BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum

Subject: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:21 PM

Anybody else see/hear this story being held up as an example of deteriorating teenage standards of behaviour in the UK?

Apparently the two of them have kept the child, and are being helped by family members.

I was at school with a lass (in the 60s) who had her first child at 11, and by the time she was 16 had had 3 (or so we were told in shocked whispers about what happened to BAD girls)

To me there's nothing biologically impossible about it, nor anything any more reprehensible these days than 40 years ago. Some kids hit puberty early......

It's undesirable in social terms, possibly, but as an example of the collapsing of society's care for "children"? I don't think so.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:38 PM

If the baby is safe and loved, it is no one's business but there own. I would never recommend babies to teenagers nor marriage to legitimize a birth. But if they and their families decide to go ahead with the pregnancy and keep the child, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 03:57 PM

Slightly older kids but some friends of mine got married when they were both 15. They lived on neighboring farms with their families.

They had been sweethearts since Grade 3 and always said they would eventually marry.

When the girl was 12 her mother died. When she was 15 her father learned he had terminal cancer.

The first the two kids learned about it was when they were called in to a joint meeting between the two families and told that if they truly did want to get married the families would help them.

When I first met the couple they were 52, they had four children and the oldest one was 37 years old.

Georgia and Leo told everyone they had always been each other's best friend.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM

Life happens, then people decide for themselves how to deal. Bless 'em. They'll need all the support that can be.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

Sinsull, you said,

"If the baby is safe and loved, it is no one's business but there own."

There's some assumptions there which may foul up your statement.

"IF the baby is safe and loved". . .

With parents that age, the support, care, and safety of the baby is highly in question. At that age of childbearing--11, 13, 15--the mother is hardly competent to take care of her own welfare, let alone that of a baby, and later on for another say eighteen years.

As to the father at that age, his ability to provide a living for a baby and its mother financially is nearly nil. And his likelihood of standing up to the other responsibilities of parenthood besides financial is highly in doubt. The disappearing teenage dad is classical.

And even if the family(s) say they will take care of the kidlet, it is certainly something other than the insular "business" of the child parents. The parents are too young to be parents, and the caregiving grandparents are probably too old to be parenting a new chick from babyhood till adulthood.

And if those sources of personal and financial support falter, it becomes the business of the community, both to provide support and to deal with the wrecked human that may well be the product.

To say "If the baby is safe and loved, it is no one's business but there own" is to wash one's hands of what is at best a messy, dangerous situation.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

Since the baby is already born, Dave O, there remains not much to be done but to "wash one's hands'. What is, is.

One point: at the boy's age of 13 his parents (the "caregiving grandparents) are probably under age 45! Hardly too old for anything.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: LilyFestre
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:20 PM

A very good childhood friend of mine had a younger sister who gave birth to twins when she was 14. Just yesterday I learned that the one is studying to be a teacher at the local university and another is an LPN working on her RN. They were the first of 7 children that this young mother had without a snowballs chance in hell...yet look at them now. They had very little money but lots of love and family support. It's amazing what love can do, isn't it?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Festie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:27 PM

Firstly both should face charges for breaking the law. Secondly the families should be interviewed by police and social services and some action must be taken. Thirdly the child should be taken into care for it's own good. Lastly, the British taxpayer should not have to carry the can for yet another benefits child. Watch and see, they will get the normal package, a free house and £300.00 a week.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:28 PM

Am I the only one who is wondering whether these two will be charged with having under age sex? He was 12 when he slept with his 14yr old girlfriend and they got pregnant... what the hell sort of sex education lessons did these children have?

I'm all for toy boys, but preferably one that isn't still playing with toys!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

When I started teaching, I remember a 14 year old boy who had fathered 3 children - 2 of them with 6th form girls (17) and one with a 12 year old. I never saw that in the national papers.The gutter press is full of the vilification of young people. The majority of teenagers I have met are mature, law abiding and incredibly good to know. This is more than I can say about many teenagers I knew in my own youth.
I think it is incredibly sad that a young girl should miss out on her late childhood.It is also going to be difficult for her family and possibly the baby. That's bad enough without papers scandalising about it.Poor lass!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:40 PM

Do under age sex laws apply if both parties are under age? If so, they'd have to be convicting most kids over 13 - and not just the ones unlucky enough to get pregnant.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM

Precisely, Insane Beard. The biological imperative is powerful, and we have got badly out of step with it.

Festie seems to be short of a brain cell or two. Care proceedings for the baby will cost a huge amount more than supporting the family, or even the mother and baby, and probably cause far more damage to the child. We KNOW that putting a child in care is damaging. The critical question is whether leaving the child with a parent (or two parents) is likely to cause more or less damage, and if more, how much.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Nickhere
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:06 PM

It's not that long ago - maybe half a dozen generations, when people got married and had kids very young - 15 was not at all unusual, unless they were 'high society' and marriages were as much about inheritance, joining family estates and so on. We're talking even mid-19th century here. Some of your great-grandparents might even have got married at 15 or 16 - my great great grandmother was already married at 17.

People's life spans were shorter, so they had to get started earlier. People were poorer so they couldn't hang around at home until they decided to get married, they had to get out and start a nest of their own. They didn't spend quarter of a century or more - almost a third of their lives - in education, or expect to put off having children until into their late thirties / early forties. People also had kids young so there would be someone to look after the parents when the parents got too old - no social security net back then. The family was less nuclear - poorer people especially often lived several crowded into a single room. While this may have been uncomfortable and crowded it also meant there was large extended family to help with the rearing of the kids. Grandparents had their role to play - babysitting while parents worked, and not shoved into a home or a 'granny flat' of their own to while away their last years. There was hiher infant and maternal mortality mainly due to poor medical care and hygiene awareness, though midwives were usually very good at their jobs.

In short there's nothing impossible about teenagers having healthy babies, and raising them perfectly well in a loving family with grandparents helping out as they have done for generations. We've done it for most of our evolution up to the last 100 years when changes in fashion and society have made it frowned upon. As for paying social welfare to support such people - while I would hope they'd be honest and look for a job as soon as they can, I have no problem with my taxes going to them so they can finish school, try and get a job etc.,

With our very low birthrates in the West we should be applauding anyone who manages to bring new kids into the world. In France the government actually gives parents a bonus for every extra child. Kids who are born into wealthy families don't necessarily get any more love than those born into poor families - wealthy parents might also feel able to 'compensate' for lack of attention with money, cars clothes etc., hardly ideal parenting either.

I've had to simplify and generalize a bit here to cover such broad sociological issues but in short the kind of society we have today when people stay at school until they're 23 or more and get married in late 20s early 30s and have kids same time is an aberration in the sense that's not been the way it has been for most of history. maybe our bodies and instincts haven't caught up with the 21st century western lifestyle.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:21 PM

My cousin had her 1st at 15 she now has 5 after better than 30 happy yrs married to the same father of them all. They were as poor as a church mouse & they still are, always scrapping by but they are as happy as clams & always have been & they both love their kids as well as each other, as much now as on the day they had their 1st. Her kids have all grown into adults that any one would be proud of. Her youngerst is as old as my oldest, they are both attending the same college together.

Would anyone want to throw a criminal charge at them?
I can't think of anyone I've ever known who would've done better

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Festie
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM

"When I started teaching, I remember a 14 year old boy who had fathered 3 children - 2 of them with 6th form girls (17) and one with a 12 year old. I never saw that in the national papers.The gutter press is full of the vilification of young people"

Right, NO mention that this is wrong ????? Gutter press ? why did this paper print lies ?

I never read such a post on this site in my life that lacked so much.

Well a teacher by profession, it says it all !

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:11 PM

There's no need to sound off about everything that happens in the world as if it was a personal affront.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:17 PM

Festie,
Thanks for that.There's nothing like the cut and thrust of an intelligent and reasoned argument to brighten up an evening.Why the personal attack?

I think if you read my post again You'll find that my sympathies were with the girl.Of course it is wrong!What right minded person could think otherwise? Having had to deal with a number of young girls in this situation (more so in the early 80s) I have seen the terrible heartache it causes . What doesn't help is that this is bandied all over the press.

My main argument was that that this is not a new situation.The papers are focussing on it because teenage immorality is a pet theme at the moment.I don't believe that today's teenagers are any more immoral than in the past.I do however believe that their parents have been self seeking and irresponsible to talk to the media.It is the children who will in the end have to deal with the fallout.

Where did I say that the newspapers lied? I merely think that some consideration should be given to the harm this type of story does.

I would thank you not to resort to personal insult in future. This is a public forum ,you don't know me and I don't remember insulting you in my post.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM

I do however believe that their parents have been self seeking and irresponsible to talk to the media.

Possibly so - I haven't and won't read the tabloids on this one.

But the thing about those kind of papers (and not just those kind) is that they can put a powerful squeeze on when they scent a story. "If you don't talk to us, that won't stop us printing the story. But you might not like it very much, it won't have your side..."

And then when they talk, the words can be edited and selected in a way that can make them seem to say things that weren't said, and can present a picture that doesn't represent the truth of a situation, but matches the angle that has been decided already.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:52 PM

It has just been on the TV news!What can i say? A complete interview with the "Proud grandparents"(Who won't of course make any money from selling their story...)and the new parents- who will not yet have realised the possible consequences of all this publicity.

Where are the "Responsible editors"?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:26 AM

But Barry - you wouldn't advocate in principle for starting out on life as a parent at 15 - would you -- even though sometimes it can work

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 03:47 AM

Having seen the picture of the father, I have a number of doubts. Nine months after the event, he has no facial changes to imply anything approaching sexual maturity. How could his testosterone levels be high enough to release sperm if not high enough even to cause acne? No bone changes, no facial hair. Is he the father? Isn't it odd for a 14 year old girl to feel attracted to someone two years her junior. As I recall, it's two years older that draws the attention.
They both come from large families which seem on the feckless side. This isn't a society wide problem. There are a few families where children may seek comfort in early sexual behaviour.
I have seen boys who early in their teens do look physically mature - I've seen one at 9 who had me suspecting that the body builders he hung out with had been feeding him steroids. His muscles and body shape, and taut face looked older, but he had no body hair or other development. This lad shows none of that sort of thing. I have doubts.
Penny

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 04:58 AM

From Paula T: "My main argument was that that this is not a new situation.....I don't believe that today's teenagers are any more immoral than in the past."

This was the feeling I had about it as well....I haven't seen it the papers, can't afford any, it just came up briefly on radio 4 (pm, I think). So I haven't seen any of the details

I know a 12 year old lad who in the last 2 years has shot up to 6 foot something, his voice has broken etc etc. I know that's early, but I'm sure he'd be capable of fathering a child, though I don't suppose he would.

The age of average marriage has gone up and down over the centuries, from my quite extensive reading of social history - I think to say it was always much earlier than now is too sweeping, but I think that the present situation is leaving things a bit late.

I had my son & daughter at 22/23, which meant that by the time they were booted out to university at 19, I was able to look at some extensive "me" time, which I'm now enjoying.
They've chosen to wait (in one case) till 35. Granddaughter hits puberty as daughter hits the menopause - not a good combination, IMO.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 05:44 AM

Interesting to see what the bill will be to the taxpayer for raising this child and both parents. The government has to do something about this problem. Teenagers get knocked up to get out away from mum and dad and get a free council house and a weekly wage to sit on their ass, or in most cases, to lay on their backs. The country is full of them.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 06:58 AM

Odd,isn't it ?? If the father of the 15 year-old's child had been 18,then he would be facing criminal charges,and,if 50 or over,would doubtless be branded a paedophile.But,because he is only 13, everyone's getting all "Ooooh" and Aaaaaagh" and "How Sweeeet"" and crap like that---it makes me sick !! And yes,people may have got married and had children at a young age in the nineteenth century, we all (or should) know that, but the point is that they got MARRIED (although I don't know about at 15), they didn't go around having multiple partners and infecting each other with venereal disease,and their children were THEIR (or their families') responsibility, not the Taxpayers!No wonder the Muslims,with their strong family ethos and moral ethics,despise us so much !!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:13 AM

She's 15, he's 13. Why does this story make me think of Ivor Cutler's Beatrice And her Dirty Knees?

I didn't know they had VD, b-rat, and I didn't know getting married prevented it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:30 AM

The presumption made in some of the opening posts to this thread that these two young parents will be supported by their parents and that all will be well smacks of being blissfully naive.

This is the boy who when asked how he could support his family financially asked the reporter, "What's financially?".

The boy and girl involved are members of families that basically just let their children run wild - what makes you think that those people will now become responsible parents?

It is a tragedy for all concerned, and as such should be deplored.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:36 AM

Good Folk song in there somewhere:-

For he is only 13 yrs,
And I am just 15.
Oh the bonny boy is young,
But he's growing.

I guess like every other situation that crops up in life that causes surprise and doubt etc.... we will just have to wait and see... and I reckon the authorities will be monitoring them to some degree (if they have the resources).
I cared for teanage girls and their babies for over ten years of my career... we had them from as young as eleven (made pregnant at ten by her own father) to eighteen. Most of them arrived pregnant and had their babies at the local maternity hospital....some were brilliant mums... some were good mums... some weren't capable of caring for themselves, never mind children... but often it was the ones we thought wouldn't cope that coped quite adequately with being a mum. It was hard for us to assess who would keep their babies and who would give them up.... so how can anyone judge whether this child will be loved and cared for by its parents.. whatever age?. It is not impossible for a thirteen year old boy to develop a sense of responsibility beyond his years and how often has it been tested.
I guess the parents will have responsibility for all three of them for the time being... I hope they are well enough equipped to 'help' in the bondings of all three.
Once again, let's just wait and see.. because if it doesn't work out, we will hear more of it.. if it does... great..... and I wish them all the joys in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

TruBrit, no I don't advocate for this but (shit happens) once a teen knows they/he/she are gonna become a parent they have a few choices to make & those choices in the end all belong to them, not to any one else. They can ask for help, that would aid them in their making a choice but no one has the right to force a choice on them, they are the ones that will live with the choice, everyone else can walk away if they so choose but they will always the ones to carry the weight.

As I said my cousin was 15 she's now in her 50's she/they grew up young right along side the kids & they are one of the most devoted families I have ever had the pleasure of knowing.

The gripe about someone's taxes or the state taking care of the costs, give me a break. Those people are probably the 1st to screem that sex education is a waste of their hard earned money. The worst of the social diseases is a lack of education. Kids are never to young to learn. They were born to experiment, that's why they sometimes get into difficult situations. We are all (or should be) teachers, only a very few are good enforcers & I've heard from none on this thread.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 08:21 AM

There is an estate close to were I live and it's full of teen mums who live alone. None of these girls work, it doesn't pay them to. Friday amd Saturday nights they dress in very little and head out in packs. Kids probably left alone and wake up next morning to some bloke heading down the stairs after you know what.

When I was growing up mums got their mothers to care for kids while they held down full time jobs. Today thanks to government policy to leave school expecting a kid is a career. Social workers sort out the paperwork, days later you get the keys to a house and the weekly cheque comes in. Nothing is being done about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 08:31 AM

So it's the goverment policy now that's at fault Lexy? It's a sign of the times? When you were growing up? Please give this a rest! Sex education is the 1st & foremost tool in prevent teen pregnantices, after that a good education. Both the parents & the state is responsible for that. Just saying no is just what it implies, "nothing" & that's a waste of your money.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 09:03 AM

Charge the 13 and 15 year old as they both committed a crime. Don't make benefits so handy, let teen mums stay with mum and dad, no more handy weekly handouts. The don't want to prevent teen pregnantices, take the plank out of your eye Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 11:57 AM

GUEST,Lexy seems to know an awful lot about that estate - that most of the people living there are teenage mums living on their own, that none of them work, that they all head out on Friday and Saturday nights, and mostly bring home a strange fella for the night...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:06 PM

Any aid to teenagers should be very very conditional..you will be learning a trade, you will be working X hours in a nursing home, or parks department or whatever, depending on criminal history etc...you will be very closely supervised, you will be contributing something to the community which is overburdened already. They should be in parenting classes, have group nurseries, supervised, where they leave babies for a while and take care of each others' babies, their comings and goings and social contacts should be monitered. There should be drug screenings, and in short, it should not be punitive or abusive, but it should be structured, society should get at least something back, the parents should end up with at least a modest trade, and there should be no dens of domestic violence, child neglect, drugs, etc. There should be the equivalent of den mothers to keep an eagle eye on things, and their housing should be inspected periodically. Not too much to ask. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:28 PM

The plank in my eye Lexy should be brought down across your backside.
You want to tie up the justice system for a few teens that got into a mess. That's a sure way to a soul.tion. Send them underground, increase the number of runaways, see the teen suicide rates skyrocket, alley way abortions enter the scene. Lexy & Mg have their fingers on the pulse of the problem, NOT! How about a couple bucks for education?
Underage kids having sex with each other is not a crime & there's a reason for that, it's the same for consenting adults! There are plenty of those that shouldn't be allowed to have kids too, idiot!

Why not sterilize the little bastards before they're old enough to hit puberty. Like they use to for those that weren't approved for having kids, like some minorities, the mentally challanged, drunks & addicts, priests & nuns. Cause they'll all cost the tax payer too, right?
Sometimes I feel as if we should jail idiots because of their dangerous thoughts but no, we have to wait for those idiots to act on them 1st. Good thing no one has put you two in charge of anything more than a keyboard.

What's a "weekly handout", Lexy?

You sound like someone who keeps screeming about their taxes going to schools & education just because you don't have any kids that will benifit from it. You should be put to pasture, troll.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:05 PM

Hm..I think I mentioned learning a trade, and meant vocational or occupational education, as well as regular education. I also mentioned parenting classes. Do not see the lack of education in my proposal.

It is not just a few potential problems. It is a huge and growing problem, and we can not afford it and it is not fair to the babies, the teens themselves (and a 13 year old boy is usually still pretty child-like), and it is not fair to their parents, and it is not fair to people who have to pay for this, and it is not fair to people who have to endure the social consequences of spreading poverty..such as dangerous neighborhoods.

It is the biological imperative that every 15 year old girl instinctively (OK take out every..I don't want to bother arguing) wants to get pregnant whether she realizes it or not. We have to put obstacles up in the face of biology..the main one is constant supervision of younger teens..never should a 13 year old get pregnant..and supervision has to be lessened as they approach 17 or so, when hopefully they could at least raise the baby and partially support it.

This is what drives all sorts of ensuing problems. If we can get a handle on it, problems will fade from society. Don't bother saying I am blaming the victim. I don't buy it. I do not blame the victims. I do blame the enablers. If you have teens, they ahve to be supervised, in group social settings for part of their day hopefully, in healthy recreation, which most of them do not have access to, and not have access to the pull of the streets, the gangs, etc. I know that will be very hard for some as situations are very bad often..but there is a huge gray area where kids cango either way, and a large part of teen pregnancy is just the social acceptance of it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

mg, I think I have noted befoe that your solution involves the duenna concept. Far better to my mind is the vital education that Barry proposes.

People, including children, are not inherently stupid. People, including children, respond to their own self-interest. Aware self-interest leads to actions that further that self-interest. Let's work with that fact.

Listening to what they are saying is an essential part of education, both theirs and ours.

One of my battle cries is that if I could do one thing, I would get it across to children that life needn't be as hard as we tend to make it.

And further: Every child is entitled to a mentor!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

Ebbie:

One point: at the boy's age of 13 his parents (the "caregiving grandparents) are probably under age 45!

My wife and I adopted (because of childlessness) at 36 or so, and again at 39; and believe you me, that's already too far along for a first child--not when Junior is a cute, cuddly little helpless thing, but 16, 17, 18 years later it can be pretty grim. The world those kids inhabited is so changed from our young days that we had no idea what was going on in and around them, and in a number of ways we failed them.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM

But, Dave O, we all fail them. There are no do-overs, the best we can hope for sometimes is understanding and forgiveness.

A friend of mine has two sons. The older one, now 30, is fine. The younger one, 28, is in terrible shape, mentally and in prospects. He is currently hooked on meth but he started out as a 'problem child' filled with inexplicable hate and rebellions and lack of . His parents cajoled, punished, sought therapy and intervention from the authorities. He still ended up on the street and in frequent trouble with the law.

Now, my friend says, they know they failed the boy in so many ways; they simply did not know what he was going through.

My parents were 48 and 50 when they adopted two little girls, 17 and 6 months respectively. It is true that the girls' parents were significantly older than those of their peers but they also had numerous older brothers and sisters who rallied 'round.

I do agree with you, Dave O, that life today for the young'uns is immeasureably more difficult than it used to be.

On the other hand, that is the identical thing my parents told me when I was young.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM

I haven't read all this thread. But generally I believe, that there needs to be far greater active encouragement of young fertile girls to to easily access safe Birh Control.

Sexually mature girls (approaching the physical capacity to concieve babies (ie. Menarch), rather than exhibiting sexual behaviour and activity), should be able to get such life altering stuff, easily via the school nurse IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM

Err, which means I believe, give them the essential chemical/barrier failsafe's alongside the preachy "don't do this" stuff that they may well ignore...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:31 PM

An analogy here:

In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:53 PM

IMO Creating a taboo of any kind, incites natural rebellion. Just like my naughty cats who always do whatever it is that they know annoys me most in order to get my attention...

With girls, I think that a very gentle "it's here if you need it" approach is best, along with all the essential information about how pregnancy can cause major upheavals etc.

But IMO, give them fast easy access to the child prevention technology, before they even need preaching to, would be the most pragmatic solution to an awful lot of buggered up lives...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 05:58 PM

Many years ago Himself worked at a place where there were several families working alongside each other - husband and wife, father and son etc. One father and son had just 14 years between them, i.e. father was 14 when son was born.

Perhaps things were different then; this was in the 70s, so the birth would have taken place in the 50s. People felt differently then about young marriages and families. Nowadays we are surprised if anyone under 30 gives birth!

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 09:39 PM

To the various souls who have said - sex education is the answer, I say amen. Both my daughters were offered birth control at 15 -- both took the option. Both are lovely young women, neither of them are promiscuous and neither of them are unplanned mothers yet at the ages of 23 and 27 respectively.......

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:47 AM

Kids having sex at that age disgraceful.

This makes an interesting read: Worldwide Ages of Consent.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Lexy
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:00 AM

In today's paper the boy wants the mum to take a DNA test. Four other local boys are claiming to be the father. I would charge the grandparents with neglect. A sad refection on what Britain has become.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM

Which put me in mind of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VcGJZpfl1c

Perfect listening for a weary Sunday morning, Barney's shorts notwithstanding...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:03 AM

A sad refection on what Britain has become.

Personally, I find your posts to this thread a sadder reflection, Lexy.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:43 AM

Children having children, and the grownups have to pay.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: goatfell
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 08:15 AM

what about their parents?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Blowzabella
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 09:02 AM

http://news.aol.co.uk/boy-13-may-not-be-babys/article/20090215070826311857017 Seems there are other candidates for the paternal role

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 09:47 AM

They are only children themselves. Something has gone very wrong somewhere along the line. Where was the sex education for them both? and where is their self respect? They have lost their childhoods, when they should be out hanging with friends, taking up hobbies etc they will be changing nappies and having sleepless nights. I think it's very sad and I don't agree with it but I hope they get the help they need for the sake of the child.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:30 AM

What is the legal position about these children being identified in the media?
Had they mugged someone, their identities would have been protected.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:49 AM

I see some big black pots calling the little kettles black.
Are you all pretending that you sex outside of marriage is a sin? or only wrong for young teenagers?

It seems the suggestion is that the sex was OK but getting pregnant was not.

Barry has it right. Kids experiment. So do adults. Sometimes the result is a child, sometimes wanted/sometimes not. Once again, I will say that if the child is loved and cared for, it is no one's business but their own. The publicity seems to have come from the family maybe in hopes of getting some money out of it. Certainly, this is not the first child born to a young teenager. Posts above prove that.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

Well I certainly didnt experiment I waited till I found the one man in my life I married him and this is us into our 26th year.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

Megan,
I can (but won't) name several 'Catters who have posted to this thread who did experiment and did have children that were "unexpected". It happens. And it happens with very young teenagers. It has happened with very young teenagers for centuries.

Claiming that society is falling apart or pretending that self respect is the issue is ludicrous. Read what Georgiansilver has posted above. Do a search on 'Catters who have adopted children. "Unexpected" teenage pregnancies with no medical follow up until the birth are the source for many of these babies. Add to that a young mother with no concept of childcare who keeps the baby until it is no longer "cute' then dumps it into the foster care system. This birth is not the end of society as we know it as long as the child is cared for properly.

I am far more concerned about an adult with six children who is artificially inseminated with octuplets, brought to term, and then announces that she can't support the children she has never mind the eight new ones and their concurrent medical bills. To me, this is criminal behavior not the careless experimentaion of a 12 year old.

Rant over.
I was not belittling monogamy. I was questioning the holier than thou attitude of some who have posted. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

Sorry Sinsull I am not on top form today was up most of the night with upset tum. You are right My mum always said fowk in glass hosses shouldny play fitba.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 12:11 PM

No problem Meg. There is a bug going through my office guaranteed to take off ten pounds in two days. I can't wait... Hope you feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:34 PM

The only way to keep kids from having sex is to remove their genitalia when they're born and give 'em back on their eighteenth birthdays.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

I'm not taking an holier than thou attitude. I just think it is sad that this has happened. The kids may or may not have known what they are doing and the result is an innocent baby. I really do hope that they get the help to learn to be parents and bring the child up. I don't think the child should be removed from the parents however young they are unless they are totally incapable of looking after it and have no support network. I do think the sex education these days needs to be up to date so that kids are not clueless about what can happen should they experiment at an early age.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:52 PM

Yes, it's always good to use protection against not just pregnancy, but also venereal diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

Yes I agree but there has to be the education programme there in place. I remember we had quite a good sex ed at high school both in science class and in PSE lessons, everything was covered and we had a very good teacher that wasn't embarrassed. I think parents should educate their children too and not leave it all to schools.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Rapunzel
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 02:29 PM

Education is key.

I was educated in a Roman Catholic secondary school in the 1980s. Our Religious Studies teacher had the excellent sense to regularly tell us "If you break rule number 1, please be sure to break rule number 2 as well!"
In other words, if you do have sex outside marriage/under age, then for goodness sake use contraception.

I don't know of any kids in my year who were pregnant before we left school, but I'm sure they weren't all waiting to have sex.

Meanwhile, in this case, what's done is done, lessons need to be learned, but there is no mileage in laying blame.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:08 PM

I think I educated my kids too well - son aged 21 & daughter aged 28 and not a grandchild in sight...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:32 PM

There are very clear guidelines for PSHE education in the UK, but unfortunately they are not yet a statutary part of the curriculum so schools teach as much or as little as they like. Consultation has taken place but there has not yet been a decision made as to whether it should be compulsory or not.
In my experience as a teacher of PSHE education for many years, the vast majority of young people in this country are very much more aware of the facts and consequences associated with relationships than people of their parents' generation.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:48 PM

Of course, education is key, but using what one learns in school is even more important, though no one can force another to protect against pregnancy, not even a spouse or lover.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:26 PM

I have a cousin born with congenital syphilis. Dad was screwing around; Mom did not know. The child suffers from associated mental disabilities.

To get back on subject: If adults who know and understand the consequences don't take precautions, why would anyone expect a child operating on impulse to?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

I meant to add: with or without sex education.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

Especially if you are under the impression that you can't get pregnant - 'the first time', 'standing up', 'before your voice breaks', 'during your period' or any number of other myths...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Cool Beans
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:06 PM

There really is an old British folk song about the very subject: "Lang A-Growing," sung by Ewan MacColl, Liam Clancy and others. The final verse begins:
In his twelfth year he was a married man
And in his thirteenth he had gotten her a son...

So much for (A) The moral deterioration of these kids today and (B) A folk song yet to be written. It's been done.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

e had quite a good sex ed at high school both in science class and in PSE lessons, everything was covered

If everything was covered, how could you learn much?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM

You realise that the basis of this thread is a newspaper article, and associated news media splashes?
Since when did we start believing what we read in the newspapers?
Especially the so called 'Red tops'
So it is all based on information given by someone/some organisation, with an 'agenda'.
It is never a good idea to make judgements based on partial information, and I can bet none of us know the full story.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:45 PM

I never read it in the papers, It was on the ITV television news. Has all the television news channels got it wrong ? I doubt it.

The full story is all over the media. The families are all saying the same story. Please tell us what else you require to believe this story.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Nickhere
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:03 PM

Ebbie, that's an interesting analogy -
"An analogy here:

In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more"


Could it be that we missed the 'Safe smoking' classes in school? ;-))

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM

I would say, 'read Mark Twain', but as you haven't even read my post properly, it would seem like a superfluous piece of advice.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM

John, you said "Since when did we start believing what we read in the newspapers?"

I saw the story on television. I know I am getting on a bit, but incidents like this should not get the "social cuddle" treatment.

We are losing the fabric of society and when someone of my age speaks up I am told to shut up. I would charge the families with neglect, take the child into care and if the father of the child is a minor I would put him into a carehome. You may say that's harsh, but it would send out a message that the government hasn't lost the will to deal with crime, whatever you call it, it's crime.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM

Crime? Please explain.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:23 PM

"In the days when I smoked I first thought of it as a 'religious issue'; I was brought up in a religious atmosphere and my parents were adamantly against smoking.

"Years later more information came out about the health effects of smoking and then I felt much worse about it.

"Maybe if instead of telling the kids: Just say No! as to engaging in sexual activity we put the emphasis on 'Safe sex' we would accomplish more"


"Could it be that we missed the 'Safe smoking' classes in school? ;-)) " Nickhere

Let me elucidate, K?

Smoking when I thought of it as a rebellion was one thing

Smoking when I realized that I was harming only myself was a different thing entirely

Trying to avoid pregnancy is one thing

Trying to avoid sexually transmitted disease is another thing entirely.

Safe sex typically involves a condom.

Sex while wearing a condom rarely results in pregnancy

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 07:37 PM

In the UK it is a crime to have sex with a minor. In the UK it is a crime to neglect and child. Is it not the same wherever you live ?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 08:08 PM

In the US it is a crime to have sex with a minor. When you yourself are a minor it becomes a different issue.

Abuse and neglect of a child? Come on. You should know that in the US we approve of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:35 PM

"In the UK it is a crime to have sex with a minor."

Even if you are a minor? No, it's not the same where I live - at least, it's not a crime for minors to engage with each other in consensual sexual activity, as far as I've ever heard. Is that really a crime in the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:50 AM

In England and Wales and Northern Ireland the same laws apply to heterosexual and homosexual activity and offences can be committed by anyone, male or female, over the age of 10, which is the age of criminal responsibility.

It is an offence to intentionally engage in sexual touching with a young person aged 13, 14 or 15.    'Touching' covers all physical contact, including touching with any part of the body, with anything else and through anything, for example, through clothing. It includes penetration.

A person aged 18 or over is liable to up to 14 years imprisonment for this offence.   A person under the age of 18 is liable to up to 5 years imprisonment.   A person may claim in their defence that they believed the young person to be over 16.

Intentional sexual touching of a young person under 13 is an absolute offence. This means there can be no defence in such a case that it was believed the person was over 16. Sexual touching which involves penetration of the vagina, anus or mouth by the penis or penetration of the vagina or anus with a part of the body or any object is punishable by up to life imprisonment.    Sexual touching not involving penetration is punishable by up to 14 years imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:02 AM

The best 'sex education' I got was in second year juniors! The kids were'nt embarrassed the teachers weren't embarrassed. We all found it very interesting. I remember learning that when a man and a lady 'make love' - at this point we illustrated our work with generally ananomically accurate drawings of nudey men and ladies lying together, cuddling or something :-) - then the lady grows a baby in her tummy. Can't remember the precise details about what it was the man was supposed to put into the lady, or where... In fact I don't think I've quite figured out the 'correct' procedures regarding that particular bit, yet myself. Which isn't helped much, by the fact that they seem to want to put it in allkinds of funny places!

Seriously though, my best friend at school was having sex at twelve with an eighteen year old boy. She was quite a sporty, confident girl. It all seemed like nothing much to me, back then, though now of course, I might see things somewhat differently...
And while she didn't get pregnant, I do recall another girl leaving school around age fourteen to have a child.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:04 AM

Saw the young parents on the news this morning and the boy does look very young indeed. The morning breakfast shows have been talking about sex ed and the reforms that are needed but parents need to take a role in educating their children too but I can understand them being embarrassed by it.

Schools need to promote sexual health and where teenagers can go to get themselves checked out and stress that it's nothing to be ashamed of to look after yourself. When I've started new relationships I've always got checked out because you can never be sure where the person has been before you or indeed where your exes have been. Luckily all tests came back negative. But I had an excellent education from school and parents.

The young mum will have been given a full STI check up as part of her ante natal care as it is standard practice these days if you have a baby on the NHS.

Like I've said before and others have said education is the key. These young parents are very nieve (sp?) and have to grow up too quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:22 AM

Sad thing about it is other kids will probably now see a way to become famous.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: goatfell
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM

what about the parents of the 13 and 15 year old? one person said that the boys father is useless

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

Presumably the usual doli incapax rules would apply in the UK ie a conclusive presumption of innocence if the perp is under 10 (or is it 10 or under?) and a rebuttable presumption of innocence to the age of 14.

As far as I recollect when I was 12 or 14 we were all groping furiously or wishing that we were, and a sizeable and much envied minority were having sex - most of that minority (ie the active under 14s) being female.

It is usually useless to try to change human nature by prohibition or legislation.

I get quite vexed by those who want to prevent sex without some magic mantra.

I am convinced that the biggest cause of mental health problms in later life is the lack of a happy sex life. That is what we should be educating or preparing children to achieve, once they are capable of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:48 AM

Actually the reason some of my first sexual experiences were not shit, was probably down to the fact that my partner had stored away information on good sexual 'technique' from his sex ed. teacher - who had given the boys in his class explicit and detailed instructions on the right way to do it in order to make a woman 'happy'.

I think they even discussed stuff like rimming... A subject I sure never learned about in the classroom!

With the amount of rubbish porn out there on the internet that boys in particular will be accessing all the time, some 'realistic' sex instruction with boys, would probably be of benefit to the *girls* they then sleep with.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 08:50 AM

The mechanism of human sexuality is less determined by its biological function as it is by ensuring that human behaviour is such that procreation will, upon occasion, take place. Somewhere, no doubt, there will be statistics showing the proportion of instances of heterosexual intercourse that result in conception - and those that don't. Not only will this prove fascinating reading, but will effectively give the lie to the somewhat perverse notion that sexual intercourse is somehow about procreation and is, therefore, somehow natural to that end (the further implication being that homosexual intercourse is unnatural and therefore an abomination in the eyes of God).

The reality is such that we can effectively divorce sexual intercourse from procreation to the extent where the two things have nothing to do with one another in any sense that is other than purely coincidental. The impulse to make love, is not the impulse to procreate, and procreation is merely a random and by no means inevitable (or welcome) by-product of a procedure which is of far greater significance to the human cause than procreation will ever be.

*

I posted the above elsewhere, but feel it has relevance here in underlining the central hypocrisy of our oxymoronic system of sex education which bypasses the reality of human sexual behaviour by several light-years - at least it certainly did in my day (Nuffield Book 3 anyone?).

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Diva
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:49 AM

What Khatt said in an earlier post, they are just weans themselves and this is an incredibly sad situation. Weans (children for the benfit of the non Scots speakers!)need boundaries and education and help when it goes wrong! Sadly this one looks like it will end up on Jeremy Kyle in a few years time.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

If a crime has been committed here, which I doubt, surely the 'criminal' would be the older child - in this case the 15 year old girl - or are we saying that any girl is the victim of the boy who gets her pregnant?

I was sexually active from a young age, partly due to no sex education other than what the kids at school let loose and partly because I was so desperate for love and attention at that time that I would do just about anything for someone who showed me that attention.

I got pregnant at 17 and had three kids before I was 22. I've since been through three divorces before I met Kendall.

Now, looking back, I would have preferred a lot of that shit not to have happened, but it made me what I am today and I have two lovely children who I wouldn't change for the world. I've also managed to get to a point where I am happy with who I am, but that lesson took a long time to learn.

I see these young kids taking on responsibilities that can floor adults in secure relationships and wonder how in the hell they are going to cope. Thing is, a lot of them do and, maybe because their own home lives left a lot to be desired, they try to make their children's lives better. I hope that this is the case here.

IMHO you can give children all the sex education that you want but, if those kids are crying out for something that they aren't getting at home, they are quite likely to turn elsewhere for that closeness, which is craved by the majority of the human race. Then, when some one says "If you love me you will..." they will quite often have sex, just to keep that person close.

Maybe we all ought to be making sure that children, all of them, are given a good self image. Maybe we should be teaching respect, both for ourselves and for others, in schools - to me that is one of the most important lessons that any of us can learn.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Winnie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

We live in sad times. No doubt there will be a line of "dogoers" offering help.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 11:41 AM

Jacqui, well put...we do need to make sure children have healthy self-images which can lead to the confidence to wait to have sex and to make a lot of "good" decisions in their lives.

Like you, I got pregnant while a teen, 16, and a mother by 17. My other two were born before I was 25 and I've been married three times; the third time was a charm for me. We're coming to our 29th.:-)

I didn't lack for love and support at home, though. I was just ready to be out in the world, away from my parents' supervision, and I enjoyed sex! Didn't know beans about preventing pregnancy as there was no sex ed back then AND a kid had to have their parents' permission for any kind of birth control pill, etc.

I have no regrets. I would not be who I am had things gone differently. That may seem an obvious statement, but who knows in what profound ways it may have been different. I am happy with who I am and I am proud of my kids, all three of them.

That said, all three of mine were offered information about sex, birth control and a SAFE place in which to experiment and none of them had children until they were in their late twenties. They knew they could come to me and talk about anything, as did their friends.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Am I the only one still stuck on the question of whether or not it is a "crime" for a twelve-old-year boy and a fifteen-year-old girl to engage in sexual activity? A couple of posters have asserted that it is; several have cited law that seems to imply adult/minor activity; even Richard Bridge's response was not conclusive (does "a rebuttable presumption of innocence to the age of 14" make a criminal of the fifteen-year-old girl?)

I'm mildly flabbergasted by the notion, to tell you the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

Exactly Kat. My children were taught about sex at home, before they were old enough to be self conscious of Mum talking about it. At the time we lived in an flat, with an open play area, and I wanted to make sure that they would heed the warning about talking to strangers and so explained what a peadophile was and what they did. Andrew had also been curious about where the baby in my stomach had come from, before Sharon was born.

Neither showed any inclination to experiment with sex in their early to mid teens. In fact, when my daughter dated her first serious boyfriend, I brought up the subject of birth control, only to be told off for even suggesting that she might do something like THAT at her age (16)! She told me that she considered that 18 was young enough and that her lad agreed with her.

Both my kids waited until they were in their 30s before having children.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM

The Joy of Sex Education

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7892257.stm

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Meself...I'm really not sure where the law stands when both parties are underage and I'm not altogether sure that we can lay blame on either party.

The young couple have the massive task of raising the little one when they are still trying to find out about themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: kendall
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:18 PM

First off, "Judge not" comes to mind. When married adults screw around outside their marriage they are breaking the law. Now, exactly what law were these kids breaking? Our disapproval is not a basis for punishment; there must be a law against it. If there is no law against it, it is not a crime, like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:44 PM

"If there is no law against it, it is not a crime, like it or not."

What I'm trying to find out is if there actually IS a law against it. I gather that while everyone here has an opinion, no one actually knows ... which would lead me to wonder - if there is a law against it, how on earth would these kids know, if such an august body of learned, worldly adults as ourselves don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:53 PM

I think the legal side of it was put rather clearly further up the thread here, by Sooz.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:32 PM

I guess I'm a little dense then, because I don't find it particularly clear. Sooz said, " ... offences can be committed by anyone, male or female, over the age of 10, which is the age of criminal responsibility.... It is an offence to intentionally engage in sexual touching with a young person aged 13, 14 or 15. .... " First of all, where does that leave eleven- and twelve-year-olds (or those younger)? And are we really to believe that if, for instance, two eleven-year-olds engage in "sexual touching" that they are committing a criminal offence? And, in this case, that the twelve-year-old could be prosecuted for engaging in "sexual touching" "with a young person aged 13, 14 or 15" (and how "young" is a fifteen-year-old in relation to a twelve-year-old anyway?).

Further: "A person may claim in their defence that they believed the young person to be over 16." So the twelve-year-old could use this defence?

Oh, apparently not: "Intentional sexual touching of a young person under 13 is an absolute offence. This means there can be no defence in such a case that it was believed the person was over 16."

This is the kind of stuff I was referring to when I said that posters had "cited law that seems to imply adult/minor activity". I find it hard to believe that there is no proviso or common-law precedent that exempts children from prosecution under these laws. If the law that Sooz gave is the only relevant law, then that's the law. But it's unclear as to how or why it would apply to childish or adolescent sexual activity.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,corie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

look just because he is 13 dosen't mean he can't be a good dad

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:55 PM

From a work-lifetime involved with the law and the courts, I offer you two truisms:

1. Laws are very often not clear in their provisions, their coverage, despite what may have been the unspoken intentions of the legislators.

and

2. There are many, many, many situations which do constitute crimes that are never charged, even when the facts are clear: Prosecutors have better things to do; their workload is too heavy as it is; prosecutors are afraid of political backlash if they misjudge the climate of opinion in their bailiwick; prosecutors are often as nonplussed about the applicability of statutes as the rest of us, and so do nothing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:37 PM

and in this case, who would've touched who first?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:38 PM

Interesting titbit in todays papers , that TWO other lads have said THEY could be the father ! Apparently the girl's parents didnt think there was anything wrong wrong with several lads spending nights in her bedroom ! The Mind Boggles !!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:43 PM

Hmmmm. Kendall, is 'screwing around' on one's marriage "against the law"? Against one's vow, no question, but does the magistrate care?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:51 PM

Maybe only if there were kids involved, Jacqui, esp. if the screwer were preggers by their partner or screwee...then there would be a case of paternity for the courts, right?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 07:58 PM

Kat:

then there would be a case of paternity for the courts, right?

A matter "for the courts", presumably; not necessarily "against the law", which was the question. That is, a civil controversy, not criminal.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: kendall
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 08:56 PM

The location is important here. In most US states, adultery is a civil offense. Grounds for divorce. But, in Muslim countries it can mean a death sentence for a woman.
In Maine, the age of consent is 16. If the girl is under14 it is carnal knowledge, and if she is between 14 and 16 it is statutory rape if the male is over 18.

You must have heard that Mickey Mouse sued Minnie for divorce? The judge said, "I'm sorry Mickey, but you can't divorce Minnie just because she's crazy." Mickey said
"I didn't say she is crazy, I said she's fucking Goofy."

A little humor! (Yeah, damn little.)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:24 PM

"The location is important here. In most US states, adultery is a civil offense." Kendall

Is that true generally? That brings up an image of the police storming up the stairs at an assignation.

Can a person turn in an errant spouse? I just can't get my head around that concept.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 10:14 PM

Wow. Here is some information dealing with the legalities of adultery/ Evidently Utah, Florida and Illinois mandate prison sentences of 1, 2, and 5 years respectively! Who'd a thunk it.

Here

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:39 AM

"The location is important here. In most US states, adultery is a civil offense." Kendall

Is that true generally? That brings up an image of the police storming up the stairs at an assignation."

Not for a civil offence, Ebbie, the police's interest is only in criminal offences surely? Unless, of course, the US legal system differs in this?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:00 AM

Those laws (in the US anyway) date back to a time when people took marriage vows seriously. As late as the 50s, a divorced woman, in some circles, was ostracized. A straying wife was a pariah.
Times have changed as have sexual mores.

In the 50s and early 60s, couples did not live together before getting married and brides were expected to be virgins.Take a look at the movies and TV programs of the time. They reflect the existing mores if not reality.

These laws may still exist but I would be surprised if anyone has gone to jail recently for infidelity. I am not even sure they go to hell anymore...

Which reminds me - all those people who went to hell for eating meat on Friday - have they been let out? Have they been paid compensation? How does that work? And all those babies in limbo? Now that it doesn't exist, are they homeless?

It's he first day of work after a long and somewhat stressful weekend. Sorry for the thread drift.
M

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:46 AM

Sinsull, if a man was executed for a crime which no longer calls for a death sentence, is he still dead?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:24 AM

Yes, Dave. My question is "Is he still guilty?" lol

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

Such conundrums. Where, oh where, is the mountaintop man? :)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

What exciting lives some Mudcatter have led.
I felt as though I should be sitting in an adjoining room, listening through a wee grille.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

On the Net it's called lurking, Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:25 PM

How many Hail Mary's is that worth?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 02:49 PM

A whole rosary's worth, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:20 PM

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030042_en_2#pt1-pb5-l1g9

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:21 PM

THat's the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (of the UK)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:22 PM

Sexual offences Act 1956 NB see notes about how the new Act is not yet fully in

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM

Meticulously detailed and longwinded as the first Act is, it appears that a woman could get away with practically anything in the UK, since it speaks only of "he", and the same thing is true if "A" is a male up to and including the age of 17 years and 11 1/2 months.

I didn't find anything relating to both participants being under the age of 18.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:01 PM

Well, it is still muddy. The Act in Richard's first link above (1956) explains that the terms "man" and "boy", as well as "girl" and "woman" are interchangeable for the purposes of the act. The implication is that the law applies identically to a "boy" as to a "man", likewise for females. So when the law states that "It is an offence ... for a man to have unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl ... under the age of sixteen", it would seem to indicate that this 12- or 13- or 14-year-old boy could be charged for having "unlawful sexual intercourse with a girl ... under the age of sixteen". The second document (2003), however, specifies that a number of the otherwise pertinent offences are offences (only) if committed by "A person aged 18 or over" ....

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:13 PM

Wait a minute - I missed this, from the 2003 Act:


13 Child sex offences committed by children or young persons (1) A person under 18 commits an offence if he does anything which would be an offence under any of sections 9 to 12 if he were aged 18.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years.


So there it is. Sections 9 to 12 cover pretty well all the usual types of sexual activity - therefore it is an offence for any person under 18 (or over) to have any kind of sexual activity with a person under 16 .... Now we know.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:31 PM

Sorry- I think my eyes must have glazed over just before then.

So, let's see: If a 7 year old boy touches (with sexual intent, of course) a 10 year old girl (possibly at her invitation) the boy will go to prison for up to six months or alternatively he will owe X amount of dollars to the state.

Got it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:54 PM

Yup, you got it ... strange but true, apparently ...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:08 PM

Finding more information about underage sex penalties in the USA - it appears that most states now have statutes on the books that are termed 'Romeo and Juliet' cases, cases where the older minor is not more than four years older than the younger.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 11:37 PM

And presumably there is an age below which a child cannot be held criminally responsible for any type of crime in the UK ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:45 AM

Yes, it's generally considered to be 10 years old although courts may be instructed to consider the maturity of the child in question and the nature of the crime.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:27 AM

The doli incapax rule is this.

A child under the age of 10 (or is it 10 or under? I think it's under 10) is conclusively presumed not to be able to form criminal intent.

A child under the age of 14 (or is it 14 or under?) is presumed not to ahve formed criminal intent unless it is shown that he knew what he was doing is wrong.

As to gender, according to the Interpretation Act, references to one gender include references to all genders unless otherwise required (that is not the exact workding but I'm not looking it up now).

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: meself
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:55 AM

Thanks for the info., Richard. It's all a little clearer now.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:21 PM

This is yet another story to hit the headlines which we will, in time, find out that the whole thing is a was of making money out of the media. It's total crap, I am sure about it... just like the Shannon story. The sick parents are out for what they can get from the mugs in the media.

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:25 PM

See what I mean, take a look at this

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: skipy
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM

& the mugs will pay! But who the hell buys the papers that print this stuff?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:13 PM

pah... What if the DNA results show that Alfie is NOT the father. Do we get to see a would-be papa sob on live television? To add to the sensational aspect of it, Chantelle should be there also, holding her breath.

I can just see it now. Not.

Glad to see that the UK is as insane as the US.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:16 PM

"Publicist Max Clifford, who is representing the Patten's, "

Summarises my views of Max Clifford. Please add to the grammar thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:17 PM

and who the hell is looking out for these children?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: paula t
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:26 PM

Jacqui C,
That's precisely my worry. As I said earlier, If these children had robbed someone their identities would have been protected. If the parents are being paid for their story there is still a case to answer by the media.They should not be allowed to pay to reveal their identity.These children are not mature enough to decide for themselves whether or not to be on TV and in the papers.They are not able to see the effect this "15 minutes of fame " could have on their future life - and their parents don't appear to care.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:09 PM

So right Jacqui and Paula T - WHAT ABOUT THE KIDS........

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:58 PM

In a somewhat related news item, Sarah Palin's daughter, Bristol, has said, that baby Tripp brings her joy but, "I wish it would happen in 10 years so I could have a job and an education and be, like, prepared and have my own house and stuff... I just hope that people learn from my story and, I don't know, prevent teen pregnancy, I guess."

Apparently she also said that abstinence-only education is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:22 AM

Well, she didn't actually say that abstinence is not enough. She said that she wishes that teens would not engage in sex but that expecting abstinence is "totally unrealistic".

I still would like to see the emphasis changed from preventing pregnancy to promoting 'safe sex'.

It is almost a given that a pregnant girl and boy did not practice safe sex. That is what I would like to see the stigma shift to.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:41 AM

Pregnancy rates among under-18s in England and Wales have risen. The under-18 conception rate increased from 40.9 per 1,000 women aged 15 to 17 in 2006 to 41.9 in 2007, according to data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

The Government had pledged to halve teenage pregnancy rates among girls under 18 by half by next year but is widely expected to miss that target. The government has to now prepare to dish out more free council houses and feed more state benefit babies.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:44 PM

And the Octuplets Circus goes on. The "father" wants a paterntiy test. The hospital is suggesting that they can not release the babies to the mother until or if she can prove she has a safe environment for them to live in - not likely. She is supporting the first six with food stamps and disability pay (They by the way are in hiding becuase of death threats). Her Mom is filing for bankruptcy so the three bedroom house may not be available.
And in steps the Master of all psycho-babble, Dr. Phil. Now it's a three ring circus.
Those poor children. None of them will have any semblance of a normal life.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:48 PM

Oh, it gets even better:
From the San Francisco Chronicle:

"Pornographers have made a million-dollar offer to Suleman, plus a year of health insurance for her family, if the mother agrees to star in a hard-core porn video. Vivid Entertainment spokeswoman Jackie Martin said the offer was sent Tuesday by overnight mail to Suleman's home address."


You couldn't make up this stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

What sick shits!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

I don't agree with 13 year olds having babies. In my book they're still children.

When society says that it's OK for children to have children, as we seem to be doing, then I think we've either lost the plot completely or everyone has become groomed by the Corporate Paedeophiles into thinking it's all completely normal.

It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

Agreed, Lizzie. But then what do you do when a 13 year old shows up pregnant? Force her to have an abortion? Force her to give the baby up for adoption? Or allow her to make some choices within the framework of a supportive family and network?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:45 PM

You have to make the best of the situation, I guess, Mary.   


But society needs to open its eyes as to what's happening. Already it's now 'accepted' that kids under 16 are openly having sex. It wasn't like that when I was 16. Yes, there was the occasional incident, there always has been, always will be..but in the main, it didn't happen and it wasn't accepted as being normal.

Nowadays, I hear, over and over..."Oh, but that's what kids are like these days!"

Nope, it's because parents aren't being parents, and kids are saturated with sexual images and information at every turn, but more than those together, it's that society itself has now chosen to accept everything. Somethings are not acceptable.

I would never force anyone to have an abortion, nor to give up their child, but I fear for the child of a child. I'd imagine it more often than not falls to the grandparents to bring the baby up, as their child would find it hard to be responsible for a baby, on a day to day basis I'd imagine.

I just think that children should be children, not mothers or fathers.

Call me old fashioned, whatever, but I do truly think we've lost the plot.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

Lizzie -- I am with you -- but understanding that kids can and will and do have sex far younger than we might be comfortable with -- then SAFE SEX has to be taught--we cannot have children having children.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:23 PM

Nope, we need to re-evaluate what we're doing, what we're telling them. We need, as parents to get this stuff out of kids magazines, off the CDs, out of our TVs. And, we need to make sure we know what schools are telling our children, because believe you me, the video my daughter was shown, at primary school...well, if I'd have shown it to kids off the street, I'd have probably been arrested and labelled a pervert!

Once they get to high school, parents aren't told or involved at all, and it's up to the individual headteacher to decide on what is taught.

Soon, you'll be preaching 'safe sex' to 7 year olds, the rate we're going, and trust me, even 7 year old are WAY too aware of themselves.

Our children have been robbed of their childhoods and we have let those who choose to do it, do it.

13 year olds don't need babies. They need love and affection from their parents, for a start off, then they might not need to seek it elsewhere...but to be honest, it's not that is it. We've reduced love down to 'sex' and 'sex' to be nothing more than a physical act, which has to be tried as soon as possible, because the kids are given the impression by the acres of sex lessons they have to endure, that everyone is at it by the time they're 11.

The world has gone stark raving bonkers.

We had 30 minutes of Mrs. Smallworth sitting on her desk trying to look cool, talking about the birds and the bees...and you know what, not one of my school mates got pregnant, and I went to the roughest school in the area.

We were 14 when we had that lesson. It was the first lesson we ever had about sex. We had it only as girls, and the boys had a male teacher, in another room.   There was lots of talk about love and settling down, getting married etc. Little else, nowt about contraception or things that go bump in the night...Just about what happened, but it was kind of way off in the future...

We looked a little embarrassed, as a class, muffled a few giggles and then got on with our lives.

The way forward is not to keep preaching safe *anything* to younger and younger children, it's for society to wake up to what the hell is happening here..

Our children are being 'groomed' by some damned dodgy people, and no-one seems to care.

Safe Sex for Primary School Children....I can see it happening, I truly can, if we go on the way we're going...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:37 PM

"Safe Sex for Primary School Children"

Well I learned about sex at primary school. The basics of what mummies and daddies do when they love each other and how that makes a baby. So why not about what 'mummies and daddies' do when they love each other and don't want to make babies?

As I said earlier in this thread, some of the lovliest and least embarrassing sex education I had was at second year juniors.

I'm fairly sure we learned about willies and fannies and what went where, but it was such a long time ago, it's tricky to recall it all. Except that it was really lovely and interesting, and just nice.
Like it should be really!

All I remember in strong detail was the nice lady teacher explaining stuff, and us all asking questions, and those anatomical pictures we all drew of nudey men and ladies 'cuddling' in bed!

I know we learned about milk from ladies bosoms, and wombs, and periods and eggs and...

I swear, sex education years *after* that utterly fascinating and shameless introduction, was utter and total shite! Good on my primary school!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:42 PM

The world has gone stark raving bonkers.[about forty years ago ]
Call me old fashioned, whatever, but I do truly think we've lost the plot.
is that a royal we .

meanwhile thousands of people are dying of starvation in Zimbabwe.
the GOVERNMENT of ICELAND has gone bankrupt ,lots of Icelanders have lost their life savings.
in Australia there have been over 100 deaths from bush fires .

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:41 AM

"meanwhile thousands of people are dying of starvation in Zimbabwe.
the GOVERNMENT of ICELAND has gone bankrupt ,lots of Icelanders have lost their life savings.
in Australia there have been over 100 deaths from bush fires . "


...and 10 year olds are having sex.


Sorry Dick, but this is important too.

And Rosie, we were just left to be children at primary school...We didn't have to draw pictures of 'nudey' people...and to be honest, I find it all disturbing.

Did you ever watch that documentary on primary school kids, in Somerset, a few years back now? It was about the sex education they received. It happened over a two week period, where every day they were told something about 'what goes on'...in between these two weeks, they took them on holiday, camping, for a week.

I watched it with my mouth open, I'm afraid...

No gentle introduction at all, the hard, basic facts, the videos, the birth videos, (yup, my daughter had that one too, but we weren't told about that one), very little was left to the imagination, or told in a 'wifty wafty' way..

So, off they trot, on their holipops...and guess what happens...? Yup, the conversation around the campfire is totally sex orientated with the most basic of grammar being used. And then, some of them disappeared into the woods on their own. Of course, the teachers were panicking fit to burst, when they eventually found out...

Geez!

Sorry, but I don't get it. I also don't get why 13 year old are told about oral sex, 'to cut the pregnancy levels'....???? That idea came from the think tank (thinking?) at Exeter University, who came up with the bright idea that if kids did that, then they'd be able to satisfy the normal teenage urges (?) whilst staying safe...(?!?)

Take another look at all this...step back, and imagine what would happen if the paedeophiles got into the education system, what would be one of the main things they'd target?

Hmmmmm...well, it could be bringing in a Sex Educatio Programme that continues to drip, drip, drip, the feeling onto children that sex when you are *very* young happens, that it's acceptable, that *everyone* does it young, because it's oh so normal and that it's great fun and terribly safe, because you just use 'this' or 'that' and then...you can do *whatever* you want!

What you don't preach too much is waiting, saying no, that very young bodies aren't ready or meant to have sex at such an early age, that nature instilled a natural "Oh, Yeuck!" into kids, once upon a time...
nor do you preach about love, waiting for the right person..etc.

I'm not saying that some kids start getting interested earlier than others, but once..that was the unusual, now, it's become entirely normal and adults OK it.

But heck, if you all think it's OK and that what's going on is all fine and dandy, then there's point in me saying anything else...apart from God help our children.

I guess soon we'll have the Teletubbies showing toddlers how to have safe sex!

Yeesh!

And you don't think it's important, Dick???????

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Chalkie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 04:49 AM

It's a shame and a disgrace the behaviour of this age group. I see it all too often here were I live. Parents seem to have allowed public decency and respect to go out with the trash.

The dress sense of some of them is like wearing a sign saying available, half them need a good stout belt wrapped around their ankles.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 05:13 AM

yet in some cultures,for example, Africa ,young girls get married at 13.
do you believe ,that our western values should be imposed on them,or should we accept those African values,in the west .,
or should we accept the Taliban values,and chop off their hands for these sexual acts .
perhaps its the fault of the nature of our society,which is geared towards consumerism,and which treats children as consumers ,treats them as a market to be exploited, and encourages children to mimic the behaviour of adults.,well, you will have to change society first ,before you can stop this kind of thing happening .
some Muslims and Hindus are critical of western values , perhaps they are right, however lookin backwards with rose tinted spectacles is not the answer,I can remember ,in the 1960s,underage sex taking place,I wouldnt be surprised if it hasnt taken place for hundreds of years .

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 05:19 AM

No, Chalkie....what IS a shame and a disgrace is that WE, the adults, have not taken on the fashion industry, the media industry, the music industry, the sex education 'industry' and *demanded* that they back off our children!

What is sooooo wrong is that WE, the adults, the very ones who should be protecting our children have allowed it to happen.

Yes, so many girls now dress like hookers, but they've been raised by parents who brought them Bratz Dolls and let them watch Paris Hilton and the Spice Girls...(and just soooo don't get me going on the Spice Girls) ;0)

The adults have walked away, and if you're surprised that in doing so, their kids are now out of control, lost in a world where they believe sex is all, not love, just sex..and flaunting your body is normal, in the most provocative way from as early an age as you can, then you're NOT opening your eyes as to the reasons behind it all.

Check how many magazines that kids read are owned by pornographers.
Check out what's being talked about in the 'teen' magazines, aimed at 10 years and up. Check out the relatively new 'teen sections' in the book stores and your local libraries.

Look inside....learn...go into the world where the children live..check out a few Myspace pages, (most are all the same), see the constant partying, the booze, the drunkeness that has become almost 'compulsory'...there is very little else on the pages of young people, not because they don't think, but because they're afraid to step out and let others see they do. They have become trapped in a dumbed down, alcohol driven, sex saturated world....

What the hell are they going to teach *their* children...?

WE are the adults, not them. WE are the ones who should be out there complaining, ringing up, asking questions, demanding answers..(I do and so do a few others on here)..but we ALL need to do it, we all need to go back to being our children's protectors, rather than telling them *everything* that can possibly go wrong, or may happen to them, thus absolving us of any responsibility, so we can get on with our lives.

Our children ARE our lives....and that is what so many have forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 06:28 AM

"yet in some cultures,for example, Africa ,young girls get married at 13. do you believe ,that our western values should be imposed on them,or should we accept those African values,in the west .,"

Having been a 13 year old girl myself, I think it's wrong. I also think it's wrong to sexually mutilate young African women.



"I can remember ,in the 1960s,underage sex taking place,I wouldnt be surprised if it hasnt taken place for hundreds of years . "

I mentioned that above.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 06:48 AM

The Captain's correct - underage sex did take place in the 60's, BUT not on the scale it appears to do nowadays.

We had absolutely NO sex-education in school WHATSOEVER. The S-word was unmentionable, taboo. But I knew of only one girl who got pregnant. So is sex-education the answer or part of the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:48 AM

My kids got their sex education at home, from me, very early on. It started when my nearly three year old wanted to know how the new baby got into Mummy's tummy so I explained it to him. The rest of it came naturally over the next few years, particularly since we lived in a flat and they would play out on the local green with their friends. T make sure that they were aware of the need to avoid strangers I explained what a paedophile was and what he might do to my son or daughter. By the time they were ten both kids were well aware of the sexual side of life. Both abstained from sexual activity until they were in their late teens, my daughter telling me off when I mentioned birth control when she, as a sixteen year old, had her first steady boyfriend. SHE told ME that she did not consider that she was old enough for sex and would wait until she was 18.

Conversely, my mother found it too embarrassing to even give me full information on menstruation, which left me in for a nice surprise. I picked up some sexual info from the kids at school, but not enough to really help, was sexually active at 13 and pregnant at 17.

Now, I can only speak from my own experience, but I do think that children need their parents to BE parents and to take on those responsibilities rather than leaving them to schools. I also think that a loving home will give more protection to a child from the sexual mores of the day than will any half baked theory of when or if a child should be taught about sex in schools.

Unfortunately there is no test to be passed before we are allowed to become parents and so you will always have children being born into feckless or self-centered families who have no real idea of how, or no inclination, to make sure that their children are safe.

I agree that big business has played a part in the sexualisation of young children. Parents have also allowed that to happen. They generally hold the purse strings and if they refused to buy the crap that is pushed at children the manufacturers would stop making it. That goes back to how far parents are prepared to BE parents, rather than this 'chum' to their children, or who just let the kids have what they want to keep the peace. Peer pressure is there - kids feel left out if they don't have all the fashionable stuff that others have, but that is where parents again should be coming in and bolstering the self esteem of their children, trying to help them see that it is alright not to go along with the mass.

I can understand the sense in giving children details of places to go when the need is there. Otherwise, where do these kids get their information when they have no-one to confide in and no idea that there might be places that can help them. If that scheme had bee in place in my day maybe my life would have taken a different path. I am happy with where I am and love my kids dearly, but life was a struggle for a long time and, with help and support, might have been totally different.

Teenage mothers have always been there - mostly they were 'swept under the carpet' to avoid the scandal. Nowadays the tabloids love to play up this kind of thing as it sells papers.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

Thanks jacqui, you have put very eloquently the direction my thinking was going.

My wife (who is not an aging hippie like me, but a very modern 33-year-old) takes the same view, and believes also that the liberalisation of peoples' attitudes to under-age and schoolgirl pregnancy - the removal of the stigma which used to attach to 'that kind of girl' - has gone a long way towards the huge rise in such pregnancies.

We knew, as teenagers in the late 50's and 60's, that shagging produced babies - we didn't need teachers to tell us about that. And condoms (or 'Johnnies' - the word condom hadn't been invented for the squeamish at that time!) were very difficult to come by (pun intended!), no supermarkets stocking them on the shelves, it was a case of having the courage to ask the barber for some. We also knew that if a girl got pregnant, all hell would break loose and we'd be in for a very tough time indeed - no hand-outs, no pats on the head and "there, there, it's not your fault", no council-houses paid for by the tax-payer - just crap heaped on you from a very great height.

Yet there were far fewer teenage pregnacies. Food for thought.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:13 AM

And back then, I could spel 'pregnancies'. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:19 AM

Brilliant post, jacqui.

I agree with so very much in there. My kids too learnt from me, first. I was left with the dilemma of not actually wanting my daughter to see the school video, as I found it disturbing, but I knew that all the other kids would see it and stories would abound in the playground, so I watched it with her, quietly, at home, and put some humour into it, as well as love...She still squirmed, and I silently fumed, feeling that I was being made to do this against my will, but at least she knew what was coming the next day.

She found it all deeply intrusive, particularly having boys there, when all the personal details of women's bodies were being discussed, and the boys too looked deeply uncomfortable when their bodies were discussed. The sexual behaviour and the things that now go on, get said and done at school disturb me greatly, and I'm talking about what the kids say to one another, how they behave towards one another.
My young lad was out of school by 7, so he never had to endure it all, and has grown up to be relaxed and calm. I think it freaks many kids out to be honest, particularly the way it is an on-going 'process' for so many years...I'd use the word 'indoctrinisation' but I know many won't agree with me.

And yes, Pester Power, another thing brought in by the Corporate B*stards, has a great deal to answer for, as have parents who give in to it all the time. The sad thing is that nothing means anything to the children. They get what they want, when they want it, then, within days or weeks they're bored with it and trying to keep up with the next 'new' thing that everyone else has. Very sad. There's no excitement of longing for something, saving up, hoping at birthdays and Christmas...It's just there, all the time, same as 'sex' is, just another 'thing' to have when you want it, instant gratification, with absolutely no magic or meaning.

And yes, Backwoodsman...

"We had absolutely NO sex-education in school WHATSOEVER. The S-word was unmentionable, taboo. But I knew of only one girl who got pregnant. So is sex-education the answer or part of the problem?"

...I believe very much that 'sex education' IS a huge part of the problem. There is also, as of last time I enquired, no National Curruculum for it, which means it's left entirely to the discretion of each headteacher. One headteacher in North Devon, went to prison for paedeophile offences not long ago.

I rest my case.

I also have this theory, which I guess many will regard as kind of weird, about the AIDS epidemic.   It opened up the gates for those with 'other agendas' to start telling kids *everything* about sex, on a national scale.

Sorry, but I've known too many dodgy people linked to schools to sit back and feel comfortable. One of my daughter's previous teachers also now serving time for having paedeophile details on his computer, onto which he loaded photos of the young girls in his care, thankfully *not* my child. He had a camera rigged up in his classroom, just under the shelves, where he kept many things. He'd always ask the young girls who wore skirts to reach things down for him...and "Click!"

I guess he thought it was his own form of sex education.

Nothing can replace kind and loving parents, at the end of the day, who have time and space for their children.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:25 AM

I wasn't suggesting that there's anything 'wrong' (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) with the teachers, Lizzie - just that kids are getting sex rammed down their throats (another pun intended) by schools, and that in itself lends an element of 'acceptibility' or 'decency' to situations which were completely unacceptable forty or fifty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:52 AM

My maternal grandmother never explained sex to my mother. My mother fell pregnant at eighteen because (by her own confession) she was very niave about sex and didn't really know about contraception.
Like her mother before her, my mother never mentioned anything to do with sex to me either! In fact she was quite the prude really - maybe because of her own upbringing.

Instead I had really good, interesting and gentle introduction to sex education as a child which was in no way disturbing to either me or my peers. Other people finding the notion of children drawing gentle pictures of mummies and daddies cuddling in bed disturbing, says more to me about their own feelings about sex being a 'taboo' matter, than anything. Of course, because I was actually there, I don't have to imagine how dreadful it might have been like. I know they were lovely lessons nd not at all weird or wrong, and the teaching of the subject matter was done with warmth, gentleness and sensitivity.

Despite a complete absence of parental discussions about sex, I knew enough about sex and pregnancy from school, that by the time I reached a point where I became sexually active, I was informed enough not to fall pregnant. I'm more than glad the school system saw fit to arm me with the essential information that my parents did not discuss!
Without schools sex education all I would have had would have been schoolground rumour.

Not all parents want to talk about sex, and no amount of arguing that they SHOULD be doing so, will alter the fact that many DON'T and WON'T.
I believe that schools have a responsibility to young people, to ENSURE that they recieve essential information in an open and healthy fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Chalkie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:55 AM

Well said Lizzie Cornish 1. You are so right. Sadly young girls are also aware if they have a child they qualify for a free council house. Their dream of their own place away from mum and dad and holding endless parties soon fades after they realise a string of guys are only using them. These are the parents of today who set the examples. Very few young mums today work, it pays them to sit at home. My late wife got her mum to care for our children as we both held down full time jobs. Having two kids today has become a profession. Government at fault here.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:04 AM

Having children is a privilege and not a right.
It is a privilege much abused.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:07 AM

There is a National Curriculum for Sex and Relationships Education but it is only statuatary at Key Stages 3 and 4. There is also a National Accreditation for teachers wishing to qualify to teach it. Unfortunately not all schools do as much as they could.
One of the problems is uninformed people who think that Sex and Relationships Education is all about teaching primary age children about condoms.
Another, much more worrying problem is that most young girls see sex as something that is done to them and not even something to be enjoyed.
More later.....

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

Teenagers having babies have never worked so they don't know the feeling of earning their own money and the satisfaction it gives.

At the moment I'm a stay at home mum but we have the income for me to do so, and the youngest 2 are only 5 months old. I fully intend on going back to work part time as soon as they are in nursery and then full time when they are all at school. Having said that I'm not a teen mum and have no intention of living on government handouts.

I can understand parents being unsettled or embarrassed about talking about sex and precautions with their children, i'm not sure how I will feel about discussing the subject with mine but I would hope that I will answer their questions when they ask them.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:14 AM

Sex education in a Catholic high school in the 60s consisted of one hour for seniors. They showed us a film made circa 1940 with a couple holding hands, kissing at the altar and then with a baby. There was no suggestion of how the baby got there. We were supposed to think it happened if you were married, I guess.
I had learned the facts of life from a friend whose liberal mother had explained the process to her - "the lady goes to the hospital and the man pees in her and the baby comes out."
One college friend nearly had a nervous breakdown when someone told her she was not a virgin. Her boyfriend had convinced her that they were not having sex. The pregnancy proved otherwise. Unbelievable!
I talked to my son openly about sex. He was free to come to me with questions. I remember a very odd discussion about masturbation.
I have mixed emotions about sex education. I believe that too much of it is too much information and not age appropriate. I agree - why should a child be told about oral or anal sex? I don't get it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:22 AM

"One of the problems is uninformed people who think that Sex and Relationships Education is all about teaching primary age children about condoms"

Sooz, with all due respect, the whole problem is that, in an age where sex education is readily available, on the internet, in books and given in apparently large dollops in schools, with people employed specifically for that purpose, considerably more teenage girls are getting pregnant than when there was no sex education, other than from parents and peers, at all (like when we were at school).

I didn't need a teacher to teach me the simple equation that unprotected sex (or 'Bareback' as it was called - 'unprotected sex' was another expression that hadn't been invented yet!) = BABY, and I doubt you did either. Nor do I believe that the vast majority of young people need a teacher to tell them today. What they need is to be taught that it's unacceptable - like we were - by their parents and peers.

No doubt we will continue our deliberations, accompanied by light-hearted banter, over a couple of non-alcoholic drinks, between Bram's sets tonight! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Chalkie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:49 AM

No sex education in my growing up years, if two people kissed on television in our house, my dad had the set turned off !

We learned at street level. Girls were not as liberal years ago, if you "went the whole way" it was on a bus to the depot.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM

"I wasn't suggesting that there's anything 'wrong' (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) with the teachers, Lizzie - just that kids are getting sex rammed down their throats (another pun intended) by schools, and that in itself lends an element of 'acceptibility' or 'decency' to situations which were completely unacceptable forty or fifty years ago."

Oh yes, I realised that completely, Backwoodsman, I just went off at a tangent, as ever. :0)

"Other people finding the notion of children drawing gentle pictures of mummies and daddies cuddling in bed disturbing, says more to me about their own feelings about sex being a 'taboo' matter, than anything. Of course, because I was actually there, I don't have to imagine how dreadful it might have been like. I know they were lovely lessons nd not at all weird or wrong, and the teaching of the subject matter was done with warmth, gentleness and sensitivity."

I'm glad you felt that way, Rosie. It's just that as an older person, whose teachers would never ever have even entertained that idea, let alone our parents, I still find it doesn't fit into my mind.
Sex isn't taboo in my book, unless you're a child. By all means talk openly about it, in the warmth and safety of the home, but to introduce it into schools at an earlier and earlier age, for more and more years, disturbs me.

We all just got on with it. We had a childhood, some had happy ones, some didn't, as is still the case today, but sure as heck, our minds weren't filled with sex when we were at primary school, we were far too busy reading Janet and John books, and in those days, John wasn't shagging Janet behind the bike shed, with his correctly applied condom on...

Ho hum....

"Having children is a privilege and not a right.
It is a privilege much abused."

Absolutely, John. And I get incensed at parents who scream at their kids and who obviously don't give a tinker's cuss for them and see them as an 'intrusion' into their lifestyle, expecting everyone else to bring them up, so they can carry on as they always have done. There are far too many parents like that today.

Bringing a child into the world is a huge responsibility and one we have a choice over nowadays. I'll always remember that midwife saying to us, on our 'tour' of the maternity unit, just prior to our babies being born..."Never forget ladies, you are giving birth to an adult" :0) Well, you had to see the funny side there, the "WHAAAAAAT! A 7lb er will do me just fine thank you, Mrs!"...but she was right, babies are only babies for such a short time, likewise childhood rushes past, at an ever increasing rate these days, sadly..and to miss oodles of those days is the saddest thing.

We struggled for years because I chose to stay home with my kids. I bought clothes from Oxfam for them many a time, never minded, the clothes were great, and cheap..and a good wash was all they ever needed..We didn't have fancy this and that, or posh holidays..but I had my kids around me and that's what mattered.

Motherhood is far more important than a career..well, it's a career in itself, but it's one that has been so terribly devalued, and the ones to have suffered have been the children.

Nowadays, many have no choice *but* to return to work, in order to pay the ludicrous bills, let alone anything else. But all the things that people are told 'matter' and that you 'must have' don't matter at all. Your kids matter, and they're just as happy on a camping holiday or in a caravan, as they'd be in the poshest hotel. At least, with the tent holiday, they get to have you around far more during the rest of the year...during their childhood.

Woops! Wasn't going to say anymore.. Shhhhhhh! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM

You bring up an interesting and probably non-PC point, Lizzie. Mothers did not work when I was a child unless they absolutely had to. With less supervision and time spent with loving adults (no, the day care lady does not count), children naturally experiment more and seek affection more.
I wonder what the correlation is between teen pregnancy, working Moms, and parents absent emotionally.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 10:46 AM

Yup, you're not allowed to be proud to be a Mum anymore. And if you *choose* to be a full time Mum, then you're considered very odd, and almost seen as 'not doing your bit for society' when of course, the exact opposite is true.

Women were sold a dream. One where they could have it all. It was sold to them by the men-hating feminists who wanted all women to believe that they were not just equal, but *better* than men, and that they could achieve all the things a man could and more.

Of course we can. But NOT when there are children too, because *something* has to give, and in my opinion, that's been the children, for a couple of decades now too.

I'm not frightened to stand up to feminists, and argue that they were wrong. I think many of them now realise they were anyway. It's NOT right to let your child be brought up by complete strangers. I know these days some have no other choice, because of how expensive life has become, but many do, and they choose to go back to work for all the wrong reasons.

Motherhood is the most important job in the world, because we are raising the next generation...and at present, the 'generations' aren't doing at all well, mainly because someone's 'stolen' their mothers.

And of course, you will never get that time back with your children.

Harry Chapin's 'The Cats in the Cradle' comes to mind....in an age where so many kids seem to dislike their parents...or perhaps, not even know them..

Harry...and a song for children everywhere..

By the way, when I have to fill in forms and they say 'Occupation' I always put down 'Mother'...I was asked verbally once what my occupation was, and I told the woman concerned. "We don't have a box for Motherhood' she said, "What job do you do?" ......."I'm a mother', she looked at me squiffy.

These days I work. I still put 'Mother'. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM

My daughter has a wonderful row with her sociology lecturer on one occasion who insisted women could now do anything they wanted, but couldn't accept my daughter's agreement that they could, and her choice would be to be a full-time mother when she had children.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM

Just in case that is misinterpreted, my daughter was not arguing to join the 15-year-old girl in this story; rather against the idea that the only validation of a life is the paid work you carry out.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:32 AM

My sister-in-law did without for years so that she could be home with her children. It is a valid choice. And financially too many women do not have the motherhood option open to them - not because they insist on having the luxuries but just to keep food on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:50 AM

Sheesh I agree, of course, with much of what has been written here: I, too, want children kept safe and nurtured; I, too, think that our culture aggressivley pushes a point of view onto our children that is disturbing at best, totally dysfunctional at worst; I, too, think that a parent - it does not have to be the mum - staying home with the children in their formative years is, generally speaking, the far better option - if there is an option; I, too, wonder where today's climate is leading the children.

But. What is, is. Wringing our hands over other people's children - somehow we all raise our own children correctly - huh? is nothing new. And some of this handwringing is not only wasted effort but is factually inaccurate. The rate of teen pregnancy in America has steadily declined at least since 1990 (Check it out). Children are better informed today and far more, imo, are not miserably alone in their questions and fears. Sex education is valuable.   

There may be/have been "man-hating feminists" - I don't know any.

"Have children is a privilege, not a right" Huh? Is this China? As long as one's body is equipped to have children, having children is a right.

That said, I wouldn't be a child today in any man's world. But life goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 11:55 AM

Easy answer unless prospective parents reach the required income range they should be sterilised now that would cut the population and reduce the risk of teenage pregnancy.

*grabs coat and leaves

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

Megan, I'm puzzzled - if you have a coat to wear, why do you need leaves?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:03 PM

Teen pregnancy in parts of the UK is way up. Wonder why?

Megan - CELLAR!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Megan L
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

Hey its draughty here we need all the protection we can get but we dont have trees :)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Chalkie
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:57 PM

A lot of mothers do not go back to full time employment in the UK. It simply doesn't pay them. A lot around here remain on sickness benefit and onto D.L.A.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:10 PM

Too true Chalkie.

I saw this when I was raising my kids on my own in the early to mid seventies. There were single mothers of teenage children, still living on welfare and I really couldn't stand the idea of that being my future. Went back to college while the kids were at school, got the O and A levels that I didn't get at school and got through teacher training. Couldn't get a job as a teacher (too many English teachers around at the time) but landed the job that I stayed in for about 25 years until I left to come to the USA.

It is hard work to remake your life and, luckily for me, at the time I was able to get grants to support myself and the children while I was doing teacher training. I also worked a few evenings a week in a pub to make a little extra. I was also lucky that, at that time, I had some supportive friends who helped with childcare - I couldn't have afforded to pay anyone on the occasions that it was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:55 PM

""Having children is a privilege and not a right."

As a matter of fact, it is a right, except in China. Until you can get the laws changed, so that the unprivileged will be subject to legal sanction ...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:00 PM

There may be/have been "man-hating feminists" - I don't know any.

Thank you, Ebbie. Last I knew I didn't actually hate any men with the possible exception of the shrub, but I don't think I even hate him, just would like some instant karma to descend on him, very soon.:-)

This is such an old,old struggle...the working mom. I was supported by the state when I had two little children and went to school for a year for my EMT certificate. When I went to work, the state paid my babysitter for the first three months; then I was on my own. Without help from family and friends I would not have made it and staying home was NOT an option.

Then, a few years later, after a second marriage was over with, I was a single mom with three young ones; I had help from the state for about three months while I looked for a decent job.

Off and on, from then on, I was working because we could not make it otherwise. Then, even when Rog and I got married, I had to work. When Rog and I moved East, I told him I had to stay home with the kids for a couple of years, at least, as they and I were leaving all that we had known in our lives, family, place, etc. and we agreed they would need me at home, esp. as he travelled about 90% of the time.

When they were a little older and we moved to a small town which was safe and everything was close by, I went to work part-time. They were in school all day and I was home when they got home or shortly after. For the rest of their time at home, I was there most of the time, working only part time and not enough in the most recent past years, say fifteen, to get disability now, which we sure could use. Personally, I think mothers should get work credits and be eligible for social security etc. Hell, I even think they should be PAID, and I don't mean welfare wages which are restricted and watched like a hawk, I mean a living wage no strings attached except to be there for one's kids.

There's an interesting discussion about all of that in THIS BLOG.

I feel strongly about kids needing their parents to be as present as possible in their first six years. Experts say a child needs THREE adults on whom they can rely for everything when they are little..usually parents and one grandparent, at least. All three of my grandsons have had this and it shows in their confidence, etc. But it would not have happened without grandparents and determined parents.

If I had little ones, now, I'd do everything I could to be at home with throughout their childhood, including when they start school. If I not been there for my kids as their advocate with the schools and teachers, their lives would have been much different.

There are LOTS of cracks for folks to fall, through, esp. the most vulnerable...our children and our elders. Our society treats both like a commodities and the elders like something to be flung on the dung heap. We have to be there for them as much as possible and demand changes in our society, positive changes. In the meantime...stay home if you are able!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 08:17 PM

One correction: I was not as much of an advocate for my son, my first child, when he was in high school as I was for his sisters. I *think* I'd learned more by the time they were that old. I did advocate for him but not as ably as later on.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:12 AM

Some facts:
The majority of 15 year olds are not sexually active.
Most are far more responsible about sex than their parents were.
Many of those who do become pregnant are following their mothers example.
Many parents do not understand the need to develop "family life" so that their children can grow up in a fulfilling and nurturing environment and do not find it necessary to roam the streets from an early age.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 04:27 AM

Yep. It's back to the 'standards' thing isn't it?
Nothing to do with schools or teachers failing kids (and IMHO they aren't), but everything to do with parents and wider society failing them.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:01 AM

Spot on Sooz and Backwoodsman.

In a prefect world there might be more emphasis on life skills such as parenting in the school curriculum. If we could try and get to those kids whose home lives leave a lot to be desired and show them that there is a better way to live, maybe their own children might stand more of a chance.

A lot of these kids have no self esteem and, from my own experience, that wasn't helped by some of the teachers, who were downright bullies to the more vulnerable at school. There were some very good teachers who I remember with affection to this day, but I think that teachers need to be trained to notice those who are drowning and to make an effort to pull them back up. There are almost always pointers to those kids.

All this of course, needs more resources than most schools have right now, with what seems to be a concentration on results, that does not allow for these kids to be noticed and helped. Something's wrong somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 07:50 PM

I think Sooz is right -- the majority of young teenagers are not having sex. BUT I still claim that ALL teenagers should be taught safe sex so that if they 'choose' to have sex thy will not get pregnant. I swear to God when I first had sex I thought babies came out of your navel........ it was that bad......(remembering I am very old)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sooz
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:25 AM

Quite right - along with teaching them how to develop relationships and to understand the facts which will enable them to make appropriate choices for themselves in all aspects of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:11 AM

Absolutely -- you said it.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Abby J
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:45 AM

I'm definitely in agreement with those here who think that there is a place for sex education, in the context of also learning about relationships, health issues, and maybe even parenting skills. Not 'here's how to have sex - now you go and try for yourself' but 'if you are going to have sex then take these steps to keep yourself safe from disease and pregnancy'.

I do believe that the predominant responsibility lies with the parents, but that for a well brought up child of caring sensitive parents, nothing that gets taught in school is likely to upset a child too much - if they are confused or distressed by anything that they are told then I'd hope that in a supportive family situation they'd be able to go and ask mum/dad/granny for more info and clarification, and would choose to do so. I think there is a parental responsibility to help your child cope with the things that they come up against in daily life and to be realistic about it. I am not convinced that a head in the sand 'but I don't want my child to encounter sex yet so nobody should be allowed to mention it to them' is going to cut it.

A personal example... or confession if you like. I'm in my early 30's. Went to school in the 1980's and was shown a video and given a talk first at the age of 9 (girls only) which mainly focussed on periods, and later had a lesson or two in mixed classes at secondary school that focussed more on sex & contraception. Plus at that time there was a lot of publicity about AIDS so loads of adverts for safe sex & condoms etc. None of this was news to me! I had open, liberal parents who had discussed sex with me from a pretty early age, and I was fairly interested in the whole thing from the age of about 10 or 11 onwards. Had a boyfriend at 11 where nothing progressed beyond kissing although we did talk in very general, titillated terms about what we might be able to do when we were older. At that point I hit a growth spurt vertically but not horizontally and spent the next 4 years unable to believe that any boy would want to go near a beanpole like me, no matter how much I might want them to. Did in fact lose my virginity at 15 to a somewhat older guy in a holiday one night stand situation (and yes we used a condom, at my firm instigation, with no argument from him) which served to satisfy much of my adolescent curiosity. Frankly, the only thing that made me wait til I was 15 was lack of a willing partner. I felt grown up enough to know what I wanted and was certainly adamant that I did want sex but didn't want a baby or a disease of any sort. I suspect, looking back, that had I been the kind of girl that boys fancied I might well have been sexually active a good couple of years younger than I was.
That said, I know plenty of people who just weren't interested until they hit their late teens - but who had access to all the same info from school etc that I did.

My theory is simply that different people mature at different rates, and that 'age of consent = 16' (or whatever) is a bit of an arbitrary choice. The important thing surely is for all young people to be making *informed* choices. I strongly believe that no age is too young to expect to take responsibility for your own choices & actions, and that it is a parent's job (hopefully with the assistance of the education system) to nurture that from day 1. The problems seem to arise when the child isn't helped to learn how to do that. And if parents are not doing it (which sadly plenty don't seem to) then it falls to schools, and realistically they can only do so much, even when they try.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:56 AM

Well put Abby.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Abby J
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:00 AM

Thanks Jacqui.

A further thought. There's been a lot of talk on here about the fact that in 'earlier' times, pre-school-based-sex-education and pre-the-current-amount-of-sex-obsession-in-the-media-and-popular-youth-culture, children and young teens were often not as aware of such things as they are now and that this was a good thing.

I'd fully agree that prepubescent girls in lipstick and bikinis is not something I am comfortable with and if I ever have a daughter I hope to make a stand against pester power should she want to dress that way. BUT from puberty onwards I don't think that sexual curiosity is ANYTHING new.

This being a folk music site, you don't have to look very far to find old & traditional songs on the subject of young people getting experimental. At various points in the past, society and in particular the church have frowned on sex out of wedlock, stigmatised any children born that way, and made (or tried to make) people (and especially young people) believe that wanting sex is sinful, dirty & wrong. To a certain extent that probably worked in reducing the number of people who did it, but a lot of the time it just means that it happened in secret, so looking back now we might think it didn't happen when in fact we just had no record of it. Plus it undoubtedly made quite a lot of people miserable as they struggled to balance what they felt and what society wanted of them. I struggle to believe that a 13 yr old dad and 15 yr old mum have never happened before. Probably quite often. But the whole thing was more likely then to be kept hidden, not smeared all over the daily papers.

I'm not saying that the world we live in today is perfect or that we shouldn't bother to try and change things for the better. But let's not kid ourselves that what we had before was perfect either.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:25 AM

Spot on Abby J.

And on the theme of young unmarried pregnancies in folk song (thinking right now of that most telling line in Blacksmith that runs "A Blacksmith courted me, nine months and better...") let's not forget all those fantastic euphemistic 'fairy' lovers and 'changling' stories too...!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,keith a
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 08:42 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:21 AM

I post too soon keith a ¬ THIS is 200

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:22 AM

BUGGER ! AND I douuble checked - It STILL said 199 !!

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 09:04 PM

Well state Abby.......

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 06:29 AM

I thought the centenarian post addicts stayed away from serious threads?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:43 AM

A 14 year old girl just divorced her 17 year old husband .under Israeli law it is ok for a 14 year old girl to marry [and have sex], providing her husband,is not more than three years older than her .

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:18 AM

So just when did the 14 year old marry? Married and divorced the same year?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM

I don't understand how people find such conflicting data. All I could find regarding legal marriageable age in Israel is in the order of these two sites. Oh, I also found articles that said that women in Israel are trying to get the legal age for girls raised even higher.

"Currently, 17 is the legal limit, without a special court order, and about 1,700 girls marry at this age annually. Each year there are around 200 known cases of girls aged 16 or younger getting married. More underage incidents probably occur but never reach the public domain, the Working Group and social workers said. (The Working Group is a large umbrella coalition of many organisations and individuals, including non-governmental organizations, lawyers, shelter administrators and social workers).

"According to these experts, what appears to be happening is that girls as young as 14 or 15 are married off, but their matrimony is only legally registered after they turn 17.

"The police do not enforce the existing laws, the Working Group charged, but two representatives from the Israeli Police Youth Division told a Knesset (parliament) panel on 20 November that generally they do not have enough leads to catch the criminals. Two cases have been presented to the state prosecutor's office in recent years, they reported.

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20071126105538939


"Marriage Age: minimum age is 17 for females under Marriage Age Law 1950 and as determined by personal status law applicable to prospective grooms (18 years under OLFR); scope for judicial discretion (granted to Civil Courts) if wife in underage marriage is pregnant or child has been born (without a minimum age) or for ?special circumstances? (specified by case law) from age of 16 for females; penal sanctions of imprisonment and/or fine for non-compliance for husband, person arranging the marriage, and person officiating, though law does not invalidate underage marriages"

http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/legal/israel.htm

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: GUEST,Bob
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:11 AM

That young guy Alfie Patten, reported to have become a parent at the age of 13, did not father a baby.

A DNA test has since shown this is not the case and it can now be reported that another boy aged 15, who lives on the same estate as Chantelle in Eastbourne, is in fact the father of baby Maisie.

The result can be revealed after East Sussex County Council failed in an attempt to ban reports of the case.

The story called for better sex education in England, which has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in western Europe. A lot of young women plan these pregnancies as they get a present of a house and and a nice benefit cheque each week. It's now considered a profession here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:32 AM

So can a male hire themselves out to stud?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:48 AM

A lot of young women plan these pregnancies as they get a present of a house and and a nice benefit cheque each week. It's now considered a profession here in the UK.

More urban mythology propagated by our good friends of the Fourth Estate.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 May 09 - 05:52 AM

I think our friend GuestBob surfed on in on the wave of the BNP thread, and decided to spread a little Daily Mail-style joy around the place while he was here.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 09 - 06:19 AM

Never let facts get in the way of selling newspapers! - or in flogging the old myths

'There is little evidence to support the common belief that teenage mothers become pregnant to get benefits, welfare, and council housing. Most knew little about housing or financial aid before they got pregnant and what they thought they knew often turned out to be wrong......
Few of them expected to end up as lone parents, in council housing or dependent on social security benefits'

'Few of them had considered termination of pregnancy. However, continuing with the pregnancy was often not so much a decision as an acceptance of what had happened, reflecting the sense of fatalism which characterised much of their subsequent behaviour.'

From -
Teenage Mothers Decisions and Outcomes
examines: the factors surrounding the decision to continue with the pregnancy; the extent to which housing and support played an important part in this decision; the young person's awareness and use of benefits; the housing and household changes made or considered throughout the pregnancy and after the birth of the baby; the young person's perception of their housing options at different times; and the sources and relative importance of support in these decisions

As well as better sex education, which is obviously not a factor in these uninformed/misinformed 'choices', the report concluded 'romantic views of life as a teenage mother should be dispelled by those who have had the experience of seeing their relationships hit the rocks and have been left 'holding the baby''


If it wasn't for people like our anonymous 'guests' (many of whom are actually members I would guess) it might be possible to have an objective discussion on the effects of poverty, poor educational achievement, and deprivation on some, but by no means all, young women's attititude in 'planning' an early pregnancy in the absence of what they see as any realistic opportunities for work or independence (in the above study nearly one third of the teenagers were unemployed when they became pregnant)

as one young mum in the above report stated....

'They make it sound like the council put you in palaces, but they don't... Who'd want to get pregnant for the sake of being put in a council flat?'

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 May 09 - 06:23 AM

I'm fascinated by what Bob thinks "a profession" is. Doctor, lawyer, even priest, they all pay a bit better than single parent benefits...

To be fair, however, there are some apparently single local young women who do live on benefits in council flats with young children, and teh poor things apparently cannot afford elocution lessons...

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 May 09 - 08:00 AM

Are there no prisons? Are here no workhouses?

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 19 May 09 - 08:43 AM

I wonder how much money they have made out of the whole thing?

sal

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Emma B
Date: 19 May 09 - 09:16 AM

Lots of claims have been made for the casual link between teenage pregnancy and welfare benefits however - lets consider some facts as well as opinions based on more evidence than 'Scrounger' headlines.

Denmark pays out higher benefits even than Britain, at £5,116 a year but single mothers make up only 2.9 per cent of households.(2006 figures),

The United States however has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world.

This despite according to figures compiled from Virginian state officials last year, a girl with a baby could qualify for slightly more than $10,000 a year in child support, welfare and food stamps, and other benefits also may be available.
But $10,000 is only about half the income needed to be self-sufficient locally, according to the state.
It was also pointed out that governmental assistance programs generally do not last more than five years, since they were intended to help people in tough times, not to support families long-term.

Valerie Hicks. the director of Kidz Health 2020 a group working in a deprived Cleveland neighbourhood with a high rate of unmarried teen pregnancies observed

'It almost has become a rite of passage. If your signal into adulthood is not your acquisition of an education or the acquisition of a job, then the signal of your transition into adulthood may become the baby.'

A spokesman for the Tories Philip Hammond said:
"We have to be careful with this claim of a causal link.
When we are giving benefit to the single mother, we are not giving it to her, it's to the child. if you want to end child poverty, then you have to give benefit."


Some facts -

There are 1.8 million one-parent families in Britain and they care for nearly 3 million children. About nine out of ten lone parents are women. The median age for a lone parent is 35,
AND
at any one time only 3 per cent of lone mothers are teenagers

The belief held in some circles that teenagers only get pregnant to get a council house is not backed by facts.
Seven out of ten 15 and 16 year old mothers, and around half of 17 and 18-year-old mothers, stay in the family home (figures from the YWCA)

Forty two per cent of all poor children live in one parent families. One third (33 per cent) of one parent families live on gross incomes of £200 a week or less. This compares with 3 per cent of married couples, and 10 per cent of cohabiting couples (Gingerbread figures from end 2007)

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 May 09 - 01:52 PM

The old saying needs updating:

It's a wise child that knows its own offspring.

Subject: RE: BS: 13 year old dad-15 year old mum
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 20 May 09 - 11:25 PM

I lived in a council house for 7 years til I left home -- my mother lived there those 7 years and a subsequent 9 years before she died. Council housing saved us from living in a slum (2 up, 2 down and an outside loo .... the Brits will know the reference). We considered the council house heaven on earth and it did not come lightly or easily. We had to fight to get it. I have never heard of a young mum just being moved into a council house because she is pregnant. Many council flats are hideous -- they may fob these off on the young pregnant girls. Oops - no more council houses - I forgot. So one of the best thing about the British system has gone away. One can probably find isolated instances of abuse but the British decided (as is reflected in their health system) that they wouldn't pour millions into bureaucracy to check that a nickel is never spent in error. Give me a break -- SOME PEOPLE NEED A BREAK........if you are eating and housed and paying your bills, what the hell do you care........