Accepted chords for traditional tunes

Subject: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 05:50 AM

There's a wealth of lead lines available for traditional tunes out on the net, for example, the Lewes Tunebook, The Session, etc.

What is harder to pin down is the "standard" harmonic underpinning of the tunes - the chords - which one can play in a session, and which are the accepted chords. There are many options for chord sequences for such tunes and, while some are intuitive, some are not so. I have a good ear and am fairly good at anticipating chord changes on guitar when hearing a session tune for the first time - but I don't know, unless someone else more familiar with the tune is also playing it - is that my changes are completely correct.

Anyone know of any source(s) for chords for the tunes?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 05:52 AM

"completely correct" WHAT!?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 06:06 AM

"completely correct" WHAT!?

OK - I'll rephrase that: correct in the sense that they're generally accepted as the chords to play. If everyone is playing the melody line at a session, the question barely arises - it doesn't matter. However, for poor, humble guitarists who are playing chords behind the melody, the question does arise - particularly if there's more than 1 chordal player. If we don't agree on what chords to play, then some 'orrible dischords can arise - so the question arises: are there "standard", "acceptable" or even "correct" chord sequences which one can turn to?

For example, I play the following sequence for "Staten Island" (in D):

D / / / D / / / G / Em / A7 / / /
D / / / D / / / Em / A7 /D / / /
D / / / D / / / G / Em / A7 / / /
D / / / D / / / Em / A7 /D / / /
D / A / D / G / C - - - C - - -
D / A / D / A / G / Em / A / D /
D / A / D / G / C - - - C - - -
D / A / D / A / G / Em / A / D /

Other players might feel that the underlying sequence should be different - if they do: dischord.

Any questions?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

well for chords in the dorian mode example Adorian[a minor [or modal]f major to g major,seems a common progression.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:50 AM

In sessions, I play guitar (chords) and mandolinish /banjoish things (melody) - often with two of the people who have contributed to this thread so far.

I make it a rule NEVER to play guitar if there is another guitarist playing because inevitably there will be a clash of chords as no two musicians will agree over what the chords are without arranging them in advance. There is a monthly session in our area with some fine musicians as regulars, but I have stopped going because there are three or four guitarists contributing regularly and the result is often a messy discordance.

I play in a six-piece dance band - again both chords and melody - and I always make sure when we introduce a new tune that what I am playing chords that agree with the inventive accordionist and the bass guitarist. When the accordionist can't make it, the dep. is a G/D melodeon player and then I have to play a much simpler range of chords simply because the melodeon - whilst being ideal for dancing - has a more restricted palette of chords.

Even although guitar was my first instrument, my only instrument for many years, I think that overall sessions are better without them.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:59 AM

"completely correct" indeed, Will Fly. Go and wash your mouth out. This is a folk forum.
Anyway, at a session playing British or Irish tunes, you are forgetting the Second Rule. Which is "only one harmonic instrument at a time". (The First Rule is, no bodhrans). So, if you obey the Second Rule, there will only be one guitarist(or piano) or whatever, so it shouldn't matter too much which chord you play. Problems also may arise with meledeon players who use their left hands on the chord buttonsw, but they can safely be ignored. Those buttons just make a sort of indeterminate wheezing noise.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:03 PM

I find Captain Birdseye's comment rather confusing, when he suggests Fmajor is a good chord to use in A dorian tunes. Since there is no F natural in the A Dorian mode, I think almost any use of an Fmajor might jar and confuse the ear, even if it fits with a melody note (eg an A or a C).
Cap'n, I might be talking total rubbish here. Can you link to a recording of an A dorian tune with an F chord in the accompaniment, so that we can judge what you are suggesting?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM

Greg Stephens wrote:-
"The First Rule is, no bodhrans"

I think that the person whose opinion that we should respect on the use of the bodhan is the great Reg Hall, perhaps the finest mind associated with traditional music in these islands. He has said -
The only place a bodhran should be heard is accompanying the Wren Boys on St. Stephen's Day........ and then, not every year.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:33 PM

no, I cant,
but try it its more likely to work when the melody is a or c,it often works between a minor and g major as a apartial sub,just before you change to g,depending on the melody.sometimes this chord works face[a cross between a minor and f]and sometimes a brief d modal 7 dac can work when the melody is either a or c.
have alook at the jig old johns jig

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:35 PM

bodhrans are grand,if the player can play them,colm murphy is agood bodhran player,but its better if they learn to sing the tunes first.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

Is it just me or does what Dick Miles has written about chords above not make a lot of sense?

In his first posting he says Adorian[a minor [or modal]f major to g major,seems a common progression. (I thought at first that he might be talking about a tune that modulates, but apparently not).

Greg then challenges him, correctly in my view, by pointing out that "there is no F natural in the A Dorian mode."

Dick then comes back with just before you change to g,depending on the melody.sometimes this chord works face[a cross between a minor and f]and sometimes a brief d modal 7 dac can work when the melody is either a or c.

Now, it could be that this is way over my head, but it seems to me that we are still waiting to find out how F natural fits into this scale.

Can anybody help me?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 01:14 PM

try old johns jig.a tune in a dorian.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 01:27 PM

I suspect that the Capn meant G major to A minor, or perhaps D major to G major to A minor.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 01:57 PM

OK. I am looking at http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/57 - Old John's Jig. On that website the ABC for the tune is given as follows:-

X: 1
T: Old John's
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K: Ador
|:cAA cAA|GEE GAB|cAA cAA|Add ded|
cAA cAA|GEE GAB|cde ged|cAA A3:|
efg eaa|ged cAA|efg eaa|bag a3|
efg eaa|ged cAA|cde ged|cAA A3:|

No "F" note in the A section, but three in the B section. We can see that Dick has correctly described the tune as being in "A Dorian". Now if we go from the "ABC" tab on that web page to the "Sheet Music" tab, we see the notated tune (which sadly can't be reproduced here) written out with a key of one sharp ( as if it were in in G major or E minor) so that the one sharpened note is the "F" and the sheet music does not indicate the need for an F natural.

So how does Dick answer Greg's comment that I think almost any use of an Fmajor might jar and confuse the ear when there seems to be no F natural in the tune. In which bars would Dick introduce an F major chord?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: DonMeixner
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 02:00 PM

What has happened to 4 people saying" We are gonna play this very old chestnut in D ." and then just launching into the tune? I have played The Red Haired Boy the same way for years. A great guitarist I know showed it to me recently leaving out a chord where I have always put one. The world din't spin backwards. We weren't worried about modes and what was correct. We just played the tune and we had much fun and cheers and Huzzahs! were heard by all.

The point is play the song or the tune and sort it out. Worry about the rightness or wrongness of what you have done when you are doing the doctoral disertation on Traditional Cross Over Tunes of The British Isles and The Outer Banks.

There is no right or wrong there is music and thats enough.

Don

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 02:33 PM

look,take the first bar caa caa,right play aminor f major then thenext bar[eminor or g 6 to g major.
Paul DE grae,in his book IRISH GUITAR,then suggests and I quote,we are not finished with this tune,Iwant to introduce aconcept caled the unexpected chord,and he starts off,playing the first bar in f major.,then plays e minor for the next chord,but g6 works as well[imo]
I prefer Aminor to f major,rather than a full bar of f major.but is p[ersonal taste
Paul deGrae is a guitarist of some note who accompanies Jackie Daly.
Vic.Ihave used it on other ocassions and it is effective [imo]

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 02:38 PM

De Grae, uses it in bar 1 bar 3 bar5,of the first part,Iwould use it for half the first bar,and half the third bar.
try experimenting,you will find it works loads generally when you have a and c in the melody.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Marje
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM

I don't think you'd ever find an authoritative source for the "right" chords, and even if you did, no one else would be using the same source, so what would be the point?

I agree it can sound a bit of a mess when there are too many chordal instruments, but if you're not playing in a performance or a band, maybe it's not such a big deal. I try (on melodeon) to listen to other instruments and follow their chords when I can - sometimes - but other times I might just stick to what I like and ignore them. For instance, in Staten Island I'd prefer to play D / G / D / A at the start of the B-part. If I feel it's sounding too much of a mess, I might just leave out certain basses if I know mine would clash with some fancy riff.

Basically, if there are melodeons, they have a restricted range of chords and you may just have to follow them (and some melodeon basses are difficult to ignore, believe me, they're not all wheezy and vague). This won't be too taxing but may get a bit boring for a good guitarist. On the other hand if you get a piano accordion, they have vast numbers of chords and may use them just because they can. This fits with what Vic is saying up thataway.

So forget about "right" chords - I think all you can do is listen and work it out as you go.

Marje

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 02:41 PM

So how does Dick answer Greg's comment that I think almost any use of an Fmajor might jar and confuse the ear when there seems to be no F natural in the tune. In which bars would Dick introduce an F major chord?
you have your answer,stop worrying about modes and use your ears,and exoeriment.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 03:05 PM

In reality, the problem rarely arises in the sessions I play at because the chord-playing musicians I play with are fairly sensitive and will try not to clash if they can. It's actually not too hard to fit a single line - a bass line, for example - which will fit a tune and not clash; volume levels can be adjusted to suit the piece being played - and there's very often one experienced person who can "lead" on the tune.

So I'm not too worried. I was just curious as to whether there were any established harmonic sequences in tunebooks which could be referred to...

The ceilidh band I play in was having a rehearsal last night, and we were playing through some piece or other - "Paddy Carey", if memory serves. And we spent some discussing whether a particular chord progression should include an A minor or an A major - each chord giving a very different tonal colour and feel to the tune.

Vic - your comments were very interesting! I was contemplating coming along to the first of the new Sunday afternoon sessions at the Oak, but I think I might have to forego it...

(Bloody chord players... fecking guitarists.. can't stick to the tune... might have to bring the tenor banjo... grumble, grumble...)

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 03:41 PM

Dick wrote
"aminor f major then thenext bar[eminor or g 6 to g major."

Well, yes, I can see a case for that - and it makes an attractive sequence on the guitar - but I would never use it myself, particularly at the start of a tune. I think that I would feel that the accompanist was trying to grab the attention from the melody players. I would call that "F major" chord a "passing chord" with the emphasis on the "C" note in it as part of the transition from A minor to E minor. I daresay that an equal case could be made for starting with A minor / C major / E minor / G major but I wouldn't use that either for the same reasons.

Dick then wrote
"he starts off,playing the first bar in f major.,then plays e minor for the next chord,but g6 works as well"

I like this sequence even less, particularly at the start of a tune and more particularly the second or third time through when the brain wants to locate itself on the A minor chord which starts the tune. Just because an F major chord contains an "A" and a "C" it doesn't help the feel of a piece. In this case "an unexpected chord" sounds more like "a wrong chord" to me.

As has been said elsewhere in this thread, it is a matter of taste and for my money the "accompanist" should be just that, augmenting and aiding the melody instruments and providing a solid rhythmic base.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:11 PM

As has been said elsewhere in this thread, it is a matter of taste and for my money the "accompanist" should be just that, augmenting and aiding the melody instruments and providing a solid rhythmic base.
I agree,but I was trying to give you an example quickly,I stated my preference, which was for a partial sub,but there are loads of other occassions when I have heard it used successfully.
Vic,I dont care what you like.I have heard PaulDeGrae,he is a fabulous sensitive accompanist.I havent heard you,but do you get asked to accompany Jackie Daly?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:13 PM

Will Fly says -
"Vic - your comments were very interesting! I was contemplating coming along to the first of the new Sunday afternoon sessions at the Oak, but I think I might have to forego it...

(Bloody chord players... fecking guitarists.. can't stick to the tune... might have to bring the tenor banjo... grumble, grumble...)"

Well, you know, Mike, that you would be very welcome - and the session is for singers as well as instrumentalists - and the way that Ian and you were singing and playing together last week was excellent.

Can I take you back to your earlier comments where you said, If we don't agree on what chords to play, then some 'orrible dischords can arise. That is what all my contributions to this thread have been trying to address. You can read above how Dick and I differ in the way we would approach one tune. Who is correct? Dick? Me? Both of us? Neither of us? That is why I am with Greg when he suggests "only one harmonic instrument at a time" otherwise the 'orrible dischords you fear will arise. I reckon that you are going to struggle in vain to find "standard" harmonic underpinning of the tunes. In my experience, traditional music abhors the word "standard" and that is what makes the tradition so inventive.

One of my favourite singers of all time was the Scots traveller singer Davy Stewart. He often accompanied himself on the melodeon or the accordion and he broke every musical rule in the book, but he was always playing solo and only had himself to answer to but his strange otherworldly accompaniments remain a delight.

And since Mike has mentioned the new session the Tina and I are starting, I ought to give the details. It is to be on the last Sunday afternoon of the month at:-
The Royal Oak
Station Street
Lewes.
East Sussex
3.30 to 5.30

The nice thing about it is that the idea for the session comes not from us but from Patrick and Tara who run the pub. It is for singers as well as musicians and we intend that it should be roughly half and half of each.
All are welcome - even Bloody chord players and fecking guitarists.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM

This seems to me to be less attention-getting and more in the feel of the tune:

  X:1
  T:Old John's
  M:6/8
  L:1/8
  R:jig
  K:Ador
  "Am"cAA cAA|"Em"GEE "G" GAB|"Am"cAA    cAA|"D"Add      ded|
  "Am"cAA cAA|"Em"GEE "G" GAB|"Am"cde "G"ged|"Am"cAA     A3:|
  "Am"efg eaa|"G" ged "Am"cAA|"Am"efg    eaa|"G" bag "Am"a3 |
  "Am"efg eaa|"G" ged "Am"cAA|"Am"cde "G"ged|"Am"cAA     A3:|

It's a dance tune, you don't want to be told to stop and think in mid-step.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM

it is not attention seeking ,to use a partial sub,I would use a minor on the first bar through the tune,and if I was the only accompanist
a minor or A modal then either f or d modal with added 7 c[go on try it].
Wille Johnson used intersting and unusal chords all the time,was he an attention seeker?.
if people didnt experiment,ther would be no progress.
Paul De Grae is a first rate guitarist,and is more highly rated ,than[with respect] any of the other contributors on this forum.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:25 PM

The more "pasing" and "unusual" chords you slip in, the more the melody gets sidelined, I always reckon. If you've done the degree in Folkology with the Slightly Jazzed Up Accompaniment Module in your second year, it's not always necessary to draw attention to it.
Three chords were always enough for my gran' pappy, and they're good enough for me.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:27 PM

It's a dance tune, you don't want to be told to stop and think in mid-step.
.that is completely irrelevant,playing a partial sub,or an Fchord makes no difference to the dancers,they are listening to the rhythym.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:28 PM

Three chords were always enough for my gran' pappy, and they're good enough for me.

You fibber, Greg Stephens - I saw you play a 4th chord at Sandbach not long ago!

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:33 PM

And why should the "melody" players get all the attention? Melody, and melody players, wear thin after a short time--that's why chords were invented in the first place--

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:37 PM

Jack Campin wrote
"This seems to me to be less attention-getting and more in the feel of the tune - It's a dance tune, you don't want to be told to stop and think in mid-step. "


Well exactly. The chords suggested by Jack seem to fit really well to me, but imagine sitting in a session with one guitarist playing Jack's suggested chords and another playing the sequence that Dick is advocating......

Neither would be "wrong", but the result would probably be very messy.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:44 PM

Beyond the basic chords (say C, F, and G or G7 in the key of C), it's possible to substitute chords. Rather than sitting for several measures on C before you change to an F, you may want to go to Am for one or two measures, then F. If it sounds okay and you're used to doing that way, if you find yourself playing along with a bunch of other people who just sit on the C, the worst you can do by going to an Am before the change to F is to convert the C to a C6 for a measure or two. Hardly catastrophic, and it certainly wouldn't screw up the general harmony (no horrible dissonances). Beyond the basic essential chord changes (to keep the chords from clanking with the melody), these "substitute chords" that you can stick in for harmonic variety are pretty arbitrary.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:58 PM

The way fruitier passing chords can flavour a tune is astonishing. They can completely put you off a piece of music, or turn you on to it. I am particular un-fond of gratuitous relative minors(often used in Victorian piano accompaniments odd Scottish trad songs, and Californian soft rock); they can make me feel physically ill. A great example of this can be heard by comparing Bob Dylan's version of Blowin'in the Wind with Peter Paul and Mary's. Dylan does a straight down the line three chord trick version, brilliant (to my ears). PPM lard it up with syrupy minors, which I find terrible. But they obviously suited the public, who made it a great hit. It's all down to taste. But if I was singing that song at a session and some second guitarist started joining in and adding those PPM chords, well I'd take his guitar and, without greasing the machine heads, I would... (rest of post deleted Joe Offer)

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 06:44 PM

Greg is absolutely right about that. There are certain songs where using the relative minors is like putting fifteen spoonsful of sugar into your coffee.   Bleugh!!

Many times the bare-bones harmonies are perfect as is.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Betsy
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 07:30 PM

I agree with Greg Stephens 12:03 PM and though Dick, in the next post has tried stoutly to defend the F Major , I find it "jars" on me.
It seems a relatively new to play that way, I suppose it started +/- 25 years ago and although I can understand how it can work, it is something that I don't like to hear it. I used to refer it to it as nouveau accompaniment.It's not wrong - it's just my personal taste - I prefer a more traditional ( small "t") to accompaniment , but before slagging me off, just accept my ear is bit old fashioned , but I like it that way .

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:08 PM

There are always a lot of options for harmonizing and arranging traditional tunes, and taste, rather than any theory or book of rules, is the ultimate factor. Of course, some people have better taste than others.

Beethoven, Stravinsky, Benjamin Britten, and Ralph Vaughan Willams all harmonized traditionsl tunes, as did the folks who bring us "Barney" and the "Teletubbies"--

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:17 PM

A few discords don't hurt. In fact they can work quite well, so long as the musicians are listening to each other.
..............................

A bodhran can really lift things, so long as there's only one. The important thing is that the bodhranplayer is playing the tune rather than trying to lay down a rhythm.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 08:30 PM

The original question was about what is reasonable in a session. That does NOT equate to what Willie Johnson could get away with after practicing with the same half-dozen fiddlers in the Lerwick Lounge for years, or what Britten and Stravinsky could expect a conservatoire-trained pianist to play off a score.

Playing a melody instrument in a session, my reaction to weird jazz chords is to feel faintly depressed. I'm there to try making the tune express something, and the guitarist is thundering out those chords (usually in very strange rhythms to boot) with their own expressive agenda which has nothing to do with the shape of the tune as I feel it and which I have no background knowledge of (and never will have, as guitarists who do that stuff are usually completely inarticulate). The obvious reaction is "I can't play this game, I'm outta here".

I've never heard of de Grae. Neither has YouTube.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 11:01 PM

I've come to the conclusion that the problem with a lot of guitar accompaniment is the way chords are described, learnt and reproduced. It seems to be taken as read that every note of every chord must be played, all the time and on every stroke of the plectrum. I've seen guitarists (and cittern/bouzouki players) in well-known bands thrashing instruments to within an inch of their lives. Can't say I've heard them - it's impossible to pick anything out from the wall of sound that results.

Presumably (and unfortunately), these are the people that your average session player is taking a lead from, rather than the expert players that Dick has alluded to. There are many other excellent players who could be put forward as great accompanists - Chris Newman and Arty McGlynn come to mind - but they are playing at levels of technical excellence to which most of us can only aspire from afar.

Can I suggest another approach? Throw away the plectrum. Learn to finger-pick. Limit yourself to finger and thumb to start with. Don't use thumb- or finger-picks. Suggest chords by picking out a couple of appropriate notes - leave things open to interpretation. Attempt to learn the tunes - even short phrases every now and then help vary the pattern.

And if people complain that they can't hear you - well, problem solved!

Ross

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 03:23 AM

Here's what I do when playing guitar in a session.

I start by listening to the tune (if I don't know it) and anticipating the possible harmonic content. I don't play a solid 3 to the bar or 4 to the bar with full chords all the time, but play occasional chords with a passing bass line which complements both the rhythm and the melody - with plenty of gaps.

I don't do what Jack Campin so sarcastically describes in his post of 24 Mar 09 - 08:30 PM. My role model for this sort of harmonic work, many years ago, was (for example) Martin Carthy's very sparse accompaniment to Dave Swarbrick in the late '60s.

Fingerpicking, in the context of the sessions I attend, is a no-no. The massed volume generated by, say, 2 concertinas, 3 fiddles, 2 mandolins, bodhran, melodeon, whistles, Northumbrian small pipes and occasionally an accordion en masse means that, for all practical purposes, the guitar is essentially a back seat instrument in any case. But, whether back seat or not, it's nice to get it "right" in the context of the session, and feel that you're contributing to - rather than detracting from - the overall sound.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Declan
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 03:46 AM

Well said Ross.

There are no accepted ways to put chords behind a tune, because ALL THE TUNES ARE DIFFERENT. It's a matter of learning which chords are generally associated with particular keys and learning to use your ears.

My best advice is not to play too loud until you know what you're doing and then don't play too loud - particulalrly if there are other backing instruments in a session. Many backing instruments in a session can work, but only if they are all listening to the tune (and each other).

The reason it is known as backing is that it should be in the background - audible but not 'sticking out'. The odd 'pagan' chord, as a friend of mine would describe them, can liven up an accompaniment but over use of them is jarring. Simple is usually better. If you find that a particular chord works well in a tune use it ocasionally. Remember that arrangements that have been put together by a band may only sound good in their particular arrangement of the tune.

If your ego doesn't let you stay in the background, you're probably playing the wrong instrument!

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Declan
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 04:02 AM

Will,
We cross posted so my comments were not in response to your post. My only comment on what you've said is that you need to listen to the tune at all times whether you know it or not. Not only are all the tunes different, renditions by different players (and often by the same player) are different.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 04:15 AM

No worries Declan - points taken, and indeed it's what I do every time I go to a session. To be honest, most of the ones I go to have the same hard core of people there and, over time, we've got used to each other. Newcomers then come along and adapt themselves to the existing pattern. We also get a sax player, a trumpet player and a trombone player from time to time - and New Orleans then raises its head!

We also play written material in the style, such as "Da Slockit Leet" "The Ashokan Farewell", "Horizonto" and "Puddleglum's Misery", etc. - and the chords for these - being composed tunes - are readily available. It would be wrong, for example, to play "Da Slockit Leet" (in D) without the wonderful F# in the penultimate line of the B part - a chord which raises the whole tune to a new level and an almost anthemic quality.

My original post was out of curiosity really - just to see whether, as with TheSession, etc., there were other repositories of knowledge, but in the harmonic rather than the melodic sphere.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 04:17 AM

Not that one is likely to find anyone singing "Blowing in the Wind" at a session, but I think I would probably disagree strongly with Greg Stevens about the minors. Quite a lot of the time I play majors where others prefer minors, but there are some cases when the minor is definitely "right". Try "We shall overcome". It can be done all in majors with some speedy shifts between the subdominant and the dominant, but in comparison with the use of a minor in those passages it does not come close to "right". Of course neither are traditional, and neither are "tunes".

I can't say I have ever found a useful set of chords for The Little Beggarman/Red Haired Boy/Insert other name of choice, and likewise (although it is not traditional) "Paddy McGinty's Goat", but I only play them under protest anyway, since I don't really approve of Irish tunes for morris sides.

John Kirkpatrick's "Jump at the Sun" (also not trad of course) seems to demand minors a lot.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:17 AM

Will Fly wrote:-
"2 concertinas, 3 fiddles, 2 mandolins, bodhran, melodeon, whistles, Northumbrian small pipes"

Therein lies another problem. The sheer number of instruments that characterise some sessions means that - quite aside from the clashing chords problem - the melody can just be an orchestral blur of sounds and masks the real joy of a small session where one can hear what individual musicians are contributing.

I suppose that, to an extent, the regular sessions in my area are a victim of their own success. I have complained about one of the sessions around here. I am not really Mr. Grumpy but now I am going to make adverse comments about another.

This session has been going for years and the overall standard of the musicianship has rocketed over the years, but just before Christmas I counted 25 musicians playing at the same time. More than once I found myself wondering which end of the room I should be joining in with, the playing was so out of sync.

Do we need to add another rule to Greg's list; one about the upper limit of numbers playing at any one time at a session?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:27 AM

A rule I try to follow(but dont always succeed) is "don't accompany a tune till you've you've tried playing it".

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 06:44 AM

Vic, your comment about the sheer size of some sessions is very true - victims of their own success. I attend an end-of month session which is very popular, and very different each month as attendees come and go - but it's usually packed. When, for whatever reason, it's less well-attended, the session is sometimes more satisfying. I wouldn't miss it for the world, but size does make a difference.

My own middle-of-the-month session, which has been going for around 5 months now, gets between 8 to 12 players - not all of whom play together all the time - and the feedback has been very positive. I guess it's a halfway house between a session and a singaround, but some of the shyer and not quite as experienced attendees have told me how much they like it because it's quieter and more intimate.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:14 AM

It is OK not to play at times and listen. I join in with familiar tunes and any new ones I like I go away and learn accompaniments to later;there is always the next session.
John

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:21 AM

Jack Campin: just google PaulDeGrae
        
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Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:22 AM

The size of sessions will always be a problem if they get too big. Luckily this is self-regulating, generally; people just stop coming, and maybe someone starts a rival so it splits like an amoeba.
    Physically, a session can't work if it is too big. People just can't hear each other, so the timing goes. There is also a question of acoustic physics: we all know that the speed of sound is finite, that if we see a batsman hit the ball there is then a time delay before we hear the impact. Just how this effects music is not always apparent to people, but it is an appreciable effect across a big stage, or across a big room. Twenty feet apart, people can't coordinate fast rhymic music. That is why you need monitors in front of you on a big stage, so that you hear your fellow musicians when they hit the notes, not a fraction of a second later. Same thing applies in a big room. Sound goes at 1000ish feet per second. That means it takes 1/50th of a second to cross 20ft of room. When you're playing a fairly fast fiddle tune, you are churning notes out at about ten per second.So the person at the other end of the room is hearing you a fifth of a note late.So if they plays what they think is in time with you, when their sound comes back to you, it is 2/5 of a note(nearly a half) later than when you played it. So it's hardly surprising that rhythmic precision is not possible at a big session. That's why big orchestras need conductors, they play in time with the beat given visually by a central person.
    It is perfectly satisfactory in a teaching situation to sit at the centre of a horseshoe of 30 fiddlers and share a tune. But I don't think that number of people can sit and pleasurably play tunes together in a big room in a pub. The rhythm will never be good enough for people to get off on the swing.
(Sorry, Will Fly, this has diverged from a discussion of "correct" guitar chords).

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:36 AM

Greg's physics is relevant to the original question - if you're in a resonant room, the echo will spell out the chords as you go. For John's Jig, you'll get something rather close to the chords I suggested being dictated to you from the ceiling. Play a chord that accentuates tones you aren't hearing in the tune, and the effect can be of some unrelated tune being played at the same time with the sound drifting in from outside.

I sometimes play in a very echoey pub. There's a show-off accordionist who often plays there - at the speed of his chord changes, the effect of his duet with himself via the ceiling is like something out of Charles Ives.