BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM

OOps! It's eight years old. Was Seattle really eight years ago?? I can't keep up with the revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 02:45 PM

Hell I'm still wondering when they fixed the ozone hole and moved on to CO2.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:37 PM

Lox....I have nothing against "spics, darkies, yids and micks"(your words,I don't even know the meaning of "spics"). Immigrants were encouraged to come here by our government for the political and economic reasons I have posted above, you accept that as fair, yet smear anti- capitalist activists as foreign vandals.
Capitalism is global, and humanity should be united against it.
I see all colours and creeds as part of the human family, but capitalist governments exploit the workforce of poorer nations to drive down the conditions of their own people. You seem to see no wrong in that, so which of us is the racist?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:43 PM

Heric thanks for that link.....very interesting.
If I didn't live so far away, I would definitely be among the demonstrators in London.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM

Nothing more useless than these demonstrations. Any who riot deserve broken heads.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:33 PM

"yet smear anti- capitalist activists as foreign vandals"

where?


There will be people coming to london this week who intend to "get stuck in". Some will be from abroad, some will be (as you may note I said in the first post that you have very selectively responded to) from "out of town".

I don't know about you, but I am not such an arrogant Londoner as to see people from out of town as foreigners.



So I am clearly not talking about foreigners but people who go to events like this with the intention of "getting stuck in".


I know people who have travelled overseas to take part in Demos who have packed their trendy PLO scarf to wrap around their face in anticipation of geting "stuck in when it all kicks off".

I've been on the front line at demos and watched people like that spoil for a fight.

So I know exactly who I'm talking about and I have categorized them according to their methods not their nationality.

My category is specifically as follows - rioters who are non resident in a place where they intend to deliberately cause damage and destruction, and who will not have to live in the mess they have created nor bear the cost of the clean up, that privilege being set aside especially for those on the bottom rungs of the ladder whose lives will as a consequence be a bit harder.

Fly in, bus in, train in ... smash it up ... fly out etc.

Ok - so we're clear on that point now.


And isn't it a lovely irony that the people who clear up after them and fix the damage will most likely be immigrants from Eastern Europe and Africa ... most of the street cleaners and builders around my way are anyway.


I know who I'd rather have around.


But why are we talking about foreigners anyway?

Oh I remember - because that was your cue to start complaining about "them" coming over here and taking our jobs - well if any unemployed Brits are willing to help clean up the mess I reckon there'll be plenty of vacancies.

I retract the terms "spics, darkies, yids and micks" and replace them with your term:- "foreigners"

It sounds so much more palatable.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 08:35 PM

"Murder rates are highest in cities with populations greater than 250,000 and decline for each decreasing city-size category, to a low of 3.0 per 100,000 for cities under 10,000. A similar pattern is seen for robbery, where arrest rates are over six times higher in the largest, as opposed to the smallest, cities. However, there are no clear differences in arrest rates across city size categories for the crime of larceny-theft. Although rural-urban distinctions based exclusively on size of place are not ideal, this pattern of a strong relationship between city size and violent crime rates and weaker relationships for property crimes generally holds for several different societies and in several different historical periods."

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1990/Rural-Crime-Urban-rural-crime-differences.html

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 09 - 11:32 PM

Thanks, heric.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:30 AM

Last night I saw a study saying that incidents of violent crime were more prevalent in the small sized cities than in large cities and rural areas (don't remember where I saw it, though). Kind of hard to know what to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:35 AM

The homicide rate in Alaska is preposterously low (13/683,478 = .019 on the Giok scale), only 35% higher than UK, and less than half of the American tradition. They must never find the bodies. (13 murdered against 2800 or so "missing.")

But we digress.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:03 AM

heric, where did you find those stats? Here is what I found:

The Year: 2007

Murder rate per 100,000 people

Louisiana        14.2
Maryland        9.8
Alabama               8.9
New Mexico        8.2
South Carolina        8.0
Georgia               7.5
Nevada               7.5
Arizona               7.4
Mississippi        7.1
Arkansas        6.7
Michigan        6.7
Florida               6.6
Missouri        6.5
North Carolina        6.5
Alaska               6.4

California comes in at 6.2.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 06:57 AM

There will be people coming to London this week who intend to "get stuck in". Some will be from abroad, some will be (as you may note I said in the first post that you have very selectively responded to) from "out of town".

Sounds no different to a football (soccer) match!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:16 AM

By the way Ake, I would like to make clear that I don't believe you are racist.

It would indeed be totally against the grain of your otherwise thought provoking perspectives.

I do think you've gone and dug yourself into a hole after first being suckered in by the most facile and easy to swallow bit of resentment baiting that the far right has to offer.

Unlike many other preposterous ideas, you don't have to dig very deep for very long to expose that legal working immigrants in this country contribute to the economy and the quality of our lives in infinitely greater measure than they detract from it.

I totally reject the age old rubbish that foreigners come over here and take our jobs.

And here's a glimpse of why.

There was unemployment before the windrush came (up to 25% during the depression), there was unemployment of about 2% consistently after the windrush came, there was unemployment after Idi Amin drove ethnic Indians out of Uganda (around 3% and that stayed the same till about 1976-77 when it went up to around 6% where it stayed till about 1980).

So far so good ... the age of immigration seems to have been very positive in terms of employment in the UK.

It certainly isn't any worse than the periods before either of the two wars, from 1890 to 1910 or through the 20's and 30's.

Between 1980 and 2000 there have been fluctuations going up to about 12 percent at the maximum, but ultimately coming back down to around 6%.

From 2000 to 2009, it has been pretty low averaging around 3%

In Addition to this, the quality of people jobs has improved and with them, peoples expectations.

There is evidence for all of the above
here

and
here

Of those unemployed, how many were out of work because their job was "stolen" by a foreigner, how many because they saw themself as too good for the jobs available, and how many have inherited a life of dependance on the state from thier parents grandparents.

And yes, I know that the above analysis is extremely simplistic, however, compared to the view that all the jobs have gone to foreigners it looks like an exhaustively researched Phd.

You know what I think? If we got rid of all our foreigners there would still be unemployment.

And the theory you have so gladly bought into would require another scapegoat -

- women (don't forget that there are a lot more women working today than there were 50 years ago - tsk - stealing our jobs) ...

... jews ... it happened not that long ago in modern, civilized progressive scientific Germany - why are we any better than those Germans who took the bait then? we're all human.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:38 AM

While we're on this tack, I just wonder, as unemployment in the UK grows, how many British people would consider taking the big step of seeking work in another country.

I did it in 1976 when I was unemployed – I went to South Africa for 2 years until they threw me out (I guess my views didn't quite fit in with those of the apartheid-supporting government of the time).

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 09:44 AM

Ebbie I'm helpless with numbers, but I used 13 from here:

http://gov.state.ak.us/omb/results/view_details.php?p=136

(But now I see that's "within Alaska State Trooper Jurisdiction")

and used ppopulation number (683,478) from some other web site.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:05 AM

I would never condone criminal activities. After all, once Freddie Goodwin has been hung from a tree, they might come for me because my face doesn't fit either. The they might look at your face. And his, oh and hers.

The UK is a democracy. Fighting is done at the ballot box. Nobody does badly and we have all won the lottery. Full stop,

Even if you live on basic benefits, you have won the lottery. Full stop.

Go to those countries where direct action sways politicians and you will see why a UK resident has won the lottery. Mind you, if you do go, make sure you agree with the trouble makers.

I thought I was on Mudcat, not some reactionary hippie version of the Daily Mail....

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:30 AM

"I thought I was on Mudcat, not some reactionary hippie version of the Daily Mail.... "

Ah, Ian, so you don't think that discussion of one of the major political issues for decades; that affects the livelihoods of millions of people, merits discussion on Mudcat. Well, of course, what would a bunch of hippies know about serious politics?

Once you've removed your head from the sand, it may interest you that one of the major organisers of the rally on 2nd April is Put People First, described by The New Statesmen as:

"The coalition...is a new alliance of unions, non-governmental organisations and religious groups, armed with a manifesto that aims to rewrite the rules of the global economy. Put People First has already created a significant alliance – more than a hundred groups from Greenpeace to the Dalit Solidarity Network via the NUJ and the Muslim Council of Britain have signed up so far."

Like you say, just a bunch of hippies.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 10:44 AM

Perhaps a bunch of people from all walks of life having a quiet protest is a tradition of this country. Perhaps I may even agree that the boom bust of fiscal policy does not fit the international "village" that economists have been taught to pray on the alter of.

But this thread started with idiots claiming that breaking the law is a good thing.

That is what I object to.

I read some good debates on mudcat, hence I still have a browse now and then. I agree with some, disagree with others and sometimes put my view. However, the reactionary "us & them" twaddle in some comments on this thread DO remind me of The Daily Mail. the constituency may not be middle England and the subject isn't asylum seekers affecting house prices... but the vitriol and acceptance of criminal activity is frankly disturbing.

If a thread is by it's title, condoning violence and criminal activity, I have every right to blow raspberries at it. And will do.

Oh, and I will be in London on Wednesday actually. However, I will be in my office getting on with doing far more productive for the country than standing outside giving respectability for a bunch of anarchists.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 11:46 AM

1.        "How then do the dispossessed regain what was theirs but by renouncing politics and law in favour of what they can control? They will of course lose the pitched battle, for politics and law control the armies.

That leaves guerilla warfare.

Burn baby burn." – Richard Bridge exemplar of the English Legal Profession

2.        "Looks like it's going to be a very hot summer - bring on the revolution!" – theleveller

3.        Descriptions of those protesting – "well-educated individuals conducting an organized assault" – "likely to be young, highly motivated, well-educated individuals"

Guest Lox mentioned "Protest Tourists" probably like these individuals:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7972231.stm

To Richard Bridge and theleveller I rather hope that if there are any such other "clowns" out there similarly equipped and like minded that both of you will have the good grace to tamp down all yells of police brutality and over reaction if any of them get their bloody silly heads blown off.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:08 PM

Let's hear it for vigilantism. Why just Sir Freddie - I know other bankers too, they are high up in their organisation, so they must be pretty evil; let's put a few bricks of justice through their windows too. And then we'll take a copy of the sex offenders' register and petrol-bomb the cars of a few registrants, while they are safely parked of course and with nobody inside. By the time our appetite will really be whetted so we'll take on a few xxxxxxxxxxs .

Dictators rely on such thinking to build their support. Quick, sign up now and you'll get the shirt for free.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:10 PM

for xxxxxxxxx's: insert preferred brand of deviant/offender/ethically suspect person.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 12:44 PM

I was pm-ed by a "respectable" UKer who made the point that in the UK there is a tradition of physically assaulting buildings and other properties with the intent of protest that is readily understood.

I don't understand the concept, frankly. It reminds me forcibly of peasants and serfs attacking the barns and buildings of their feudal overlords.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:03 PM

Here's a map and rough chronology of London official and protest events:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=51.507674,-0.022316&spn=0.160479,0.307617&z=12&msid=112463924814795169379.000466514a7de99534cde

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:13 PM

The Peasants Revolt

"In June 1381, Kentish rebels formed behind Wat Tyler and joined with rebels from Essex and marched on London. When the rebels arrived in Blackheath on June 12, the renegade Lollard priest, John Ball, preached a sermon including the famous question that has echoed down the centuries: "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?".
The following day, the rebels, encouraged by the sermon, crossed London Bridge into the heart of the city. Meanwhile the 'Men of Essex' had gathered with Jack Straw at Great Baddow and had marched on London, arriving at Stepney.

Instead of what was expected from a riot however, there was only a systematic attack on certain properties, many of them associated with John of Gaunt

Although the Revolt is generally considered a failure, it did succeed in showing the peasants that they were of some value and had some power. In the longer term, the revolt became a formative influence upon the radical tradition within British politics"

- Wiki

John Ball, by Sydney Carter

Who will be the lady, Who will be the lord,
When we are ruled By the love of another?
Tell me, Who will be the lady, Who will be the lord,
In the light that is coming In the morning.

Chorus
Sing, John Ball
And tell it to them all -
Long live the day that is dawning!
And I'll crow like a cock,
I'll carol like a lark,
For the light that is coming
In the morning.

Eve is the lady, Adam is the lord,
When we are ruled By the love of another,
oh it's Eve is the lady, Adam is the lord,
In the light that is coming In the morning.

Chorus

All shall be ruled By fellowship I say,
All shall be ruled By the love of one another,
All shall be ruled By fellowship I say,
In the light that is coming In the morning.

Chorus

Labour and spin For fellowship I say,
Labour and spin For the love of one another.
Labour and spin For fellowship I say,
And the light that is coming In the morning.

-- John Ball, priest, social reformer. (hanged 1381)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 01:21 PM

"John Ball, priest, social reformer. (hanged 1381)"

Ah. I see. It did him a lot of good. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:01 PM

Revolting Peasants website and just for good measure heres ours http://www.myspace.com/harriwattsband because we know them.......have a wonderful day

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Maryrrf
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:17 PM

I find it easy to sympathize with these protestors on an emotional level but I don't think these kinds of actions accomplish anything. Peaceful marches, demonstrations, and other types of grassroots movements that don't involve violence are a better option. Things were different in the middle ages. The peasants back then had it much worse, had far fewer options, and the times were just much more rough and violent anyway. To cavalierly dismiss John Ball is a little bit facetious, I think. John Ball suffered grieviously for his beliefs and actions, but inspired reformers for many generations to come with his eloquence and sincerity.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 02:45 PM

Ebbie the English have an inexplicable affection for 'Heroic Failure' - how else would you explain Eddie 'the Eagle' Edwards?

To keep the musical tributes to protest going.....

World Turned Upside Down - live from the Tolpuddle Festival

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: meself
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:25 PM

How 'heroic' is tossing a rock through a window? How about throwing a brick at a cop?

Just wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 03:56 PM

"I will be in my office getting on with doing far more productive for the country than standing outside giving respectability for a bunch of anarchists. "

Well bully for you. In your smug self-satisfaction I don't suppose you'll be sparing a thought for those hundreds of thousands of people who, like me, have lost their jobs because of the actions of a load of greedy, morally bankrupt financiers. But as we are now anarchists as well as hippies, perhaps you'd like to add, despite my having worked for over 40 years, 'layabouts' and 'spongers'. Quite frankly, people like you make me sick.


"To Richard Bridge and theleveller I rather hope that if there are any such other "clowns" out there similarly equipped and like minded that both of you will have the good grace to tamp down all yells of police brutality and over reaction if any of them get their bloody silly heads blown off."

Let me repeat, for those who haven't got the message yet: "My views on guns for any reason are well-known". By that, I mean that I abhor all firearms. One reason for this is that my eldest son is a member of a police ARU (armed response unit)who has to face armed criminals. Now, teribus, have you finally got that or are you going to continue with your usual practice of distorting what other people say?

"Dictators rely on such thinking to build their support. Quick, sign up now and you'll get the shirt for free."

No, George, dictators maintain their positions by not pallowing any form of protest and brutally surpessing any form of opposition. It's people having the courage to protest about the abuses in society that get things changed - like the slave trade, supression of women's rights, child labour, the death penalty etc. - all perfectly legal until someone had the courage to stand up against the wrath of the establishment and say that they were wrong. Folk music is full of songs about them. Read Emma's post above.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:26 PM

To put things in a wider context, you will note that I said I had been on the front line of protests where I had witnessed some people spoiling for fights with the cops.

Well something to draw from that comment is that I support the principle of demonstration and support the vast majority of the demonstrators who will be voicing legitimate concernes in a legitimate way.

I may even join them.

But being a resident in London, not too far from canary wharf, I am concerned that the destruction and violence could affect my community in a deeply damaging way.

My reason for this has been the newspaper reports talking of the police preparations and their tough talking/scaremongering.

It is being hyped up as quite the battle.

Like I said - I hope not.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Emma B
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:42 PM

" the newspaper reports talking of the police preparations and their tough talking/scaremongering." - self predicticting prophesy? I hope not but......

Harvey Kershaw's Peterloo as sung by The Oldham Tinkers

From Peterloo to the Pankhursts a radical legacy

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 04:54 PM

"...bring on the revolution!" – theleveller.

I take it therefore leveller that your son, the member of a police ARU is looking forward to this revolution as keenly as you appear to be, because believe me irrespective of what your views on guns for any reason are, in this revolution at one point or other they will be used - and your son, with his gun, will have to respond. Perhaps the "clowns" detained in Plymouth were intent on travelling to the G20 to provoke just such an incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 05:42 PM

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice

Excerpt:

Squeezing the oligarchs, though, is seldom the strategy of choice among emerging-market governments. Quite the contrary: at the outset of the crisis, the oligarchs are usually among the first to get extra help from the government, such as preferential access to foreign currency, or maybe a nice tax break, or—here's a classic Kremlin bailout technique—the assumption of private debt obligations by the government. Under duress, generosity toward old friends takes many innovative forms. Meanwhile, needing to squeeze someone, most emerging-market governments look first to ordinary working folk—at least until the riots grow too large.

Eventually, as the oligarchs in Putin's Russia now realize, some within the elite have to lose out before recovery can begin. It's a game of musical chairs: there just aren't enough currency reserves to take care of everyone, and the government cannot afford to take over private-sector debt completely."

Substitute "UK" or "US" for "emerging markets."

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:48 PM

But being a resident in London, not too far from canary wharf, I am concerned that the destruction and violence could affect my community in a deeply damaging way." Guest/lox

There are those, lox, who appear to feel that as long as it is not their own community they are perfectly willing to have other   communities affected in deeply damaging ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 07:51 PM

Look. You are being oppressed. You have the choice of kissing arse and hoping for rewards. Or you learn, most recently in UK history, from the IRA. You blow the (insert suitable epithet) up. I think they were wrong, but their methods succeeded.

FFS go and read your Marx. The failure of capitalism (acknowledged even today in the far-right-wing Evening Standard to be unstable) will lead to revolution.

Gentility will not bring change.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:05 PM

Richard Bridge, history seems to show us that violence and persecution are not a good road to change. Historically they put people's backs up. Look at England in the last big war, or more recently look at what has happened in Israel and Palestine.

As someone once said, since negotiation is what ends most wars, why not negotiate first?

Frankly, I don't close to understanding how a person who practices law and presumably has a grasp on the concept can advocate lawlessness and feel comfortable with inciting violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 30 Mar 09 - 08:57 PM

The plan seems a little fuzzy around the edges.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:10 AM

"Look. You are being oppressed. You have the choice of kissing arse and hoping for rewards. Or you learn, most recently in UK history, from the IRA. You blow the (insert suitable epithet) up. I think they were wrong, but their methods succeeded." - Richard Bridge

Richard, the IRA succeeded in nothing apart from being directly responsible for the deaths of about 2,100 of their own countrymen and maiming and injuring many thousands more. In doing so they economically destroyed the the communities they operated in, and still to this day leave behind them an atmosphere of hate and intimidation - but then I forgot that's the type of "justice" that you'd opt for.

If you doubt what I have said above Richard take a good look at the PSNI and its constitution. Policing was one of the base causes for complaint, the "new" police service had to be repesentative of the community it served. So Richard after thirty plus years (Some might say taking recent events into mind that we are still in it) of "The Troubles" we have a police service that is predominantly protestant now you tell me was it worth it. Everything, repeat everything, that has been gained politically in Northern Ireland the NICRA were on the verge of winning about forty years ago - the "Official IRA" realised that and stayed out of it, the "Provisional IRA" did not and managed to delay political advancement in Northern Ireland for three decades. And you Mr Bridge would not know "oppression" if it jumped up and bit you in the arse, you want to go to a few places around the world where it exists, then come back to the UK and actually explore the avenues available to you to implemment change peacefully - heaving bricks through the windows of people you don't happen to like is not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:31 AM

"in this revolution at one point or other they will be used - and your son, with his gun, will have to respond."

Completely disagree that the use of guns is inevitable in a revolution(certainly not the sort of revolution I am advocating). As usual, you are putting forward the most extreme scenario possible simply on the fact that a bunch of idiots has been found possessing FAKE guns with no proof that these were intended for use during the forthcoming protests.

revolution (CHANGE)   noun [C]
a very important change in the way that people do things

revolutionary   adjective
completely new and having a great effect:

revolutionize, UK USUALLY revolutionise   verb [T]
to completely change something so that it is much better:

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:36 AM

There is a very thin line between the "do nothing liberal" and the rabid Fascist. In the Europe of the 1930's and 40's, do you think that the Italian, German, and Spanish people did not see what was happening to their societies?
The vast majority were just like you, apathetic, frightened to lose what they believed they had, but in reality had not.....every thing could be "fixed", all they needed was a strong leader!
The people who opposed Fascism right from the start, were the anarchists and Communists, they died in their thousands fighting against tyranny and later in Hitlers death camps; their passing barely acknowleged by the "liberals" of today, who are so busy fighting their own brave battles against golliwogs and Popes.

Richard is so right....time to grasp the nettle, the chance won't come again.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:11 AM

Looks like the trouble has already started. Those Conservatives - right load of bloody troublemakers.

"Journalists, politics and drink have long been suspected of being a volatile mix, but the recipe may have been even more combustible than usual last night when police used CS spray to break up a fight in the House of Commons.

An argument that appears to have started at a Conservative party reception spilt over into a neighbouring part of the Palace of Westminster. One man - thought to be a journalist - was arrested in the fracas in which a police officer received minor injuries. "

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:24 AM

Ake, I agree about the dangers of apathy, and I do not condone it. But I draw the line where this gives licence for vigilantism - and I can't call the incidents against Goodwin's house and car anything else. It is not a million miles away from lynching.

Putting a brick through someone's window and damaging their car is not legitimate protest and uprising. Nothing like demonstrations, sit-ins, strikes, work-to-rules, organising votes or protesting. It is nothing like the Diggers' non-violent actions and courage - so let's not besmirch those heroes by comparing this event to their protest. It is not even like the actions of the Luddites - the latter focused on destroying the tools that threatened them, not anyone's personal property, no matter whether they considered it ill-gotten gains.

No, this is revenge-taking and scape-goating, pure and simple, and it occupies the same moral ground as any vengeful action. And if they thought that they represented others with their action, let me make it unequivocal:

NOT IN MY NAME

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:16 AM

"It is not even like the actions of the Luddites - the latter focused on destroying the tools that threatened them, not anyone's personal property"


I think you're wrong there, George, and I'd say there was a very strong correlation to the Luddites who were fighting to preserve their livelihoods from greedy and unscrupulous profiteers. What I would not have condoned was the murder of mill owner William Horsfall. The Luddites paid dear for their actions: 3 were hung for Horsfall's murder, thirteen more were hung for an earlier attack on Rawfold's Mill.

On 21st April 1812 the house of mill owner, Emanuel Burton was burnt down.

After a further attack on Wray and Dunscroff's mill, four people were hanged, including a 12 year old boy who cried for his mother on the scaffold. Later in 1812 8 men were hanged in Lancashire and a further 15 hanged in York. When asked if they could all be hung on the same scaffold , the judge said "They'll hang more comfortably on two".


There is a long tradition in this country of taking direct action to create a fairer society. Sometime the end justifies the means.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Megan L
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:17 AM

Violence and vandalisim NEVER justify anything

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:36 AM

Most importantly, it is ultimately counterproductive as goodwin will get his car fixed and his insurance company will pay for it not him.

He will just pick up his phone in the bahamas to be told all about it in retrospect by his accountant.

So it is pointless and counterproductive.

If London Gets smashed up, it won't be big business who suffers, they will claim on their insurance too. It certainly won't be any of the foreign dignitaries present or their entourage.

It will be local residents who use the buses, buy lunch at the cafes, drive on the roads, commute on the trains, rely on the railway stations ... and it will be small business owners who run the cafe, own the shop, rely on the pub etc ... not to mention that have to walk/drive/commute through the shit.

When mindless vandalism occurs, those at the top only read about it afterwards. Those at the bottom suffer the consequences.

Who are we meant to be fighting?

So shouldn't we think about a strategy that targets the right people in an effective way?

And shouldn't we be absolutely clear about what we are trying to achieve?

Great - Fred Goodwins car is temporarily damaged while he is out of the country - I really feel that the tables have turned - boy - thanks guys - social justice is here again.

Bollocks

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:52 AM

"So shouldn't we think about a strategy that targets the right people in an effective way?

And shouldn't we be absolutely clear about what we are trying to achieve?"

If you could be arsed, it's not hard to find out. Nick Dearden, of the Put People First campaign, said:

"For decades, we've been campaigning to make the global financial architecture fair and sustainable. Now that it's collapsed, that message is more relevant than ever....we wanted to bring a coalition together to make clear what needed to be done. The interest has been quite amazing. What's really significant about this is the marrying up of unions, environmental groups, trade justice groups, religious groups – all of them uniting for the first time around a common manifesto which we are demanding the G20 adopts."

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:45 AM

Protest if you want.

Like George who uses some big words :-)

Voilence and Vandalism

NOT IN MY NAME

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:40 AM

It's V-I-O-Lence! Tut-tut Les, back to skool! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 09:56 AM

Oh dart and fkcu. Wher is my spel cheker :-)