BS: Least wanted in the UK

Subject: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:22 AM

BBC News article

I read this article with interest - esp since I've been monitoring the Micheal Savage show since he made remarks about people with autism. I find him to be especially nasty - an AM radio whacko that makes Rush Limbaugh sound like a commie pinko. The night before the presidential election Micheal Savage promised that Obama would execute millions of people before the end of his first term in office.

So what do you think - do countries have the responsibility to to keep people from visiting that promote hate? If they do - who gets to decide?

From the above BBC article:


Islamic extremists, white supremacists and a US radio host are among the 16 of 22 excluded in the five months to March to have been named by the Home Office.

Since 2005, the UK has been able to ban people who promote hatred, terrorist violence or serious criminal activity.

Among those listed are:

Hamas MP Yunis Al-Astal
Jewish extremist Mike Guzovsky.
Ku Klux Klan Grand Wizard Stephen 'Don' Black
Neo-Nazi Erich Gliebe
Fred Waldron Phelps Snr, American Baptist pastor, and his daughter Shirley Phelps
Talk show host Michael Savage is also excluded. His views on immigration, Islam, rape and autism have caused great offence in America.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:38 AM

So much for free speech; just because it offends doens't mean it should be banned.

Let them come in. We like a bit of robust debate on these Islands, so I'd be interested to see how they fare here.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 May 09 - 09:45 AM

That adds another question. In this day and age has their free speech been inhibited because they are not allowed to set foot in the UK? Those ideas are still out there for people who want to find them.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 May 09 - 10:18 AM

Rights of free speech are essentially a covenant between a government and its own citizens. A government is not required to extend the same rights of expression to foreign visitors as it extends to its own populace. US law requires that American Nazis be allowed to speak their minds, but it does not require that Norwegian Nazis be allowed into the country so they may do so.

Personally, I would prefer that my government allow anyone from anyplace free entry to say whatever he pleases, but that's just me speaking, not the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 May 09 - 10:25 AM

The "I will defend to the death his right to speak those views" does NOT Follow up with " And let any Bigot cross my borders"

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:19 PM

"In this day and age has their free speech been inhibited because they are not allowed to set foot in the UK? Those ideas are still out there for people who want to find them."

You may be able to banned the people from entetring the country, but you can prevent their ideas from getting in. After all, isn't that what the internet is for?

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 05 May 09 - 05:07 PM

This, shamefully, is modern Britain. Texts, e-mails, phone calls, internet sites visited, all recorded. DNA of the innocent kept on a database. More CCTV cameras than anywhere else, sound capture devices in our streets, snooping cameras hidden in bushes and rocks, police drones flying over open air concerts. No more free speech, thought word or deed. Sad eh ?

Believe me, I lead a peaceful law abiding existance but this scares me for our generation and my childrens generation. I don't want racist biggots,criminals, gangs and drug dealers or terorists but I don't want a police state either. At least allowing freedom of speech might stimulate debate and allow people to be informed and draw their own conclusions, but a population of controlled, manipulated people all frightened to think or behave differently is not how humans should behave. Eventually all creativity will be stiffled.There will be no freedom to demonstrate or object only to obey.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 05 May 09 - 06:21 PM

Modern Britain is also filling up with people who are not British,don't want to become British,and in some cases even hate the British.Until this unwelcome "status quo" changes,we will NEVER be free from suspicion,fear,and surveillance----too many people have abused our hospitality,and now our attempts at tolerance,understanding,and a desire to help and protect the less-fortunate are reaping the sad rewards of cultural mistrust and religious disharmony ; in the worst case scenario,as we have seen,even concerted and co-ordinated acts of terrorism carried out against an innocent and un-armed,defenceless populace.Enough is enough,I say---Why oh Why can't these trouble-making,disturbed,religious zealots take their culture-crushing,xenophobic ideologies someplace else ?? I want my England back !!

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:31 PM

Which England is that? The pre afro cariabean 1950's? The pre asian 1960's? The pre european 1970's ? or some faded picture of tea on the lawn England pre WW2? Or the England of pre WW1? Or is it the England before we (English/British) did the same to Africa, America,Austrailia, New Zealand, India, Ceylon, Iraq to name a few but non exhaustive list where we have imposed fear, our will and christian ethic? Or earlier the Crusades? The 100 years war? The American war of independance?

There hasn't been an England ever as far as I can see that we have not been involved in some invasion, war or minor skirmish.

"Why oh Why can't these trouble-making,disturbed,religious zealots take their culture-crushing,xenophobic ideologies someplace else ?? I want my (substitute your country here folks) back !!" I am sure the Celts said this, the Saxons and Vikings said this, I bet Hereward the Wake said it also about the Normans.

This level of surveillance need never have happened and won't solve anything. I sugest if you want something back try fighting for our freedom ! But of course then you would be labelled a terrorist.( By the way I mean peaceful protest)

I remember my father saying to me when I asked him why he fought in WW2 when he didn't need to (protected employment), that he fought for the freedom of people to be what they choose and against a state rule that segregated and crushed people, that imposed it's will on others by fear. He died, ashamed of what England/Britain had started to become.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: GUEST,eric the viking
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:34 PM

Sorry, that last post was also me. By the way I have invaded Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:51 PM

It seems an excellent starter list of proscribed persons.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 May 09 - 08:12 PM

Please feel free to let the 2 Americans on the list in...and keep them.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Neil D
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:15 AM

What Art said. Phelps and Savage are the worst that our far right has to offer. They are not interested in any sort of dialogue and ONLY want to rouse the rabble.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:08 AM

I wouldn't miss either of them either. But it wouldn't be right for us to pass our problems onto the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 May 09 - 01:24 PM

Reprinted from Micheal Savages website:

PUNISHING THOUGHT
Banned by U.K., Savage hits back
Radio talk star blocked from visits, along with terrorists, neo-Nazis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: May 05, 2009
8:26 am Eastern

© 2009 WorldNetDaily



Talk radio host Michael Savage is considering legal action against Britain's top homeland security official after she released today a list grouping him with terrorists and neo-Nazi murderers banned from entry because the government believes their views might provoke violence.

In a telephone interview with WND, Savage said he is still waiting to hear back from attorneys, but he noted Britain has very strict anti-defamation laws.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said she decided to publicize the list of 16 people banned since October to show the type of behavior Britain will not tolerate, according to U.K. news reports.

Savage's immediate reaction upon hearing the news was typically wry.

"Darn! And I was just planning a trip to England for their superior dental work and cuisine," he recalled thinking.

"Then it sank in," he told WND, "and I said, 'She said this is the kind of behavior we won't tolerate? She's linking me with mass murderers who are in prison for killing Jewish children on buses? For my speech? The country where the Magna Carta was created?'"

Smith explained to Britain's GMTV that she believed it was "important that people understand the sorts of values and sorts of standards that we have here, the fact that it's a privilege to come and the sort of things that mean you won't be welcome in this country."

"Coming to this country is a privilege," she said. "If you can't live by the rules that we live by, the standards and the values that we live by, we should exclude you from this country and, what's more, now we will make public those people that we have excluded."

Savage said he wants top First Amendment attorneys to represent him "in a major international case."

"I want to sue the British home secretary for defamation," he said, "for linking me up with murderers because of my opinions, my writings, my speaking – none of which have advocated any violence, ever."

Savage said the last time he was in Britain was about 20 years ago, and he had no immediate plans to return.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 09 - 02:24 PM

He has heard of executive privlege? Oh, no, perhaps not!

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 May 09 - 04:31 PM

What I want to know is how we can get them banished from the planet?

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 May 09 - 07:29 PM

On balance I think that "shock jocks" like this probably do more real harm than most terrorists can achieve - but I'd have thought the right time to ban him would have been if ever he tried to come here. As it is I rather imagine they have helped the man's career.

Subject: BS: Home Sec promotes Michael Savage?
From: robomatic
Date: 06 May 09 - 08:27 PM

Here's the NPR placement:

Michael Savage Banned In the U K

What occurs to me:

1) The irregularity of the list: It's a short list, originally not made public, and it seems downright whimsical- some are terrorists, some are leaders, some are merely loudmouths. What is the standard by which the list is imposed and why are there not thousands of people on the list by those standards?

2) In the case of Michael Savage, is this not giving the man a ton of free publicity?

3) If a person who is not dangerous nor a criminal makes a visit to another country and obeys all local laws, by what legality is he or she to be barred?

What to folks on t'other side of the pond think?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Sec promotes Michael Savage?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:32 PM

Michael Savage is Jewish. That's probably why they banned him.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Sec promotes Michael Savage?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 09 - 09:48 PM

Perhaps the UK sees Savage as in the category of someone yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre. Inciting to passion can easily lead to violence. My own thinking is that we- our nation - were lucky that some of those GOP rallies didn't end in looting and ravaging.

(Bad, Rig.)

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 09 - 11:39 PM

Savage's statements and rantngs, as I understand it, are receivable in the UK at least in part, and do not always comply with all local laws. We have, thankfully, hate speech legislation.

He is unlikely to have been barred because he is Jewish. Large parts of the UK establishment, government, media, commerce, and accountancy and legal professions are Jewish. Indeed, while Afro-Carribeans and Arabs are probably statistically under-represented in those sectors, and also (although decreasingly, I suspect) Asians and Orientals, it is possible that Jews are statistically over-represented.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 09 - 03:55 AM

I wonder what views Mr Savage had on the exclusion from the US of one Yusef Islam and what his comments would have been had Islam said he was going to sue US homeland security?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 May 09 - 09:24 AM

By the way - I've seen that Yusef Islam has a new CD out out but they've dropped the last name. He's being promoted as Yusaf - the artist that was Cat Stevens.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: pdq
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:11 PM

The name on the "banned list" is Dr. Michael Alan Weiner, one of the foremost scientists in the US. He has written over twenty books on herbal medicine, health and nutrition. He spent years in tropical forests looking for plants with medicinal value.

Here are the first few books I found on Amazon.com/ written by him:

Healing Children Naturally by Michael A. Weiner and Kathleen Goss (Paperback - Jan 1, 1994)
Maximum Immunity by Michael A. Weiner (Paperback - Mar 1, 1987)
The Antioxidant Cookbook: A Nutritionist's Secret Strategy by Michael Weiner and Janet Weiner (Paperback - Jan 1996)
Herbs That Heal: Prescription for Herbal Healing by Michael A. Weiner and Janet Weiner (Paperback - Jan 1, 1994)
The Complete Book of Homeopathy by Michael Weiner (Paperback - Nov 1, 1998)

Sounds too dangerous to be allowed in Britain?

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:22 PM

By the way - I've seen that Yusef Islam has a new CD out out but they've dropped the last name. He's being promoted as Yusaf - the artist that was Cat Stevens.

Dare I say it? maybe it was Yusef Islam's decision to drop his last name, sorry I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: robomatic
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:56 PM

The affair to me smacks of arbitrary use of delegated power. Not that that doesn't occur enough in the US. I think it's a clumsy move by Smith, and a publicity boon for Savage, if not the other folks on the list.

Subject: RE: BS: Least wanted in the UK
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 May 09 - 09:28 AM

"Dr. Michael Alan Weiner, one of the foremost scientists in the US."

Yes Dr Michael Weiner has a doctorate in nutrition as I understand it. I would dispute however that makes him one of the foremost scientists in the US. But even if he was - would that mean that he was unable to be a racist, a promoter of fear - or just plain an idiot? Your Dr. Michael Alan Weiner-Savage was recently quoted as saying that because of the swine flu that we shouldn't eat in Mexican restruants because the workers there wipe their behinds with their hands. Do that sound like one of the foremost scientists in the US? I also heard him say the night before the election that we could expect President Obama to execute millions of Americans before his first terms of office is over. Yeah - that's a foremost scientist you have there....