use as many open strings as you can. Unless your actually bashing the strings a blocked chord has less volume. this si why open tunings are so popular with folk players - the more open strings - the more resonance. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:28 AM In teresting Tim. i went through the same sort of thing early in my career as a performer. the way I got round it was to get Rob Armstrong to build me a guitar with a huge body - bigger than a J200 - but with very light varnish - it had huge projection. With more experience, and more confidence I found I could pretty much manage with any guitar bigger than say a concert size (the yamaha cpx range). I still prefer to sing with a PA and if possible with my guitar plugged in. If you are talking about session playing I recommend Alastair Russel's dvd on celtic guitar. Its very straight - no bullshit, and you need a need a plectrum! I use a thumbpick if I'm going to sing at a session usually - and the technique reminds me somewhat of what Private Investigator Philip Marlowe said about controlling an idiot at gunpoint - keep it simple, and don't change your mind! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:31 AM I play both with picks and with bare fingers and have no trouble swapping between the two. I use a large plastic thumb pick and three medium plastic fingerpicks. While I admit I mainly use picks for increased volume, some tunes are just better played with picks than without, even if I my guitar is plugged in to a PA. I like the crisp feel and sound that they give. For the banjo, I prefer bare fingers but I am forced to use picks for volume in anywhere bigger than my living room. DC |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Richard Bridge Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM If your guitar is too quiet, you either 1. sing quieter 2. get a louder guitar; or 3. play your present guitar louder. If you need fingerpicks to go louder and they are a problem, remember the old saying? "How do I get to the Albert Hall"? Practise! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:25 PM I find the finger and thumb picks both uncomfortable and,for me,inaccurate. Luckily I dont have to play to an audience and me gob and me gutiar are about as loud as each other. I mean I dont get gigs so am usualy just taking a turn around the room. Sad to say it seems almost obligatory for some sort of sound enhancment to be used in larger venues. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Faye Roche Date: 02 Feb 09 - 12:06 PM "With no offense intended to Will, here's how Travis picking is really done, from the man who learned it at his father's kneeThom Bresh--I'll See You in My Dreams" Thanks to all of you who posted YouTube links- there is some really good stuff on there. My favourite is the one above, though it did make me feel like selling my guitar... For me "prissy" refers to the way that some people play arpeggios up and down the strings in a repeated rhythm with no variation or dynamics, usually to accompany a sweet rendition of a ballad in a high voice. One of my favourite guitarists is John Renbourn, who has never, as far as I've heard, played anything other than fingerstyle. (OK- correct me if I'm wrong, but this style is mainly what he is known for isn't it?) He brings our subtleties in the instrument that you couldn't achieve with a pick. However, if there's one guitar style that I absolutely hate above all others, its the frantic full-on strumming that some singer-songwriters give their instruments. Perhaps they think that by thrashing their guitars to within an inch of their lives they will add excitement to the bland, self-indulgent rubbish that they write... I hate this style even more when it's applied to Irish music, and once had to leave the room during a session at a folk festival when a 12-string player (twice the volume as well!) went berserk, squeezing in as many beats as possible, completely obliterating the lead instruments (who were all excellent players, which made it doubly frustrating) and murdering everything that the others were playing. On a practical level, the one problem I have with fingerstyle playing is that of getting enough volume, especially in a big room. I can't adapt to finger and thumb picks. I've sometimes thought of getting one of those little battery-powered amps to help out. What's the opinion on using these in an otherwise acoustic environment? I have quite good voice projection as I went to singing lessons when I was younger, but people have sometimes said that they can't hear my guitar very well at the back of the room. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM Well it was at least good natured. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Art Thieme Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:25 PM There sure is prissy galore in this good thread. ;-) Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: dick greenhaus Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM Whatever turns you off |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:50 PM Whatever the OP's choice of words, I think he touched off a very interesting thread. The only boring parts have been the arguments about whether he should have used the word "prissy"; now, the jokes about the word "prissy," those I enjoyed... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM so just the basques and wigs to worry about eh? LOL YOu an Elvis fan? Seem to remember there was a ban on filming him from the waist dawn. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:19 PM I would expand upon Pip Radish's point, by saying that Ian Fyvie's inability to describe the playing style that he doesn't like leaves one thinking that he doesn't understand the process very well. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 28 Jan 09 - 05:50 PM Never fear, Tim, I always shoot the YouTube videos from the waist up - you'll never know whether I'm actually wearing the tights and miniskirt or not. Or whether I've got the lace-up thigh boots on. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 28 Jan 09 - 04:06 PM "Al - you've made me see the light - from now on, it's fishnet tights and a miniskirt for me. Do you think I should keep the beard, though? Wouldn't want the blood to stop coursing through your veins... " Ok so I will take your you tube orf me favourites list. I just cant take the risk. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:15 AM Al - you've made me see the light - from now on, it's fishnet tights and a miniskirt for me. Do you think I should keep the beard, though? Wouldn't want the blood to stop coursing through your veins... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Phil Edwards Date: 28 Jan 09 - 02:54 AM The wording may be a bit loaded but the point remains - however polite and inoffensive some think we should all be. My point wasn't not so much about being polite & inoffensive for its own sake, as about the best way to get a useful discussion going. "Is rubbish playing crap?" isn't a question at all - at least, it's not a question for anyone who might disagree with you. Characterising the style of fingerpicking you want to talk about in these judgmental terms ("prissy", "nice but boring", "pretty but twee") tells us there's something you don't like, but it doesn't tell us much about what that is. There's been a huge amount of confusion on the thread about what 'prissy fingerpicking' actually is - I'm still not entirely sure. Plus it risks starting a fight with anyone who thinks 'prissy' fingerpicking is perfectly OK and doesn't like hearing it slated. It's all about what you're trying to do. If you're trying to get people to share their opinions without getting their backs up, then "polite and inoffensive" might be the way to go. If you're trying to get people riled, don't change a thing. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 27 Jan 09 - 09:36 PM Prissy Fingerpicking a turnoff.......? no godamnit! when she's wearing fishnet stockings and a mini skirt, that woman sets the red blood coursing through the intemperate regions as well as any woman. In fact fact in Ohio, Prissy Figerpicking is a perverted sexual practice that is specifically named in several statutes. It was rumoured there was someone they lynched for doing it - but I think they were gonna lynch him anyway. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:57 PM Thanks Ian...Best Wishes...bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Ian Fyvie Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:39 PM Most contributors seem to have an idea of what i meant by prissy, re fingerpicking. To correct a few misconceptions.... *prissy refers to a type/style of fingerpicking. *I am NOT saying finger picking in itself is prissy. *I was lucky enough to hear Will Fly play live - Will's picking is a good example of playing that is dynamic ie. not prissy. Many blues players are pretty dynamic - but many copyists are not. They seem to have turned blues into something quite sterile - something which happens often when the twee middle classes get hold of working class art? *Guess what - those who seem to think I'm knocking fingerpicking coz I can't do it - I do several fingerpicking styles. How many of the nice-but-boring players do just the one pick: 'Prissy!' Like Will and some other contributors I make the picking part of the song, not the looptape upon which many plonk the lyrics. Lastly, the point of this thread was to ask if this bland pretty-but-twee stuff if putting off youngsters who turn up at folk nights who might like more energetic guitar styles. The wording may be a bit loaded but the point remains - however polite and inoffensive some think we should all be. Ian Fyvie |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:34 PM The ANTI-PRISS! Ry Cooder, with Flaco & other amazing guys... "Bop Til You Drop" is one of my all time faves... http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=l_kbGttueAY SHO ta get ya FONKIFIED! bob p.s. "Down in Hollywood" Do yas think that could be interpreted in a multiplicity of ways? Like, "her sister wouldn't do me, but Holly Would"... And, DOWN, uh, no, can't go there. This is Mudcat...BR :0) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM That's definitely Flaco, who first came to my attention when he toured with an especially excellent Ry Cooder Band. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: bankley Date: 27 Jan 09 - 07:36 PM yeah, Bob, I liked what he did with Buck Owens.... me being a big 'early' Buck fan... and Billy Bob Thorton sured kicked his mean ass in Slingblade, and got an Oscar doing it... so, good for the West Va. boys... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:52 PM M. Ted: I think that's Flaco Jimenez on the squeezebox...All the boys playing just the right notes...Gotta Love it...bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:46 PM Well, Bob, that's about all anyone could ever want. I was happy when the button accordion came in. The fiddle took it up a notch, and that guitar solo made me think I'd died and gone to heaven. Only one thing-- I wish't I was in the band-- |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:32 PM More Dwight... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkx68VTJ33o&feature=related BR |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 27 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM I never figured that Dwight Yoakum was ever pigeon-holed--the guy used to play in hardcore punk clubs, for God's sake! He's had a 30 odd hits on the country charts, where the twang helps--I don't figure that he'd be top 40 material, even without it-- |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM For all you 'Catters who haven't heard of Will Ray... http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=187872438 Shenandoah's for you Banks... bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 27 Jan 09 - 10:13 AM Banks: Guys like Dwight, or let's use Dwight himself, should have been bigger stars. The guys got a great delivery, but that country twang keeps him pigeonholed. And, he has access to the best writers. Ya gotta wonder. Will the fingerpicker ever sleep with the Synth player? Too dangerous financially to REALLY get creative...Gotta feed the masses.... bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: bankley Date: 27 Jan 09 - 08:16 AM I figured that would get you Bob..... and Yoakum.... ain't he related to L'il Abner ? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM Folk? It's all just music to yer boi over here... http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewProfile&friendID=222588098 bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: bankley Date: 26 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM nah... he's using a flat pick and it ain't folk... pretty box tho.. ps... just kidding about the man down the street and the only thing Django could write was his name |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 26 Jan 09 - 06:47 PM And Tim: NO Bodrhan! THAT you are familiar with.... DOUMBEK!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JxtLU34X3s bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 26 Jan 09 - 06:30 PM Just for fun... http://www.youtube.com/user/stevevaihimself?blend=1 Am I on topic? bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 26 Jan 09 - 06:06 PM Like Lady Gay Spanker in Dion Boucicault's "London Assurance"... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Rapparee Date: 26 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM Prissy Fingerpicking sounds like a young woman in some 18th Century comedy of manners. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 26 Jan 09 - 05:27 PM OK OK Ok Grumble moan I will do this for a weeks worth of practice. I refuse to listen to drummers unless its a bodrhan! Now wheres that guitar? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 26 Jan 09 - 05:22 PM Once you can spell a "C" Chord, CEGC, and you know your fingerboard, you are then able to find "C" in a number of places. Do that with other chords. Then you can link them together and you're able to play chord progressions all over the guitar... Rhythms? Got a problem with that? Put the guitar down for a bit and listen to DRUMMERS. Hold your pick(or just your hand,) and tap along to what they're doing. It's like going to the gym, no pain no gain. You have to conquer the psychological barrier and begin to study the FOUNDATIONS of music... bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 26 Jan 09 - 04:49 PM Was gonna PM you Guest Bob. Then realized the flaw in me plan. I am getting seriously close to having to listen to some of the advice I keep askin me elders and betters for I think. This weirdness about knowing what the bloody notes are keeps cropping up. LOL |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 26 Jan 09 - 04:46 PM :~( Awwwww do I have to? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 26 Jan 09 - 04:40 PM Tim: KNOW THY BOARD! That must be written on some cave in Guitar Heaven. Do you know the names of EVERY NOTE on your fingerboard? Can you see them? Can you spell chords? Play this game for 3 days. You are not allowed to play ANYTHING you already know for 3 days. But you MUST play the guitar. Search new chords, scales & rhythms. See what develops. No turning back to the past, everything new...Try it... bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 26 Jan 09 - 04:21 PM Bob Ryszkiewicz Thank you for that mate. The road leads up to the next plateau,then it levels out for a while or I take ramble down a side street. I get the feeling that I am following the steps of many and they are always just around the next bend. Maybe a few of you taking the time to turn and wave back at us less able players is what keeps us going on the journey . Destination ? Not being able to play the guitar. The proper way. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:38 PM Banks: The "finger people" are everywhere, a pathetic bunch...But whatchagonnado? I just keep my thoughts on the good stuff...bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: bankley Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:09 PM Hey Bob, there's a man down the street who speaks to me with his hands every chance he gets.... ....well, with at least his middle finger.. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Jayto Date: 26 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM Man I want a Tabla bad!!! I have for a long time. If someone calls me a prissy Tabla player in Ky or Tn I wont get mad. I will just be impressed they knew what it was lol. Hurdy Gurdy's are cool as well. Like I said I guess I understand guitar playing better so I tend to judge guitarists harder. I play alot of different instruments but guitar is my main one and I know it better than any other. I want a sitar as well. The Tabla and Sitar are 2 instruments I have never had or fooled with but I have loved them for years now. I hope I am a prissy sitar/tabla player someday. I hope you all hear me and say "damn how pretentious!!" lol cya JT |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:38 PM Don: Had hurdy-gurdy last night for supper... Tonight, I think I'll go with Tabla... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjjSZw4gr98&feature=PlayList&p=47563A953261122A&index=1 I watch Zakir a lot...TA-KI-TA, TA KA DI MI TA KI TA...Konikol...The only way to fly, try running some guitar lines with THAT...SERIOUS Fun! bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: The Sandman Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:35 PM here is some fingerpicking on the concertina. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K4-2laAOkI&feature=channel_page |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Don Firth Date: 26 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM Hurdy-gurdy, anybody? Sorry. I'll leave now. . . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Jayto Date: 26 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM Because Doug guitarists are all that matter lol jk. I guess by me being a guitarist they are all I really pay real attention to lol. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: bankley Date: 26 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM it sure does.... why pick on the guitar ? good one |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 26 Jan 09 - 02:36 AM I take your point Jayto, but why pick on guitar pickers for this? The same applies to musicians of every style and every insrument. DC |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:09 PM For Tim Leaning...I used to take paper and pencil with me to make drawings of the chords and moves the great players were doing. I could just catch a bit of this and that, maybe a chord or two. Those were the days WAAAY before what is available today as music instruction. The I saw Paul Geremia at our College, sat down, and when he began to play I wrote: "Forget it" on the paper. that was 1966...Hardly what you would call, "Prissy". Ditto "Spider John" Koerner. Dave Van Ronk, Bruce Cockburn, and hundreds of others... Became friends with Paul and met Blues Great John Hammond Jr. here in Montreal and walked with him a bit during a break in one of his shows. I was trying to learn how to play lead lines and he told me, "just keep trying to play it, mistakes will come then you'll get it." Sounded weird just trying to follow somebody's hand motions, but he was right. Also had the honor of playing with Jazz Great, George Benson, who told me to be able to sing what I can play, and play what I can sing...VITAL...Try it... You'll find a treasure trove on YouTube, and you might want to search "Homespun Tapes" in New York for more great stuff... All the best on your "Guitar Journey" bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Jayto Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:13 PM I have heard a bunch of musicians play but not feel. They don't let go onstage and every lick hit and note sung has been done by them a million times. Think back to the first time you dialed the number to your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband. Think about how magical those numbers felt and how excited you were to hit them. Then think about how they feel or felt 15 yrs later. You probably remebr the sequence but not dialing it. Regardless how you feel about the person dialing the number becomes a memorized task that lost its magic somewhere along the lines. The notes of a song do the same thing whether we as musicians realize it or not. The crowd notices but we fail to see it. Just a thought. Compare the analogy however you see fit. Cya JT and hey to my brothers Basnkley and Peace check the pics of my new baby on my myspace. She is a doll she gets it from my girlfriend lol. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:57 PM Lots of wit and humor here and I have enjoyed reading through and the diversions to U tube to hear some lovely playing. I still don't get what prissy finger picking is exactly or any of the other styles. I guess to a relative beginner like me,you are all just Guitar playing gurus who i have been lucky enough to "meet"(?) online. I have heard a few of you in real life and enjoyed your performance very much. I will keep twiddlin' away on me guitar,and maybe one day someone will accuse me of having a "style" That is the day I will think I maybe deserve to have an opinion in such erudite and skilled company. Thank for the vids MR Fly,and the original songs Mr Drummer and the lovely reminiscences on musical times past Dougie. Mudcat at its best is reading through a thread like this one and coming away wiht new thoughts and strange finger picking ideas. Cheers all. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:31 PM 'I'm still amazed at how much can be expressed through the hands (as opposed to some other body parts) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Printer Friendly - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: weelittledrummer - PM Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:14 PM 'I'm still amazed at how much can be expressed through the hands' Like......... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Printer Friendly - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: bankley - PM Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:38 PM playing a musical instrument for starts..... use your imagination... ' I was thinking more in terms of what I could express with my hands. On telly in the 1950's there was an artist from Hungary or somewhere who used to wiggle his hands about to music, and say it represented a scene from under the sea. i couldn't express much with my hands - not just my hands. i couldn't even stop someone in the street and ask the way to the public toilet. In fact when we were at school and you used to have to put your hand up to get the teacher's attention - I was generally ignored. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:27 PM I think that the "prissy" business is/was just a pointed remark about the playing style of somebody who the original poster just didn't like very much. I think that's probably true. But what did it actually mean other than "I didn't like that"? We can speculate that it means various things - over pretty, fussy, lacking in emotion and mechanical have all turned up in the thread. But the word "prissy" doesn't really help pin down what was meant. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Phil Edwards Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:42 PM Such are the vagaries of language. Yes. Word to the wise: if you can paraphrase your question as "why is X rubbish?", "has Y always been rubbish?" or "why do people like Z (even though it's rubbish)?", you might be better off putting that question to someone who you know agrees with you. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,M.Ted Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:56 PM I think that the "prissy" business is/was just a pointed remark about the playing style of somebody who the original poster just didn't like very much. The poster managed to turn it into an insult to about three quarters of the guitar and banjo pickers in both the UK and the US, and that was generalized into a slam that put all rest of the players in the world on the defensive. This because the orginal poster wasn't very clear about what he didn't like. Such are the vagaries of language. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Don Firth Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:58 PM Lack of feeling" is a whole body-mind-emotion thing. I can't imaging someone singing with feeling and playing without it, or vice versa (?). If you understand a song and sing it with feeling, I don't see how your accompaniment can help but follow. Now maybe this sounds like I'm contradicting what I just said, but I can imagine someone playing a complex accompaniment they're proud of with a lot verve and enthusiasm while giving the song itself short shrift. There are a number of folk singers around who put all their attention on their guitar accompaniments and seem to regard the song was merely something they have to do to justify their guitar work. In short, the song accompanies the guitar rather than the other way around. I still don't get "prissy." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:29 PM What really turns me off with fingerpicking is lack of feeling. I hear far to many focus on technique and strip it of all emotion. You remove the emotion from any music and it is a major turnoff to me. …… I like to think that I put feeling and emotion into my songs but I am least likely to do that when I'm playing "strum, strum, strum … strum, strum, strum". Lack of feeling and emotion is a turnoff in any style, not just fingerpicking. When I'm playing a song with a good bit of picking, I'm usually having fun – and if I'm enjoying myself then it's likely that the audience is too. DC |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 24 Jan 09 - 02:47 PM Another "Prissy Fingerpicker"....Jennifer Batten... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZBuzbe9xCo&NR=1 BR |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM Muah HA HA HA HA Hee HEE HEE.....Hot DAMN this thread is FUUUUUUNNNY!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yGB6d_3n58&feature=related bob |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: bankley Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:38 PM playing a musical instrument for starts..... use your imagination... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:14 PM 'I'm still amazed at how much can be expressed through the hands' Like......... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,bankley Date: 24 Jan 09 - 12:01 PM it all depends on who the fingers are attached to.... I'm still amazed at how much can be expressed through the hands (as opposed to some other body parts) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Lowden Jameswright Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM Agree Jayto comments 100% - 35 years ago on a teacher training course we were told " be creative; take risks; don't be afraid of looking foolish or wrong - just go for it.. and learn from the mistakes" - advice I took forward and applied to playing guitar/singing songs. Not sure what "prissy fingerpicking" is but if anyone told me I had a prissy style I'd hit 'em with a Bar Chord |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: theleveller Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:24 PM Jayto, agree with you 100% on that. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Leadfingers Date: 23 Jan 09 - 12:14 PM 100 |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Jayto Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:54 AM What really turns me off with fingerpicking is lack of feeling. I hear far to many focus on technique and strip it of all emotion. You remove the emotion from any music and it is a major turnoff to me. I could care less about hearing a perfectly executed piece of insanely difficult fingerpicking if it lacks feeling. I don't care how over the top tough it is to perform or how perfect it is played. Mistakes here and there are just part of the game. I hear people all the time that you can tell have practiced a piece of music night and day for months on end. They hit it perfect but have no emotion in it at all. To me that is not music. Music to me is self expression not perfection. I never feel perfect so guess what it won't always sound perfect lol. That is not a cop out to justify not practicing or playing sloppy though. I hear things as I play a piece that I don't hear other times and the way I feel at the time has alot to do with it. When I hear a variation I will go for it. I may not always get it though. I may flub up trying to play it but I still go for it. The reason is that is an emotion I that needs to come out in the song at that time. I never pause to think if I will be able to pull it off I just let my muse guide me. I wish more musicians did this. Safety should not be in a performing musicians vocabulary in my opinion lol. Here's a quote "To live a creative life one must first lose their fear of being wrong." I can't remember who said it but I agree 100%. Music is self expression and if you are not expressing anything other than I have practiced non-stop for a year then I really don't care about hearing it. I know this may ruffle some feathers (I have been on the cat for a while now lol) but some of you know I am good at that lol. cya JT |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:21 AM Some musicians are really good, some are OK, and some are...well, they just are. Part of what differentiates is technical ability, part of it is making choices, and some of it is talent. I used to play in the stage band for an ethnic dance company, and when I signed on, the director told me,"We have some pieces for the "A" dancers and some pieces for the "B" dancers. Everyone knows which is which but the "B" dancers." Don't know why that occurs to me just now, but it does... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:57 AM Al - with you all the way here. That's why acoustic sessions - in the widest sense of the words - can be such great fun. Everyone gets to play a lot if they want to and are able - newbies get to learn stuff by playing along - the casual johnnies at the bar can talk, laugh, sing, barrack - the crack can be excellent - good humour prevails - and you can hear some bloody good music from people giving it their heart! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:35 AM Its the nature of the folkscene(in fact a treasured part) that there are all sorts of herberts turning up with all sorts of strange motives for being there. I rather like that bit - guessing what they're up to. Folkmusic's all right, but it should never get in the way of a good evening in the pub, with everybody having a good sing. At my birthday party - the most succesful acts of the evening (for the non folkies) were the fiddle player who forgot how the song went he was about to play and which he had just given a lengthy introduction to, and the guitarist who thought his custom made guitar was out of tune, but had actually forgotten how to play A minor chord. I don't suppose many people will agree. But its surely better to be good humoured, than sitting there fuming at humanity because they haven't got the same predjudices about folkmusic that you have. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: matt milton Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:32 AM I heard some Simon & Garfunkel songs on the radio last night for the first time in years and was suprised that I quite enjoyed them – I'd always thought of them as being a little on the prissy side. I suppose that's about as close as I can imagine to what Ian was thinking of. Paul Simon is a solid, laidback fingerpicker who never breaks a sweat. Much better is someone like Ed Trickell – I only thought of him because I'm listening to his 1960s album "the telling takes me home" (wonderful stuff) a lot right now. Simple, gentle fingerpicking, very accomplished but nothing fancy. Entirely appropriate, very intimate sounding. That kind of laidback fingerpicking can sound quite sensual when its close-mic'd. Actually, guitars often sound prissiest to me when they're being played in their most technically accomplished and flashy way. A lot of neo-classical guitar playing sounds prissy to me; quite a bit of mainstream jazz guitar; a lot of the new flamenco players too. (obviously I'm not thinking of people like Ramon Montoya or Django Reinhardt here) And while I love Baden Powell on Os Afro Sambas, pretty much everything else he's recorded sounds like he's playing with a furrowed brow and a very stiff neck – all too staid. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM I think there's a wider question underlying this thread - which itself, I believe, was started as an offshoot of the still-running "Why folk clubs are dying" discussion. It's a question of performance and the motives behind it. I started playing guitar and performing in folk clubs nearly 45 years ago and, after 40+ years of playing for cash in jazz/funk/blues/rock'n roll bands - I've joined an old friend in his ceilidh band. I've also re-entered the folk world, just for fun, in the last two years. The bands that I played in played for cash and for the enjoyment of the music. Our aims, in the main, were to see that the people footing our bill got their money's-worth, that as many of the audience as possible enjoyed what we played and that - at the end of the session, they went home having had a good time. And if we'd had a good time as well, that was a bonus. And a decent fee was an extra bonus! Now I'm back, here and there, in the world of folk clubs, singarounds and acoustic sessions, has my attitude changed? Not one whit. If you stand up in public and perform, whether there's cash involved or not, you have to ask yourself some very honest questions. Why do you perform? 1. Do you want all eyes on you - the roar of the greasepaint, the smell of the crowd? 2. Do you want to show an audience something musically that it hasn't heard before? 3. Do you want to bring a message of some sort to the audience? 4. Do you want to tell a story? 5. Do you want to be a musical competitor? 6. Do you want to make money? 7. Do you want to keep the sacred flame of the tradition burning? 8. Do you want to have fun? 9. Do you want to have a cathartic experience? 10. Do you want to compensate for shortcomings in your life? 11. Do you want to entertain the audience? 12. Do you want to educate the audience? etc.... Add your own questions to the list. Performing is a mixture of any of these elements - the particular mix being different for any individual. BUT - if you answer "No" to very many of these questions, then ask yourself this: What am I doing here in front of these people?. There has to be a motive somewhere - and it might not always be the one you think it is. In the jazz world (for example), there has always been a long history of "cutting" - of musicians trying to outdo each other on stage. It happened in New Orleans, at the very beginnings of jazz, with bands playing in competition with each other. Barrelhouse, stride and boogie-woogie pianists would have cutting contests at rent parties or in clubs, seeing who could outplay the other. Just read Alan Lomax's "Mister Jelly Lord" or Rudi Blesh's "They All Played Ragtime" to get an idea of it. Soloist tried to top out another soloist in band playing - which can be exhilarating. Most musicians, whether consciously or unconsciously, are competitive. You may not think you are - you may think this is nonsense - but there has to be a competitive element in music, or you will never progress. "Competition", by the way, means competing with yourself. We improve as musicians by competing with previous versions of outself. We play a piece, or sing a song and - if we've any sense of growth, we try and improve on it. We compete with ourselves subconsciously - if we don't, then we never improve, we lose the vital spark and we lose the audience. And we do have an audience don't we? If you don't want an audience, then stay at home and sing to the mirror. There is a difference between being a very good performer and being a gross egotist - though it can be a very thin line. There's a very true saying: "You may think you're good, but there's always somebody better..." But it's much healthier, IMHO, to look at yourself seriously and ask yourself why you perform the way you do, how can you do it to the best of your ability, and why you're there in the first place - and what you're bringing to the party. Apologies for the long rant - but I believe passionately that we should try to make good music and have a healthy and honest understanding of why we do it. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Indrani Ananda Date: 22 Jan 09 - 11:22 PM I wish I could go to a folk club without the claws and hammers coming out! Observe, listen, and you may perceive that in the main there are 3 categories of performer on trial: 1/ Flashy 'slick-dick' playing syncopated with the utmost robotic accuracy, mostly bluesy, and usually beloved of guest performers. This type frequently sings in a laid-back toneless way and revels in the way he is wowing the audience with unmelodic but acoustically embellished boring words. 2/ Interesting playing, amazing voice but tuneless songs with banal words. A waste of a good voice. 3/Melodious songs, average playing, not much of a voice, therefore not a lot of appreciation. Which of these has the most to offer? If prissy playing is the yardstick, I'd say no.1. Because this is the "full-of-himself, look-at-me" type of player who creates the wrong mood for traditionsl folk songs to be enjoyed in a quiet room or bar. Oh, and there is a fourth category - 4/ Competent playing, average voice, original songs with good lyrics. In this category the song itself is dominant, so there is no need for prissy playing. This last category is doomed, it seems, and fails to be recognised without the frenetic claw hammer (silly name!) drive of the bass plucking. Guess which category I am in. Indrani. PS. Mc.Grath of Harlow - Have you started a new thread here? Flavours can indeed be squalid, as sunsets can be avaricious! Have you ever heard the sunrise? I have - I know this - I am synaesthetic. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:14 PM Much as I hate to admit it, WLD, you may be right. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:44 PM well something terrible seems to have happened to him - to do with fingerpicking. Its easy to see how that could affect anyone. Compassion costs nothing. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM You could say "Is squalid fingerpicking a turnoff" or "Is avaricious fingerpicking a turnoff" with equal clarity to the original proposition. Sadly, Ian hasn't come up with anything to show us what he was actually talking about, let alone any examples of his own playing, which would allow us to figure out where he sits in the guitar-picking food chain. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM "...obviously "prissy" anything is bad... Well, that's a simple and straightforward definition. But I can't help feeling it isn't exactly correct. I just don't think prissy is a word that can reasonably be applied to playying the guitar. It's like calling a flavour "squalid", or a sunset "avaricious". |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM No - I don't think it's prissy, etc., at all. (And thanks for the kind words, MT.) I'm just making the point that fingerpicking doesn't have to be all one thing. Even within the same piece, within the framework of a tune, within a picking style, you can get variation and light and shade. What I really enjoy is the unknown quantity that always comes when trying to improvise around a tune - a hangover from jazz days, I suppose. Luckily it works most of the time, though I'm all too conscious of when it doesn't! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM You don't really want us to say it's prissy, and all that, Will. It is very entertaining--I like all the different ways that you run through the tune. You should perform it, and with an amusing and pointed intro, dedicated to Ian;-) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:36 PM I thought I'd try an experiment. I've been playing "Freight Train" - on and off - as a practice piece for 40 years or more. I've never recorded it before and I've never played it in public at a gig. I've always thought it too overdone to give a public airing and, in any case, my spirit bubbles up whenever I see the wonderful Libba Cotten playing it (on YouTube). However, just for a bit of fun, I recorded it this morning. Played it straight for a bit, then just played what came off the top of my head, for better or worse. You can see it at Freight Train. So - you can form your own opinions: prissy, mannered, over-complex, over-simple, no gravity, dynamic, blah, blah. It may be all, some or none of these things - I just did it for FUN. And that's a huge reason ((for me) to play this sort of stuff on the guitar - it's challenging, unpredictable, enjoyable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - but the FUN always has to be there. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:20 PM Another way of saying the same thing that BWL seems to be saying: "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing." Good solid weighty "swinging" playing can be either simple or complicated, just as lousy unfeeling lightweight monotonous playing can be either simple or complicated. Technique isn't everyting. Real musicianship required musicality, which involves a certain depth of personal involvement. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:33 AM There are some quitarists whose styles remind me of someone performing complex acrobatic routines in outer space. It may be impressive, but it'd be a lot more so if there were some gravity involved. If someone's playing doesn't have the musical equivalent of gravity in it, I get bored with it pretty quickly. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: matt milton Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:47 AM Isn't this whole question a bit of an impossible (and arguably slightly pointless) one? I mean, yes, obviously "prissy" anything is bad. I can't think of any kind of situation where any musician would want anything they played to be prissy, unless it was for satirical purposes. But there are plenty of situations where you would want to pick delicately, or sparsely, or softly. A delicate ballad is obviously not going to gain anything from someone pinging the strings hard (a la Bert Jansch) and putting in 10 notes per second. Hell, any kind of fingerpicking would be a nice bonus at the London acoustic singer-songwriter gigs I go to. it's normally just strumming of the most banal and unryhthmic kind. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:35 AM Is 'prissiness' confined to guitar playing - or can it apply to any type of instrumental accompaniment? (Just wondering why guitarists are being singled out here.) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:09 AM I read through these threads, and do most of my posting, at the office ("pretending to work") where I don't have audio (and where I would not want my recreational computer usage to be heard, anyway). So I generally don't play audio and video links when I first encounter them, and don't always remember to look them up on my home computer later the same evening. That's why it's taken me until this morning to check out Will Fly's work... It's great! If that's "prissy," I suppose prissiness is good enough for me. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:08 AM So "prissy" here means "over refined" or something like that? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: mattkeen Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:52 AM Best plectrum player I have heard recently in Britain is Kris Drever |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: mattkeen Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:51 AM Prissy finger picking The Martin Carthy/Nic Jones style of fingerpicking is really driving and can be very dynamic Personally am very irritated by scrubbing plectrum style Flat picking - well thats a different deal all together |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:36 AM WLD - I'd heard you were having an affair with her - and that she wasn't such a fantasy after all. Wasn't that you and her arm-in-arm in the "Daily Mail" photograph? You know, coming out of C# House together? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Piers Plowman Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:29 AM "[...] these stuggles will be reflected in edgy lyrics [...]" Well, I hope they reflect the zeitgeist, weelittledrummer. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:26 AM Prissy Fingerpicking is a sweet gal - a fantasy figure for many of us. Prissy (short for Priscilla) is working on her new website and Myspace page. Stoneyport are handling the tour and the word is that the album review in next month's Froots is five star - takes up two columns. Theres talk of a Radio 2 Young Folk Album of the year and Mercury awards in the offing. Really only what you'd expect from the illegitimate offspring of a prominent folksinging family. Read the current interview in Acoustic, where it can be revealed she has had her struggles coping with Aminor and the C scale is her next major challenge. these stuggles will be reflected in edgy lyrics. Fans will be releived to know she has conquered her drug problem, and the attempted suicide was just so much press intrigue. 'Prissy Fingerpicking - the voice of modern folkmusic.' The Observer |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 22 Jan 09 - 04:10 AM In the end, it all boils down to taste and appropriateness. Whether you choose to play the guitar in a complex or simple manner will depend on what you're trying to achieve and how you want to put it across. If I'm performing a song - say, a music hall number with witty and amusing words - the guitar work takes a definite back seat. Just enough to fill in the harmonic progression of the tune - and no more. If I'm doing something in which a guitar break is appropriate, i.e. where it allows a reflective pause between verses, then slightly more complex guitar work can come out - to subside when the vocal starts up again. And, sometimes, it's nice to think "f*ck it - I'm going to crank it up and have a bit of a thrash!" It's all part of trying to entertain and, if there wasn't some egocentricity within us, we wouldn't be entertainers - would we? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Jayto Date: 22 Jan 09 - 03:44 AM Thank you all it is good to be back. I may have some more absences coming up but hopefully not as long. I have been super swamped lately and haven't been able to even check posts. I will try not to be gone so long next time lol missing the cat lol. cya |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM You're coming dangerously close to those who have complained in other threads about the "bad" singers who are allowed to perform. Instead, I recommend being thankful for the "lesser players" because they make you look better;-) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Ian Fyvie Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:38 PM Can I paint a picture of a folk singer type who fits the bill for prissy? I'm thinking of (several people I've seen actually) an example who sets the finger 'loop tape' going - rate:steady; tone:bland; adds a few melody notes to fit with the singing; sets his head to Tennis - back row Wimbledon Centre Court; and proceeds to issue delightful tones which the organizers then wax lyrical: "marvelous!" (and well said JAYTO). OK for a floor spot but when you get a whole guest spot filed with the syrup, no wonder newcomers, particularly energetic youngsters think: if this is folk... then I'm off! No I'm not deriding anyone who puts a bit of dynamism into their performance - however good, basic or non-existant their finger picking - and WILL FLY, an excellent combination of fine technique and dynamic interpretation by the way. The ones I'm suggesting are the turn off are the ones who you switch on for "NICE track one"; NICE track 2" and so on til we've all dropped off - or gone to the bar. To M.Ted briefly - see you read my second (short) paragraph. Check the first one for the various styles of finger picking I do actually enjoy playing - I wouldn't bore anyone with the basic prissy style, beside which - there's too much competition anyway! Ian Fyvie |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:00 PM So what does "prissy" mean there, Pristine Prissy? Not prim or prudish, I'm sure. Some similar word maybe - pretty? precise? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Pristine Prissy Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:43 PM I really do try to make my picking as prissy as I possibly can in order to secure bookings at any cliquey folk clubs I visit. I find that this has an amazing impression on the organisers who recognise a kindred spirit. I achieve this illusion of superiority by coating all my nails in several layers of Super Glue, which I then hone to perfection. The fistfulls of notes sure do knock 'em dead! I must also make sure that my expression is as smug as my playing. And it also has been known to have helped by giving the impression that I am a teacher! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:06 PM Jumbled up the words in thta last post. Here goes again: "Prissy" means "prim or prudish" according to my dictionary, confirming how I understand the word. I'm trying to work out how a guitar technique can be prim or prudish. ("Make sure not to show your legs", perhaps...) Would I be right in speculating that what is meant is when someone playing a guitar to accompany a song seems to be more concerned with instrumental technique, rather than with helping get the song across? In which case, of course, that can happen with any way of playing the guitar, including what I take to be meant by "dynamic rhythmic style". |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 21 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM Hey, Jayto. I was thinking of you when I thought to mention "thumbpicking." Once in a while, a very simple, unadorned, and repetitive "pattern" or arpeggio can be quite effective: I recently rented a DVD called "Judy Collins Wildflower Festival," which shows highlights of an outdoor concert in San Diego in 2002 featuring Arlo Guthrie, Tom Rush, and Eric Anderson along with the headliner Judy Collins. (Great DVD by the way ~ I highly recommend that you put in on your Netflix queue!) Arlo (who is great one for storytelling) goes off on a long rant about playing a huge festival in Denmark shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall several years earlier. Thousands of Eastern Europeans were in the audience, presumably exhilarated at their newfound freedom to travel (and to attend festivals). Pete Seeger gets the crowd singing along with just about every peace-and-freedom anthem in his repertoire, then calls Arlo to the stage. Arlo wants to continue in the same vein, but he can't think of a single number that Pete hasn't already just sung that would be appropriate to the occasion, and also readily sing-along-able. Then he has a stroke of inspiration and introduces a song made famous by "the King of folk music, Elvis!" and proceeds to do "Can't Help Falling in Love." The Euros all love it, they know the song and everyone sings along. Pete approaches the mike ~ Arlo wonders if he's going to scolded for introducing heretical non-folk material ~ but all is well; Pete knows the song, too, and starts playing along on his banjo. End of story, and then Arlo stats to play and sing. The crowd in San Diego is, of course, well prepared to approve and enjoy, and to sing along themselves just like those Czechs and Poles and Hungarians, etc., of Arlo's story. Arlo plays a straight 6/8 arpeggio on EVERY measure. No walking bass from one chord to the next, no brushing more than one string at a time, no variation at all except for the chord changes. It's probably quite helpful, of course, that there's a chord change on every measure of this particular song, and that it's such a pretty melody. There's enough opportunity for Arlo (and for the crowd) to express emotion by singing; the bare-bones instrumental part is really very effective. I've been working this up myself. I find it difficult NOT to throw in an occasional extra bass note, or to strum an occasional extra eighth-note on the treble strings, or to pluck two or three strings at a time here and there. The absolutely plain approach requires a bit of discipline, and when I'm able to observe that discipline, I'm rewarded with an effective bit of accompaniment. Now, this only works, I suppose, for a player who is able to play in a more complex manner, and who exhibits that ability on other selections. Listening to a whole set played by a novice unable to play anything except the most simple pattern-picking would not be so great an experience. It's possible, too, I think, that the listener somehow perceives a bit of tension in the playing of someone who may be able to thrown in various variations and flourishes, but who quite deliberately plays one particular number with the utmost degree of simplicity. ***************** Critics of fingerpicking would do well to check out Tom Rush's performance on that same video. Tom is a member of the plastic-thumbpick-plus-two-metal-fingerpicks school, and uses them to great effect on three very different numbers: two cute/humorous new compositions, and finally his slide-guitar tour-de-force "Panama Limited," which I've heard countless times over the past 40+ years, but had never seen performed. Nice! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:33 PM Hi Jayto - nice to hear your voice again. If I remember rightly, you've done a fair bit of thumbpicking in your time! I agree with your post. I always try and fit the melody correctly into a fingerpicked tune - which, to a certain extent, stops it being too mechanical. In the middle section - where I often screw around with the chords (!) - I tend to use banjo/bluegrass rolls with thumb and two fingers. This breaks up the alternating bass and stops the overall tune being too monotonous (I think). |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Jayto Date: 21 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM I have to admit (not trying to be mean) but I hear alot of guitarists that only pick a certain pattern over and over on every song. I like it when people adapt a new pattern to express emotion. I agree practice the fingerpicking until it feels natural. Then think for yourself when you do it. Don't just fall back on a learned pattern. I know I am guilty everyone is at some point. You may be out and someone requests something that you are not really sure of or you really dont like but know.Then you kinda fall back on a cliche pattern to get through while mentally shutting down. That is my point I get you stop thinking and feeling and just play. You have to be very comfortable with fingerpicking to be able to adapt but in the end it makes for a better feel. Just my opinion. Oh yeah HI everyone it has been a while but I am back. Jayto |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:40 AM "Prissy" means "prim or prudish" according to my dictionary, confirming how I understand the word. I'm trying to work out how a guitar technique can be prim or prudish. ("Make sure not to show your legs" ,perhaps...) Would I be right in speculating that what is meant is when someone playing a guitar accompaniment seems to be more concerned with being too concerned with what instrumental techniquerather than with helping get the song across? In which case, of course, that can happen with any way of playing the guitar, including what I take to be meant by "dynamic rhythmic style". |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:15 AM Then, there's something called "thumbpicking" by its Kentucky practioners. As far as I can tell, it's just another approach to fingerpicking (literally, of course, thumb-and-finger picking). The only definining characteristic of "thumbpicking" that I can see is that most of those who practice it tend to be very skilled players. If I'm not mistaken, Merle Travis himself was and is a self-proclaimed "thumbpicker." He does not (understandably) call himself a "Travis picker." That term seems to have been originated by folkies trying to more-or-less imitate the playing of Mr. Travis, a musical personality associated more closely with the Nashville commercial-country music industry than with the folk world, and a true virtuoso who has absorbed a wide range of musical influences, including jazz. Is "Travis picking" nothing more or less than a pale imitation of Merle Travis's "thumbpicking"? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Acorn4 Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:24 AM I think a lot of the confusion here is down to terminology:- I thought "Travis" picking was when you used the heel of the right hand to damp the bass strings of a cross pick style -a good example is Doc Watson playing "Deep River Blues" Deep River Blues You can see the heel damp in the second half of the clip. I thought "Clawhammer" was a banjo style rather like frailing but with more used of melody notes and drop thumbing, but even the tutor books seem the vary a bit on this. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,appreciative Date: 21 Jan 09 - 06:33 AM Will Fly - that link to your YT instruction vid, then the link to your website and your "vimeos" cost me a good hour of my life. And what's more, I've bookmarked it all so its going to cost me lots more in future. Fantastic - you certainly are "paying your dues" and then some. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: theleveller Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:44 AM Not sure what's meant by 'prissy'. Just for the hell of it and to try to ease my stiffening fingers, I sometimes go through a frantic session of 'Freight Train' with melody and counter-melody, bass runs, double thumbing - the whole works. But I can't keep it up for long these days (ooooh, matron!!). I don't play this style usually as more melodic styles of fingerpicking tend to suit my songs. If that's 'prissy', tough. The thing is to develop your own styles that suit your music and that you enjoy playing. Why would any one style of playing be a turn-off to youngsters? Would Martin Simpson, John Martyn or Bert Jansch's way of playing be a turn-off? More an inspiration, I'd say - but then, I'm no youngster. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:31 AM I'm going to change my name to Will Prissy - then I can invent a new form of fingerpicking called Prissy Fngerpicking - and write a whole load of books on the Prissy Fingerpicking Technique. Should make a million. (I'll get me thumbpick...) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tangledwood Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:30 AM "These finger patterns are what I think are part of what I would call "fingerpicking": Rough Guide To Fingerpicking " Very nice work on the instruction Will. I'll be spending plenty of time attempting to master the styles. Thank you! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Piers Plowman Date: 21 Jan 09 - 04:16 AM Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: dick greenhaus - PM Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM "Can someone give an example of what is meant by "prissy fingerpicking"? Who does it?" See _Mel Bay's Prissy Fingerpicking Made Easy_ or _The Joy of Prissy Fingerpicking_ or _You Can Fingerpick Prissily!_. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 21 Jan 09 - 03:39 AM With no offense intended to Will, here's how Travis picking is really done, from the man who learned it at his father's knee Thanks M.Ted - very sweet! One of the things that characterises most Travis pickers (and I don't actually consider myself a true one, just one vaguely in the style) is the use of a thumb pick. Something I've never got on with, strangely enough. I play fairly quietly, with fingernails, and I've always found that the thumb overpowers the other fingers. With hybrid picking, (fingerpick & fingers) I can get a better balance between pick and nails. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:52 PM I am disinclined to judge the playing of someone who I have never heard, Ian, but I would suggest that if you find your own "clawhammer" playing boring, well, that's about your playing, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Ian Fyvie Date: 20 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM Re: Guest. "I don't like finger picking because I can't do it? Wrong!" I use 38 and 68 arpeggio styles, a soul music compatable style which I developed - when I discovered folk clubs - so I could play own compositions written whilst playing in a soul band; I use three of four other 44 time variants, similar style to a banjo pick. Tried clawhmer - just fell asleep! Ian Fyvie |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: dick greenhaus Date: 20 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM Can someone give an example of what is meant by "prissy fingerpicking"? Who does it? |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:18 PM With no offense intended to Will, here's how Travis picking is really done, from the man who learned it at his father's kneeThom Bresh--I'll See You in My Dreams |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM Many years ago, I had two distinct approaches in my own playing: plain flat-out strumming, on the one hand (which could be as free/loose/intense as required, or not) and a very deliberate, tame, slow-and-careful brand of fingerpicking. My first guitar was a nylon-string classical model, and so at first I played without any kind of picks. The strumming involved fingernails and the fingerpicking was barefingered. After about 5-6 years, I switched to a steel-string acoustic and began trying to use both a flatpick and fingerpicks (well, finger- and thumb- picks, of course). Another year or two later, I began my brief but very intense streetsinging career, putting in hours and hours at a stretch. My strumming approach, now using a flatpick, was still my freer and more intuitive manner of playing, but my hand would cramp up. On the other hand, my fingerpicking, now with picks, became quite a bit more fluid and intense. I was now able either to pluck a single string, or two, or brush across several strings, with any given stroke of any finger (or thumb). I soon quit trying to flatpick at all, and simply wore my set of three picks on my right hand all day. I still fingerpick exclusively; nowadays I go barefingered a little more often than before, but I still use picks not only for increased volume, but also for a wider range of dynamics. I can perform in a fairly wide variety of styles. On some songs which are normally thought of as "flatpicking" numbers, I use the thumbpick almost exclusively. You may or may not be able to tell which kind of pick I'm using. With my set of picks, I can thump hard and fast when I want, and I can play delicate little arpeggios, too. The only flatpicking style that I really cannot duplicate is high-speed bluegrass lead guitar. But then agsain, that's not something I'm really interested in playing, anyway. Prissy playing is a turnoff, regardless of technique. Playing with any technique can be listenable if the player is well-practied and tasteful. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Backwoodsman Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:18 PM I've seen you fingerpickin' Al! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:54 PM as you all know I'm not biased. However it seems to me that fingerpickers are the spawn of Satan. One day God will smite them unto the tenth generation and they will be cast out of the folk world for ever. When I hear Seth Lakeman and his shakey egg 4-string guitar and fiddle accompaniments, I know we have been redeemed. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Don Firth Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:49 PM "I hope you find useful things there." I'm sure I will. I've played classic for years, so working out accompaniments from dead simple to pretty complex is fairly easy for me. But long ago I heard the "alternating bass" or "clawhammer" style and tried to figure it out without much luck until someone showed me a couple of patterns. I was able to work out Freight Train, Railroad Bill, and a number of others. But I've never been able to just haul off and do it as well and as cleanly as I would like. I'm sure your videos are going to help me smooth over a lot of rough spots. Thanks a million! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Will Fly, out gigging Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM Don Firth P. S. I'm going to have to investigate the rest of the stuff you've put on YouTube! Don - I hope you find useful things there. The main purpose of my YT channel is to either demonstrate fingerstyle technique in fairly straightforward arrangements, or to provide instructional vids. And there's some fun stuff, of course! If you go to my website (there's a link on my YT channel to the URL), you'll also find free sheets containing SN, tab & chords for many of the arrangements, plus free audiofiles of some of the pieces. My YT philosophy is, basically, after benefiting from the generosity of other guitarists in my early days, now I'm in my 60s - it's payback time, i.e. time for me to try and help others! Mind you, it's not all easy - take a peek at "Ragtime Charleston" and "Fingerbuster" (60 seconds of hell)... :-) Will |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: The Sandman Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:01 AM finger picking clawhammer sounds pretty good in open tunings too,using modal chords,for traditional songs. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Piers Plowman Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:54 AM Actually, I think the main difference between Renaissance and Baroque style polyphonic lute and guitar music and folk, blues and country fingerpicking is that the former doesn't commonly use fixed patterns, repeated over and over, and the rhythm often has more pauses. When fingerpickers vary what they play and especially when they play a melody, it comes much closer to the older styles. At a certain point, the distinction ceases to be meaningful. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Piers Plowman Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:45 AM Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Don Firth - PM Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM "Some people seem to be referring to playing with the fingers as contrasted with "thumb-strumming" or playing with a pick. This would, of course, cover everything from "Burl Ives Basic" to Andrés Segovia playing the Bach Chaconne. Others seem to be referring to Travis picking and it's clones and variations ("alternating bass"). Could folks pin down what they're really talking about? I think that might help." This is pretty much what I mean when I talk about finger-picking. It's picking with the fingers, with or without fingerpicks and a thumb pick rather than strumming or using a flat pick. I've never bothered too much about this style, that style, what Merle Travis did, what Joseph Spence did, etc. I just don't care. Other people do, and it's great if someone wants to really study the different styles and techniques. I like to listen to all of these different guitarists, but I prefer to practice other things. The idea is the same whether it's _Freight Train_ or _Flow My Tears_. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Peace Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:57 AM In answer to the thread question. imo, no. However, prissy nosepicking sure is. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM Oh bugger! Why do I keep losing my cookie? DC |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 09 - 07:16 PM In my post at the beginning of this thread, I said that I didn't understand what was meant by the phrase: …… The "Prissy" fingerpicking - nice polite persons' clawhammer etc…….. Having viewed the YouTube link, "Rough Guide to Fingerpicking", provided by Will Fly, I find that clawhammer is pretty much the style that I play, although I have never heard it referred to by that term. Prompted Will's comment on Ian Fyvie's original reference to this style in the "Why folk clubs are dying" thread, I went there and read: ……True, I'm really unimpressed with the clawhammer stuff -…… Let me hazard a guess - Ian, you can't do it, can you? DC |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:08 PM It's not the prissy fingerpicking that troubles me, it's the little knitted caps and the button-down sweaters. And the argyle knee socks! Argh. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: breezy Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM You were right Capn She missed me eyes got me on the nose |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:11 PM I don't quite understand why there is a tendency amongst some to be disdainful or dismissive of certain playing techniques. This comment, "The best folk singers I know of my ageing generation play a good intricate rhythmic style." overlooks the fact that different traditions use different playing styles--and it imposes an across the board one size fits all approach that is not unlike the standardization of pop music. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 09 - 04:00 PM Whatever suits the song, and doesn't get in the way. And it should never sound like the guitarist (or whatever the inmstruiment may be) is finding it difficult, even if it is. And I'd say "the best folk singers I know of my ageing generation" are just as likely as not to be singing unaccompanied. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:59 PM One summer many years ago (I was just getting into folk music and learning to play the guitar at the time), I worked for a picture framer. Many well-known artists took their paintings to this guy to frame for gallery showings and that sort of thing because his frames were always tasteful, appropriate, and unobtrusive. He told me that the way to do a good frame for a particular painting was to study the painting, then pick a shape for the molding that repeated a shape within the painting, then assess the colors and paint the frame a neutral color that was blend of the colors in the painting. "Pick up themes from the painting itself," was the way he put it. He went on to say, "A good frame should set the painting off in space, but it must never draw attention to itself. If people look at a painting and say, 'What a great frame!' then it's not a great frame at all. It has failed in it's purpose." I thought about that a lot, and decided that it's also a good philosophy for working out guitar accompaniments for songs. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Art Thieme Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:53 PM My style was a modified Travis style that tended to being more like Jack Elliott flatpicking thumb-strum but with treble melody, or melody-type runs on the bass strings in between the sung lines. When singing I would fill more with bass-strum rhythmic Carter Family strums that wouldn't get in the way of the message of the song. Sooooo, I guess my picking was more prissy when I was singing than when I was doing the more intricate fingerpicking between verses and lines. It helped me push the story in the song to the fore---which was my main intent! Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:48 PM MR Fly,thanks for that matey was very handy vid. Hi there BWM hope you enjoyed christmas and new years pickling season. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:44 PM Good stuff, Will! Very straightforward and understandable demonstration of what's going on. The early part, such as "thumb-fingers, thumb-fingers" is what I refer to (or have heard referred to) as "Burl Ives Basic." In fact, he did little else. Then you have some arpeggio patterns and what Pete Seeger referred to as the "lullabye lick." Then, in "7 – Basic Fingerpicking," is what I was taught as a basic pattern for learning "alternating bass plus melody," followed by "8 – Basic Clawhammer" and on into—yup—Freight Train. Anybody who wants to learn this should bookmark your demo! I wish I'd had an intro like this when I first started to learn it. Excellent! What I was whining about above is that some people use "fingerpicking" to refer to anything done with the fingers and thumb, while others reserve the term for "clawhammer" and beyond. Get's confoosin'! Don Firth P. S. I'm going to have to investigate the rest of the stuff you've put on YouTube! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Backwoodsman Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:31 PM "General comment: an accompaniment should accompany, not be the main thing. If you err, you should err on the side of simplicity. That way, people might not by impressed by your guitaristic razzle-dazzle, but they'll have a chance to actually hear the song." Absolutely on the button, Don. I got some good advice from a well-known (in the UK) and very talented guitarist, "When you're performing in public, always play within your limits - that way, no one will know what your limits are"! It works. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:58 PM These finger patterns are what I think are part of what I would call "fingerpicking": Rough Guide To Fingerpicking |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:51 PM I get the impression that people are using the term "fingerpicking" in a couple of different ways. Some people seem to be referring to playing with the fingers as contrasted with "thumb-strumming" or playing with a pick. This would, of course, cover everything from "Burl Ives Basic" to Andrés Segovia playing the Bach Chaconne. Others seem to be referring to Travis picking and it's clones and variations ("alternating bass"). Could folks pin down what they're really talking about? I think that might help. General comment: an accompaniment should accompany, not be the main thing. If you err, you should err on the side of simplicity. That way, people might not by impressed by your guitaristic razzle-dazzle, but they'll have a chance to actually hear the song. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Stringsinger Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:28 PM Real men smash their guitars onstage. :) |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM Frantic strumming and picking that is so unpractised as to interrupt the song and draw attention to the technique is always offputting. When the technique interrupts instead of supporting the communication, artistry has failed. A |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: The Sandman Date: 19 Jan 09 - 12:18 PM frailing, Breezy. pick the melody with a down usually middle or index finger,then brush bum ditty, or bum titty ,best practised on a g string, belonging to a young woman.,but you could get two black eyes. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: breezy Date: 19 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM 'prissy' to me would imply simple arpeggio finger-work with the thumb playing a bit of melody. A 'picker' is way beyond that stage and is 'macho' and probably took awhile to master yes? No? who cares anyway? Now if only I could understand frayling |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Ron Davies Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:29 AM Speaking totally as a spectator who basically doesn't play guitar, I'd have to say this is a tempest in a teapot. As Amos says, the only important thing is that the style serve the song. Obviously if the style slows down the song so that it seems labored, the style of accompaniment, whatever that style, has to change. Even if it's just an instrumental, again the main thing is that the melody flows. As to if "prissy" (obviously a negative judgment right off the bat) style puts off young folkies, you'd have to ask them directly. The chance that young folkies would be perusing this thread is likely quite small. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: LesB Date: 19 Jan 09 - 10:26 AM "Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff?" not to me, but as soon as I see someone pick up a guitar to perform & then the frantic strumming starts, then that's a turn off (for me). Cheers Les |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:49 AM Because I'm a rancid old soak, I like to play tricks on the "folk". I dazzle the singers With twinkling fingers And larf while I watch 'em all choke! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: The Sandman Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:46 AM its possible to use the plectrum in much the same way as fingerpicking,example fingerpicking ripple in 3/4,can be emulated with a plectrum,the only thing a plectrum cant copy are two notes plucked together. prissy fingerpicking is a generalisation,quite frankly if anyone is put off by good music [fingerpicking or otherwise],Icouldnt give a fiddlers fart if theyare 19 or 99,they are best off somewhere else. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Piers Plowman Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM If you hate when they call you a sissy, There's no need to get in a tizzy: Just strum in the way That is taught by Mel Bay, And don't pick in a style that's prissy. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:36 AM whether to strum or to pluck I'm not being rude, but just look its well known that 'strum' rhymes eas'ly with bum I just knew that you wouldn't give a fuck |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jan 09 - 09:03 AM bugger that - shakey eggs all round is what i say! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Two of a Hind Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:50 AM Nobody seems to have mentioned if the song needs drive and rhythm or is better suited to individual notes being picked to accompany a more melodic type of delivery and generaly slower song. I use both, depends on the song. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Tim Leaning Date: 19 Jan 09 - 08:28 AM Wha!!!!!! Where do I find examples of claw hammer,Travis,and prissy so I can become informed please? Hi Dougie |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 19 Jan 09 - 06:06 AM Yes - I was going to ask: why "prissy"? Getting a good Travis-style piece going, with variations around the melody is anything but prissy - it's hard work that generates callouses like elephant's feet on the fretting finger ends! (Well, mine are). Yes - a whole evening of this stuff could actually be boring but, interspersed among songs, or used as a backing for some songs, can add a great deal of variety to a performance. What's harder, IMHO, is the hybrid picking with plectrum & fingers. I use this where the acoustics of the venue require increased volume - and, watching Richard Thompson doing it superbly on Hard News - must practice more! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Piers Plowman Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:40 AM Well, calling anything "prissy" is automatically damning it. I like finger-picking sometimes, and sometimes not. I don't usually like pattern-picking over and over, the same pattern, but this, too, can be effective. It's fairly easy, not much more difficult than strumming, and people can get quick results and be able to accompany themselves. Nothing wrong with that. I sometimes find rather fancy finger-picking oppressive to listen to and don't do much fancy picking myself, although I do mostly play finger-style. I'm afraid I don't care in the slightest about what young people like to listen to, rapidly approaching middle-age, as I am.* To my way of thinking, the point of "finger-picking" is polyphonic playing. At a certain point, the distinction blurs between playing chord melodies combined with runs, pattern-picking, and polyphonic playing as in the music of, e.g., John Dowland or Sylvius Leopold Weiss. My goal is to be able to play freely and by ear. I haven't acheieved this, but I feel that I'm approaching it. I have good days and bad days. One can play in a similar style using a flat pick. There are advantages and disadvantages to this, too. * Don't tell him, but he's reached it. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Acorn4 Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:24 AM I must admit , I marginally prefer prissy fingerpicking to thumb strumming. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:16 AM Ian you've hit on something. Its that 60's generation. Their fingers were on drugs. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Acorn4 Date: 19 Jan 09 - 05:11 AM Adopt as varied a range of styles as possible I would have thought. I would think any style would cause people to switch off if it's used ad nauseam for every song. My ultimate model would be the great Doc Watson who is adept at a great range of both finger and flat picking styles. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:54 AM Ian - just read your original reference to this style in the "Why folk clubs are dying" thread. Glad to hear it wasn't me you were referring to. Far from being a young performer at your session, I was probably the oldest there - hurray! It's interesting that over here in the UK, we refer to quasi-Travis style picking as a "clawhammer" - which is really not what this style is. I may be wrong, but I would have thought true clawhammer was really the guitar style of Maybelle Carter. Experts will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Will Fly Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:39 AM Ian - I wonder if I might be the "new singer coming along to our singaround" mentioned in your post? As you know I played I'll See You In My Dreams at your session recently. It's a moderately difficult Travis-style number, and my own arrangement. I'd be damned annoyed if it put newbies off, though! |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 19 Jan 09 - 03:15 AM "...One can obtain a variety of dynamics by just shifting the palm against the strings at certain points in the song to 'choke' the bass strings while holding simple, basic chord forms ..." Please God, no. This is the singer-songwriter cliché style so beloved by open mike participants nationwide... |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,jeff Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:34 AM Ed: That should read 'how it RElates to your...etc. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST,Jeff Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:32 AM Don't know what is meant by 'prissy finger-picking', but a shift in dynamics from a rousing, fast-paced number played plectrum style to a quietly played fingerstyle song w/o losing the intensity of the performance is a very effective presentation tool. When playing open stages I learned very quickly to 'listen' to the previous performer and take my cue for a first selection from the tempo/intensity of the previous performer's last song. As I progressed to getting booked I simply strung together a series of 'mini-sets' to make one long one...45-60 mins @ 3-4 song intevals. Keep explanations to a minimum and don't speak for more than 3 times per set other than to announce the song, title and how it lates to your life experience. Whether you wrote it or not. The 'secret' to good finger picking is in the right hand. One can obtain a variety of dynamics by just shifting the palm against the strings at certain points in the song to 'choke' the bass strings while holding simple, basic chord forms. And learning to play the melody of the song always makes for an effective instrumental break. Even if one doesn't get the exact notes just hinting at the melody is usually enough. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Richard Bridge Date: 19 Jan 09 - 02:31 AM As a listener (my very limited finger playing does not put me in a position to judge as a performer) I'd say that although clawhammer and Travis picking lend themselves well to a quantity of America material, for interpreting English folk music many of the best accompanists (of themselves or others) clearly reveal that they were originally classical guitar players, and that the other most apparently apt approaches are based on Nic Jones and Martin Carthy (well, what most people think of as characteristic Martin Carthy, he is actually very adept in a range of styles) styles. |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Doug Chadwick Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM Oops! That was me above. DC |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 09 - 01:58 AM …… not to be confused with the basic Dylan Bashing singers……… …… The "Prissy" fingerpicking - nice polite persons' clawhammer etc…….. Ian, I'm a fingerpicker and feel that I should be able to comment but I have no idea what you're talking about. Could you expand a little for simple minds like mine? DC |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Amos Date: 18 Jan 09 - 11:43 PM Yep. The careful Travis pick is no delight, and is best done until one's fingers bleed, in the privacy of an upstairs bedroom. When you can set a pace that is right for the song, THEN take it to the street. A |
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Subject: RE: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: PoppaGator Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:27 PM I think you have to learn slow/careful/sedate fingerpicking before you can learn to really fingerpick. I did, anyway. Have patience! The end product is worth the long slow apprenticeship. |
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Subject: Is Prissy Fingerpicking a Turnoff? From: Ian Fyvie Date: 18 Jan 09 - 09:11 PM The best folk singers I know of my ageing generation play a good intricate rhythmic style. A new singer coming along to our singaround plays a similar dynamic rhymic style (not to be confused with the basic Dylan Bashing singers common at Open Mic platforms). What has been the domimant style in the last 30 years? The "Prissy" fingerpicking - nice polite persons' clawhammer etc. Is this dated as a style and has therefore been a turnoff for a new younger generation of guitar playing singers trying out Folk Clubs? Nothing against people playing this style by the way - many friends do! But is it nevertheless a turnoff to style influenced youngsters? Ian Fyvie |
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