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BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking
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Subject: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: alanabit Date: 14 May 09 - 01:17 PM I need a text about the difference between logical and superstitious thinking for fourteen year olds. I wonder if anyone could point me in the right direction? If you have any anecdotes, which I could quickly turn into a text of circa 200 words, that would be fine too. Any inspiration Mudcatters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Amos Date: 14 May 09 - 01:25 PM I would start with several basic definitions. What is a fact? What is "evidence"? What is "objective"? What does the word superstition really mean? American Heritage makes a good junior dictionary. Second, I would ask them for examples of "if...then" propositions that are true (if I drop a glass of milk, it will fall on the floor) and not true (if you step on a crack, break your mother's back). Third, I would go into what makes a class and what is ture about classes (all children are born...James is a child...therefore...) and what is NOT true about classes (All Muslims are terrorists, etc....) and the difference between a true "if==>then" porposition and a false one. This can all be done very simply based on the limited experience and language skills they already have. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: gnu Date: 14 May 09 - 01:26 PM Success is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. Especially if yer doin it wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: gnu Date: 14 May 09 - 01:29 PM A hoops B, then C.... fond memories. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: VirginiaTam Date: 14 May 09 - 01:34 PM Believing in magic the superstition instinct just some stuff to be getting on with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: alanabit Date: 14 May 09 - 03:11 PM Thanks everyone, but what I could really use is a short story, an allegory or an anecdote along the lines of a Zelig story or something like that. Can anyone call one to mind? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Bill D Date: 14 May 09 - 03:27 PM My philosophy prof. used to do it by extreme examples which the kids would NOT believe. He'd say, "Suppose I tell you that elves built this building (Fiske Hall) that we are in. Would you believe me? And if not, why not? And what would YOU say to convince ME otherwise...or that my belief was not well-founded" Pretty soon, he'd have the basics of the counter argument offered up by the students. This can get the point across, but human beings are perfectly capable of saying, "well, your example is obviously silly, but my friend's grandmother SAW a ghost!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: alanabit Date: 14 May 09 - 03:52 PM What could be useful is another story along the lines of "The Hound of the Baskervilles". The facts are: That several Baskervilles have been found dead on the moors. Nobody saw any evidence of foul play. One Baskerville two hundred years previously was said to have been found dead on the moors, following an attempted rape. The superstition, which emerges, is that a big dog out on the moors appears to see off the Baskervilles. Of course, our Sherlock has difficulty believing in a 200 year old dog, whose sole reason for existence is to terminate the the heirs of one unfortunate family. So he applies logical thinking to the problem and comes up with some better answers. What I could use is a short story or allegory, which does something similar. Any ideas? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Paul Burke Date: 14 May 09 - 06:24 PM One of the great nuclear physicists of the pioneering days of the 1920s had a horseshoe nailed to his lab door. A visitor expressed surprise that a man of science would have such a blatantly superstitious symbol- surely he didn't credit such rubbish? "Well", the scientist replied, "They say it works whether you believe in it or not." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Donuel Date: 14 May 09 - 06:44 PM "You are not THINKING, you are merely using logic." Quote by Neils Bohr to Albert Einstein. I once posted merely 50 pages of my suppositions regarding the quantum influences on thought itself. Such as the idea that observation and intention have an effect in other dimensions that defy our current closed minded idea of time and the 4th dimension. Some people liked it and some were offended. One member claimed recently that anything I post even now has no crediblitlity since "magical thinking" is baseless. (I still don't understand his motive or vehemence) There are subjects where it is perfectly acceptable and necessary to use uber thinking and invention to describe new concepts or even the future itself. Jules Verne did a pretty good job of it. As for the critics and linear minds of his day, we do not remember their names. If you take only a narrow interpretation of the concept of superstion, I would isolate the word superstion to a self centered religious dogma. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Rowan Date: 14 May 09 - 08:04 PM About 25 years ago Scientific American ran an article on the prevalence of belief, contradicted by evidence, among university students who ought to know better. All of them had passed tests that demonstrated their knowledge of the formulae that showed the path of a cannon ball, shot into the air at an angle (say, 45 degrees' elevation) was parabolic. Yet something like 75% of them, when asked to draw the path of such a cannon ball, drew a path that mirrored the mediaeval belief; such a ball rose to its maximum height and then dropped vertically. Similarly, they had passed tests demonstrating they understood centripetal and centrifugal forces and all of Newton's formulae on forces and motion. Yet, when faced with a scenario involving someone rolling a billiard ball on a billiard table around a circle ( the billiard ball being tethered to the circle's centre) and asked to draw the path of the ball should the string/tether suddenly break, something like 75% of them drew the ball moving in a curved path rather than the correct straight line tangential path they had proved mathematically. Not "superstition" exactly, but close to it. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Amos Date: 14 May 09 - 08:20 PM Aesop's fables often demonstrate the difference. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Peace Date: 14 May 09 - 08:40 PM "The Black Cat" by Poe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: robomatic Date: 14 May 09 - 09:13 PM "Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it." -Philip K. Dick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Joe_F Date: 14 May 09 - 09:34 PM "Do you believe in *that*?" "No, but they say it works even if you don't." -- Anon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Janie Date: 14 May 09 - 09:36 PM I like that, robomatic. I'm going to hand it out in the DBT group I facilitate when we talk about radical acceptance. Thanks! alanabit, I'm not sure that logical thinking vs superstitiuos thinking is quite the right equation, though if you are teaching a curriculum, those may be the terms you are obliged to use. Superstition often has it's own internal logic based on beliefs that are accepted as fact. Afraid I am not literary enough to offer any suggestions regarding illustrative short stories, but myths might be a place to look - especially minor myths to explain natural phenomena that do not delve much into archetypes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Peace Date: 14 May 09 - 09:39 PM "Charlotte's Web" "Animal Farm" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: robomatic Date: 14 May 09 - 09:40 PM The tale of the minister who refused to be rescued during the flood comes to mind: Some of his parishioners drove over and offered to give him a lift. He said "No, the Lord will provide for me." After the water had risen, some rescuers came by in a boat and offered to take him aboard. He said "The Lord will take care of it." The water rose and he found himself on his rooftop. The Coast Guard came over with a helicopter and he sent it away, "Go find someone else, God is watching over me." Well, he drowned, and was in a fine temper when he came before God, "Why didn't you provide for me?" I SENT YOU A CAR, A BOAT, and A HELICOPTER!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Stilly River Sage Date: 14 May 09 - 11:24 PM A mudcatter posted this link a while back, and I picked it up and sent it along to a couple of folks. Open-mindedness is dealing with the kind of thing you're asking about--logic versus supernatural (superstitious). It's very good, very clear, not talking down. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 15 May 09 - 12:33 AM This is not quick - it is not easy - but it is real.
Alan - what you seek to teach is one of the most important lessons of modern life. Best Wishes and KUDOs for the attempt.
You will not find a simple truth, embroyaled in a 200 word fable that will fulfill your task. However, your request comes at a MOST opportune Mudcat time. Allow the student to discover and uncover, to relate and pontificate...upon the current OBIT (aka Good Thought) thread in the "lower Mudcat region.",,,,,,, Student's emotions will become involved and the facts are at the beginning and then again at the end ultimately clear.
My suggestion for a lesson plan is:
Begin with one of the earliest factual newspaper accounts. Follow immediately with examples of Mudcatters "good thoughts"
Ugly, Rude, Crude, Real, Dramatic,Thematic - There are over 500 entries that can be edited down to a concise six up to 12 on each day's handout for discussion and responce.
Your 14 y.o.student WILL relate and grow. (Being open source - you may eventually "copyright" a classic lesson for a national text.)
Best Wishes again and KUDOs for the attempt.
Sincerely,
My ver first temptation was to layout "MY" entire "argument" - I then realized that youth learn by DOING and not by 200 word moral essays pontificated from a podium. (or much less an e-mail from a cajouling relative.)
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 15 May 09 - 12:40 AM Amos - (not intending to be intentionaly contrary)
I immediately dodged over to Aesop's Fables - in my mind like you. Unfortunately, after leafing through the index - nada.
Amos - since you have stated the A.F. is full of examples - could you give ONE example ? ? ? When posting a responce - it helps to have a precise example.
Sincerely,
Fox and the Grapes is not even close. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 15 May 09 - 12:44 AM Alan - regarding the lesson plan.
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: alanabit Date: 15 May 09 - 12:51 AM Thanks everyone. I have to dash off to do two class tests now... I will read this again and use some of the ideas. Aesop sounds like a good idea. I was also thinking about Plato's allegory of the cave, if I could get that down to 200 words! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Amos Date: 15 May 09 - 01:26 AM Gargoyle: The Tortoise and the Hare, and the Wolf and the Lamb, come to mind at once. The wolf wise assertion, "It is not you that mocks me but your place." is a clear differentiation between falsehood and truth. The hare's fixed idea that he could not lose cost him the race. Untruth (false data) and fixed ideas are the very antonyms of logic. One of the things most difficult to teach is the illogic of the premature conclusion, based on the failure to recognize what data is omitted, or denied one for one or another reason. The energy needed to go search out the left out data is much greater than the convenient alternative of just concluding based on what one has. Uncle Remus' tales have a few lessons in bad logic in them, too--like resorting to violence against tar babies, or failing to ask why a rabbit would fear a briar patch. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Peace Date: 15 May 09 - 01:29 AM I used "AotC" before. For 14 year olds I'd want to get to the shadows. Who knows? The Shadow knows . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Peace Date: 15 May 09 - 01:30 AM Shadows start many superstitions, and getting that back to logic would be fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Amos Date: 15 May 09 - 01:30 AM In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest. "Why not come and chat with me," said the Grasshopper, "instead of toiling and moiling in that way?" "I am helping to lay up food for the winter," said the Ant, "and recommend you to do the same." "Why bother about winter?" said the Grasshopper; we have got plenty of food at present." But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil. When the winter came the Grasshopper had no food and found itself dying of hunger, while it saw the ants distributing every day corn and grain from the stores they had collected in the summer. Then the Grasshopper knew: It is best to prepare for the days of necessity. AF demonstrates that denying reality is counterproductive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Peace Date: 15 May 09 - 01:33 AM I feel that way when I vote . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: GUEST,lox Date: 15 May 09 - 05:30 AM true amos, but none of them specifically explains or illustrates the difference between scientific thinking and superstitious thinking. To extract such a meaning would require creative interpretation and for kids requiring a clear example to make a point clearer this would prove confusing and counterproductive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 15 May 09 - 07:24 AM A bit more challenging than expected. I went over to Catholic Church homilies - some very strange stuff but Nothing that fits -(in fact quite the opposite) the last one is amusing. WWJD?
Child Saved in Cork By Saint's Relics
Tree Splits Grave
Trials of Teaching
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Mrrzy Date: 15 May 09 - 03:27 PM Try this video. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 15 May 09 - 06:55 PM So far I have seen no definition of superstition. Who decides what is or is not a superstition? I tend to be very logical but also very spirit based. I use a pendulum to choose foods, supplements, and to make certain decisions. Some people find this "witchcraft", "woo woo stuff" etc. I find it merely draws on my own inner wisdom. To me, it is totally logical; to others superstition. We need to be very careful about this use of words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: katlaughing Date: 16 May 09 - 12:27 AM Not an allegory, but this is some interesting, sort of related reading: Revivialist Thinking and Student Conceptualizations of Science/Religion YOu might be able to come up with one from this: In this essay, I explore a set of remembered, founding values for organizational studies articulated by the first editor of ASQ, James D. Thompson (1956) in the first issue of the journal. The vehicle I use to explore these values is a story of organizing and death that played itself out in two separate disasters involving crews engaged in wildland firefighting. In 1949, 13 firefighters lost their lives at Mann Gulch, and in 1994, 14 more firefighters lost their lives under similar conditions at South Canyon. In both cases, these 23 men and four women were overrun by exploding fires when their retreat was slowed because they failed to drop the heavy tools they were carrying. By keeping their tools, they lost valuable distance they could have covered more quickly if they had been lighter (Putnam, 1994, 1995). All 27 perished within sight of safe areas. The question is, why did the firefighters keep their tools? The imperative, "drop your tools......you have to have a subscription to read the rest Here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: M.Ted Date: 16 May 09 - 01:16 AM Dorothy Parshall makes a very important point--logical thinking and superstitious thinking are not opposite to one another. Logic is a tool, and it has been used to forward superstion on many occasions. "Rational" and "Irrational" are probably more what you're looking for. A warning here: kids tend to be much better at applying logic, and using logical argumentation, than adults. It doesn't mean that their judgment is better, though-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Dave the Gnome Date: 16 May 09 - 06:18 AM If you do not walk under a ladder are you being superstitious, because people say it is bad luck; or are you being logical, because it makes sense to avoid potential hazards? DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket Date: 16 May 09 - 08:30 AM As some will have read, a close friend of mine is seriously ill. I've caught myself indulging in all sorts of strange, superstitious thinking- normally I'm very much a rationalist. For example, feeling that if I got the sudoku wrong, that would be bad luck for her- one day, I even went to the extent of tippexing one out and re-doing it right! And feeling that, when visiting the hospital, I had to take the same, rather convoluted, route that we took when we took her in. Superstition is inversely proportional to the power we have over events. DeG- it could be superstitious to deliberately walk beneath a ladder, just to prove you aren't superstitious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Dorothy Parshall Date: 16 May 09 - 10:12 AM From Wik: Superstition (Latin superstitio, literally "standing over"; derived perhaps from standing in awe;[1] used in Latin as an unreasonable or excessive belief in fear or magic, especially foreign or fantastical ideas, and thus came to mean a "cult" in the Roman empire)[2][3] is a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge. The word is often used pejoratively to refer to supposedly irrational beliefs of others, and its precise meaning is therefore subjective. It is commonly applied to beliefs and practices surrounding luck, prophecy and spiritual beings, particularly the irrational belief that future events can be influenced or foretold by specific, unrelated behaviours or occurrences. To medieval scholars the word was applied to any beliefs outside of or in opposition to Christianity; today it is applied to conceptions without foundation in, or in contravention of, scientific and logical knowledge.[4] Many extant superstitions are said to have originated during the plagues that swept through Europe. According to legend, during the time of a plague, Saint Gregory I the Great ordered that people say "God bless you" when somebody sneezed, to prevent the spread of the disease.[5] This brings up many -controversial - thoughts but I have to get to the farm market to peddle pottery. Later... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Amos Date: 16 May 09 - 10:44 AM Two recent works on how and why we are inclined to believe things that just ain't so are The Black Swan and "How We Know What Isn't So" by Thomas Gilovich. They are both fairly good, although each f them int her own way demonstrates blindness to their own premises. And, as we all know, from poor premises, anything can follow with perfect logicality. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Janie Date: 16 May 09 - 05:17 PM M. Ted, Exactly. Which is what I didn't exactly say but should have:>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: Bill D Date: 16 May 09 - 06:41 PM Following up on Dororthy Pashall and M. Ted: One must indeed be very careful about the use of language, .....and of technical terms. "To me, it is totally logical; .." is a problem in itself. Logic is something not related to personal attitudes. I'm sure Dorothy means the use of certain ways of focusing is useful, but 'logical' implies validity within a set of premises, not 'true' or 'real'...etc. The phrase "spirit based" means something TO Dorothy, but to readers it can seem to imply something she may-or may- not mean about what actually IS. It is possible to construct totally 'logical' syllogisms that either have no meaning at all, or begin with false or dubious premises- leading to conclusions that cannot be trusted. Why is this important? Because humans have the ability to use symbols, concepts, words...etc., that help them focus, refer, describe, etc, yet which have no referents in the real world. It can be described as a form of poetry. The danger is when one crosses that line from 'useful poetic concept' to tacitly assuming there IS a 'reality' to the concept(s). Just because we all 'know' what a unicorn looks like, it does not follow that there are any....and the same holds true for angels, ghosts, elves, and other ideas. (yes, I know...it doesn't prove there are not, but there IS some need to know which things can be independently verified.) Similarly, people sometimes treat ideas like 'bad luck' as if they are some sort of 'force', rather than a simple description of desirable vs. undesirable events. So, yes...words are tricky, and superstition often involves attributing too much to their referent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Logical vs superstitious thinking From: katlaughing Date: 16 May 09 - 07:36 PM kids tend to be much better at applying logic, and using logical argumentation, than adults. It doesn't mean that their judgment is better, though-- My five year old grandson demonstrates this daily...oftentimes his judgement IS better than whomever is involved.:-) |
