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BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day

Peter T. 18 Feb 09 - 09:51 AM
Wesley S 18 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM
Bill D 18 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM
gnu 18 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,heric 18 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM
robomatic 18 Feb 09 - 11:03 AM
Rapparee 18 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 18 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM
Rapparee 18 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM
MMario 18 Feb 09 - 11:28 AM
Donuel 18 Feb 09 - 11:56 AM
Ebbie 18 Feb 09 - 12:00 PM
DannyC 18 Feb 09 - 12:21 PM
Ebbie 18 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM
Little Hawk 18 Feb 09 - 02:30 PM
Bill D 18 Feb 09 - 05:27 PM
gnu 18 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM
Peace 18 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM
Little Hawk 18 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM
Peace 18 Feb 09 - 06:21 PM
gnu 18 Feb 09 - 06:36 PM
Peace 18 Feb 09 - 06:37 PM
gnu 18 Feb 09 - 06:39 PM
gnu 18 Feb 09 - 06:42 PM
Little Hawk 18 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM
Jeri 18 Feb 09 - 07:11 PM
heric 18 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM
Rapparee 18 Feb 09 - 07:46 PM
Peace 18 Feb 09 - 07:56 PM
Beer 18 Feb 09 - 08:09 PM
Lonesome EJ 18 Feb 09 - 08:54 PM
Peter T. 18 Feb 09 - 09:28 PM
Rapparee 18 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM
Beer 18 Feb 09 - 11:47 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 09 - 12:13 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 19 Feb 09 - 12:29 AM
meself 19 Feb 09 - 12:40 AM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 09 - 02:24 AM
Barry Finn 19 Feb 09 - 03:34 AM
gnu 19 Feb 09 - 05:41 AM
bald headed step child 19 Feb 09 - 05:55 AM
bald headed step child 19 Feb 09 - 06:02 AM
Peter T. 19 Feb 09 - 07:13 AM
Rapparee 19 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM
bankley 19 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM
Ebbie 19 Feb 09 - 10:35 AM
Lonesome EJ 19 Feb 09 - 11:05 AM
meself 19 Feb 09 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,AR 19 Feb 09 - 11:29 AM
bankley 19 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM
Peter T. 19 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM
gnu 19 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM
pdq 19 Feb 09 - 12:48 PM
Ebbie 19 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM
beardedbruce 19 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM
gnu 19 Feb 09 - 02:42 PM
Peace 19 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM
gnu 19 Feb 09 - 03:35 PM
gnu 19 Feb 09 - 03:43 PM
Charmion 19 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM
bobad 19 Feb 09 - 04:42 PM
DougR 19 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM
gnu 19 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 09 - 07:19 PM
Peace 20 Feb 09 - 12:52 AM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 09 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,Peace 20 Feb 09 - 01:40 AM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 09 - 01:42 AM
gnu 20 Feb 09 - 04:40 AM
bankley 20 Feb 09 - 07:18 AM
Stringsinger 20 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM
Charmion 20 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM
gnu 20 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM
3refs 20 Feb 09 - 03:23 PM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 09 - 03:37 PM
Peace 20 Feb 09 - 03:43 PM
Peter T. 20 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM
Peace 20 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM
meself 20 Feb 09 - 03:58 PM
Peace 20 Feb 09 - 04:01 PM
Peace 20 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM
meself 20 Feb 09 - 04:09 PM
Peace 20 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM
gnu 20 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM
Peter T. 20 Feb 09 - 06:28 PM
meself 20 Feb 09 - 06:54 PM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 09 - 06:56 PM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 09 - 07:04 PM
Peter T. 20 Feb 09 - 08:58 PM
Little Hawk 20 Feb 09 - 10:46 PM
gnu 21 Feb 09 - 04:34 AM
Megan L 21 Feb 09 - 05:38 AM
GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew 21 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM
Bob the Postman 21 Feb 09 - 09:36 AM
Ebbie 21 Feb 09 - 10:33 AM
Ed T 21 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM
meself 21 Feb 09 - 12:19 PM
Little Hawk 21 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM
Stringsinger 21 Feb 09 - 02:12 PM
gnu 21 Feb 09 - 02:19 PM
number 6 21 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM
number 6 21 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew 21 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,meself 21 Feb 09 - 07:05 PM
gnu 21 Feb 09 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,meself 22 Feb 09 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew 22 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM
gnu 22 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM
gnu 22 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,meself 22 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew 23 Feb 09 - 08:07 AM
gnu 15 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM
Ebbie 16 Mar 09 - 12:55 AM

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Subject: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:51 AM

Tomorrow, Obama comes to Ottawa for 5 hours (be still my beating heart) to hold a press conference with our beloved Prime minister, and a drafty twenty minutes in an airport hangar with the Opposition Leader, Michael "How High Shall We Jump For You?" Ignatieff.   This second coming of the first coming has the entire nation in the kind of swoon that would disgrace a nineteenth century matron in a tight corset.

The historical parallel that comes to mind is the leader of the Gauls, Vercingetorix, in chains, discussing things with the latest Roman emperor.

Bah, humbug.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

So turn off your TV and practice your guitar. Or read a book. Or go for a walk. It will be over soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM

Now, now...it's not that bad until they begin kissing his ring.

But after 8 years od enduring Bush, I'm not surprised they want to meet a US leader who 'may' do some good things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

Same old crap is already underway. Obama has said he would would like to make the NAFTA side agreements on the environment and such formal parts of NAFTA.

I hope Harper shows some balls and says, "If you like our tar sands oil, fine. If not, we can sell it to China. Maybe you can burn more coal. Oh, yeah, Japan called about a load of lumber... speaking of which, when are you gonna pony up with the $6B you owe us..."

But, likely not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:01 AM

Hell, he carries $6b in his wallet these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:03 AM

Just close your eyes and think of all the words to "O Canada"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

God save our gracious North
    Long live our noble North
    God save the North!
    Qu'elle soit victorieuse
    Heureuse et glorieuse
    Que Dieu protège notre Nord
    Vive la Nord!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM

Oh thank God! A country that still sucks up to the USA? There is still hope for us down here.   HaHaHaHaHah

Rapaire--what is that little box with the FF/FD inside, which apparently replaces an 'e'? I once came upon a web page where quoted texts were were written such that that box separated each letter, making it damn near impossible to read the text.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM

I dunno -- looks fine on my screen. I suspect that you don't have an International Character set on your PC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: MMario
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:28 AM

wierd - I had the little box a couple minutes ago - now it's not there....


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:56 AM

Next month GW Bush goes to Calgary for his first 6 figure speaking engagement.

Thats just about a thousand dollars per word.

suck up to that Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:00 PM

Frankly I wouldn't pay $5.00 USD to hear Bush speak. If he was appearing across the street from my house.

Unless I had a videocamera.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: DannyC
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:21 PM

... a videocamera and a trunkload of shoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

lol In addition to metal, they might have to set the detector for shoes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:30 PM

In regards to the Obama visit: Canadians are simply so happy that it's not George Bush that they've gone a little delirious, that's all. Also, Obama's young, good-looking, well-spoken, and likeable. That always helps.

I could never understand the fuss over Princess Diana. But I do understand it when it comes to Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:27 PM

Just saw Prime Minister Harper being interviewed. He was suggesting strongly that the US was heading toward some sort of unfair 'protectionism', and that Canada would have answers if this happened. With the world economy as it is, I'm not sure 'protectionism' means the same it would have a couple years ago.

They showed a clip of Obama complementing Canada on its economy and judgment, and wishing the US had been as wise in many of its decisions. Harper didn't seem mollified.

*sigh* when money is involved, motives get questioned...no matter what the decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:09 PM

LH.... deleterious?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM

I have proposed to the Canadian government that Canada begin a weapons development program, each armed with a small nuclear device, and that they then be targetted on drug companies. So far I have yet to hear back.

Do you think that Obama knows he landed at an airport named after a Nobel Prize winner?

A good friend wants to know whether Harper ALWAYS had hair like that.

I want to know if Obama had a valid passport.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM

No. Despedicacious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:21 PM

I had that once just a few months after the 'crabs' experience in 1966. Three courses of antibiotic treatment and nothing rotted away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:36 PM

Despedicacious? Never heard of that, me. Is it catching? And, if so, what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:37 PM

It has to do with sheep, Gnu. Difficult to explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:39 PM

Harper's hair? He could run for Governor of Illannoying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:42 PM

They are following like sheep? Or getting.... normal programming will resume at a later time. Please follow the testes pattern.

gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM

Despedicaciousness is a very difficult condition to eradicate once it has taken hold.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:11 PM

One undoubtedly must be De-despedicaciousized

I don't remember Bush getting a Canada-sucking-up thread when he visited Canada!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: heric
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:27 PM

No there a big crybaby thread about how he went to Mexico first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:46 PM

Obama didn't NEED a valid passport, not with the US Air Force, the US Marines, the US Army...and most importantly, the absolute niceness of Canadians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 07:56 PM

"I don't remember Bush getting a Canada-sucking-up thread when he visited Canada!"

That's because Bush thought he was in Siberia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Beer
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:09 PM

Ya!, and we all live in Igloos.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:54 PM

Peter, you are a curmudgeon. I love you as a brother, but you are an incorrigible crank. What has Obama done to hang chains on your Prime Minister? Although I love the analogy of Canada in the "kind of swoon that would disgrace a nineteenth century matron in a tight corset", I am missing the aptness of the image of a subjugated heathen prince kowtowing to an Emperor. First of all, wouldn't the Emperor summon the King of Gaul to Rome, not visit him in his crumbling hill-fort? And second of all, Emperor Obama has yet to send a single Legion into the Wilds of Ottawa. If we knew Canada could be subjugated by the mere visit of our Leader, we should have sent James Madison 200 years ago and avoided a lot of trouble and wasted time at unnecessary border crossings. We could be eating American Bacon and Pineapple Pizzas, American Club flavored soda water, and had all of the hockey teams in the NHL reside in American cities, instead of just the good ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:28 PM

Au contraire, I am a corrigible crank.

Obama is simply the most recent -- and perhaps the best and shiniest of emperors -- but we Druids of the North stand guard, watch them come and go, and remain unmollified. And, as everyone knows, Obama doesn't have to send any legions in, the country is already pacified and subjugated. For every Canada Dry, there are a myriad Coors and Budweisers slipping over the border and watering down our manhood.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM

IS Canada dry? I seem to remember state-owned liquor stores in Alberta and Ontario and Quebec and New Brunswick and such-like places. I hope it's not, because where would we then turn if Prohibition is again instituted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Beer
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 11:47 PM

Canada is definitely not dry and has great beer. Prohibition? Well if it did come back it wouldn't be like it was in Father's time (or is it Fathers' Amos?).
As far as Obama coming to Canada. I think it is great. The U.S. has finally got someone that they can believe in. It is needed and has arrived at a very appropriate time. 8 years of Bush destruction is 8 to many. Here it doesn't matter. Be it Harper, Clayton or Ignatieff we will still find faults in all of them and those that will follow. That is just the way it is in politics. Kennedy is still regarded a hero by many and many still criticize much of what did. Trudeau is a Hero to many Canadians, but many still regard him as an Asshole. Just like a lot of folks in the U.S. will find faults in Obama. I sincerely hope that Canada does suck up to Obama. The world needs a Hero just like Zorro, Superman, Spiderman, Hank Arron, Gordie Howe, Super Duck,The Lone Ranger and more.
When is the last Fucking Time that we had anything to cheer about?
I'm saddened that something that is good is being turned into something bad.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:13 AM

If the emperor needed to send the legions here, he would, L.E.J. It has not proven necessary to do that. Caesar simply bought us out instead over the last 5 or so decades. We've been effectively subjugated since the early 60s, to all intents and purposes.

As for Vercingetorix, the first time he was brought before Caesar was in Gaul, following the decisive Gallic defeat at their capital, Alesia. (It had been a very close run thing...Caesar could well have lost the Battle of Alesia, in which case his career would have had a bloody and sudden end in central Gaul.)

After the battle Vercingetorix rode in on a horse before the assembled Roman legions to kneel done before Caesar and surrender, he gave up his sword, then they took him off to Rome to entertain the mob, and eventually they strangled him in some Roman prison.

There are two ways to work with regards to the Empire. You can fight it...which is fine if you wish to die gloriously...or you can let the Empire in to do business in your country as they wish to, in which case you surrender much of your national sovereignty and most of your cultural identity over a period of time, but you get to live comfortably. This was true in the days of Rome too...except no Walmarts! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:29 AM

"For every Canada Dry, there are a myriad Coors and Budweisers slipping over the border and watering down our manhood."
Thank God for Keith's but I do see this horsepiss appearing on our horizon. Perish the thought!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: meself
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:40 AM

"We've been effectively subjugated since the early 60s, to all intents and purposes."

Only since the 60s?

Although I'm not sure "subjugated" is the word - that implies some measure of resistance ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:24 AM

Oh, there has been some resistance. There still is. But it has a rather limited effect.

For me, the downhill slide and surrender of Canada's sovereignty really was confirmed with the cancellation of the Avro Arrow fighter aircraft project. It's been a steady progression since then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:34 AM

The Canadains are happy because it's the first time in 8 yrs that they'll be able to understand what an American Dick/taker, eh, sorry this one's a President is saying.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:41 AM

heric... "No there a big crybaby thread about how he went to Mexico first."

No. We were pointing out that Bush went to Mexico first because he thought Mexico was the largest trading partner of the US.

LEJ... "...we should have sent James Madison 200 years ago..."

Ahhh, you did. As I recall, it was around 1812. We still have a border.

LH... As for the US buying up Canada over the last 5 or so decades, I think the timeline is well defined. Brian sold it down the river. Before, that, Pierre put the FIRA into all foreign investors.

I hope Obama is all he's cracked up to be. I just think he could be a tad more tactful in "negotiations" when talking to his country's largest trading partner... Buy American... Strengthen NAFTA... sounds a tad kickass to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: bald headed step child
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:55 AM

As someone who makes their living going back and forth across the border, I hope the meeting goes well.

About the beer, I buy alot of Canadian beer at home in the states, and have even gotten a few others to try it. I do get really funny looks when I try to pay for it in Canadian money though.

I think the whole protectionism thing has been blown out of proportion, as I don't think the intention was to exclude Canada, but the Mexicans get irate if they see us getting too chummy.

BHSC


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: bald headed step child
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:02 AM

Gnu, the biggest problems with NAFTA have nothing to do with Canada, they have to do with Mexico. I could go on for days about that. BUT Canada has very strict import standards, even from the US, as to how much can be imported versus export. It is monitored very closely.

All of this crap started because of one line in the stimulus bill that said FOR THESE PROJECTS ONLY, US materials should be used. This is barely a grain of sand compared to the amount of trade between our two countries.

BHSC


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:13 AM

Now is this a great way to spend Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day, or what?

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:38 AM

See, by sending you Bud and Coors and importing Canadian beer we don't have to let you in on stuff like Sam Adams, Blue Canoe, Zonker Stout, Moose Drool, Dead Guy, Fat Tire, Cutthroat, Midnight Satin, Belligerent Ass, Pete's, Sierra Nevada, Alaskan Amber, Polygamy Porter, and the rest. We keep THEM for ourselves and send the...other beer...out for export.

Heck, I can buy Keith's at the supermercado. Also Moosehead, Labatt's, and other Northern beers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: bankley
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM

hey Rap, you're a hoot...... how about an 'Obamada Lite'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:35 AM

Ha, I say. Labatts is mentioned. I do not like Labatts. Labatts tastes skunky. I do not like skunky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:05 AM

I don't see that Moosehead, Labatt's, or Molsen are any better than Budweiser, and are certainly not morally or ethically superior. Now Lethbridge is another story.
While it is PC to admire beers like Sam Adams, Fat Tire, etc, what this really amounts to is an anti-pilsner sentiment by ale drinkers who think a beer needs to be brown to be good. No, Budweiser (NOT Bud Light or any other bastardization) is good enough to stand in the company of Sol, Pilsner Urquell, crisp Belgians like Stella Artois, and snappy Spaniards like San Miguel.
And I say thank God we are finally talking about what's important in International Trade relationships....BEER!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: meself
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:26 AM

"For me, the downhill slide and surrender of Canada's sovereignty really was confirmed with the cancellation of the Avro Arrow fighter aircraft project."

For me, it was confirmed with the forcing of Sitting Bull back over the Medicine Line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:29 AM

Bush had a good enough relationship with Canada as I recall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: bankley
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

to the tune of Oh Canada.. the national anthem

'O-bamada' lets buy another round
let's get him halfway shitface
before leaving Ottawa town
he can loosen up and have a smoke
grown on Native land
might have a taste of imported toke
brought back from Afghanistan
I forget the rest of the words
Cuz it's only our national song
O-bamada, come again
when you can't stay so long"


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

We hated him root and branch.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

Not that it matters a whit, but Obama's sister lives in Mississauga.

Hmmm... maybe she is a spy! Quick, alert SEESAW... ot whatever they are called. (CSIS, fer ye ferriners)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: pdq
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:48 PM

"Obama is all he's cracked up to be. I just think he could be a tad more tactful in 'negotiations'..."

Don't mean this as a criticism of Obama, but since when has this guy been a diplomat? If he is skilled in diplomacy, where did he get the training?

He has a background in law school followed by a stint as Chicago political boss, followed by two years as a Senator. Not one thing in that resume that requires diplomacy or executive ability.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

I should think that a community organizer requires and utilizes a great deal of diplomacy, pdq. You ever tried getting people to work togeher?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

"We all hate poverty, war, and injustice,
Unlike the rest of you squares."

TL


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:42 PM

CBC News Net will have the press conference on "soon".


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Be still my beating heart . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:35 PM

Well.... I NEVER thought I would say this... well done Prime Minister Harper!

Obama and Harper said a lot of great things and said them well. I hope they can make them work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:43 PM

Hehehehe... I KNOW I shouldn't, but, I GOTTA.... I thought it was kinda neat that Stevie went off in French so long and Obama was making those head jestures "delayed" with the translation. Made me smile a tad. But, when Obama said, ".. in Iow... Ottawa...", I near shit myself laughing!!! Shades of Garge flashed through my mind!

Don't get me wrong.... I am a fan of Obama, so far, but, ya gotta admit, that was comical as hell!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:33 PM

In an hour or so it might even be safe for me to go home. A presidential visit to Ottawa is a heyday for the media but traffic hell for us poor locals who might want to pop uptown to get a video or a loaf of bread.

Did you know that part of the RCMP security guys' routine for "securing" the area around Parliament Hill includes welding the manholes shut and clearing the streets of newspaper vending boxes? Sheesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: bobad
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:42 PM

He went to the Byward Market and munched on a beaver tail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: DougR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

LH: you got a "thing" for Obama? If so, you'll have to wait your turn. There is a very long line down here in the lower 48.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

And, they said he had a "double" limo with a dummy in it for security. I thought Garge had retired?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:19 PM

I'm not sure what you're referring to, Doug. I don't have a thing for Obama. I have a thing for Winona Ryder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:52 AM

LH: I will say this once: I am much older than you and I SAW HER FIRST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:55 AM

Yeah? Prove it.

Just how old are you, anyway???


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:40 AM

I am 786, but I don't look a day over 203. (That's why I pee so much.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:42 AM

I'm not sure I can trust you when it comes to Winona. I think you might be fibbing about your age.

Say you were to drink about five glasses of water in the next minute or two. How soon after that would you need to pee? And for how long?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:40 AM

"... pee so much."

That's good for a firefighter, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: bankley
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:18 AM

what about the other Wynona, the one with the big Judds ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:39 PM

The jury is out on Obama as it was with FDR when he first was elected, who by the way despite historical revisionism pull the US out of the Great Depression. I was there!

Canada has the wisdom to be grateful that they don't have to contend with Bush and his policies any more.

The key to Obama's approach is that he was a community organizer on the streets of South Chicago. To get anything done for the benefit of the country, he has to attempt to pull people together with different ideas. I can only hope it'll work in his presidency.

Canada sucked up to Harper. As Naomi Klein has said, that was more of the same Shock Doctrine at work. Obama is Harper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

You should see the front page of the Ottawa Citizen today. Holy cats; I haven't seen such roll-on-the-floor adulation since the Chuck-n-Di show came to town circa 1985. There'll be no living with the BeaverTails people now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

Same here! The headlines... "Obama Dazzles Canada".

WTF?

Oh, yeah.... read the thread title again. Jaysus!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: 3refs
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:23 PM

With all due respect!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhTZ_tgMUdo


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:37 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Oh, brother...!

******

I have no interest whatsoever in Wynona Judd. Big Judds aren't particularly what I look for in a woman. I prefer small to medium Judds, generally speaking...but what really attracts me is the right combination of eyes, facial features, and expression of same, plus a general sort of physical grace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:43 PM

Brains. Brains are what it's all about. That and disposition.

Lie about my age? For shame. I'm 437 but I don't look a day over 261.

LH, if the science establishment ever finds me I will be kidnapped.

FACT: I can drink two 8 oz cups of coffee and turn it into 1 1/2 gallons of urine. No kidding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

Yes sir, we certainly roll over to have our stomach tickled.

Some of us remember Ronald "The World War II Vet who never left Hollywood" Reagan dazzling Canada singing "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" with Brian Mulroney.

I mean really. Is this a country of children or what?

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:51 PM

Children would give us a better chance, Peter. I like Obama, but the 'manifest destiny' crap that seems to be creeping into all this is horseshi--well, ya know.

We are not the 51st State. On this issue I'd lay down my life for this country.

It would be real nice if Harper showed some balls. I wish our PM would stop walking so closely behind US Presidents--if they stop shor he'll be in upto his shoulders. It is disgusting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:56 PM

It's just that we are so delighted to be noticed by the collosus to the South! ;-) It happens so rarely. One must savour the moment when it comes. I don't like Harper's politics, but I did think he spoke rather well at the news conference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: meself
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:58 PM

"We are not the 51st State. On this issue I'd lay down my life for this country."

I wonder if Canadian boys still fantasize about joining the partisans and waging guerilla war against the invading American military machine? (I do - and I see I'm not alone!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:01 PM

Harper spoke well, indeed. However, he'd obviously been told that some things were NOT for discussion. We still have a Canuck citizen who's spent years in Guantanimo. WTF. So, IMO, with respect to your observation LH, it constituted more Canadian kowtow for our neighbours to the south.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Hi, meself.

It could become a reality in the future. IMO--without question--the Yanks would kick the crap out of us. BUT, this country has more people who really know and understand the bush, mountains, rivers--much like the Afghans or VC did and do. They'd have to find us to kill us. They have excellet special warfare troops. But even they don't live through well-executed ambushes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: meself
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:09 PM

Ah! I see you've been giving this some thought. We'll have to get together and start planning our defences.

"IMO--without question--the Yanks would kick the crap out of us."

What?! You need another beer, buddy; get yuh thinking straight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:16 PM

Indeed I have given thought as to how one might structure a defense in depth. In the day we hide in taverns and at night in folk clubs. Real partisans will wear pink or some other mutually-agreed-to gauche colour, but not TELL anyone. Garlic on the bullets, fake bombs that when they fall blare really loud but bad music and we piss in the beer vats at Molson's. The Americans, seldon having had real beer would drink it anyway. Stuff like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM

Peace... more Kowtow? I didn't think so. I thought he did great. (And, as you may be aware, until yesterday, I despised the miserable fucker... now, I simply loathe him.)

No nasty stuff, but still made the proper points. He did not kiss ass or kick ass. But, he was clear on our "relationship". Mutually beneficial.

As for that Canuck lad in US custody... when you throw grenades at US soldiers and kill, being allowed to live is a fuckin bonus, no matter where it is. Seriously, now.... if I or you had been there, would that little shit still be breathing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:28 PM

I have no complaint with Obama. In fact I am fascinated with his situation: here he is, someone who, as far as I can tell, is quite sane, decent, very, very well read, intelligent, and of a naturally cheery disposition, and who has been given the worst toxic agenda of crap anyone can possibly imagine left by that dolt Bush. I just don't see how he can wade through it all. His economy is a complete disaster, health care is in ruins, the country is involved in two stupid wars, the climate is deteriorating at a faster rate than ever, and Bush wrecked all the international good will there was going, trampled on the treaties, treated everyone with contempt or carelessness.

I can't imagine how he is going to solve all this.   

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: meself
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:54 PM

gnu - I'm afraid you haven't been following that case. Besides the fact that the boy was only fourteen at the time - or was it fifteen? - there is little if any reason to believe he threw a grenade or killed anyone. Last I heard, it seems likely that US soldiers were throwing grenades over the wall where it happened, coincidentally no doubt, that one of theirs was killed by a grenade. Friendly fire, in other words.

The boy was indeed lucky to be "allowed to live" - when he was lying on the ground full of bullets, it is reported, and the report has not been disputed, that a soldier was about to execute him, when an order came from higher up that they wanted a prisoner ... Has anyone yet heard a word of objection to this proposed murder of a wounded enemy child-soldier? I haven't. When the original official report of the action was written, it did not state that Kahdr threw the grenade that killed the medic; the report was altered shortly after so that there would be someone to take revenge on. And as other eye-witness accounts and reports have emerged, it looks less and less likely that Kadhr killed anybody.

Furthermore, there have been several resignations of US military personnel from the case in protest against its on-going injustice. These are not only lawyers appointed to defend Kahdr, but the last I heard was the trial judge, who refused to preside over a farce of a trial.

Let me make that clear: these are members of the USAF who quit the court in protest. And yet you seem to think the treatment this young man has received is just fine and dandy. It's no wonder Harper and the Conservatives haven't bothered to speak up on this matter ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 06:56 PM

Beautifully put, Peter. That's how I see it too. I wish Obama all the luck in the world, because, by God, he needs it right now!

I was surprised how well Harper conducted himself. I have decided I dislike him less than I thought I did. I think, though, that Ignatieff will be the next Prime Minister in awhile from now. Then we'll see what he's got.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:04 PM

Guys, regarding the 15 year old lad Khadr who threw a grenade...

He was fighting in a war. He picked his side, the American soldiers picked their side. They were both trying their best to kill the people on the other side, and they both figured they were in the right to do it. Khadr got caught and he's in prison.

So....would you feel just great about some American soldiers getting caught and imprisoned in some hole like Guantanamo for years for simply doing in battle what is normally done in battle? I bet you wouldn't.

American soldiers ARE the terrorists in the eyes of many of those they are fighting against on foreign ground. People here seem to forget that.

I do not regard a human being as a criminal monster deserving permanent imprisonment just because he happens to have been serving on the other side in a war. War is war. The people on both sides aim to kill. That's reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 08:58 PM

Of course, in spite of what I said, this is completely delusional:

President Obama was asked this week by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation if Afghanistan is still winnable.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: "I think Afghanistan is still winnable, in the sense of our ability to ensure that it is not a launching pad for attacks against North America. I think it's still possible for us to stamp out al-Qaida, to make sure that extremism is not expanding but rather is contracting. I think all those goals are still possible, but I think that as a consequence to the war on Iraq, we took our eye off the ball. We have not been as focused as we need to be on all the various steps that are needed in order to deal with Afghanistan."

Oh sure, there are weasel words in there, but the truth is you can no more stamp out Al-Qaeda, than you can stamp out globs of mercury. He seems to believe, like Georgie Boy, that it is some army somewhere lurking. It is a loose chain of militant Muslims all over the place.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:46 PM

I agree, Peter. Obama's position on Afghanistan and Al Queda is totally delusional.

However....he'd never have been electable in the first place if he'd not vowed to continue fighting "the terrorists" and securing victory in Afghanistan, would he?

I wonder if Obama really believes the stuff he says about Afghanistan and Al Queda? It would be interesting to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 04:34 AM

Okay. Fair enough. I did not know that he was innocent nor did I know that the US military altered and falsified documents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 05:38 AM

Of course he doesnt believe it hes a politician


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:56 AM

Charmion wrote: "You should see the front page of the Ottawa Citizen today. Holy cats; I haven't seen such roll-on-the-floor adulation since the Chuck-n-Di show came to town circa 1985. There'll be no living with the BeaverTails people now."

The Regional Health Officer reports that there have been no cases of scrofula on the Byward Market since Obama's visit. This is a good thing. :^)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:36 AM

I don't watch TV but the buzz in the lunch room at work was that, during the post-meeting joint press conference, Harper's demenour was that of the recently spanked. As Peace wrote, "However, he'd obviously been told that some things were NOT for discussion." Later, Ignatieff stated that Canada would have a presence in Afghanistan long after the legislated end-date of the military mission. My take on it is that Harper is eager to be Obama's poodle but Obama's handlers have long since picked a different, more Ivy League, puppy from the litter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:33 AM

I saw this thread yesterday but this morning I read the title as
'Canada Sucking up to Obama Dry'. Which is it? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:27 AM

William Shatner's solution to Canada's political plight:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4854183a1860.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: meself
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 12:19 PM

"nor did I know that the US military altered and falsified documents"

This seems to be "on the record" now, and I don't believe anyone is disputing it.

But even if he were guilty, as LH says, it's war. We didn't keep members of the Hitler Youth locked up for seven or more years. The German novelist Gunter Gross (sp.?) in a memoir/confession regarding his war experience in the Hitler Youth, related his experience as part of a anti-aircraft gun crew that shot down a Canadian plane - should we go after him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:33 PM

I've been saying for years that William Shatner should be leader of the entire North American continent...if not the World. I'm glad to see he's stepping up to the plate now with this offer to become the next Prime Minister of Canada. ;-) It's a good start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:12 PM

If I were a Canadian citizen, I would vote for Naomi Klein. She's brilliant!


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:19 PM

meself... are you saying that Canada never imprisoned "Prisoners Of War" taken in Europe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:23 PM

She is brilliant ... too brilliant for public office.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: number 6
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

"We didn't keep members of the Hitler Youth locked up for seven or more years"

... huh .... they most certainly where locked up here in Canada .... many German POW's were not sent back until well past the war's end.

My father (an officer) in the Canadian army was a POW interrogator after the war was over .. whose job was to weed out German SS who disguised themselves as regular German infantry.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM

A significant number of German PWs did not want to return. I suspect that one of the reasons for not sending them back faster was a lack of transport. Canada did not rank highly when it came to obtaining personnel lift, and what West-to-East lift it had was first given to reinforcement of the formation that made up the occupation force.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:05 PM

Of course we had German POWs. We didn't charge them with spurious crimes, though, and from anything I've read or heard, we treated them fairly decently. There's no comparison.

And, I was talking specifically about Hitler Youth - how many fourteen or fifteen-old-year Germans were held for seven years in Canadian camps, awaiting prosecution for phony crimes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:12 PM

Treated fairly decently? Many ended up in sick bay on the prisoner ships after they were loaded on board because they were stabbed in the ass with bayonets upon boarding. Many of them suffered from malnutrition because a weak prisoner is easier to control and grub was scarce.

I not have followed the plight of the 14 year old Canuck who had the money and the wherewithall to travel half way round the earth to gain training and take up arms against the infidels and get caught up in it all, but I do have some knowledge of what happened in WW2 as it applies to the treatment of prisoners taken to Canada in WW2. My old man told me. He was there.

He told me a lot of stuff. Much of it, you would not believe... unless your old man told you.

As for that 14 year old boy, he should not have been there in the first place... there should have been no "there" in the first place. It is all so disgusting and horrid.

But, in war, the soldiers suffer, the people suffer... politicians and rich prosper. It's disgusting and horrid.... and beyond.

Megan.... others... would I really have laid him to waste if it was me? I dunno... I wasn't "there". 50/50 really...


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 10:58 AM

"Much of it, you would not believe... unless your old man told you."

Well, apparently this is precisely what happened with Khadr - he believed what his old man told him - which was that he should come with him to the other side of the world and join the cause. You or I would have done the same at that age, I have no doubt.

.................................

Something I was going to mention earlier, to give the devil his due: a news report I heard that Harper (or was it one of the other big shots? maybe Ignatieff - I know there's a difference) did raise the question of Khadr with Obama, and Obama's reply was that all the case at Git-mo are under review.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM

It was Ignatieff who raised the matter of Khadr with Obama, IOW, not someone who was a member of the government of the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM

Where is the lad's old man, anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM

Gosh. His old man did a lot of great work funding relief aid, hospitals... conflicting reports about his death, tho.

I wonder why the Yanks falsified docs and such. Maybe we'll never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 02:46 PM

The father was killed some time ago now; I believe in a raid of some Al- Q...da nest in the Middle East somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 08:07 AM

Ahmed Said Khadr was killed by Pakistani forces during a raid in South Waziristan on 2 October 2003. Omar's brother was left a paraplegic as a result of the same raid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: gnu - PM
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:41 AM

heric... "No there a big crybaby thread about how he went to Mexico first."

No. We were pointing out that Bush went to Mexico first because he thought Mexico was the largest trading partner of the US.
*********************************************************************

Why didn't he go to Mexico first?


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Subject: RE: BS: Canada Sucking Up To Obama Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 12:55 AM

Earlier in this thread there wss a passing discussion of German POWs in Canada and that they did not return home immediately.

I used to go with a former POW. He was captured in 1943 at the age of 19 in a French vineyard by an American tank corps.

He was brought to the US for the duration, first in North Carolina and then in Alabama.

He said that during FDR's tenure the prisoners ate well, even chocolate cake, which, given how starved they were in France, gave him a much needed 30 pounds. After FDR died, it was a different story- spartan fare, plenty of it but spartan.

When the war ended the POWs were not allowed to return home because Germany wasn't able to feed even itself. The POWs were given a choice of where they wanted to go. My friend chose England which is where he remained, helping with crops, until 1948.


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