Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 12:03 PM

I'm going to repeat a link from above:

http://wtv-zone.com/phyrst/audio/nfld/24/oldbrown.htm

I watched the second video listed there, the one by Great Big Sea. I'm impressed by the good-natured and professional way they handle a raucous crowd. That is real stage presence, and something that those who perform might like to see.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 11:13 AM

I can take the song back a tad more - it was listed under Vance's Last Great Hits in Era Magazine, Sunday December 4th, 1870.

Anyone know when the word 'hit' was first used to denote a successful/popular song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: doc.tom
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 02:38 PM

So widespread was the singing of it in the revival after Walter Pardon was recorded, that my daughter, at whom it was frequently sung, had a T-shirt made on the back of which read "there's nothing proper about me" (she's a Devonshire lass, which added another aspect for those who understoood it!)

Tom Brown

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Beer
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:38 PM

Interesting indeed.
ad.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:00 PM

The date of the pantomime is not given, but the song was sung on December 26th, 1871 at Abbeystead (Lancashire) on the occasion of the Wyresdale Annual Festival.

The vicar seemed to approve: "though I am a minister of religion, I am not one one of those who think innocent amusement always objectionable, but, rather, that it is sometimes desirable".

The Lancaster Gazette, Saturday December 30, 1871, p.8

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:46 PM

Yes, Meself. It's a good idea to learn her name and not only that, to use it. Don't always call her kiddo or hey-you or even 'my girlfriend.'

After you master her name, it's a good idea to learn the names of her siblings and her best friend. It's an effort, but it pays off.

Honest to God, I'd once been dating a fellow for several months who demanded "Who's Susan?" (Susan being my sister.) Right then I realized that that relationship was headed for the rocks.

Sminky, thanks for the reference. 1871! Who'd a thunk it?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

Extract from article:


THE THEATRE ROYAL

PANTOMIME OF "ALI BABA AND THE FORTY THIEVES"

After some amusing incidents, Ganem sings Old Brown's Daughter with inimitable taste

Nottinghamshire Guardian, Friday December 29, 1871, p.3

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: meself
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 11:50 AM

Darn! And to think that I've been taking Old Brown's Daughter as a Guide to Modern Courtship for the last forty years! Well, I suppose that explains a few things ....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 10:47 AM

Here's the URL for a fine rendition of this song on YouTube by a group called Great Big Sea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a22WOpWJEtE

Speaking as the only female on this thread, I would like to note that the singer fancies himself in love with old Brown's daughter. It would probably help his suit if he learned her name. Next he could try a little conversation.

In the song posted above, he refers to seven male figures - himself, Brown, a mayor, marquis, earl, lord and MP. In the YouTube version, they sing a line about toys for little boys. That's eight males on the guy's mind. This song isn't about love, it's about male competition.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a cute song. Just don't think we women are so dumb we don't notice this stuff.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: r.padgett
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

I agree Kitty, Johnny Collins was a fine singers and inspirational but seemed to fall out of favour with the establishment

Shell Back Chorus, Kimbers Men and Mageean and Knights, Shanty Jack and others have all flown the flag for shanties

and what a breath of fresh air with The Young'uns

I digress, sorry!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 09:46 PM

Thanks for setting me straight, Codger. I built my house of cards upon the sand of the American sheet music. So Burke changed "MP" to "Trinity" and that's about it for the the bard of Prescott Street, I suppose. If Rudyard Kipling wrote "The Squid Jigging Grounds" I don't wqant to know.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 08:39 PM

Hunt was a British artist, not an American one. He was well-established as a songwriter at the time the music was published, and many music hall performers, both British and American, performed his works--they even wrote parodies or included recognizable snippets of his works in their own productions. In fact, Hunt was far better known as a songwriter than as a performer.

The Oxford Library has sheet music for the song (also published ca. 1878) published by Hopwood and Crew, a London publisher which also handled the works of many other British music hall performers--and which contracted for such works to be reprinted elsewhere (including the US). The American sheet music is likely a copy of the British music, and the attribution in both to Hunt is fairly conclusive, particularly since Vance is credited as the performer (but not as author) in the British edition.

The Tilzer argument falls down in two sigificant respects. Tilzer was a publisher as well as a songwriter; Hunt was not. And given the geographical remove between Burke and Hunt, it's quite unlikely Burke would have ghostwritten for Hunt when so many potential markets for his efforts were available closer to home.

I don't believe Johnny Burke began printing and distributing his songs until rather later in his career, as an outgrowth of running his own paper. I'm unaware of any of his other songs being dated prior to the turn of the century. The period of his most widespread popularity appears to have been in the 1930s and 40s--an inexplicable delay if he began printing such good songs over fifty years previously!

In his paper, Burke reprinted songs by other people as well as his own poems, parodies and reworkings. Do we know whether he was scrupulous in assigning credit? Did he himself ever claim to have written this song, or was it merely ascribed to him because Newfies only knew of him as their source? (How many songs continue to be miscredited to the Carter Family merely because AP slapped a copyright on everything they recorded?)

Despite the wishful thinking of Burke fans, the theory of Burke's authorship doesn't hold up to examination.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 06:47 PM

Oh how I miss Johnny Collins (who like Peter Bellamy grew up in Norfolk) singing this!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 04:47 PM

So we have a Newfoundland version, a British music hall version, and an American sheet music version, which differ in several minor ways. The British and the Newfoundland versions are very similar. One difference is in the details of the narrator's political ambitions: to stand for Trinity, to put up as M. P., or to put up for M. C.

Johnny Burke rewrote songs such as "Blue Hen" (Nell Flaherty's Drake) and "Trinity Cake" (Miss Fogarty's Cake), often making them funnier; so he might have rewritten Old Brown's Daughter, but if he did, he didn't add any jokes or alter it much in any way.

Burke's song "Kelligrew's Soiree" was adapted to the New York musical stage by the addition of some topical references to a preesidential election circa 1910.

The publisher of the sheet music had offices in Boston, where Newfoundlanders conducted much of their business in them days.

Johnny Burke was aged in his twenties when the music was published. There doesn't seem to be any record of the song pre-dating the period of Burke's bardic ascendency

M.C. presumably stands for Member of Congress. I have never heard this phrase used to describe an American elected official—"Representative" is the usual designation, isn't it? This is makes me suspect that the American version is derived from the British version with M. P.

Also, the GW Hunt sheet music includes some spoken patter, indicating to me that the sheet music represents a transcription of a stage act—the picture of the artiste on the cover looks like a portrait. It seems possible that the sheet music was published to cash in on someone's celebrity (Hunt's, presumably) and that the attribution of authorship to him is spurious. I understand that it was common practice in the nineteenth century for entertainers or publishers to insist on claiming authorship as a condition of performing or publishing the work. For example, Henry von Tilzer is falsley credited as a creator of "Wait Till The Sun Shines, Nellie", when his only contribution was to publish it and to annex some of Andrew Sterling's royalties.

So I postulate that Burke either originated the song or adapted it from a so far unknown British source and that Burke's version was picked up by an American vaudeville performer who then published it as his own.
.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: r.padgett
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 06:01 AM

O right!

It is on my new CD and was/is on my old CD along with other East Anglian songs, Walter Pardon/P.Bellamy/Damien B/Joe Nicholson and of course Ray Padgett (been singing this a number of years now)

Ray

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Beer
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:23 PM

Tim, I love this song as well. I have never tried it though. Have you ever heard (you must have.) Jim Payne and Ron Hynes do this song? Just great.
Ad.

Old Brown's Daughter - Johnny Burke(1851-1930)
Ron Hynes(guitar,vocal), Jim Payne(vocal), John White(vocal), Bryan Hennessey(piano,bass)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: RTim
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 11:08 PM

I have been singing this song for over 30 years, and have been asked to sing it again
this month in a Music Hall show.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 09:21 PM

This is the song for January 3 for Jon Boden's A Folk Song a Day project.
It's an interesting song - worth another look.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 29 May 10 - 04:20 AM

OLIS lists his songs under George W. Hunt.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 07:18 AM

Sorry, Kilgarriff doesn't

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 05:23 PM

Does Kilgarriff (or anyone else) happen to mention Hunt's full name?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 06:56 AM

Yes Artful your attribution of authorship agrees with the authoritative Michael Kilgarriff in his indispensible Sing Us One of the Old Songs, A Guide to Popular Song 1860 -1920. Kilgarriff lists 56 of G W Hunt's songs including Old Brown's Daughter as well as the better known Up in a Balloon and Dear Old Pals. He also wrote Billy Johnson's Ball which like OBD is often performed in Folk clubs. Old Brown's Daughter must have been a well known music hall song because Kilgarriff lists it in the repertoire of the eminent performer Alfred 'The Great' Vance - as well as a parody version sung by Jenny Hill. Kilgarriff doesn't have a date for the song but G W Hunt's other songs all have dates between 1862 and 1883.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 02:24 AM

A little more context: G.W. Hunt (ca. 1839-1904) predates Johnny Burke by a good bit. The Levy has another of his songs, "It's Funny When You Feel That Way", dated 1856; I think A.P. Carter "refashioned" this song for one of his own. The music hall comedian Arthur Lloyd sang a slew of Hunt's songs, mostly written in the 1860's and 70's; you can find a list of them, with sheet music for some, at www.arthurlloyd.co.uk. Among those listed is "Old Brown's Daughter", with the notation "[ca. 1878]".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 01:57 AM

"Maybe he learned it from Ron Hynes?"
Walter Pardon got the song from the singing of his uncle, Billy Gee, who, in his turn, learned it from a local man at one of the regular singing sessions following an Agricultural Workers Union meeting in North Walsham, Norfolk some time around the end of the 19th century. It had been part of the Pardon family repertoire ever since.
The song is listed as having appeared on a broadside in 1872.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Artful Codger
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 01:50 AM

Sure it's by Johnny Burke? You can find sheet music for it at the John Hopkins Levy site, Box 048, Item 055, which says "Written & composed by G.W. Hunt". Burke published many songs besides his own in his paper.

From the Levy scan:


OLD BROWN'S DAUGHTER

There lives an ancient party / At the other end of town,
He keeps a little grocery shop / His ancient name is Brown!
He's got an only duaghter, / Such a party I ne'er saw,
By jingo I should like to be / The Old Chap's son-in-law.

CHORUS.
|: [For] Old Brown's daughter's a proper sort of girl,
Old Brown's daughter's as fair as any pearl,
I wish I was an Astor, or some such heavy Twirl,
I'm blow'd if I wouldn't marry Old Brown's girl. :|

2. Old Brown now he sells very nearly / Every thing you'd please,
Treacle, soap, and bundles of wood, / Lolly pops, and cheese;
His daughter minds the shop, / It's a treat to see her serve;
I'd like to run away with her, / But I havn't got the nerve.
CHORUS.

3. Poor Old Brown he's very often / Troubled with the gout,
He 'grumbles' in the little parlor, / When he can't get out;
Then I go and make a purchase, / O! and when she hands the change,
That gal makes me feel gal-vanized, / I feels so very strange.
CHORUS.

4. Miss Brown she smiles so sweetly, / When I makes a tender pun,
But Old Brown says that she shall wed, / A millionaire or none;
But I don't think as ever / One of them swells I shall be?
But by jingo next election / I shall put up for M. C.

SPOKEN.__I shall then get in the HOUSE wich is only next door to the SENATE "Who'll vote for Scroggings."__"Scroggings for REPRESENTATIVE "Scroggings for ever!"   "Scroggings the working man's friend"__Down with taxes and up with Scroggings" "Scroggings votes for everything. I think I'd stand a chance any how I shouldnt be the only muff in the House__and then I should be the happy owner of__CHORUS.

[From the cover:]
Written & composed by G. W. Hunt.
Lee & Walker, Philadelphia, 922 Chestnut St.
W.H. Boner & Co., 1102 Chestnut St.
Oliver Ditson & Co., Boston
A & S Nordheimer, Toronto, CA
Chas W Harris, New York

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (fromPeter Bella
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:17 PM

That's the first one I ran into, and is one of the unsatisfactory (to me) tunes.

That singer mentions a version by Great Big Sea. I found that one, too. That's the chief example of an indefinite and disorganized tune that I mentioned. Although it may merely be the indefinite and disorganized singing of Great Big Sea at the live session that gave that impression.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (fromPeter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,GEST
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:10 PM

http://wtv-zone.com/phyrst/audio/nfld/01/oldbrown.htm

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (fromPeter Bella
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:06 PM

"The Melody"?

I've run into three different melodies on the web, just today, in addition to the melody Peter Bellamy sang on the CD I have. At least as far as I could tell they were separate. All three were rather indefinite and disorganized, as I heard them.

Frankly, I MUCH prefer the one from Bellamy to the others I ran into.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (fromPeter Bellamy)
From: Beer
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:00 PM

Maybe he learned it from Ron Hynes?
Beer (adrien)

Old Brown's Daughter is a popular Newfoundland folk song. It was written by Johnny Burke (1851-1930), a popular St. John's balladeer. Later, the melody was rewritten by Newfoundland singer/songwriter Ron Hynes

Hynes' version was covered by Great Big Sea on their 1999 album, Turn.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Old Brown's Daughter (fromPeter Bellamy)
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 08:07 PM

And let's give credit to the singer from whom he learned the song ... Walter Pardon.
Derek Schofield

Subject: Lyr Add: OLD BROWN'S DAUGHTER (from Peter Bellamy)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:52 PM

OLD BROWN'S DAUGHTER (From Peter Bellamy)

There's an ancient party at the other end of town
He keeps a little chandler's shop, his ancient name is Brown
He has a lovely daughter, such a treat I never saw
By jingo I should like to be that old chap's son-in-law.

cho: Old Brown's daughter she's a proper sort of girl,
    Old Brown's daughter she's as fair as any pearl,
    I wish I were a Lord Mayor, a Marquis or an Earl
    I'm blowed if I wouldn't marry old Brown's girl.

Old Brown in his shop sells anything you please
He sells treacle, wood, buns and soap, and lollipops and cheese
Miss Brown she minds the counter, it's a treat to see her serve
I'd like to run away with her but I haven't got the nerve.

cho: Old Brown's daughter she's a proper sort of girl,
    Old Brown's daughter she's as fair as any pearl,
    I wish I were a Lord Mayor, a Marquis or an Earl
    I'm blowed if I wouldn't marry old Brown's girl.

Old Brown is often troubled with the gout,
He grumbles in his little parlour when he can't get out
Miss Brown she smiles so sweetly when she hands to me my change
She makes me feel so galvanised I feel so very strange

cho: For old Brown's daughter she's a proper sort of girl,
    Old Brown's daughter she's as fair as any pearl,
    I wish I were a Lord Mayor, a Marquis or an Earl
    I'm blowed if I wouldn't marry old Brown's girl.

Miss Brown she smiles so sweetly when I say a tender word
But Brown says she must marry a marquis or a lord,
I don't suppose that ever one of those swells I shall be
But by Jingo next election I shall put up as MP.

cho: 'Cause Old Brown's daughter she's a proper sort of girl,
    Old Brown's daughter she's as fair as any pearl,
    I wish I were a Lord Mayor, a Marquis or an Earl
    I'm blowed if I wouldn't marry old Brown's girl.

As sung by Peter Bellamy
DRO