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BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????

Leadfingers 01 Feb 09 - 12:49 PM
Leadfingers 01 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM
jacqui.c 01 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM
wysiwyg 01 Feb 09 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Big Norman Voice 01 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM
wyrdolafr 01 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM
SINSULL 01 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM
wysiwyg 01 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM
goatfell 01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM
wyrdolafr 01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM
Megan L 01 Feb 09 - 02:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM
Megan L 01 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM
wyrdolafr 01 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM
Megan L 01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM
Jeri 01 Feb 09 - 02:51 PM
gnu 01 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM
wyrdolafr 01 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM
Amos 01 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM
wysiwyg 01 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM
robomatic 01 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Jonny Sunshine 01 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM
Megan L 01 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM
Georgiansilver 01 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM
wyrdolafr 01 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 04:36 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 01 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM
Joybell 01 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM
greg stephens 01 Feb 09 - 04:58 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Feb 09 - 05:01 PM
artbrooks 01 Feb 09 - 05:05 PM
Georgiansilver 01 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 01 Feb 09 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Mrr 01 Feb 09 - 05:17 PM
gnu 01 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM
wyrdolafr 01 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM
Georgiansilver 01 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM
robomatic 01 Feb 09 - 07:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM

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Subject: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:49 PM

I post this without any comment

Today's paper


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

Blue Clicky Didnt work


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

Here it is.

Baptists around here don't know how to keep their religion to themselves. They seem to justify their existence according to how many others they can influence or bring into the fold. It's pernicious. I can imagine that if a patient feels like a captive audience and someone does that, it can be annoying. Or frightening. They might wonder if they'll get the same standard of care of they reject this person's religious ministrations.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: jacqui.c
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

"I was told not to force my faith on anyone but I could respond if patients themselves brought up the subject


Looks like she didn't stick to the guidelines the second time. I would agree that she did not act professionally - bringing your own personal beliefs to the workplace can make other people feel uncomfortable if they do not agree.

If she was so concerned about the patients why not just pray for them on her own and without their knowledge? Then there would be no problem.

I had to sit in a car with an instructor who spent most of the time telling me all about hs religious beliefs and how much it would improve my life. Needless to say I didn't use him again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM

Here you are

Sounds pretty dodgy on the part of the employers, though it's worth bearing in mind that it might not be as straightforward as that report presents it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:25 PM

It might surprise some folks to know that proselytizing in that fashion bothers me, as well. The doctrinal divisions can get pretty complicated and not all "believers" have learned yet how to discuss their faith in a mature, relaxed fashion. This lady sounds like an example-- hasn't learned yet how to be a committed believer in the workplace in a Grace-ious manner. And hasn't learned how to follow guidelines given AND believe. She created a battle (and a barrier) where none was necessary, which hain't Scriptural, neither.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Big Norman Voice
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:29 PM

Well in a world where Christians are jailed, or condemned to death for trying to convert Moslems, it seems a bit apposite that this should occur.
Someone on the radio today said. 'I wonder what the reaction would have been, had the nurse been a Moslem?'


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM

Now whilst I think there's something to 'positive thinking' in recovery and prayer can possibly be attached to that, I personally don't want that from a nurse. I have religious beliefs myself, so it's not as if I'm unsympathetic from in perhaps framing or attributing 'positive thinking' towards a more supernatural outlook.

However, the woman in the story is a nurse, a medical practitioner. She's trained an employed in a particular field and praying for patients extends what she's actually meant to do. If she wanted to administer religious support of some kind, perhaps she needs to swap fields and become a hospital chaplain or something. Likewise, I'd baulk at the idea of a hospital chaplain offering to change my catheter or remove some stitches. I know it's well-meant but it's not what they're for.

I find the idea that the prayer-cards interesting too. I like the craft or self-publishing aspect of it, but is it really any different from me handing out pieces of paper explaining how Interplanetary Sky Brothers are coming to save us all and we have to tune our mind to a particular frequency so they can acknowledge we are ready to be saved when the earth dies in 2012? Other than one belief is more familiar than the other?

Also, I'm aware from personal experience that some - I repeat some - Christians have a problem knowing where something like this stops and proselytising starts.

I can understand why her faith is important to her but like everything else, people have to accept that what's important/interesting/necessary to one person is going to be superfluous/boring/unnecessary and irritating to someone else and you run the risk on being called on it, particularly when you broach the subject in an environment where it's not necessarily relevant or applicable.

If this was a first time offence, then I'd see the suspension as being unreasonable, but it seems she'd been warned previously. If I take home a draw-full of stationery from an office once, I might get away with, do it twice and I'd expect to be in serious trouble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

Wonder why she has to involve her patients in her praying. Why not just pray for all of them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

If this Jew were to ever have need of that nurse, I would think it a loving kindness if she prayed for my recovery...even if she invoked the name of Jesus. I would pray for her, if the need arose, without mentioning Jesus, and suspect she would be grateful for the prayer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

Wonder why she has to involve her patients in her praying. Why not just pray for all of them?

Because some people get really pissed off if you do NOT ask first.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM

maybe she did WYSIWYG and I agree would her employers suspened her if she was muslim eh! or any other faith, I mean Britian is a Christian country if you do like it well no one asked you to come here, I mean when I Britian obey the rules.
if this was a muslim country I would obey their rules but they don't obey our laws.

and when someone is praying then what has that got to do with being suspened?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM

If that is true...how sad of and for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:00 PM

WYSIWYG wrote: "Because some people get really pissed off if you do NOT ask first".

How would they know? According to the story, the nurse wasn't just for praying with the patient, but also when the nurse had left the patient. She could have gone home and prayed for them without the person even knowing about them.

Do Christians generally pick-up the phone and have a ring around before bedtime to make sure it's OK to pray for someone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:09 PM

Goatfell I cannot see how you manage to bring the muslims into this there is no indication of the patients beliefs.Had the patient spoken to the nurse asking to be prayed for that is one thing otherwise she should have done so in the privacy of her own home where the patient need never know that they had been prayed for yet she would have fulfilled her personal beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM

I suppose it depends what you mean by prayer. I can't imagine any religious person who wouldn't as a matter of course pray for sick people without waiting for permission. After all, no one would wait for the permission of all the combatants before praying for peace.

And I can't envisage anyone being offended by £Bless You" when they snbeeze. Or a "Goodbye" when parting. Both of which are, after all, prayers.

Praying with someone is a very different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM

Gawd, we've lost the plot haven't we.

I mean, someone asks if they'd like a prayer said for them, and all hell breaks loose.

What a grumpy ol' person she was praying for.

I hope God was watching and sat there thinking "Hmmmmmmm...you're down for washing the floors then, when you get up here!"

I'd be very touched if someone asked me if they could mention me in their prayers. How sweet.

Goodness, don't people pray for each other in here, when bad health or bad news strikes.

"I'm keeping you in my prayers.."
"I'm holding you close"

It shows compassion and concern..and a little bit of love too.

What a shame she wasted her kindness on some grumpy ol biddy who then went on to complain, probably because she had nothing better to do.

And why did the carer complain, when the dear lass handed out a prayer card, despite the patient being very happy about it?

Some people have no heart in their souls, and find pleasure in complaining and being horrible to others.

And political correctness feeds it all. I mean accusing her of showing a lack of diversity etc.etc..etc...

Good Lordy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

If I were in a hospital and found a nurse praying over me I'd probably have one almighty big relapse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM

Lizzie Have you ever been rounded on in your own home when you were at your most vulnerable. Believe me it can range from disconcerting to terrifying even things that when you were in good health would not perhaps bother you to such a great extent. The fact this occured in the patients own home increases the offence. Anyone in the medical and emergency services even a humble first aiders are trained that you NEVER inflict your personal beliefs on your casualty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM

I'm not a God-botherer, but I don't see why it should bother anyone to be asked if someone could pray for them. I wouldn't want anyone to pray WITH me, but I see no indication of any pressure to that end.

I'd be upset if anyone sacrificed a goat for me though. But if they offered I'd say "No thanks".


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

Lizzie Cornish wrote: "I hope God was watching and sat there thinking "Hmmmmmmm...you're down for washing the floors then, when you get up here!"

That's part of the issue though, surely? "God was watching"? Whose God was watching? Is the nurse's God, the God that's watching? I doubt, given the nurse's religious views, that 'God' here means anything other than one framed in a very particular way.

Whilst Christians may argue that this view is/can be all-encompassing, people outside that particular framework aren't necessarily inclined to agree with that idea. Even the various Christian denominations don't agree regarding views on God and worship &c and can be quick to differentiate, distinguish and distance.

I'd be very touched if someone asked me if they could mention me in their prayers. How sweet".

There was a bit more to it than including someone in their prayers though. It seems the nurse was also offering the opportunity to go to prayer there and then, with the patient. A bit different than remembering someone in prayers afterwards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:38 PM

Meg, from reading what she said, how she asked etc...I'd not have taken offence in the slightest. But then I don't take offence at Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on the door, or people from the local church etc..They're only trying to be kind, and get you to feel the love they feel for their beliefs...

And at the end of the day, does it really matter that much?

Years ago no-one would have complained, but nowadays everyone is brought up to almost look for the opportunity to see something to take offence over.

I think it would just be nice if people could say "Thank you dear, that's very kind of you, but no thanks." ...have a cup of tea and leave it at that, rather than sit there taking umbridge and putting in an official complaint.


I tell you what though, I'd be scared rigid if the surgeon was praying for me, just as I was about to go under...! LOL

Sorry, I'm a former medical secretary, very weird sense of medical humour..


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Oh for goodness sake this isnt really about praying it is about a frail elderly person who was made to feel less than safe in thier own home by the very person who was supposed to be looking after them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Umbrage


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM

God is one and only spirit who knows the true answer to 'What is folk music?' wyrdolafr.

All will be revealed to us, one day.



:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

What a shame she wasted her kindness on some grumpy ol biddy who then went on to complain, probably because she had nothing better to do.

What a shame she didn't get the message the first time it happened, when she was told to keep her religion to herself. It's like Susan said above, some people have more enthusiasm and less polish or substance when they push their religion on others. I would suggest, Lizzie, that you're the fish in the water who can't see the water she's swimming in. Those of us outside that tank find the water rather putrid.

My son was in a day care program in kindergarten that was run by the local YMCA. Down here they take the "C" as a mandate, not a simple affiliation. I learned early on that the ladies who ran the program were regularly leading the kids in prayer. I asked them not to do that to my son. The idiot who was doing it suggested this was a bad parenting idea because "your son will feel left out." I told her that if they would lay off the religious training (lots of non-christians in the group) then that wouldn't be a problem. These ladies actually STEPPED UP their pressure on my son. I am convinced they thought they were doing him a favor because of what they interpreted my ignorance regarding their sublime beliefs. I pulled him out of there and wrote a scathing letter to the Y.

I actually met that woman again years later; it turns out she is the mother of an acquaintance of my son's, and I picked him up at their house one day and realized who she was. I thought it amusing that she reminded me that she knew him from before and "I taught him at day care." In a pig's eye, she did. I told my son the story of what she had pulled when he was so small; he barely remembered, because he was only there a few weeks. Considering how I characterized her in my letter, I think she'd have done well to never remind me it was she who behaved so badly.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:51 PM

If you want to pray for someone, just do it! Telling them about it isn't praying it's a member-of-the-club thing. If the woman had asked her, fine.

The problem is this: the nurse is in a position of authority and her patients are, to some extent, at her mercy. You don't want to piss someone off or be made to feel like you might when a person has control over your meds, your care, your pain. You don't want to say 'no thank you' and you definitely resent being put in a position where you have to either agree or disagree.

I once worked somewhere where a guy was talking about someone he knew, who he found out was an atheist. Right up until that point he really looked up to this person, but he went from that to near loathing when he found out. I went from respecting this co-worker to wondering why the heck he got so upset and knowing I could never speak freely about my own beliefs in his presence. Now, I was HIS supervisor and I know I could avoid discussing religion with him, but what if the situation had been reversed?

One final thing: when you announce to someone you're going to pray for them, it's about a lot of things, but not prayer. I don't have a problem with someone asking, IF they're in some position of authority which makes it feel dangerous if I say 'no'. Anymore these days, there are a whole bunch of snide religious quips available: 'Well, I know you don't believe, but I'LL pray for you', 'You may not believe in God, but HE believes in YOU' and the like. These aren't even slightly justifiable except as holier-than-thou bitch slapping.

And about countries, countries don't have religions. They have citizens who have religions. The USA is Christian, except for when it's Jewish or Muslim or Navajo or Iroquois or Hindu or atheist or ... whatever. It was founded predominantly by Christians who naturally did what they believed was right, influenced by their religion. But it was the government and the law they created that defines this country, not the religion of the people who put the plan together. I don't know that the UK is that different and still attract immigrants with many different religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: gnu
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:56 PM

Well said, Jeri, and others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM

Lizzie Cornish wrote: God is one and only spirit who knows the true answer to 'What is folk music?' wyrdolafr".

Hehe. I think there's a few people on this board with Messiah complexes then!

"All will be revealed to us, one day".

Yeah, it will, one day. Until that point, no matter how assured we all are in our faiths, we won't really know until that day. That's why we're all best off not trying to push our beliefs on other people. I can't see how the nurse didn't do exactly that in an environment where prayer was either necessary or appropriate.

If this was a hospice run by nuns or something, I wouldn't have a problem with it as this kind of behaviour would have probably been expected and probably wanted. As it was, old people in their own homes and such, unless there was crucifixes or religious icons around the home, the nurse was probably best off keeping her (well-meaning) mouth shut about religion and prayed for them in her own space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM

Inviting agreement about prayer is not an act motivated by spiritual faith, but a request for agreement from others, something faith theoretically should be proof against. So the lass was really violating a trust of her profession, IMHO, but not carrying herself with necessary grace, as Susan put it. Had it JUST been about prayer, she would have felt quite comfortable talking to the Almighty about things without asking permission OR informing others. That's not religion, it is a form of showing off.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:25 PM

Do Christians generally pick-up the phone and have a ring around before bedtime to make sure it's OK to pray for someone?

First, there is no "generally" about Christians, and that is part of the problem. Each person grows in the faith in their own way and time, and along whatever lines of development "happen."

Second, if it is painfully borne upon one that one mustn't pray without asking first, that person is going to be biased toward asking, whether it's appropriate or not.

Third, I know personally of Mudcat relationships that have been based upon respect in these areas across incredible distances of perspective at various times. To err on the side of what one perceives to be respectful self-restraint does not necessarily mean one is showing off or proselytizing. It may mean one is doing the best one can at that particular moment and to the degree of one's best understanding on that particular day.


It's too bad [most] Mudcat discussion on this topic degenerate into sloppy dismissals of fellow human beings. Being human is much more complicated than an online discussion can usually reflect accurately. On this topic we tend more to reflect our own, individual, carefully-hoarded upsets with an unhealthy does of judgmentalism.

It's tiresome for this to keep occurring between friends, innit?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM

Taking the article as fact, if the nurse merely volunteered to pray for/ with the patient, and the patient said no, the nurse said OK, I personally don't see anything amiss.

News articles are often slanted and get certain facts wrong or leave facts out: What if in fact she mentioned this to the patient more than once, or prayed long and loud within the patient's hearing in spite of the patient's wishes.
On the other hand, the patient may indeed be sensitive and felt a need to report it.

I think the nurse went out on a bit of a limb here and should exercise her religious fortitude and realize that sometimes we're punished for our good deeds because there's a lot of people out there who don't see the world the way we do, and this was a possible, however unlikely outcome of her, for want of a better expression, sticking her neck out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM

Nurses are paid to look after people, not to pray for them. That's why hospitals employ chaplains etc.

This isn't about whether it caused offence, (and I can see situations where a patient might well be offended), it's about whether the nurse was behaving in an appropriately professional manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Megan L
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM

Johnny it did not happen in a hospital the woman was a visiting nurse in the patients own home. In hospital there would have been other people about in your own home when you are old sick and frail you are particularrly vulnerable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:02 PM

Ok so most people around here know I am Christian.... consider the possibility of me suddenly realising (or being told) that I have cancer. I would want all my Christian friends praying for me because I really believe that God does have the power to heal people mirqculously and I have already had a personal miraculous healing. I would probably also put something on Mudcat asking for prayers and good thoughts from all who cared and it would not matter to me if it were a pagan.. a wiccan... or whatever... Why should it matter if a Christian OFFERS to pray for people whether they are in their care or not. Once again it is the Christian belief that is under fire......... Take a look at the threads on here that ask for good thoughts or prayers or whatever.... is not the goodwill of the people... whoever they are and whatever belief important? Does it not strike you as odd that it is usually only the Christians that get knocked for doing their thing?   Perhaps you could ask yourselves why that happens whilst in the pursuit of your own understanding of good and evil. I add that I would ask ANYONE... in any situation if I could pray for them if I felt they needed prayer... They can always say no... but what have they got to lose??? Perhaps they might gain something from my prayer.................. Everyone has choices.
Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM

WYSIWYG wrote: "First, there is no "generally" about Christians, and that is part of the problem. Each person grows in the faith in their own way and time, and along whatever lines of development "happen."

There's no "generally" about anyone in that respect, but people do share commonalities. In this case, is it typical or a common thing to do for Christians to ask permission to include someone in prayer? I've never heard of this at all. That's why I'm asking and my asking is in the context of trying to highlight the distinction between what Lizzie suggested (including someone in their prayers) and what appears to have happened in this story.


Georgiansilver wrote: "Take a look at the threads on here that ask for good thoughts or prayers or whatever".

Without wanting to come across as arguing for the sake of it, but aren't 'good thoughts' and 'prayers' actually two different things? And, with respect to this story, it's an important distinction, surely? 'Good thoughts' is pretty much a neutral thing and independent of religion, whereas 'prayer' is inextricably linked to some kind of religious belief.

"Once again it is the Christian belief that is under fire..."

It's nothing to do with that the nurse's choice of religion; the Christianity is coincidental to this. It's about whether what the nurse was doing was appropriate or not. Whether the woman is a nurse or there to administer religious support/guidance. Whether using a 'captive audience' like that was an opportunity to proselytise.

I'd make the same argument if the nurse was a Hindu, Muslim, Discordian, Wiccan, Glycon-worshipper, Kemetic, Scientologist or a believer in the Galactic Federation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:36 PM

Taken from the link above:

"Caroline Petrie, a committed Christian, has been accused by her employers of failing to demonstrate a "personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity".

She faces disciplinary action and could lose her job over the incident.

Mrs Petrie, a married mother of two, says she has been left shocked and upset by the action taken against her.

She insists she has never forced her own religious beliefs on anyone but politely inquired if the elderly patient wanted her to pray for her – either in the woman's presence or after the nurse had left the patient's home.

"I simply couldn't believe that I have been suspended over this. I knew I hadn't done anything wrong. All I am trying to do is help my patients, many of whom want me to pray for them," she said.

Mrs Petrie, 45, is a community nurse employed by North Somerset Primary Care Trust to carry out home visits to sick and elderly patients.

The incident which led to her suspension took place at the home of a woman patient in Winscombe, North Somerset.

"It was around lunchtime and I had spent about 20 to 25 minutes with her. I had applied dressings to her legs and shortly before I left I said to her: 'Would you like me to pray for you?'.

"She said 'No, thank you.' And I said: 'OK.' I only offered to pray for her because I was concerned about her welfare and wanted her to get better."

However, after the incident on December 15, she was contacted by the trust and asked to explain her actions.

The woman patient, who is believed to be in her late 70s, is understood to have complained to the trust.

Mrs Petrie will not disclose the woman's name or reveal the precise nature of her ailment because it would breach patient confidentiality.

Mrs Petrie, who lives in Weston-super-Mare, North Somerset, said she was initially confronted the next day by a nursing sister who said the patient had been taken aback by her question about prayer.

"I said: 'I am sorry. Did I offend or upset her?' The sister said: 'No, no. She was just a bit taken back. You must be aware of your professional code of conduct. I would be careful.'

"But the next day my coordinator left a message on my home phone and I realised this had been taken further."

Mrs Petrie said that she often offers to pray for her patients and that many take her up on it.

She either prays with them or after she has left their home. The nurse has been a committed Christian since she was ten – after her mother died of breast cancer.

Initially, she was Church of England but she switched to the Baptist faith nine years ago. "My faith is very important to me," she said.

Mrs Petrie had previously been reprimanded for an incident in Clevedon last October when she offered to give a small, home-made prayer card to an elderly, male patient, who had happily accepted it.

On this occasion, the patient's carer, who was with him, raised concerns over the incident.

Alison Withers, Mrs Petrie's boss at the time, wrote to her at the end of November saying: "As a nurse you are required to uphold the reputation of your profession.

"Your NMC [Nursing Midwifery Council] code states that 'you must demonstrate a personal and professional commitment to equality and diversity' and 'you must not use your professional status to promote causes that are not related to health'."

In the letter, Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, was asked to attend an equality and diversity course and warned: "If there is any further similar incident it may be treated as potential misconduct and the formal disciplinary procedure could be instigated."

Mrs Petrie said: "I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.

"I was told not to force my faith on anyone but I could respond if patients themselves brought up the subject [of religion]."

It is the second incident – the offer to pray for a patient – that led to the disciplinary action. She was suspended from her part-time job, without pay, on December 17.

She faced an internal disciplinary meeting last Wednesday and expects to learn the outcome this week.

At last week's hour-long meeting, Mrs Petrie says she was told the patient had said she was not offended by the prayer offer but the woman argued that someone else might have been.

The nurse had her representative from the Royal College of Nursing present Mrs Petrie's husband, Stewart, 48, works as a BT engineer and they have two sons, aged 14 and ten.

The couple attend Milton Baptist Church every Sunday and Mrs Petrie said: "Stuart and I have decided to put God first in our lives."

Mrs Petrie, who has worked for the trust since February last year, has already taken legal advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which seeks to promote religious freedom and, particularly, to protect Christians and Christianity.

The centre, in turn, has instructed Paul Diamond, the leading religious rights barrister. Andrea Williams, the founder and director of the centre, said: "We are backing this case all the way."

A spokesman for North Somerset Primary Care Trust said: "Caroline Petrie has been suspended pending an investigation into the matter.

"She is a bank nurse and she has been told we will not be using her in this capacity until the outcome of our investigation is known.

"We always take any concerns raised by our patients most seriously and conscientiously investigate any matter of this nature brought to our attention.

"We are always keen to be respectful of our patients' views and sensitivity as well as those of our staff."




Nope, I'm sorry, but it seems the 'jobsworths' have got hold of this, plus those who have a real hang up about Christianity.

To be honest, in this insanity of a politically correct society where everyone is looking to tell tales, find fault and fall over sideways in horror, at what others say, I don't think any doctor or nurse should be allowed into any patient's home without another member of staff being with them. It's safer for the patient and for the medical staff too.

If we keep going at this rate, everyone will give up talking to each other completely, unless we've all agreed what subjects are to be discussed, in what way, with what words, and anyone who deviates from the desired plan will be for the chopping block.

1984



Hmmmmm..maybe we need to get rid of hospital chapels, because, after all, they're a bit excluding, and those Bibles by the beds and in hotel rooms, they'll have to go, and absolutely no more inviting the vicar round for a cucumber sandwich, because gawd knows WHAT the neighbours will think! And as for those really, truly, wicked people who gather together to pray for those less fortunate themselves, well! We'll open up The Tower and put them all in there, where they can't cause trouble...

I mean, REALLY! This has been blown up out of all proportion. Lawyers will be brought in, statements taken, police...Loadsa people will make loadsa money out of it, the press will use it to sell papers, the anti-Christians will use to shout out loud in glee and get prayer banned from the universe, especially if it's to a Christian God...

Holy Mother of all that is Holy!

I look after a lady who has TERRIBLE leg problems, she has to have them dressed every single day, bless her (woops, sorry, religion got to me there!) and I've a feeling that Lorna might look at me a bit squiffy if I asked her if she'd like me to pray for her, but she'd simply say, "That's very kind of you Lizzie, but I'd far rather have a cup of coffee, or a little more nattering...and perhaps you could just give me a quick mention tonight."

She'd certainly not pick up the phone and start the wheels turning to get this poor nurse shoved out of her job.

We live in a foooooony ol' world these days. Offence seen and taken at every turn. People being 'accused' of all sorts. Others falling over sideways in distress because someone went "BOO!" and they need to have at least £500,000 to see them through the rest of their lives because of the terrible time they've had...yadda yadda yadda..

Whatever happened to a kind smile and a behind the scenes, inward, rolling of the eyes...then life continuing on as normal?

Bring back kindness. Bring back trust. Bring back tolerance. And let's too stupidity out the window once and for all.

And bloomin' well let people get on with things themselves, without turning the entire planet into a bunch of tell-tale-tits who run screeaming to Room 101, with the next person they want exterminated for upsetting them, because they DARED to deviate from The Plan.

"Would you like me to pray for you?"

"No thanks, but thank you for the kind thought, it's much appreciated, 'cos none of these other b*ggers give a tinker's cuss about me!. Now dear, one lump or two, and do you take milk with your tea?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

"And let's too stupidity out the window once and for all."

Eh? :0) Where *did* my brain go on that one...

Not 'too' but 'throw'..


Bless you all.. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM

If you were vulnerable and sick and elderly -- how might you take an offer of prayer. I'd be thinking -- "I'm going to die! She's done all she can.
or, "I'm trapped here with this woman who is responsible for my care and I have to agree to her terms and God's -- or else!"

I'm a nurse. One of the first rules we were given was that we were not allowed to promote our own belief systems. (Although we looked like nuns in those days we were no longer part of a Holy order).
We were also taught to be very careful about how people read things we said.

I once worked with a colourful doctor. He had a fund of wonderful stories. One went like this:
He was in the home of an elderly lady (He always did house calls) and there was nothing wrong with her. She was just frightened and old and alone. He examined her and stood up gazing out of the window. Where there used to be bushland there were new houses pushed together with no trees. The doctor said, "The cancer is spreading". Then he noticed the lady's face and explained himself.

Everybody's vulnerable when they're sick, or lonely.
Cheers, Joy


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 04:58 PM

If the plumber calls, I expect him to mend the water problem. Plus a bit of chat about the weather, or football, or the closure of the Wedhewood factory.If it's a nurse, she will, I hope, change the dressings, help me into or out of bed or whatever is required. Plus a bit of chat about etc etc. I don't really want to hear about their religious prsctises, and I won't tell them about mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:01 PM

I'm not so keen on all this "careful" stuff.

If the nurse was wasting time praying in stead of doing her job - one thng. If she was offering to spend her own time - (with or without the patient) - a different thing.

I have a number of clients who adhere to a particular religion, and occasionally send me email circulars that offer me the spiritual benefits of doing some things. Quid me anxius sum? (Mad Magazine for those who do not know). I just file them in the circular filing cabinet, make a ment for the good wishes - and never reveal the fate of the emails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:05 PM

As I read the article (and I really didn't need the entire thing cut, pasted and bold printed for me), someone mentioned the incident to the nurse's supervisor, who then passed it on to "administration". They are the ones, clearly fearful of an accusation against their agency for lack of impartiality, who have taken action against her. It has nothing at all to do with the patient's religious beliefs or (other than her desire to share) with those of the nurse. Administrators, especially medical administrators (and I used to be one) tend to go overboard to avoid controversy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM

Wyrdolafr you quoted:-
"Georgiansilver wrote: "Take a look at the threads on here that ask for good thoughts or prayers or whatever".

Without wanting to come across as arguing for the sake of it, but aren't 'good thoughts' and 'prayers' actually two different things? And, with respect to this story, it's an important distinction, surely? 'Good thoughts' is pretty much a neutral thing and independent of religion, whereas 'prayer' is inextricably linked to some kind of religious belief."

The point I was trying to make is "Aren't both acceptable?" Should we not all accept good thoughts AND prayers... why is Christian prayer the one that is criticised?

You also state:-
"Once again it is the Christian belief that is under fire..."

It's nothing to do with that the nurse's choice of religion; the Christianity is coincidental to this. It's about whether what the nurse was doing was appropriate or not. Whether the woman is a nurse or there to administer religious support/guidance. Whether using a 'captive audience' like that was an opportunity to proselytise.

I'd make the same argument if the nurse was a Hindu, Muslim, Discordian, Wiccan, Glycon-worshipper, Kemetic, Scientologist or a believer in the Galactic Federation."


Our local hospital has people going in to spend time with the patients who claim to be able to give healing.... one of them uses stones/crystals as a medium for this...... stones have NO power as they are inert..... scientific fact.... so why is this allowed.... because the people who the stones are used on believe they work!!!!!!!.
Miraculous healings from God are documented..... yes even in the Bible which I personally believe is God inspired........ so you please explain to me why something that science rules out can be allowed where healing from God which is documented isn't..............


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:14 PM

I'm 99.9% sure that prayer isn't going to do a bit of good, but there is that thin sliver of possibility left over. It's sorta like lottery tickets; the odds of winning are so astronomical that I won't waste money on a ticket, but if somebody gives me one, I'm not going to throw it away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:17 PM

Good. Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church, comes to mind...


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: gnu
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 05:44 PM

Ummm.... I said it above. Gotta say it again because I have been through this lately.... Megan (and others) said it...

From: Megan L - PM
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Read that post and think about it. It's scarey as hell. And it happens more than you think and on many other levels. Don't poohpooh it... it could very well happen to YOU!


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM

Georgiansilver wrote: The point I was trying to make is "Aren't both acceptable?" Should we not all accept good thoughts AND prayers... why is Christian prayer the one that is criticised?"

Maybe because one is completely neutral and one is couched in a belief system that might be incompatible with someone else's belief system or lack of? I'll accept that they're both essentially well-meaning but I won't accept that they are the same, because they're not. If they are the same, what's the point in prayer in this scenario? Why not just wish someone well or give out good thoughts?

It's also a little disingenuous to aliken a thread about good thoughts, well-wishing and prayers and the situation with the actual story in the article. Threads on here are actively soliciting these things, whereas the prayers in the article are unsolicited and, quite literally, uncalled for.


Our local hospital has people going in to spend time with the patients who claim to be able to give healing.... one of them uses stones/crystals as a medium for this...... stones have NO power as they are inert..... scientific fact.... so why is this allowed....

I've absolutely no idea, sorry. You may have me confused for a departmental manager at your hospital. I don't work there and have no idea about the hospital policy!


Miraculous healings from God are documented..... yes even in the Bible which I personally believe is God inspired........ so you please explain to me why something that science rules out can be allowed where healing from God which is documented isn't..............

No offence and again, I have religious beliefs too and I'm interested in Forteana &c., but - as far as I'm aware - the jury is actually still out on religious healing. In my first post on this thread, I acknowledged the power of positive thinking in recovery which is said to be a factor but attributing it to religious miracles and the like is something else entirely.

I know of various cases of scenarios where healing miracles - whether it's 'psychic surgery' or laying on of hands or more commonly prayer - are said to have taken place but the idea of the Bible as proof in this scenario is a tricky one. The idea of proof of God/miracles &c. in a book "inspired" by God creates a theological feedback loop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM

The good thing is that healings do happen but the sad thing is that proving it is always another story and unless you witness it first hand of course.. you will be the proverbial 'Doubting Thomas'. What happened to me is true.. believe it or not... I have no reason to lie.. and I have seen many other healings done in Jesus name..... I also cannot prove that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit exist....... but there are millions who do believe..... why?... because they are all misled or hypnotised or worse. I believe what I believe... you have to believe what you believe but I have put a link to my 'healing' so you can at least see what I am claiming.
Best wishes whatever, Mike.

Mikes Healing


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:04 PM

I am mostly on the same page as artbrooks AND Georgiansilver but I want to make this comment on the efficacy of prayer.

I think prayer is effective in the same sense as a placebo- The human mind that prays for another is eased, and the human mind that is prayed for is eased, and there can be positive benefits to both.

BUT, as to objective healing benefits of prayer, there are the odd articles about it, but I think they are bogus. I heard someone on the radio say that it has been a longstanding Anglican tradition to pray for the health of the current monarch, and that statistically speaking English monarchs on average have not been distinguished by abnormally good health despite millions of prayers on a weekly basis for centuries.

Again, I don't hold it against the nurse that she feels a need to pray for her charges, and I like her asking the patients first, but there is a certain risk in doing this, even within the same religion, and I hope she was aware of this going in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ????
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM

Any one of any religion is more than welcome to pray for me any time.

I just thought I'd put it down on record.

They can pay money into my bank account too.


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