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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Emma B Date: 23 Apr 09 - 04:58 AM In this instance I have no cast iron evidence, except the blatently obvious consistant formulaic and emotionally manipulative pattern of the programme, that the producers and judges, including Simon Cowell (who actually created the show) and is described in The Times as - "allowed to run two of ITV's biggest shows, on prime time, charge ITV for broadcasting them, charge viewers for voting in them, and then cream off the winners' earnings - most of whom are poor and working class, some of whom are children." - were actually in 'on the act' although to thinking reporters throughout the media there seems little room for doubt However, a few years back I was on holiday in a remote Spanish village. The only other English speaking couple included a person who was at the heart of another (in)famous 'reality' show and the conversations with him left me with no illusions whatsoever about the leval of cynical manipulation employed by the individuals who are the real financial beneficaries of the emotionally racked up audience ratings of this type of 'entertainment' Now if you have unquestioning faith and belief in the Simon Cowells of this world you will remain unconvinced in the light of ANY evidence that their exaggerated expressions of suprise were not entirely genuine - forgive me if I remain an agnostic. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Alice Date: 22 Apr 09 - 09:27 PM Those who think the judges are all liars will not be convinced otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 22 Apr 09 - 05:44 PM 'The pop music scene chews up and spits out novelty vocalists quicker than you can say Tiny Tim.' So what? It's a business. If she sells some recordings and makes a little money so life is somewhat easier, then good. Not everybody needs to be a superstar. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Don Firth Date: 22 Apr 09 - 04:31 PM I would hardly call Susan Boyle a "novelty vocalist." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: glueman Date: 22 Apr 09 - 02:38 PM Wot Emma said, in every detail. If I were managing her sympathetically it would be in religious recordings and light entertainment shows where she could have a normal life outside, not West End shows with all the bull surrounding them or playing ugly sisters in Panto. She could make money without being part of a freak show and keep her soul and integrity in one piece. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Emma B Date: 22 Apr 09 - 02:23 PM 'Cowell's marketing machine is relentless.' "do I feel like we're being handed a plate of hogwash, all designed solely to make Simon Cowell a richer man? No question about it. First, let's be clear. I wouldn't call this a "hoax" — the lady's got serious chops, and hadn't technically been "discovered" yet. But do I buy for one minute that Simon Cowell and the other "shocked" judges had no clue what was going on? Of course not...... She had to sing multiple times to earn her place on stage, and I'm betting that the show's handlers knew the narrative they were going for, and shellacked, staged, and packaged accordingly. And who will her success help more than Simon Cowell, who is already rumored to be signing her to a record contract?" - Dr. Andrea Bonior, a clinical psychologist and author based near Washington, DC. known for her to-the-point witticisms about psychological phenomena I also read the article by Richard Ouzounian but didn't bother posting a link as I thought Don's dumpster must be pretty full by now His article includes the comment "She's a woman with a big, rich voice, which has entertained her neighbours and friends for many years. Nothing wrong with that. But to turn her into a worldwide celebrity on the basis of a chance appearance on a reality TV show isn't just unfair, it's downright cruel. The pop music scene chews up and spits out novelty vocalists quicker than you can say Tiny Tim. It's also a cold, hard world that says if you're not young and pretty, you'd better be absolutely amazing." This is my biggest fear for this likeable woman who, other West End musical performers feel, despite her obvious talent, has not got what it takes for the professional stage. Well it's a modern fairy story but not half as big a 'fairy story' as the idea that the judges had no idea what to expect! |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Alice Date: 22 Apr 09 - 01:27 PM The judges did NOT know what she could do before hearing her on stage. There are pre-auditions before the stage auditions, but the judges do not hear the pre-auditions. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: frogprince Date: 22 Apr 09 - 01:25 PM Erm.."Does he have to be..." please |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: frogprince Date: 22 Apr 09 - 01:19 PM From the Toronto Star review: "absolutely no subtlety or nuance in what she does". What in hell is Oozeyman talking about? Does she be as eccentric as Billy Holliday, or as given to vocal gymnastics as Whitney Houstan or Maria Carey, to impress him? Or what? |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Apr 09 - 12:12 PM Pleased to see everyone admit the judges knew they had something *before* the filming. No. Everyone didn't. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Jack Blandiver Date: 22 Apr 09 - 11:57 AM the show is as real as Eastenders. Actually Eastenders is more real because it isn't pretending to be real, concerning itself (as it does) with mythical narrative archetypes played out to hyperbolic perfection which is well in the tradition of storytelling & balladry. BGT on the other hand dumbs culture down to the lowest possible moronic denominator and administers it as a cynical enema up the collective arses of the audience who fall for it hook, line & sinker. Worse, it involves the hopes and aspirations of real lives & real human beings, such as the unfortunate innocent Susan Boyle. I just hope & pray she comes out of the other side in one piece. I'm off now to cook up some Ecstasy and inject it in the soft pink flesh above my from teeth for maximum impact. This is known as... ...E by gum. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: glueman Date: 22 Apr 09 - 02:31 AM Pleased to see everyone admit the judges knew they had something *before* the filming. I was accused of cynicism and fun stealing for suggesting as much on another thread. Good singer but the show is as real as Eastenders. There's no way in the world the production crew wouldn't say come and have a look at this rehearsal tape to the judges. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Apr 09 - 11:40 PM I'm glad someone piped up with the "Mudita" contribution. Thank you! |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Fred Maslan Date: 21 Apr 09 - 11:19 PM I keep thinking of Kate Smith who earned her star in the era of radio, and comparing that to the world of video which Susan Boyle is up against. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Don Firth Date: 21 Apr 09 - 08:30 PM Once again I have to consign a critic to the Dumpster for apparently feeling that, as a critic, he has to posture a bit and try to rain on the parade. I listened to the voice, how she used it, and how she interpreted the song, along with listening to several established professional singers singing the same song. Susan Boyle, in terms of delivering the song, did as well as most of the professionals. A few, I thought, did a better job, but she did it better than some. Middle of a field of pros. Not bloody bad for a non-professional! And this has nothing to do with her looks. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Emma B Date: 21 Apr 09 - 07:53 PM I don't know either Joe - sometimes I think the only sane nation is Canada The Toronto Star is that really your lad? |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Apr 09 - 07:42 PM Yeah, I suppose the kid's a good singer, and does a very credible job of a Michael Jackson cover, but I just don't know about all this hullabaloo about Susan Boyle and this kid who sing a coupla songs on the TV and gain their 15 minutes of fame, even if the kid's mother is cute. Hey, how about this kid? Isn't his father cute? -Joe- One review compared Nic's dancing to that of a wind-up chimpanzee. All I could say was, "That's my boy." |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: kendall Date: 21 Apr 09 - 07:13 PM He's quite apt to lose that voice but he will always have the dimples. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Alice Date: 21 Apr 09 - 07:08 PM "how the camera just happened to be focussed" The answer is - Editing. There are numerous cameras shooting many different angles and the editor puts together the shots for the final product. That's the way any film or video is created that is not broadcast live, and even live, there are different camera shots that the production crew are watching simultaneously and the director is telling which camera shot to go to in a live broadcast. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Ref Date: 21 Apr 09 - 07:02 PM Susan Boyle has some talent. The kid's too young to know about, especially since there's no telling what those pipes will yield in a year or three. His mommy's damned cute, though! |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: trevek Date: 21 Apr 09 - 03:36 PM Apparently with most if these shows the singers are asked to bring two or three tracks on their audition CD. Still, I suspect some of these acts have been heard by the judges beforehand. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 21 Apr 09 - 10:15 AM 'bitter, spiteful resentment'? Oh please! What sanctimonious words to criticize people who suspect TV producers of trying to manipulate them. I'm happy for Susan, but I do wonder how the camera just happened to be focussed on the beautiful, brunette audience member with the camera-ready eyes just at the moment when she sneered. I'm sure that our sympathy for the underdog is being exploited. I'm also happy for all those in the audience aged 20 to 40, who have perhaps never heard a good female voice before. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: kendall Date: 21 Apr 09 - 08:29 AM She is an outstanding talent. All the rest is commentary and blather. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: 3refs Date: 21 Apr 09 - 07:57 AM I suggested that Susan move over a bit, not get to hell out of the way! I thought both performances were jaw dropping! |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: GUEST,BanjoRay Date: 21 Apr 09 - 07:41 AM In both performances, the audience applauded all the way through the song - they can't have heard anything much.... Ray |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Tug the Cox Date: 21 Apr 09 - 06:34 AM There is an altrnative to jealousy and schadenfreude. It is Mudita, a Pali ( the language used at the time of the Buddha) translated as sympathetic joy, or joy at the good fortune of others. A qualtity hardly known in trhe west. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 21 Apr 09 - 01:52 AM Not only that, Don, (besides throwing confetti in the air for 20 minutes, because we actually agreed on something), They were watching someone, win over a lot of people heartily, which might remind them of their own ineffectualness. (Something those in the BS threads need to allow themselves to do!!). |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Don Firth Date: 21 Apr 09 - 12:51 AM Yeah, GfS, that's pretty much the ballpark I had in mind. Too bad some folks have to feel that way. As I commented on another thread, as the old song says, they're "more to be pitied than censured." Everybody else is happy and they're sitting there gnashing their teeth. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Teribus Date: 21 Apr 09 - 12:51 AM Quote 1 from Emma B's post: "the carefully filmed expressions of derision turning to feigned surprise are as disingenuous as today's Mirror headlines 'Britain's Got Talent judges say sorry for doubting the audition of the singing sensation' 'We were so dying for her." But as soon as Susan started singing, the judges knew they" had found gold".' Quote 2 from Emma B's post: "PR Svengali Max Clifford who represents Simon Cowall) admits Cowell was raving about Boyle weeks before her audition even aired" Now quite how anyone can say that the reactions of the audience were disingenuous I do not know as they they heard Susan Boyle sing at her first appearance before the judges. Nothing at all odd about about the second quote either - "before her audition even aired" - "aired" being the operative and important bit to remember here, not "recorded" - Max Clifford does not state whether or not Simon Cowell was raving about Susan Boyle before she sang at that audition before the judges when the performance was recorded, the reactions of both audience and the judges I believe were genuine, they might have been told to expect something from those screening and selecting acts to audition but that would have been it. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: GUEST,Guest from SAnity Date: 21 Apr 09 - 12:12 AM "But what's the word for that feeling of bitter, spiteful resentment that some people seem to have when they hear of the good fortune of someone else? Especially when it manifests itself by attempting to belittle the person and deride the circumstances by which this good fortune came about?" Don Firth Don, How about jealousy? |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Alice Date: 20 Apr 09 - 11:26 PM Actually, I'm sure Simon could tell right away that the melody itself was not going to show the range of this boy's voice. He needed the Jackson one that he switched to. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Apr 09 - 11:23 PM All things considered from this performance, Simon called it right. The first song didn't go over well (I don't know it, but I suspect if it is Amy Winehouse it is more sophisticated than a 12-year-old might convincingly deliver). Giving him another chance, to start again with a different song was a generous move and though I'm not a huge Michael Jackson fan, I've sung along to many of his tunes over the years, and I can see why this one worked better for the boy. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Bill D Date: 20 Apr 09 - 10:41 PM Well, the response from the WORLD was sincere... and the lady can SING! |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Apr 09 - 10:34 PM Having spent 'some' times in a studio, actually, you can get an audience to respond, and make it seem genuine. 'Applause' lights and guys who signal, like cheerleaders, off, usually to the sides..but not too far. That being said, I think the enthusiasm for Susan, was quite a bit spontaneous....however, if the audience had a large monitor, showing the judges re-action, that certainly would have helped the momentum. When I watched it, several times, I admit, it got me to tears. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: TRUBRIT Date: 20 Apr 09 - 10:10 PM Bill - exactly -- SEEM spontaneous.......... |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Bill D Date: 20 Apr 09 - 10:08 PM I agree, Don... you can't 'stage' an audience reaction or the actual performance. Maybe there is some pre-knowlege of the likely talent given to the judges....maybe.... but I don't know that. I'm sure the producers can 'guide' the focus of the show, but the details MUST seem spontaneous. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: TRUBRIT Date: 20 Apr 09 - 10:07 PM My husband had sent me a Susan Boyles link at work which I could not open. When I got home he said -- you HAVE to see this clip -- and I watched it and yeah, I believed!!!!!!! If in fact the panel had seen her before it makes a mockery of everything............if a different panel saw her and passed her on, well, maybe different......... |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Don Firth Date: 20 Apr 09 - 09:27 PM Since in this thread, too, there are people beating on Susan Boyle: "Schadenfreude" is the word for that feeling of sneaky satisfaction that some people experience at someone else's misfortune. But what's the word for that feeling of bitter, spiteful resentment that some people seem to have when they hear of the good fortune of someone else? Especially when it manifests itself by attempting to belittle the person and deride the circumstances by which this good fortune came about? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 20 Apr 09 - 09:12 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gHvATmUsSg |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Emma B Date: 20 Apr 09 - 08:54 PM every single gut wrenching moment of this show is staged down to the last raised eyebrow and rolling eye :( |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Bill D Date: 20 Apr 09 - 07:15 PM "...the orchestra was immediately ready to play it.." but there was no orchestra...they had a tape or CD cued up backstage. (You can see them getting it ready). I suppose most performers bring 2-3 songs they can do. Could it still have been staged? I suppose so... |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: kendall Date: 20 Apr 09 - 05:06 PM He obviously has great talent, but all that caterwalling turned me right off. |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: Emma B Date: 20 Apr 09 - 05:06 PM 3 refs if the second 'choice' of song was 'serendipitous' then the fact that the orchestra was immediately ready to play it must be 'miraculous' too The reality of 'Reality' How is it possible not to experience some degree of cynicism when reviews of Susan Boyle's performance state with obvious justification 'much of the enjoyment from Susan's performance was to be had from seeing the panel exposed as shallow, cynical fools who assumed she would be bad just from looking at her.' However the carefully filmed expressions of derision turning to feigned surprise are as disingenuous as today's Mirror headlines 'Britain's Got Talent judges say sorry for doubting the audition of the singing sensation' 'We were so dying for her." But as soon as Susan started singing, the judges knew they" had found gold".' PR Svengali Max Clifford who represents Simon Cowall) admits Cowell was raving about Boyle weeks before her audition even aired and his support - and that of others connected with the show People had their cards marked," Clifford says. "There was no question people were on to her. Simon [Cowell] was talking to me about her weeks ago. He said you have got to see the first episode. As soon as I saw it I could see it had all the ingredients." In a press statement, producer Cameron Mackintosh perpetuated this pretence "Just like the judges and audience I was gob-smacked by the emotional powerhouse performance of Susan Boyle's show stopping rendition of 'I Dreamed a Dream.' " Like its American counterpart the show is, of course, a totally artificial construct with carefully selected 'ingredients' and I too have concerns for the woman caught in this circus. Nevertheless I feel that Susan Boyle is far more 'savvy' than the image presented. Despite her much publicised 'learning difficulties' she studied at Edinburgh Acting School in the early '90s before she was forced to leave and care for her sick mother, has also featured in a "madrigal" show at Edinburgh's Fringe Festival and local amateur productions and received some professional training in Livingston. Well she's up against a precocious singer (never compete with children or animals to misquote) The latest betting odds are available on OLGB sports says it all...... |
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Subject: RE: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: BobKnight Date: 20 Apr 09 - 05:02 PM Good voice, but the vocal gymnastics don't do anything for me. It's a bit like the guy who told Mozart - too many notes. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: 3refs Date: 20 Apr 09 - 04:37 PM Maybe I should have posted this above?
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Subject: BS: Moveover Susan Boyle(a bit) From: 3refs Date: 20 Apr 09 - 04:36 PM Check out this kid. And what Simon did.....was it planned or we can't quite call it "Serendipity"! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVU4IkzMNIo |
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