BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow

Subject: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 08:01 PM

Since I spend 8 to 10 hours a day on the computer, I have developed a pain on the top of my elbow. If I try to lift a pot or pan by the handle, I get a sharp pain raidiating down my forearm and have no strength in my right arm in the level position. I already wear a wrist brace for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome and I now have to wear an elbow brace as well.

My Chiropractor whom I see twice a week on a regular basis has told me that I have to rest my right hand even if it means staying off the computer. Being that I have a concert series to run (The Borderline), that is not an option for me.

So even thought I am righthanded, I am now using my left hand to operate the mouse. It is a little awkward at first and very slow but I am getting used to it. It is definitely a better alternative than staying off the computer entirely.

Has anyone else here encountered this problem and if so what have you done about it?

SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:01 PM

I do not have anatomical problems, but I consider it a nuisance to leave the keyboard & manipulate the trackball. My browser, Conkeror, is designed to be largely mousefree.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:18 PM

Yes.. I got very achey hand from too much 'mousing' several years ago.
I discovered a computer program which allowed me to mostly just move the mouse, and which then clicked the mouse based on rules I set...(like how long the mouse was to wait before it 'clicked', how to do a double-click, how to disable the routine..etc.

It worked like a charm...after a little getting used to. It rested my hand and kept it from cramping.

It was called "MouseTool" this is now a payware program (and I'm not sure it's still in business...the link goes to a dead site..), but the earlier free version seems to still be out there in a couple of places....and it worked fine.

At this site they list Jeff Roush's MouseTool 3.13 (Donationware) in a zip file. I think this is the correct one. If not, I probably have the old download stored somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:32 PM

well..that zip file says it is 450mg, but when I download it, it says 0 bytes. I'll look about.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:38 PM

Ok,,,try this one!.
It says to install 3.13 first, then you 'can' do version 3.16 over it to get an improved version. I have not tried 3.16 yet....nor have I looked at the 'thinstallation' it refers to.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:40 PM

There's a brace you can buy for tennis elbow. It goes around the arm just below the elbow and tightens with velcro. The black ones are better than the white ones (I don't know the brands), and they are in most drugstores.

RICE -- rest, ice, compression and elevation -- will also help. NSAIDs, like ibuprofen, can help relieve the pain.

This is tendonitis, and will be a recurring problem if you don't treat yourself right. If you must use a mouse, get a trackball -- there are some very ergonomic ones out there now, but try before you buy. I don't use a mouse at work or at home and I've managed to convert many of my staff -- helps keep the medical costs down, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:41 PM

well..right after I posted, I looked, and indeed the 'thin' version gives you a no-install version which looks like it will work fine, and can be put ona flash drive and carried with you to any computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:02 AM

I went from using an optical trackball, which was doing my thumb in (pains all up the arm into the shoulder), to an "old fashioned" clicking mouse, but on a mat with built in wrist support. This has helped a great deal although prolonged use can still cause problems.

Getting the heights of desk / chair / screen combination right for you can also help. Standard furniture is made for average people and if you're tall / short / small / large in any dimension, the dimensions won't be right for you.
Get a GOOD chair which is plenty adjustable. Once the back is supported adequately, other adjustments can be made.

Good luck
Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:35 AM

Symptoms like are described can be caused by more or less constant stress on muscles, tendons, and joints, due to holding a "mostly fixed" position, but can also - for some of us - be caused by poor circulation to the affected joint, often from resting the "mouse elbow" continuously on a chair arm or the edge of a desk near the mouse.

The "prevention" commonly cited is the "get up and move" at regular intervals. A commonly recommended interval is "every hour," but for some a half-hour without a little stretching is probably too long. Once an injury has been created, the useful interval may drop to nearly zero, but often sufficient "resting" can be done with brief but very frequent movement, massage, or other diversions.

While exotic aids to allow you to continue to do something that hurts, with lessened (or less obvious) continued damage are (perhaps) appropriate in professional athletics, for most of us the better approach is to figure out what causes the hurt and quit doing it, or do it differently so that it doesn't hurt.

It's not often just using the mouse (or the keyboard) that causes hurt; but the continuous using in one position without frequent enough breaks to keep the body juices moving freely. And "resting the joint" may not mean putting the arm in a sling and not using it at all - although you perhaps should discuss with your "medicine man" exactly what (s)he means by "resting" it. The recommendation may be to quite mousing entirely, but unless the damage is really severe just improving the "work habit" to include better, or different and more varied, posture and very frequent (doing something entirely different) breaks may be sufficient.

If more restrictive "resting" is recommended, it certainly is appropriate to take the advice given by your professional consultant.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:14 AM

Sensible advice as ever, from JohnInKansas.

In the long ago, when I played squash regularly (and did some coaching with beginners), I found that the size of the racquet grip, once bedded in, was crucial. If it was too small, tendonitis rapidly kicked in. If it was too large, the same thing happened!

Holding a mouse is clearly very different - raw strength is obviously not what's needed. It may be worth having a few in different sizes and changing them regularly. This will add one more variable to the repeated action and may help stave off the problem.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: GUEST,suzi
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 06:41 AM

Yes I had it a few years ago, and I had accipuncture for it. It took three sessions , and never been a problem since.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:43 AM

Some good advice above including

Learning to use shortcut keys instead of the mouse. Stops you gripping the mouse all of the time, and actually speeds up your work (once you know how to use them).
A simple example is

If I want to select all the text in a document I hold the CTRL key down on the keyboard and press the letter A on the keyboard once (rememberng of course to let them go :-) ).

If I want to only select a part of the document, I move the cursor using the keyboard, to the start of text I want and then hold the Shift key down and select the text I want by using the arrow keys on the keyboard, and then letting the shift key go.

On the assumption I want to copy it somewhere else, I then hold the CTRL key and press the letter C on the keyboard. That will copy the text you have selected.

move the cursor to the desired place in the document and hold the CTRL key and press the V key on the keyboard (Paste) and a copy of your text will appear at the desired place in the document.

Bear in mind, you can use those options for everything you do on the computer for copying and pasting, without even touching the mouse. I can tell you that it faster than using the mouse.

Using a trackerball. The big advantage is that you don't have to grip the mouse and move it about the desk. Just that in itself will eliminate the risk of getting tennis elbow.


When I used to teach IT, one of the biggest problems was with the way people held the mouse, or should I say "wrung the living daylights out of the mouse". Using the mouse in terms of grip, is a bit similar to gripping a tennis racket. If you grip it too tight and use it a lot, you will get tennis elbow.
I used to do one day courses for people who were familiar with using the mouse and applications like Word, Excel etc and teach them all the shorcuts. Touch typists found it a blessing in disguise, as they no longer had to use the mouse, which slowed them down immensely. To this day it still stands.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:41 AM

Two memories from the early days of democratising computers, teaching night courses:

1. A student who held the mouse in his right hand - and moved that hand with his left! Thought the mouse had to be on the right hand side of the screen - and he was lefthanded!

2. Student who reversed the mouse in his hand - when he moved it left, the pointer moved to the right! "I just find it easier that way." sez he. Never did figure that one out.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 09:24 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:21 AM

With some older mouses, you could change the "angle" in a control setting so that if you wanted the mouse could point northwest (or northeast) but screen "up and down" still corresponded to an up/down motion on the mousepad.

With some "modern" mouses, it happens automatically - although I hadn't actually noticed that mine does an automatic compensation until very recently. Especially if it happens without changing a setting, this eliminates the need for a fixed "wrist cock" that might stress the joint(s), and allows you to get some "wiggle" into mousing.

(The three that I checked just now all allow up to about 40 degrees of "cockiness" and still compensate accurately, but all three are both "wireless" and "optical" and I'm not sure which feature allows the mouse to know when to be a crab instead of a mouse.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: bald headed step child
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 12:12 PM

One thing I have found useful, in the area of changed angle, is that you don't have to use a mouse pad. When I'm doing things that require a lot of mousing, I often use the mouse on my leg which changes the angle of the elbow and wrist. Regular mouse works fine this way, optical mouse does require pants.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:57 PM

A few years ago I read a book by a medical doctor who said that using a mouse as little as 6 hours a week can cause problems. I decided to minimize my use of a mouse.

For example, to open a file, I hit Alt - f - o. (one after another, no need to hold anything down.) My right hand doesn't drag a mouse onto a little word on the screen, my left skips lightly up the keyboard.

Other combos:

to print   alt f p or ctrl p
to save alt f s   or ctrl s
to close alt f c
to exit alt f x
to highlight a whole document ctrl a
to find ctrl f

The more things you can do without a mouse, the better!

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 09:10 PM

But leenia left out the real goodies:

"Alt-A, V, X" and it's inverse "Alt-A, V, B"

Of coure one may need "Alt-A, A" or "Alt-A, R" and/or "Alt-A, C" sometimes.

And the really handy "Alt-I, k" which is nearly always to be followed by "Alt-I, I, Alt-O."

And the indispensible "Ctl-F9, =" with which one must learn what subsequent "F9," "Shft-F9," and "Ctl-Shft-F9" do.

In most recent Word versions, click on Help and search on "keyboard" to find a whole list of such shortcuts (unless you've moved up to Office 2007 in which there is no useful help for anything).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:16 PM

Rabbi:

Using a mouse can cause Carpal Tunnel Syndrome which can result in weakness and tendinitis anywhere on your arm, up to and including your neck.

I could not find a comfortable position for my arm while trying to sleep for years.

Finally the CTS became apparent and I had the release operation.

Soon after that all of the pains in my arm were gone completely and permanently.

There is an electronic test of the reaction of your nerves to a slight electrical shock that can diagnose or rule out CTS quickly and accurately.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:02 AM

I've had that electronic test.. hurt like a bitch! Mind you, that's because my tendons were perfectly OK and it was a cartiledge I'd popped...

Have you considered using a pen and tablet mouse? It's what I use at home and it's made a great difference.

I would suggest asking someone to come and observe you as you work. A second point of view is often invaluable in these situations, if that person is a trained Workplace Risk Assessor, then all the better! Another person can tell you at what angle your arms and legs are in relation to the desk (legs and arms at right angles used to be the suggested preference but now they recommend that it is more, to avoid compressing the blood vessels in the upper thigh/hip and elbow). The other person will also be able to tell you how frequently you move, what you stretch for without realising, how you maybe hold something awkwardly and point out things you didn't even know you did.

Use footstools, monitor raising blocks (or the Yellow Pages) and adjust your chair occasionally to get the best seating arrangement. See if you can 'test drive' different tracking systems or mouse arrangements... there are many on the market and not all are suitable.

Stretch your arm out regularly - you should be taking a break from your screen 10 minutes out of every hour and never work more than 5-6 hours without a 30 min break away from your desk. There are several Pilates style exercises that you can do whilst sitting at your desk, that will encourage blood flow and stretch out the other parts of your arm.

Try not to rest your arms on anything for too long, they should hang from your shoulders, which in turn should be relaxed and dropped with a straight back. Resting on the armrest or desk all the time will compress tendons, ligaments and blood vessels. Your elbows should be a little more than 90degrees to your body, on a downward slant.

Review your position regularly. Most employers insist their staff take a workplace training module (usually computer based) once a year, it's mandatory in government offices in the UK where Workplace Risk Assessors are on hand to observe if something is flagged up by the training. You need to treat yourself as an employee and make sure you complete regular checks and training. Fine yourself if you don't do it!

LTS
(Government Workplace Risk Assessor)

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:38 AM

Here's another thought, if not for Sol, perhaps helpful to someone else reading this.

I went to doctor with elbow problems. He said to me, 'For some reason, you have been doing this:' and he folded an arm inward and set the point of his elbow on the table and leaned upon it. Obviously this put pressure on the very point of the elbow.

I thought he was nuts, but when I monitored my daily activity, I found there was a task (it may have been using the phone) where I did just that. So I stopped, and stopping helped.

Subject: RE: BS: Tennis (Computer Mouse) Elbow
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 10:16 AM

Alt followed by left arrow takes me to the previous web page.
Alt followed by right arrow takes me foward a web page.

Wahoo!