Accepted chords for traditional tunes

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:47 AM

Greg's physics is relevant to the original question - if you're in a resonant room, the echo will spell out the chords as you go.

I would agree - we're talking about the assonance and/or dissonance of multiple harmonies here - which is related to the overall sound coming out of the session.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM

Will Fly

"Da Slockit Leet" (in D) without the wonderful F# in the penultimate line of the B part

Eh? I play a Bb in the last line but all the Fs are sharp. I might make it to The Bull on Sunday; show me then. Mind you, I don't think DSL benefits from being played by 20+ people in a session. Far better with, for instance, two English concertina players.

At the Lewes Favourites practice session last night (allowing for a few posers playing more than one instrument) -

6 Fiddles
3 English concertinas
3 Anglo concertinas
2 Melodeons
1 BC button box
1 Banjo
1 Mouthorgan
1 Viola

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 08:13 AM

Da Slockeet Leet chords as I know them:

A:
D / / / D / / / G / D / Em / A /
D / / / D / / / G / A / D / / /                 
D / / / D / / / G / D / Em / A /
D / / / D / / / G / A / D / / G

B:
D / A / G / / / D / E / A / / G
D / A / G / / / Em / A / D / / G
D / A / G / / / G / D / Em / A /
D / / / F# / Bm / Em / A / D / / /

The F# is actually in the last bar line, but in the penultimate phrase of the tune...

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:34 PM

A recurring problem in sessions is that instruments fall out of synch, off-beat, or whatever you want to call it.

Greg Stephens pointed out that orchestras and such things have conductors who dictate the beat, and, in fact, smaller ensembles without conductors generally take the beat from a drummer, bass player, guitar, piano, or other chordal instrument. That is, in fact, the major role of a chordal instrument in any ensemble.

The thing is, in sessions, the lead player often sets the beat and everyone else, including the chordal/rhythm instruments is supposed to follow. "Follow" of course means that the nearest players get to the beat slightly after the lead, and the next nearest players get to the beat slightly later than the nearest players.

The effect is the same as that of a traffic jam, where the first driver hits the brake for a second, the second sees the brake lights and hits his brake for two seconds, and ultimately, a mile behind, everyone grinds to a standstill--

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:41 PM

Not really. What the competent rhythm instrument nearest to the lead does is learn what the lead is doing, and anticipate it so as to play in time. That is why the competent leader signals unexpected changes ahead of time. I try (but often fail) to watch the lead player and follow the fingers, if I am the other end of the room. With singers it is easier - the lips seldom lie (in this context) and the ribs (or flesh thereover) often give clues ahead of time.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 05:46 PM

Will Fly

The F# is actually in the last bar line, but in the penultimate phrase of the tune...

Ah, that's just where I'm playing my Bb. Could explain why it sounds a bit.... interesting.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 07:52 PM

smaller ensembles without conductors generally take the beat from a drummer, bass player, guitar, piano, or other chordal instrument. That is, in fact, the major role of a chordal instrument in any ensemble.

And that is where sessions aren't like that, most especially Irish sessions - the beat comes from the melody instruments, and any chordal or rhythm instruments follow that lead.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 08:45 PM

Well you couldn't take the beat from the bodhran player, could you?

I looked up Tom Anderson's published version of Da Slockit Light (in "Ringing Strings"). No chords given, but there is a second fiddle part, "written by an American student in 1979". The chords you get from that fiddle accompaniment are, I think:

  -|D - - -|D  - - -|G - D  -|G -  A7 -|
    D - - -|D  - - -|G - A7 -|D -  -  :|
  -|D - A -|G  - D G|D - E  -|A -  - - |
    D - A -|G  - - -|G - A  -|D -  - - |
    D - A -|G  - - -|G - D  -|G Em A D |
    D - - -|Bb - D -|G - A7 -|D -  - -||

So Bb it is, though I'd never have guessed it. Maybe the American student was copying a WillieJohnsonism?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Mar 09 - 11:36 PM

If the lead instrument is keeping the beat and playing the melody, then everyone else is pretty much extraneous.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 03:26 AM

I've just been looking at the score for Da Slockit. The first note of the B part 14th bar - the bar in which the F# chord is played - is F#. Now - how in all that's holy - how can that be a Bb? Here's the abc - relevant bar in boldface:

X: 1
T: Da Slockit Light
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
R: reel
K: Dmaj
FE|D3F A2d2|fedc d2A2|B2d2 A2d2|BAGF EGFE|D3F A2d2|fedc d2A2|B2G2 AGFE|D4- D2:|g2|f2a2 e3c|d3e dcBA|f2a2 e2^g2|a4- a2=g2|f2a2 e3c|d3e dcBA|B2G2 AGFE|D4- D3g|f2a2 e3c|d3e dcBA|B2d2 A2d2|BAGF EGFE|D3F A2d2|fedc d2A2|B2G2 AGFE|D4- D2|]

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: GUEST,Will Fly, on the hoof
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 04:19 AM

I didn't have time to add a little technical addendum to my previous post:

You can certainly play a Bb note against an F# chord because the F# triad contains the note of A#/Bb. But if you play an F# note against a Bb chord - major triad Bb D F natural - it'll sound as though you're pulling out the devil's public hairs. And - unless anyone has a truer version - the lead note in the bar in question is F#.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:03 AM

The idea of a Bb chord occurring anywhere in a "traditional-type" tune played in D is truly bizarre.

I actually love this modulation, in its place, (my shorthand pet name for it is the "Honey Don't" chord change, after Carl Perkins' eponymous song which relies heavily on this particular modulation) and the other song which springs to mind which uses it is the Beatles' "I Will", right at the end.

There are a number of blues/ragtime songs sung by Blind Blake which use this change to good effect as well, but I am afraid you are never going to hear it in any melody remotely connected to the Scottish/Irish/Celtic tradition.

And Will Fly is totally correct about the F#, absolutely the right chord at that point in "Da Slockit Light".

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:13 AM

I actually love this modulation, in its place, (my shorthand pet name for it is the "Honey Don't" chord change, after Carl Perkins' eponymous song which relies heavily on this particular modulation) and the other song which springs to mind which uses it is the Beatles' "I Will", right at the end.

It's a great modulation - as you say, in its place - and also comes in the closing bars of "Thanks For The Memory", to great effect.

But ye'll no find me playing it in Da Slockit!

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: GUEST,Will Fly, on the hoof
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:13 AM

Sorry - me above...

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:25 AM

Here are the melody and harmony of Da Slockit Light as we play them, slightly modified from "Ringing Strings" -

X:1
T:Da Slockit Light - melody
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
K:D
|:(FE)|(D3F) (A2d2)|fe dc d2A2|(B2d2)(A2d2)|(BA) GF (EG) FE|
(D3F) (A2d2)|(fe) dc (d2A2)|B2G2A[GA][ FA][EA]|[A,4-D4-][A,2D2]:|
zg|f2a2e3c|d3e (dc) BA|f2a2(e2^g2)|(a4a2)g2|
f2a2e3c|d3e (dc) BA|B2G2(AG) FE|D4-D3g|
f2a2e3c|d3e (dc) BA|(B2d2)(A2d2)|(BA) GF (EG) FE|
(D3F) (A2d2)|(fe) dc (d2A2)|B2G2A[GA][FA][EA]|[A,4-D4-][A,2D2]|]

X:2
T:Da Slockit Light - harmony
M:4/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=120
K:D
|:(FE)|(A,3D) (F2A2)|(dc) AG (F2D2)|G2B2F2A2|GF ED A,4|
(A,3D) (F2A2)|(dc) AG (F2D2)|G,4(A,3C)|[A,4-D4-][A,2D2]:|
zg|d2A2c3E|G4(FE) DC|D4(^G3E)|C6z2|
D4A4|G6(GF)|G2B,2A,B, A,C|A,4-A,3z|
D4C4|B,6GF|(G2B2)(F2A2)|(GF) (ED) A,4|
(A,3D) (F2A2)|_B4(F2D2)|G,4(A,3C)|[A,4-D4-][A,2D2]|]

It is a two line harmony. There are no chords in it. Can't see why a Bb note implies a Bb chord. Maybe it isn't a Bb but, as Will says, an A# so is compatible with an F# chord.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:27 AM

And, of course, bear in mind that the part was written by an American.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:43 AM

A lot of modern Shetland tunes have jazz influences (thanks to Willie Johnson and his radio tuned in to Schenectady) and Tom Anderson was a professional music teacher and pretty well educated about a lot of genres. I see no reason why he couldn't have meant that.

I've never played harmony on that tune but I've often heard something I didn't expect or understand going on in the background when doing the melody - a lot of Edinburgh folk guitarists have been influenced by Jimmy Elliot, who was doing the same sort of stuff as Willie Johnson at around the same time, but died quite young and didn't leave many recordings.

It would not be a good idea to pull out something like that unless you first made sure that anybody else playing an accompaniment part knew it was coming.

Actually the second fiddle part just has a held B flat note there. It occurs to me that it might simply be an A sharp written enharmonically, which would make the chord a first-inversion F#.

Anybody play F#min there?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 07:27 AM

Against a Bb note?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:54 PM

well how about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 05:55 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHTw9XjKMc

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:07 PM

This F# chord(with an A# aka Bflat in it) is the same as the E7 in C that all players of Freight Train know and love. Perfectly standard chord, nothing odd about it, and fine with Da Slockit Light.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:16 PM

Indeed it is - and the only reason I mentioned it in the first place was to say that the use of the F# in Da Slockit is to raise the mood of the piece towards the end of the tune - to make it, as a good friend of mine says, "anthemic".

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:33 AM

another alternative is to get away from standard guitar tuning.
this enables more options,with ease,for modal dyads,or chords without major or minor third,although these can be added if wanted when in a modal tuning.
next,look at different inversions,for example bars 4 and 5 Staten Island,instead of using e minor,one could use e modal,or a two fingered a7 shape, 002020 slid up to fifth fret 005050 ,giving you the notes
eaggee,this could be used instead of the conventional a7 shape.
the problem is that many accompanists do not experiment or are often unaware of all the different inversions available

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:00 AM

Do you really want an Eminor(or A7) chord in the fifth bar of Staten Island? I think most people would find a D pretty satisfactory.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:22 AM

that should have read fourth bar.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:06 AM

A lot of fascinating information here – my thanks to all contributors. Here are a few further thoughts from a latecomer with some experience of playing guitar in sessions.

Firstly it's worth remembering that you don't have to play all the time, and there are often good reasons for not doing so. If someone starts a tune you don't know, and the opening phrase tells you that it doesn't fit into a familiar pattern, sit back and enjoy it.   If you want to learn the tune, lay the pick aside and play along with bare fingers – in an averagely loud session, nobody but you will hear the mistakes.

Secondly, even when the tune is a familiar one, you must be prepared to adapt if the melody players are interpreting it in an unfamiliar way.   (This may mean shutting up entirely, or playing very quietly until you're in synch with their interpretation.)

Thirdly, you don't have to play every beat – and on very fast tunes it's usually better not to. Thrashing away at 6 or 9 beats to the bar on fast jigs or slip-jigs can produce a wall of noise that sounds unappealingly mushy – however fulfilling it may be as an athletic exercise for the player. Whereas a few rhythmic punctuation marks at appropriate points can really boot the tune along – and picking the right points to insert them is a real challenge for guitarists. (Especially during jigs that require no chords but Ami and G.)

Fourthly, you don't have to hit every string on the instrument every time. There are occasions when a two- or three-note stab makes a more incisive comment than a six-string chord. A well-chosen bass line also enhances many tunes – or why not try playing the melody? (If it's good enough for Doc Watson …)

Finally, on Greg's point that one guitarist per session is enough, and more only get in the way, I beg to disagree. IMHO it depends on how resourceful (and how tasteful) the guitarists are – and on how much attention they pay to each other and to the melody instruments.

Agreed, if one guitarist sticks to beating out first-position chords in a steady rhythm, then duplicating that will add nothing except extra volume to the mix. But a second (or third) guitarist can still enrich the sonic texture by using different chord shapes further up the neck – or by developing an interesting bass line - or by inserting a few tasteful rhythmic accents on appropriate beats. (If it was good enough for Eddie Lang and Lonnie Johnson …)

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:18 AM

a very good way of learning how to accompany a tune,is to either learn to play or sing the tune.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Tradsinger
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:54 AM

This has been an interesting and generally well-informed discussion. Can I throw in my fourpennyworth.

There are a number of tunes in minor modes (let's take Em) as an example, where a change to a chord of C can be very effective (or F if you are in Am). For example, in the Swallow Tail jig, we used to play the sequence Am G Am Em, but now play Am G F Em. This gives a nice run down on the bass and sounds good, even though it is a slight dischord. Another example might be the morris version of Greensleeves, where you can play the first 4 chords as Am G F Em, and it also works in the Bear Dance B music, etc.

The other point that I have noticed recently is that some bands/musicians will end a musical phrase not on the chord of the Tonic but on the chord of the Dominant. In other words, if you are in G (think of, say, the Oyster Girl). end the tune on the note of G but play a D chord against it. It's a dischord of course, but it says, 'we haven't finished with this tune yet, there's more to come.' The Askew Sisters are particularly good at this technique and you can hear it in other groups as well (Faustus for example). You can't really do it in a session as it would produce a horrible clash, but in a group it can work.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:26 AM

There are lots of possible ambiguities in major/minor relationships which can make for some interesting harmonies, but which can also - as my original post suggested - make for some interesting dischords.

An example. I play a solo fingerstyle version of The Cuckoo's Nest in G (fits nicely under the fingers on guitar). The common opening chords to this are:

G / / / G / / / G / / / G / / /
Am / / / Am / / / Am / / / Am / / /

I actually play:

G / / / G / / / G / / / G / / /
Am / / / Am / / / F / / / F / / /

which is rather a nice shading in the 2nd 4 bars and a bit more subtle than a solid Am all the way through. The subtlety, of course, is the in the substitution of an F note for an E note in the Am and F major triads.

It's fine as a solo but I might hesitate at playing that particular change if others were involved...

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 06:31 AM

thanks trad singer and will fly.
of course I would not put in the chords I was suggesting,if there was another guitarist playing more conventional chords.
I generally listen and look at another guitarist,before plunging in.
it is another reason why I find smaller sessions enjoyable.
now here is a tune that is interesting The Blarney Pilgrim,I reckon this tune is in d modal,with the middle section in g.
some people assume it is in g major,although G modal doesnt sound too bad .
if Iam playing with someones who is playing it with g major chords ,Iplay it with no double stopping or chords,If Iam playing it on my own or with another melody player,I use more chording.
here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXsYa0Benws&feature=channel_page
whats your taken on the key,and the chord progressions WillFly

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 07:08 AM

Wheee! Dick - just had a great time playing along with the "Blarney Pilgrim". Dm is a nice key for it, and I enjoyed a whole raft of chord substitutions in the themes. For example, in the opening theme, I experimented with: (each mark being 3 of the 6/8)

Dm / Dm / G / C / D / ...and then
Dm / F / G / C / D /

I also tried various substitutions with the other sections - too numerous to name here. However, what seemed to me to be important here was that, if I was playing along with you, I'd be concentrating less on chords than on getting an appropriate bass line that wove into the tune in a melodic and rhythm way. Counterpointing, yet underpinning, if you get my drift!

PS: Have you heard Duck Baker's take on this on solo guitar? Excellent version.

PPS: Would have loved to see your fingering on the video...

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 07:38 AM

Mike of Northumbria disagrees with me about one guitarist at any one time being enough in a session. He gives the example of Eddie Lang and Lonnie Johnson's guitar duets. I will say right now that if Eddie and Lonnie come to the session in the Greyhound, Penkhull, tomorrow(Wed April 1), I will make an exception to the rule. They will be welcome to play a guitar duet. Preferably Bullfrog Blues, but anything will do.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 07:44 AM

Hang on Greg, I'll just do a paint job on one of my old guitars - a shade of blue would just about do it, I think... (I wish).

A local gig stops me from dashing up to Penkhull to hear you play tomorrow, but I'll be roaming aimlessly around the area in the first week in May floating from club to club as the mood and opportunity take me. Is the Boat Band doing anything in England in that week?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Shaw Farmer
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:53 AM

i'm new to this forum, be gentle. i come from a jazz background in music , guitar mainly but also a little trumpet.

with folk music, it seems as all the tunes r harmonically simple, you can really play whatever you like.. isn't that the point? you arrange it to suit your style? for example... over a G major based melody.. e.g notes-

G A B C D E F#

You can play secondary harmony (e.g m7, MAJ7, DOM7, b7#5) if approached in the right way..look at Bellowhead, or that collaboration that never made it- Paraellagram

yes..if your in a folk session,playing these chords may not work with what other people are playing, but if you do play these chords while another guitarist plays other chords then your an idiot... the point of a 'session' is to LISTEN to other players.. interact etc etc.. not stop playing because someone else is, or play like everyone else to the lowest common denominator..LISTEN, JAM, INTEREACT and just PLAY!

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Zen
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:10 AM

LISTEN, JAM, INTERACT and just PLAY!

Amen to that... should be on the wall at all sessions!

Zen

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:13 AM

Shaw Farmer,What you say is interesting,particularly if you come from a JAZZ BACKGROUND.
Sometimes the approach is different in traditional music,hence the fondness for open tunings,and the avoidance to some extent of major and minor thirds[Martin Carthy is a good example],these modal chords still often have added 7,9, 11,etc,but are much more ambiguous.
some guitarists have followed an alternative route[WillieJohnson] which is more jazz influenced,neither [imo]is right or wrong.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:15 AM

I've also played jazz - 5 years in a mainstream band plus outings from time to time with other musicians - and the kind of interaction you describe is common (though nothing is quite like the drunken conversations I've heard between two Sunday lunchtime jazz session players over whether such-and-such a chord is a diminished major demented or a minor shredded repented...).

Traditional folk sessions are somewhat different, however, mainly because many of the tunes are indeterminate and with no written harmonic content. If I play, say, "All The Things You Are" in Ab, there's a strong chance that other jazzers at the session will fit in with what I play - if only because the music was formally composed in the first place and the harmonic background is more or less common knowledge. Not the same with many traditional tunes, where a choice of harmonic progression is not so clear. Furthermore, when one "tune" in a session is usually two or three separate tunes played end-to-end, there's not always an opportunity to lay back and meld chords with another chord player. OK if one leads - but no always so easy.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM

i'm new to this forum, be gentle. i come from a jazz background in music , guitar mainly but also a little trumpet.

with folk music, it seems as all the tunes r harmonically simple, you can really play whatever you like.. isn't that the point? you arrange it to suit your style? for example... over a G major based melody.. e.g notes-

G A B C D E F#

You can play secondary harmony (e.g m7, MAJ7, DOM7, b7#5) if approached in the right way..

That seems symptomatic of an attitude you often get from jazz musicians coming into the folk scene - i.e. condescension and contempt for the material.

No you CAN'T play whatever you like. Folktunes have their own expressive world, we do NOT see them as simply something to egotrip over. They are tiny, but each one has been be shaped to say something unique.

I think this attitude in jazz comes from the period in the mid-20th century when it derived much of its raw material from Broadway ahows. That material was garbage - sentimental slop, aural security blankets for white Readers Digest readers - but the mostly black jazz musicians of the time had to use it because that was where the money was. So they spent decades steadily tearing the stuff up and reworking it beyond the point of recognizability. They knew their raw material was shite and treated it accordingly. The result was often brilliant, but it was an artistic triumph that succeeded in spite of its origins.

We do NOT appreciate our tradition being treated as if it was Cole Porter or Lerner & Loewe, thanks.

Actually the nastiest example of jazzifying folk I can think of doesn't involve harmony at all. It's Annie Grace's take on "The Trees They Grow So High". She distorts the rhythm and dynamics to make it sound like a Billie Holiday number. It's completely inappropriate to the content of the song, just pisses all over it.

look at Bellowhead, or that collaboration that never made it- Paraellagram

I only know the Bellowhead "E.P. Onymous" CD and wasn't very impressed (mainly because of the lead vocalist's terrible breath control, gasping for air at the end of every phrase).

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Sean Mc
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:10 PM

When did folk music get so feckin serious? The whole point of it is lost in such turgid detail. So the odd set of tunes goes astray - what the heck !!! And when it really works it makes those moments even more fulfilling. If you want rigid perfection and homogonous reproduction, join a bloody orchestra.

Here endeth the rant......

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM

Well, the whole point of this thread started from an acceptance of the fact that, when playing in a traditional tunes session, anyone accompanying the tunes on a harmonically more complex instrument than, say, a whistle, has to have some sensitivity to the nature of the music and its potential harmonic content, and play accordingly. Of course there are some tunes where you can let rip.

I recall one exhilarating session where we played "Puddleglum's Misery" - a written tune, I grant you - with alto sax, guitar, trombone, trumpet, melodeons, fiddles, etc., and it swung like hell, with improvisations weaving in and out of each other. But you wouldn't want that on "The Wild Hills of Whannies" - or, at any rate, I wouldn't.

Over the years, I've played traditional music, blues, '20s dance music, jazz, rock'n roll and '60s funk - before coming back to traditional music - and I didn't treat those different musical genres in the same way as each other. Each demanded a different attitude and a different approach and technique.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:54 PM

"we do NOT see them as simply something to egotrip over."

REALLY...? Postings on this site say exactly the opposite

" i.e. condescension and contempt..."
your whole posting drips with that you profess to despise.

and yes..? when did traditional songs and music become so damned serious. I came into the scene many years ago with one aim in mind and one only, to have some fun and I intend to carry on THAT tradition.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:14 PM

I came into the scene many years ago with one aim in mind and one only, to have some fun and I intend to carry on THAT tradition.

My reason for making music has always been to have fun, otherwise I wouldn't do it, but I think the greatest fun occurs when you play with other people in such a way that the ensemble makes the "best" sound. Define "best" according to taste.

So - fun, yes - but not at the expense of others' fun. I repeat: precisely the reason for this thread - to play in a way that fits the music in a sensitive way. The musicians in this thread, as it happens, have stayed relatively sensitive to each others' statements, but I can see the usual Mudcat wrangles starting... Isn't it obvious by now that a civilised discussion on a technical point is so much more productive than mudcat slinging?

(Sighs, picks up banjo, bodhran and Strat and gets coat...)

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:32 PM

I recall one exhilarating session where we played "Puddleglum's Misery" - a written tune, I grant you - with alto sax, guitar, trombone, trumpet, melodeons, fiddles, etc., and it swung like hell, with improvisations weaving in and out of each other. But you wouldn't want that on "The Wild Hills of Whannies" - or, at any rate, I wouldn't.

Wild Hills o Wannies is a tune I often play as a solo showpiece - it's not widely known in Scotland anyway, and what I do is very ornate, based on Billy Pigg's version but evolved over the 25 years since I last heard it, and in D minor to fit the treble recorder. There is only one other person who can follow that melodically and she isn't often in a session with me. So the texture is typically just me + a roomful of guitars. In that situation, experimental harmonies work - the guitarists can hear and respond to each other very well and never settle into quite the same groove twice.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:40 PM

I have the Billy Pigg recording of the "Wild Hills Of Whannies", and very beautiful it is. I've never thought of an accompaniment for it. There's a musician* in Sussex who plays it at local sessions on Northumbrian small pipes and we sit back and listen while he plays it as a solo - just for the sheer pleasure of hearing him play it.

*Derrick Hughes - you can see him playing the small pipes on video in the thread I posted today about the Twagger Band.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCUVvVrlkws&feature=channel_page

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:18 PM

Dick - there's something in the way you play it reminds me of Copsaholme Fair. Is there any connection between the two tunes, do you know?

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Declan
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:28 PM

While the rudeness is totally unnecessary, I agree with Jack's basic point that traditional music is not jazz or rock music and backing it as if it was never sounds right (to me) and also with Will that it's much more fun when it's done with sensitvity than approached in an I'm only here for the craic way (Help I'll be saying Good enough for folk in a minute!).

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:27 PM

Sorry,Will,I dont know Copsaholme Fair.
I enjoyed your versiom of Angi.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:40 PM

It was the Bellowhead version of Copshawholme Fair (correct spelling this time) that reminded me of the Wild Hills. The only version I can find on the Tube is Steeleye Span - which is not the same...

Thanks for the kind words on Angi, Dick - it seems a long time ago that I ever played that in a club. The YouTube version was done as a request, as no-one had played a version on the Tube that was anywhere near Davy Graham's original.

Subject: RE: Accepted chords for traditional tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:19 PM

Bellowhead's "Copshaw Fair" and "Wild Hills o Wannies" have the same ancestor - they're both variants of the 18th century Scottish jig "The Hills [or Braes] of Glenorchy".