BS: Human migration causes economic downturn

Subject: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM

The AP has finally stumbled across the underlying factor of the world economic crisis:

AP Investigation: Banks look overseas for workers
         
Even as the economy collapsed last year and many financial workers found themselves unemployed, the dozen U.S. banks now receiving the biggest rescue packages requested visas for tens of thousands of foreign workers to fill high-paying jobs, according to an Associated Press review of visa applications.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:52 AM

I guess they thought foreign workers wouldn't catch on to the financial hanky-panky as fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:59 AM

Full article here.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM

One of the keys to understanding this is that they requested H1B visas for far more overseas workers than they ever hired. There are only about 85,000 of these visas allowed per year, and (unless things have changed a lot since I got out of the medical personnel business in 2001) the biggest percentage goes to healthcare staff. I used to hire 4-6 foreign nationals (who graduated from US medical schools) at a time for the VA medical center where I worked, because there were no US citizen physicians who would work for the salaries we could pay.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:35 AM

"I used to hire 4-6 foreign nationals... because there were no US citizen physicians who would work for the salaries we could pay."


                And that's the problem in a nut shell. That's why Bill Gates and other continue to screw the American worker. If the government is going to let these people in, the govenment should have the responsibility of policing the situation and making sure the employers are paying immigrants the same wage that Americans would make to do the same job...

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

The practice is old; I remember it being used by the petroleum companies and other corporations in the 1950s.
International companies used it in management and technical training to give varied experience to valued employees. A Colombian or Indonesian, e. g., would be transferred for work periods to jobs in company locations around the world, including the U. S. and Canada. Specialists also were put where they were needed.
A company operating globally with thousands of employees must make the best use of them, and keep their expertise at a high level by training and varied experience.

The medical and health care fields are always short of staff. Here in Canada, doctors and specialists in radiology, etc., move to private practice, higher end jobs or clinic ownership after they gain experience and financial credit. There are too few young graduates in these fields, and the result is that workers are brought in from overseas. Rural locations are not favored by ambitious workers or those who want the advantages of a city, and workers must be recruited from overseas.

The system does not screw workers in the medical fields; the truth is that there always is a shortage of workers and governments and medical facility managers don't have the cash to pay the same wages to all workers or pay extra allowances to those working in rural or other 'undesirable' locations.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:24 PM

"The medical and health care fields are always short of staff."


                  The question is why? There are enough guys standing around on street corners in inner cities to man every one of those jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:37 PM

At one place where I worked, a "foreign designed" product was being built in the US.

The "foreign" department manager had an "executive assistant" whose entire job was to process "green cards" to extend the permits for existing "foreign" workers and to add as many new ones as possible.

There were two "non-foreign" engineers in the department.

Since documentation on the product was slightly "incomplete" it did NOT MEET US CERTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS but was "grandfathered in" based on the foreign certification.

The missing documentation could have been supplied with perhaps 100 hours worth of decent engineering, and production and maintenance would have been greatly simplified, but the needed corrections were REFUSED in order to "keep the product all foreign" to justify keeping lots of "greenies" employed.

With the corrected documentation, three engineers would have been sufficient; but this manager kept an average of about 18 on hand.

While the 16 "foreign" engineers did technically competent work, the problem was that with the defective documentation it was incredibly difficult to tell what parts were used in a specific product. (That's the missing requirement for US Cert.) As a result, for the last 50 or 60 "squawks" I worked, on average the same product complaint had been fixed at least three times, a third of them had been fixed five times, and one had had EIGHT prior fixes. The fixes were all "good engineering" but, unfortunately, the parts that were fixed were NOT THE ONES IN USE ON THE PRODUCT that needed the fix.

I was concerned that telling a pilot that his complaint about a defect had been fixed when in fact the "fixed part" was left behind on a bench somewhere and the defective one was still on the airplane he was flying "might be a safety hazard." After getting firm refusals to make any correction (and complaints about my taking too long to do my own fixes - which usually required pulling at least 300 documents (in one case 842) to find a "most probably used" part on the actual airplane, I QUIT.

They probably requested at least 6 more green cards to replace me.

That's modern US business practice?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM

Reginslinger, please feel free to pick up a guy on a street corner to perform your next colonoscopy. Personally, I'd rather go to the person who had four years of college, four years of medical school and three or more years of medical residency.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:11 PM

These are relevant political and wise comments.

In a big picture futuristic framework there will be 3 billion climate refugees as the snow pack that supplies India with water and the coming european deep freeze caused by the alteration of the Gulf Stream. 15 to 20 years is the soonest these effects will be noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:34 PM

A stupid remark- guys on street corners indeed! I'm not talking about sweepers and pearl divers. Although even they require some training and be certified and bonded by the support company hired by the hospital, building management or whatever.

For technical or laboratory or patient care jobs, can they take 4-5 years of technical training overnight? And pass the provincial (or state) certification tests?
What are the minimum requirements for handling patients in your state or province? Perhaps a practical nurse whose duties are limited might get a job with two years training and a high school diploma, but that is about the minimum.
The import has had the training and can pass the tests, although in some fields an apprenticeship of 1-2 years is necessary even if they have equivalent qualifications.
------------------
John, perhaps I was lucky, but I never met with dishonest support and maintenance in the companies I worked for or with.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

JohnInKansas makes the point much better than I do, artbrooks. The reason we have people standing around on street corners is because no one will go to the effort to get those folks the training they need to perform a colinoscopy. In the short sighted immediate future is seems cheaper to hire somebody from out of the country.

             In the long run it's not, of course, and what do you know about the credentials of the institution where your foreign doctors were trained?

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM

Reginslinger, every one of them received 100% of their training in fully-accredited US universities and medical schools.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM

Great, artbrooks, where were the American students they were displacing?

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:23 PM

In Canada UK and Irish medical certification is accepted. Most others are required to have additional, as set by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of their province, in addition to passing certification. Some overseas medical schools train for U. S.-Canada-UK-India certification, included are those like Tianjin in China, which teaches international attendees in English and to standards found in those countries.
In Alberta about 40% of rural physicians are foreign-trained, and on average have had more than four years of post-graduate training. In general, they are older, and tend to stay in rural practice longer than Canadian-trained physicians. The foreign-trained physicians are doing the job that Canadian doctors won't do.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: pdq
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:46 PM

"Great, artbrooks, where were the American students they were displacing?"

Sticking rings in their noses, playing Urban Stink Noise, doing drugs, spitting on the sidewalk, graffiting buildings, getting tatoos...

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:51 PM

And as long as we continue to treat American nationals like second-rate citizens, pdq, they'll probably continue on just that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: meself
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:00 AM

The way Canada is pillaging the Third World of its doctors is criminal. There is no good reason why Canada should not train far more of its own doctors, and let the developing countries keep theirs. I have known of young Canadians who could not get into medical school despite sterling academic - and other - qualifications.

If there were more Canadian-trained physicians in total, then there would be more of them in rural areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:46 AM

That happens in the US as well, meself. It's really tough for native born Americans to get into medical students, while institutions like Kaiser Permanente are awash with doctors from India and other places. I don't know why this is, but it's a situation that needs to be corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:42 PM

Neither the U. S. nor Canada provide proper support to aspiring medical doctors and other scientifically inclined students. Even with the immigrants, their numbers are too few.

Training requires 7-8 years university and institutional practice or more. This is extremely expensive. Only those from well-to-do families, or the exceptionally brilliant who can obtain scholarships (too few) can afford it. Meanwhile their highschool friends who went into plumbing or whatever are prosperous, have a family, and are not faced with life-long study to keep up with medical or scientific advances in their field.

Students in India and China who have the drive and the ability get more support, moreover the economic system is such that support costs are much lower.

Of course some of these foreign graduates want the good life with a Porsche in the driveway, as offered (or imagined) in the U. S., Canada, etc., and will emigrate in any case.

The situation has developed over a long period of time. In research, in the 1950s, we were raiding British universities for trained graduates; now with the growth in the UK and EU, it is the Asiatic graduates who are filling the gap.

(My doctor, trained in Ireland, looks back and laughs, she would have ended up doing as well if she had stayed, what with the surge in prosperity in that country. Her attitudes have become Canadian, and she wouldn't go back in any case. A doctor in my neighborhood, from India, left to avoid the social and religious problems there.)

Subject: RE: BS: Human migration causes economic downturn
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:52 PM

Well, Q, it seems like we could be doing a lot better job all the way around. We're shooting ourselves in the foot by not doing so, in my opinion.