BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:28 AM

LOL! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,the sad prophet
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:43 AM

I was a prophet. A disliked prophet.

The only prophets people enjoy for a limited time are the false prophets of doom and gloom or the type that promises good times and sounds like "god will deliver you riches if you give us your money".

For years I have warned about the international criminal corporations and finance criminals that were plundering the world.
While the commissions were rolling in there were few who knew the eventual outcome.

Here I have said numerous times in various ways for the last 10 years, "the ethics at work in the USA is to let all the evil and avarice in men's souls hatch out, if there is a day of reckoning our money will insure our continued happiness".

The evil hatched out, infected the world and now the outcome is just begining to be realized in everyone's life.

Few people here doubted what I was saying with the rare exception of people like robomatic, Doug R and Teribus. For folks like that there will be years of denial and a reversal of historic fact.



The sabotaged and failed lives of the victims of the corporate financial and banking families usually lash out at themselves and their community in ; school, church, nursing home, mall and home - SHOOTINGS.

That one group vandalized a true cause of their personal plight is at least honest and well directed!

When justice fails everyone by protecting only the richest criminals, a base, crude, ugly, ludricrous form of justice will fill the void.

The future will be full of the prolitariate seeking a revenge that will never fit the magnitude of the crimes they have suffered and will suffer for the rest of their lives.

Like Tony Soprano, ex CEO's like Mozillo sit and wait in fear, in their large gated communites protected by one gate guard in his little booth and perhaps a body guard while traveling incognito. They ponder the unfairness of it all and feel that their actions have been just in their perverted sense of the "American way".


All the financial crimes have been commited in your name as an American citizen. All the blame, violence and vandalism will be commited in your name. What we like to forget is...




We are all to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 10:58 AM

Don, your "prophetizing" has been haphazard and feverishly inclusive. It has ranged, imo, from valid to ludicrous.

This thread is addressing means and methods and mindsets of UK citizens in combatting what they perceive threats of immediacy.

It is not about "us". And it is not about "you".

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,Don
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:12 AM

What we like to forget is...




We are all to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,iest
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:16 AM

yes even you Ebbie.


When I was seven I had a repeating dream, probably inspired from an episode of the Twilight Zone, in which the TV announced that nuclear annihilation was only seven minutes away. I rushed out the front door as manu other neighbors suriously did and heard the mixed protestations from all the different people.
The comments all amounted to blaming each other...to the very end.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:21 AM

To both Goatfell and to Keith, next Monday I will find out how much was "stolen" from me, not RBS but HBOS. What is the betting that what I had lodged with them has increased as it does accrue interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:36 AM

The question that each and every one of us has to ask ourselves is – are you prepared to put your livelihood, your home and the future of your children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions – or are you prepared to take action to change this?

If you go with the former, you will have to live with the consequences. You do it because you do not care enough and NOT IN MY NAME.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:41 AM

well he's taken off the Tax payer for to keep his bank a float, not unless you don't pay tax?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 11:52 AM

"The question that each and every one of us has to ask ourselves is – are you prepared to put your livelihood, your home and the future of your children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions"

And I bet the people of the former USSR are asking themselves the same question.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 12:08 PM

Just noted that the leveller reckons we have a tradition of direct action to effect change in this country. So glad to hear it, because hitherto I thought we had a tradition of parliamentary democracy. Although we do have a tradition of hanging drawing and quartering rebels I suppose...

I am also extremely glad I make the leveller sick. It is part of growing up, being sick a lot. Something to do with your digestive system not being balanced until puberty. Perhaps when and if the leveller matures, he will stop being sick and deserve a place in respectable society. Until then, I note he called himself a layabout and scrounger. If the cap fits, wear it, but I don't know enough about you (or want to for that matter) to pass comment.

As I said, I will be at our London office, uncomfortably close to the area known as the city, tomorrow. I hope the police will do what tax payers ask of them and ensure my day is not impeded. I have enough distraction going to the voting station every three or four years. You see, that is how we effect change here. If you don't like it, find a different country or set up a party and get elected on your own manifesto.

Direct action does not work, and if it did, it would be a very sad day for civilisation. Nobody disagrees that the banking world has been too powerful over the years and the bubble has well and truly burst. But before we get too excited, the G20 are getting together to try and sort it. They may fail, but fettering their progress guarantees that they fail!

Is that simple enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 01:22 PM

>If you could be arsed, it's not hard to find out. Nick Dearden, of the >Put People First campaign, said:
>
>"For decades, we've been campaigning to make the global financial >architecture fair and sustainable. Now that it's collapsed, that >message is more relevant than ever....we wanted to bring a coalition >together to make clear what needed to be done. The interest has been >quite amazing. What's really significant about this is the marrying up >of unions, environmental groups, trade justice groups, religious >groups – all of them uniting for the first time around a common >manifesto which we are demanding the G20 adopts."

I note a distinct lack of endorsements of violence here - good.

In fact I reckon that vandalism and violence risk undoing the hard long term work that was done making the above a reality.

Another reason why violence and vandalism should not be encouraged.

Ian Mather, yes voting is a legitimate form of public enfranchisement.

So is public protest.

We have the right to demonstrate.

As long as it isn't violent, I am behind it all the way.

Freedom of speech, assembly and to protest are not only part of the British tradition, but essential ingredients of democracy.

Sorry if that gets in your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 02:14 PM

""I really don't believe what I am reading on here. I don't believe anyone has the right to attack any person or their property... isn't it against the law???""

Me neither Mike.

A totally misguided policy, as well as indefensible in law. All this incompetent, self serving government needs to justify an oppressive reaction, HANDED TO THEM ON A PLATE by these bloody fools, and they don't see the dangers.

VIOLENCE NEVER SOLVED A PROBLEM, except in children's television series (e.g. "Power Rangers") Probably where these fools got their notion of justice.

Anyway, we've been handed an example of how Goodwin was able to negotiate his obscene pension deal.

We have a Home Secretary, for Christ's sake, the person RESPONSIBLE for rule of law in the UK, who is under investigation for what amounts to fraud. And WE ARE THE VICTIMS of that fraud.

Also, our wonderful government once again leads by example.

Army given full recommended pay increase of 2.8%. Nothing wrong with that, given the job they do.
Senior civil servants cut back to 1.5%.   Reasonable; They don't (usually) risk death.
M.P.s pay up 2.33%.   Now THAT is what I call barefaced daylight robbery, combined with an abysmal ignorance of the plight of production workers currently being offered the choice of REDUNDANCY or PAY CUTS!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:18 PM

Theleveller, regarding your last post, as you asked the question of all here, I will answer for myself: No, I am not prepared to put my livelihood, my home and the future of my children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions. And yes, I am prepared to take action to change this. The right action, which can be many things.

But I will only resort to physical violence in defense against physical violence, and I will not act in violence first.

If that is insufficient commitment in your view, then let this be the defining difference between us. My principles stand, unchanged by circumstances. I live and will gladly die by them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 03:57 PM

George, let me for the umpteenth time say, yet again, to you, for whom I have the greatest respect, and to Ian Mather, for whom I have none, that I do not and will not condone violence. That people choose to lump together vandalism against property with violence against people is their problem. I do not. The two are totally and utterly different.

There, is that simple enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:08 PM

OK, theleveller, I get the salient difference, thanks for making it clear.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:21 PM

So you would be prepared to use violence George?.....Too much of a gentleman to strike the first blow?...and I'm not trying to be sarcastic.
When I was young and being bullied at school, I was given some good advice by my old uncle...."be sure tae get the first one in boy, the first one's the best and gey often the last."

Many here say violence doesn't work, its counter productive, but violence or the threat of violence is commonly used by the strong powers against the weak.....Have you forgotten Iraq already?...or Gaza?..or Chile? or Spain?....the list is long and bloody.

However, the violence we have to guard against is the removal of our liberties, as Lox says, the loss of the right to protest, the right of free speech, the right to demonstrate.
Dont think for one moment that the people who run this system would be like "Gentleman George"; my grandfather told me of the last great social unrest in Britain, which culminated in the 1926 General Strike and how our political leaders put the troops and tanks into Red Clydeside, ready to blow the citizens to pieces for daring to demand the end of a "discredited system in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 04:46 PM

>>the loss of the right to protest, the right of free speech, the right to demonstrate.
<<
And let me spe;; it out to some of you people who don't seem to get it.

That does not mean vandalism or violence in any circumstances unless you are being attacked yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 05:49 PM

"well he's taken off the Tax payer for to keep his bank a float, not unless you don't pay tax?"

Two points of fact here Tom. The first is that "he" Fred Goodwin took nothing, the Government bought shares in the bank (Not a bad move because in the long term it will make them money - they will get it all back). The second one is that RBS was not Fred Goodwin's bank, he didn't own it, he only worked there - not "his" bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: GUEST,donuel
Date: 31 Mar 09 - 08:01 PM

AIG has hired the consulting firm that fixes images.
Its the same one that big tobacco and oil use.
Its even the same one that Hillary hired.
The first step was to change the AIG name...

the softer side of AIG mudcat press 2009

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:05 AM

In defense, ake, as said, I would. I am not a pure pacifist (or "pure" anything come to think of it, my purity days are long gone).

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:12 AM

""George, let me for the umpteenth time say, yet again, to you, for whom I have the greatest respect, and to Ian Mather, for whom I have none, that I do not and will not condone violence. That people choose to lump together vandalism against property with violence against people is their problem. I do not. The two are totally and utterly different.

There, is that simple enough?""

YES LEVELLER!! Very clear indeed, and it would be a shining example of the art of debate, IF it weren't utter and complete egregious nonsense.

Your contention that a group of right thinking, sober, intelligent citizens are going out to commit acts of aggression toward a house and a car, is quite simply ludicrous.

Picture it:- "Hey Cecil, let's beat up that automobile, and really teach it a lesson".    "Oh, right-ho Charles, and while we're at it why don't we give the house a damn good hiding too"?

Those men committed that damage for one reason, and one reason only: TO PUT THE FEAR OF CHRIST INTO GOODWIN AND HIS FAMILY!

THAT, my friend, IS violence against persons, which you claim not to support, and as such it is indefensible.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 06:56 AM

I'm not going to argue with you because you don't listen so goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: meself
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 12:54 PM

Just in case anyone is so naive as to buy into this "violence-against-property-is-acceptable-but-violence-against-people-is-not-unless-someone-is-attacked-then-of-course-they-have-the-right-to-defend-themselves" nonsense, which I highly doubt, welcome to the real world. Here's how things happen:

Someone damages property. Property owner or hireling arrives to protect property. Someone is shoved. In response, someone is hit. In response to that, someone is clubbed. A rock no doubt aimed at a window hits somebody in the head. In response, a shot is fired in the air. More rocks, clubs, hatpins, tear gas, more shots in the air, shots on the ground, shots into bodies. When the dust clears, the dead and wounded taken away, there are great cries of, "Look what they've done to us! Peaceful means don't work against such brutes!" And soon, "They've got us outgunned, so we are fully justified in planting bombs, kidnapping their children", etc., etc.

If that's what you want, just say so.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Lox
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:02 PM

An eye for an eye ... making the whole world blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: heric
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 01:46 PM

"The Caterpillar bossnappings were the third in France over the past month and all have been sparked by disputes over severance package terms. Facing a sharp drop in orders, the U.S. heavy equipment maker is planning to cut up to 20,000 jobs worldwide. But workers say, with a $3.5 billion posted profit last year, Caterpillar can afford more than the $13,000 minimum severance, the newspaper said."

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 09 - 11:09 PM

I would think that watching the G20 rioting would be enough to bring any Mudcatter to his/her senses.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:24 AM

I thought it was interesting that RBS bank workers photocopied banknotes (an illegal activity - any comment from those who believe in the punishment of all wrong-doers?) and threw them down on the protesters.

"Yet the antagonism was clear as City staff waved £10 notes from their office windows and bellowed insults at the marchers below"

"Elsewhere, protests were largely peaceful as several thousand people descended on the country's financial heart to challenge world leaders. They were met by derision from City workers, who waved £10 notes from their offices at marchers on the streets below."

Despite this obviuos behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peacehe police, of course, acted superbly and with gtreat presence:

"But the police seemed more worried about the man (or woman) dressed as a rabbit and grabbed him into their own lines." LOL! I love that - save the eccentric, a true British action.

The vast majority of the protest passed off with good humour - and without agression, as one banker who got caught up with the protestors stated on the BBC Today programme this morning.

In fact:

"There was a carnival atmosphere as marchers crossed London Bridge with numerous camera crews, photographers and reporters in tow."

The vandalism against the RBS building was totally misplaced - no point in taking it out on the institution; it's the people who ran the organisation who should be blamed. Which brings me back to my original post:

Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:48 AM

Meself, I like your story. Pity you didn't finish it though. Allow me...

"...Al Quaeda launches a terrorist campaign on the US. US blames Iran for backing this and invades. Iran launches a nuclear attack on the US with weapons it's developed in secret. US responds with retaliatory missiles and blames Pakistan for aiding Iran. Pakistan takes this opportunity to make a nuclear attack on India. India retaliates. The world ends. And all because someone's window got broken. Funny old world!"

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: goatfell
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:32 AM

I was watching the news on the EBC and I thought how silly those thugs were. I believe in peaceful protest unlike those thugs only belive in thuggery, I just hope that the thugs will get caught.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 04:53 AM

Didn't see much from my office as the marchers went a couple of hundred yards away. The security presence (non-police) was far less than on the Stop the City protests of a few years ago. There were a few protestors in fancy dress wheeling a stuffed zebra around the Gherkin sticking posters to the windows which were removed by a security card following a few feet behind. Apparently another group tried to storm the Gherkin but fell apart when they found they were at the back where there was just a cafe and bar.

I thought the fake armoured car was a great ruse.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:07 AM

"Put the fear of Christ into Goodwin"? Not a bad idea really if one believed in Christ. Did he not use violence to drive the moneychangers from the Temple, saying "This is my father's house, but you have made it into a den of thieves"?

Well this is my father's and his father's etc land (not to forget mothers too) and Goodwin and his ilk have made it onto a den of thieves. They have captured and corruped those who would defend us and in stead of Michael Foot (a man of principle if ever there was one) they gave us Bliar, out of whose shadow (and, worse, Thatcher's long shadow of worship of greed) Brown can only slowly escape.

Until enough people are prepared to do as the followers of Ghandi did and until enough people can see clearly who oppresses them by use of the ballot box, the only path to change is violence.

Did Ireland teach you nothing?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM

But once you've replaced capitalism (with what?) through violence what's the stop it being reinstated through violence? Is this the continuing revolution espoused by Communism?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:43 AM

Seems like a good point to repeat my earlier post:-

"The question that each and every one of us has to ask ourselves is – are you prepared to put your livelihood, your home and the future of your children in the custody of a discredited system and in the hands of greedy, dishonest and incompetent individuals who have screened themselves from the consequences of their own actions"

And I bet the people of the former USSR are asking themselves the same question

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 06:51 AM

But the new corruption in Russia et al is capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:43 AM

Replacement of a left-leaning democracy by right wing military capitalism? We know that happens by violence, don't we boys and girls.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:43 AM

And it's no more or less corrupt than its predecessor.
Greed and envy abound wherever and whatever the political system. It's human nature.
If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would still be moaning.

Oh look - the grass over there is so much greeener than ours......

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 07:58 AM

""If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would still be moaning.""


NO, MATE!    If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would be up against a wall, or disappeared.

And THAT'S the major difference. How many people got shot dead between 1961 and 1989, trying to cross the border WEST to EAST?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Musket
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:14 AM

So, the G20 is in session as I write and there may or may not be an agreement.

Whatever, I am at least glad that hitherto, they are getting on with trying to sort out the problem.

Me? the leveller may be interested to know that I got to my office Ok, tried not to pat the dogs that the security firm had at the entrance, and got on with my day.

Then, went to a pub near Kings Cross with colleagues, as we had things to discuss, (not the G20 funnily enough,) got a train and was home in time for the footy.

What the leveller may not be interested in, was that I didn't manage to kick any beggars, failed to photocopy bank notes to drop at protesters and even when I had the chance in the pub, didn't manage to do a Harry Enfield impression, so didn't go up to people telling them that I notice I am richer than you etc.

Sorry about that.

Oh, and by the way, peaceful protest is a way of reminding decision makers that they are being watched and their actions scrutinised. My point for the rest of the world, (other than our levelling friend, who doesn't count,) is that I like many other people am concerned that anarchists and trouble makers get on the bandwagon of peaceful protest and give it a bad name. I empathise with peaceful protest, even where I don't see the point.

I am actually rather thrilled that somebody has absolutely no respect for me. I should spout my views more often, although perhaps under an alias in future, as our levelling friend is at best passive about direct action, and at worst, well, ha ha ha is what he said about a bank employee having his home attacked.... (Forgot how much fun it is, winding people up!)

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:50 AM

All is quiet here in my part of the City this lunchtime. I saw one lone demonstrator with a placard, presumably wondering where his mates had gone. No signs of any property damage or debris from the Climate Camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 08:55 AM

"NO, MATE!    If this were a communist country, people like Fred Goodwin would still be cock of the walk, and moaners like those we see on this thread would be up against a wall, or disappeared.

And THAT'S the major difference. How many people got shot dead between 1961 and 1989, trying to cross the border WEST to EAST?"

Correct, Don. Thanks for that.

Strange how the loony-lefties never seem to remember things like Tiananmen Square, or the Gulags, when they're spouting their bollocks about what shit systems the UK and the USA operate, and how marvellous it will be when the proles give the rulers a good kick in the balls and take over.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 09:34 AM

Strange how right-wing apologists never seem to remember things ike Tiananmen Square, or the Gulags, when they're dealing with oppressive regimes that can make them a quick buck at the expense of the poor sods that do the work for next to nothing.

These regimes have sod all to do with communism (bloody obvious) and everything to do with supplying fat lazy westerners who have never known life without free speech but balk at life sans Coca Cola or burgers to feed their fat faces with.

There's no chance of those proles giving their leaders a good kick in the balls and taking over; they're too afraid of losing their Nike trainers, cheap computers etc Better let some Chinese worker in a Laogai who they'll never have to face do the donkey work - they're not going to complain after all, unless they want a bullet in the back of the head.

The pro-democracy movement in China is made up of people with more courage and integrity than most westerners can ever dream of having, and the fact right-wingers love to business with the people who seek to oppress their free speech renders them complicit.

Loony lefties we may be, but remembering Tiananmen Square, The kidnapping and disappearance of the true Panchen Lama, The 50th Anniversary of the Tibetan Uprising and human rights in China are causes we believe in and actually do something about, rather than kow-tow to money-men and political pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: theleveller
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 09:45 AM

Sorry, Ian, I can't understand what point you're trying to make; you've descended into complete gibberish. Take more water with it, mate.

Anyway, it's turning out to be a great day. The G20 are sorting out the world financial crisis (LOL), it's a beautiful sunny afternoon and I've just landed enough work to keep me busy for at least the next two months (phew, the kids can eat again :)).

Oh, and while we're on the subject of destruction of property, I'm getting a new Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppy today – now that's one method that even the protestors haven't thought of.

Off to buy a bottle of fair trade organic wine to celebrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:04 AM

Just don't leave it alone with the kids, theleveller, or it might be biting more than you can chew - too many sad stories around.

Glad you landed the extra work, I am still looking for a job where they'll pay me to sit at home and write songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:34 AM

No such thing as a bad dog George - only bad owners!

I was brought up with Staffies, my mum and dad had them for 30 years, never had any sort of problem, ever. They are the perfect family dog, provided they're brought up and trained properly. My sister (who was just a little girl when they got the first one) used to dress him up in cardigans, hats, skirts and he loved it being the centre of attention. Great playmates for one another.

They're like people - treat them right and they'll treat you right. Treat them wrong and they'll turn on you. Most of the bad stories you read are the result of idiots who buy them because of the macho image they have, and they try to make them 'tough'. Do that to any dog, and it'll end up biting your balls (or worse). It's unfair to single out the Staffie, no dog, of any breed, should ever be left alone with small children. Even Yorkies bite, very hard.

But back to the subject of the thread, I understand your points Jack, but how will terrorising a banker and his family, or beating policemen up and breaking windows in London make things better for people who really are oppressed (not just jealous, moaning bastards like some on here)?

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 10:59 AM

I've never been fond of Staffs, being a collie man myself but we've just come back from holiday and the owners of the cottage we were staying at had an 8-month old Staff who was utterly bonkers but bags of fun. Our 14-year old working sheepdog didn't want the mither and gave him short shrift although he certainly didn't take the hint. He was full of youth! Always off in their (huge) garden on some sort of doggy mission.

"But back to the subject of the thread, I understand your points Jack, but how will terrorising a banker and his family, or beating policemen up and breaking windows in London make things better for people who really are oppressed (not just jealous, moaning bastards like some on here)?"

It won't, and I'm a typical soft lefty who abhors violence of any kind, and I can't see the point in singling out one greed bastard from a whole raft of them. I can understand their frustration to a degree as they feel they have no voice (my own MP states we don't vote for him to represent our views in Parliament, but because we agree with his views; so much for democratic representation . . .).

Goodwin will get away with this because the people in charge are like him, and that's a tough pill for people with little hope of work or who are losing their homes or income to swallow. But having been here in the 80's I can't see how things are going to change unless we change the system, as when the going gets tough the civil unrest starts.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 11:42 AM

Well, well, well......a man who has even just a brief attachment to a Staffie can't be all bad! :-)

We are very close to agreeing, Jack. Like you, I agree with much of 'the end', I just can't agree with 'the means' that these people employ.

And if they truly are so sincere in their beliefs, let them go and demonstrate, break windows, attack policemen doing their jobs in countries which have real corruption rife in them - I wonder how long they'd last in China, Iran, Russia et al?

We have a very great deal to be grateful for in the UK, not the least being the freedom to protest and to free speech. No-one should take them for granted, and no-one should abuse them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 01:03 PM

Still making the usual "socialist" mistake of confusing "capitalism" for a political ideology are we Richard Bridge?? FYI it's not never, ever has been.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Stu
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 01:29 PM

"Still making the usual "socialist" mistake of confusing "capitalism" for a political ideology are we Richard Bridge?? FYI it's not never, ever has been."

Really?

I would suggest there are plenty of people active in Western politics whose only ideology is that of individualism, free-market economics and the minimisation of state intervention. In the UK and US it's the default position. The fact it's failed utterly (being totally unable to regulate itself and stem it's worst excesses) and state intervention is now universally accepted might indicate we need to rethink the capitalist ideal.

It's debatable whether capitalism is more than an economic system (though I would suggest it has certainly become so and many of it's early adherents saw it as such - up to an including Thatcher), but the word has become interchangeable with 'democracy' even though it's anything but.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Lox
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 03:19 PM

Teribus.

Capitalism is an economic theory.

A Capitalist however, whilst being:

1. a person who has capital, esp. extensive capital, invested in business enterprises.
2. An investor of capital in business, especially one having a major financial interest in an important enterprise.
3. a person who invests capital in a business (especially a large business).

(the same definition from different sources)

or simply a person of great wealth,

can also be,

1. a conservative advocate of capitalism (noun)
2. favoring or practicing capitalism [syn: capitalistic] [ant: socialist] (adjective)

... note the antonym ...

3. A supporter of capitalism.
4. an advocate of capitalism.

A supporter of capitalism will as a matter of course need to justify it in the context of politics and the political issues that surround it.

Any argument advanced in that context can be said to be a political argument.

A self proclaimed capitalist can therefore be said to be representative of a political ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Fred Goodwin's home attacked - hahaha!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 09 - 05:09 PM

Thank you Lox.

It comes back to the same point in the end. If the few rich profit at the expense of the many poor (as they do), and control the ballot box by control of the media (as they demonstrably did in Italy and more subtly do elsehere), how will the poor ever free themselves from exploitation?

Who will be our tricoteuses?