Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 31 May 09 - 07:54 PM

JUST AN ASIDE;

Azizi,
I have heard that Yusef Lateef once got his wife angry at him and she yelled at him, "Lateef, go screw Yusef!"

(Could that be true? ;-)

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 May 09 - 11:58 AM

*When I first read this I thought that "rags" referred to tattered clothes. But then I remembered that I was reading a book about early jazz. It therefore seems most likely that in this context, the word "rags" refers to "ragtime music".

The popular notion of the derivaton of ragtime is from the concept of "ragged time" - i.e. the syncopation of the music. However, a more modern theory is that it derives from the habit of the dancers - the cakewalkers - getting dressed in their best clothes, i.e. their "glad rags" to dance and socialise to the music. It's difficult to know which is correct, but both are interesting possibilities.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 31 May 09 - 11:49 AM

"...But perhaps one is not right to hurl personal recriminations at the members of the O.D.J.B. Perhaps they did not deliberately "purge away" anything. They may have played honestly what they felt, understood, and could play, by and large. If their music had the social function of sentimentalizing an urgent Negro idiom for the benefit of whites, how far can one go in blaming them personally?"

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 May 09 - 11:08 AM

Corrections:

"And it is Keppard's Creole Band, by the way, that jelly Roll Morton offered as the direct origin of the O. DlJ.B.'s style."

.."the first strain of Fidgity Feet echoes At a Georgia Camp Town Meeting (1897)"

**

Here's another quote from William's Jazz Masters of New Orleans :

"Music historian Wilfred Mellers puts the case in extreme terms in comparing the O.D.J.B records to those of Jelly Roll Morton and King Oliver. At the same time, he touched on a psychological truth that most white Americans have still to deal with:

"The wildness of the blues, the tension of the heterophony, have vanished, leaving only a eupeptic jauntiness. Oliver makes something positive, even gay, out of a painful reality; the Dixieland Band, purging away both passion and the irony, leave is with the inane grin of the black-faced minstrel. The brassy, reedy sonority of the Negro band- which can be simultaneously hard as nails and warmly sensitive-becomes a footling tootle; the perpetual jigging of the dotted rhythm becomes a jerking of puppets. All that comes over as genuine is an element of pathos beneath the merriment. If there was pathos in the vivacity of the Negro rags*, it is sadder still to find white men-with or without blackened faces, wearing the same mask. The pathos is for the most part extra-musical."

Mellers is speaking about the music's effect, of course, and a comparative effect at that, which (for Oliver's group at least) is out of historical order and context. But perhaps one is not right to hurl personal recriminations at the members of the O.D.J.B. Perhaps they did not deliberately "purge away" anything. They may have played honestly what they felt, understood, and could play, by and large. If their music had the social function of sentimentalizing an urgent Negro idiom for the benefit of whites, how far can one go in blaming them personally?"

pp 32-33

*When I first read this I thought that "rags" referred to tattered clothes. But then I remembered that I was reading a book about early jazz. It therefore seems most likely that in this context, the word "rags" refers to "ragtime music".

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 May 09 - 10:46 AM

Sorry about the italic font. At least it's not bold {font].

**

Will, I've not read either of those two books. Even if they are flawed, it sounds like they're worth the read since you never know what historical gems you can find even in books that are biased.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 May 09 - 10:42 AM

The first chapter of Martin William's book Jazz Masters of New Orleans is titled "Buddy The King". "Buddy" is the cornetist Charles "Buddy" Bolden.

Here are two quotes that preface that chapter:

He'd [Buddy Bolden] take one note and put to or three to it. He began to teach them-not by the music -just by the head. ... They had lots of band fellows could play like that after Bolden gave ;em the idea.
-Wallace Collins

Bolden cause all that. ... He cause these younger Creoles, men like Betchet and Kepplard, to have a different style from old heads like Tio and Perez.
-Paul Dominguez

p. 1

William's writes that ..."Bolden was "King" to the populace by their own proclamation, and "a man who started it all" in New Orleans jazz to the musicians. So what he did was give the music a dramatic, secular focus, both for his audiences and for its present and future practitioners.

p. 3

As to the music traditions which influenced Buddy Bolden, Williams writes

"Buddy Bolden was seven years old when the dances at [New Orleans'] Congo Square were stopped.We can assume that, like nearly everyone else, he was present at the first outings in the area that was to become Lincoln Park*. Marshall Sterns conjectures that he attended "underground" vodun meetings. We know that he was a Baptist and that Negro Baptist musical culture was well established. He grew up with brass bands and parades all around him. (And it is worth remarking here that "cutting contests" between local "star" cornetists are traditionally a part of American Sunday afternoon band concerts.) Mutt Carey has declared that Bolden took basic musical lessons from the celebrations at "a holy roller church".**...

Bolden's career was short-incredibly short in view of its importance. He was born, in 1868, a child of the Emancipation, and he had become a celebrity at least by 1895. He did not die until 1931, but he was committed to the East Louisiana State Hospital on June 5, 1907, eventually diagnosed as a paranoid, and he stayed there the rest of his life".

pp. 10, 11

* "Lincoln Park was a recreational, and music listening/dancing area that took the place of of Congo Square when the city closed that area.

** "holy roller" is a colloquial term for the evangelical Christian denomination Church of God In Christ (COGIC) that is known, among other things, for its exuberant music.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 31 May 09 - 10:17 AM

Fascinating stuff, Azizi. It's ironic that, when the ODJB travelled to play in England, music hall stars of the day, particularly George Robey, wanted them taken off the music hall bills for playing degenerate music. I wish dear old George could have heard Buddy Bolden, King Oliver and Morton!

Have you read "Mr. Jelly Lord" by Alan Lomax, and "They All Played Ragtime" by Rudi Blesh? The Lomax book is flawed, to be sure, but still very interesting for how Morton was ripped off by the white publishing establishment and "rubbished" by some later musicians and bandleaders. The Blesh book is interesting for a similar reason - to show how the elegance and intricacy of ragtime by the original black composers (particularly Joplin) became flashy, simplified and debased by later, more commercial composers.

I must go back to my bookshelf and have a re-read...!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 31 May 09 - 10:09 AM

This thread inspired me to actually read a book that I bought from a used book store some years ago Martin William's Jazz Masters of New Orleans (New York;The Macmillian Company, 1967.

Here is an excerpt from that book's introduction:

"As any history of the music will tell us, jazz started in New Orleans.

Surely it must have, for in 1917 a group of musicians from New Orleans suddenly found themselves a success in New York City, playing a music they had learned there. On their records, they were called "Dixie Jass Band" and later "Original Dixieland Jazz Band." And a few years earlier, it turns out, the Original Creole Orchestra, from New Orleans, had been playing the same style on the Orpheum Theater circuit"...

p. xi

-snip-

While reading this book, I finally "got" that the word "original" in the name "Original Dixieland Jazz Band" was added to promote the tale that these musicians were the original creators of the music called jass/jazz.

..."the [Nick] LaRocca group, which was by now appearing at the Casino Gardens as the Dixie Jass Band.

Soon after, a booker approached Brown for another New York job, but his group had dissolved by then and he recommended the LaRocca group. Thus on January 15 the "Dixie Jasz (sic) Band" opened in a club called the Paradise in New York...At first business was hardly sensational. Apparently, the management had trouble persuading the public that the music was supposed to be danced to, but it hung on. It had two other ballrooms in the building offering waltzes which helped to pay the freight. And by the end of the year nightclubbers were flocking to Reinsenweber's third floor; the Paradise club had become fashionably "in," and had raised its prices and the band's pay. Soon an electric sign outside read "The Original Dixieland Band-Creators of Jazz."
pp 29-30.


-snip-

Author Martin William also asserts that the ODJB frequently "borrowed" from other bands and musicians.

"The group was first recorded by Columbia, then Victor, then Aeolian, but the Victory record of Livery Stable Blues and Dixie Jass Band One Step (later Original Dixieland One-Step) was the seller. The former title was apparently responsible for its huge success. It featured rooster sounds from Shields' clarinet, cow moos from Edwards, and horse whinneys ( out of Freddy Keppard's lighter moments, the old timer's say) from Ka Rocca. The public thought the music was hilarious. And so, in a sense it was. But to any who knew its sources, the effect of its reception and popularity must have painfully ironic. And it's Keppard's Creole Band, by the way, that Jelly Roll Morton as the direct origin of the O.D.J.B.'s style.

The recordings put the O.D.J.B. repertory on wax. The tunes were each made up of several parts or strains, a form modeled on ragtime pieces, but played differently, and many of them, according to musicians still down home, borrowed from the repertory of the colored bands of New Orleans...

p. 30

This is from a foot note found on that same page:   

It might be further noted that the melody of Barnyard Blues or Livery Stable Blues is taken from Stephen Adam's hymn, The Holy City; that the first strain of Fidgity Feet echoes At a Georgia Cam[ Town Meeting (1897); the third stain of Dixieland One-Step echoes That Teasin' Rag (1909); that the main strain to At The Jazz Ball uses the chords to Shine On Harvest Moon; and that Tiger Rag has the same chords as Sousa's National Emblem March.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 26 May 09 - 02:36 PM

Lots of interesting stuff is brought to this thread. Taking all the academic study and analysis out of the equation, though, leaves you with the sounds. Music is ever-evolving and reflective of the times in which it is made. To look back through a 21st century prism in reviewing and evaluating the performers of 50 or 100 years ago must be a seductive enterprise - so many engage in it.

I have been privileged to see, in small clubs, some of the great jazz musicians of the forties, fifties and sixties - Charlie Byrd, Yusef Lateef, Cannonball and Nat Adderley, Jonah Jones, Cal Tjader, Terry Gibbs, Gerald Wilson, the Oscar Peterson Trio (with Ed Thigpen and Ray Brown)and Mose Allison, among others. They're all great to me, though I am sure I'd get arguments on their merits from some. I'm no historian, though I respect the roots of the music and those who helped it along. My first musical "idol" was trombonist Jack Teagarden. His playing and vocalizing influenced me as a folk singer, of all things.

Paul Whiteman was the "500 pound gorilla" in the music business in his heyday. He helped to make jazz, at least in some form, available to the masses who had not really heard it. A lot of them sought it out and helped popularize it as a direct result. I think jazz, in a weird way, is neither black nor white, but beige.

I am a listener and fan - a dedicated "eclecticist," if such a word exists. I love certain sounds and seek them out, in many genre. Labels don't do much for me, but the music sure does.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 26 May 09 - 02:36 PM

I'd just like to say that I have never read one word written about Jazz.

I've learned the slow way by listening and I've been very deeply privileged to meet a couple of the old guard.

When you are talking about Jazz history and the person you are learning from tells you what "we did" as opposed to what "they did" you feel like you have a phone back to 1935.

I agree that conversations are limited not helped by value judgements and I like the Miles Davis quote concerning figs ...

He was someone who, while producing art albums that, unbeknownst to him at the time, would revolutionize jazz, at the same time was quite happy to perform a bit of bebop.

Jazz is like classical - you have to know what came before if you are to be able to make any claim to knowing whats going on.

A standing joke is about the Avant Garde musician who one day, whilst banging out his usual random dissonances, "discovers" a major triad.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: meself
Date: 26 May 09 - 01:43 PM

I thought Jelly Roll Morton invented jazz one Sunday afternoon in 1907 ...

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 May 09 - 01:16 PM

From the 20s ("The Jazz Age") though the big-band era of the 40s, the word "jazz" was generally applied to the "mainstream" popular dance music of the day. It was not until the post-war be-bop era that jazz became something of a specialized taste, appealing only to a small and supposedly sophisticated audience.

Paul Whiteman was indeed "king," for a time, of the popular music known as jazz, because he had the network (radio) contracts and he made enough money to pay the highest wages to players, pretty much assuring himself the best available musicians.

Well, the best white jazz musicians, anyway, but that's because of the prevailing culture ~ Paul Whiteman didn't invent racial segregation, he just functioned within its boundaries. Jazz musicians in general (including even bandleaders!) have always been among the least racist people in our society, because they've always played together, offstage if not on, and recognized that their fellow players' talents have nothing to do with race.

Paul Whiteman commissioned George Gershwin to write Rhapsody in Blue, and arranged for its debut performance at a prestigious venue (Carnegie Hall, if I'm not mistaken); think about that for a minute. Most of us undoubtedly recognize what a hugely important figure Gershwin was and is in 20th century American music ~ but there was a time when Paul Whiteman was more influential and more powerful than even Gershwin.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 26 May 09 - 11:36 AM

Just a minor point for Stringsinger...

The Yerba Buena Jazz Band was the vision of Lu Watters who wanted to keep New Orleans style Jazz alive. He put in about a decade or so, until it became work rather than fun. Watters retired about 1950 and both his trumpet palyer, Bob Scobey, and his trombone player "Turk" Murphy formed their own bands.

Your story is probably about a visit to Scobey's group called the Frisco Jazz Band. Scobey died at 46 from cancer.

"Turk" Murphy continued to work for a long time. He was the king of Traditional Jazz in the SF Bay Area. He also died of a cancer, but at 71.

You would probably like the concert that Barbara Dane did about 1963 when she talked Lu Watters into putting together a group to back her in a concert to protest Marincello, a huge housing developement that would have spoiled a large part of Marin County. The developement was killed. A rare victory for protest singing. Perhaps the Jazz helped.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 09 - 11:03 AM

Frank,

Thank you for your comments. As always, I'm honored to have the opportunity to learn from you and from others who know what they are talking about from direct experiences and not just from reading.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 May 09 - 10:52 AM

M. Ted, what you say about arrangements apply more to ensemble playing but the solos are not always as premeditated. Pops had a unique solo approach as did Bird. The Duke was primarily an arranger and bandleader which would have influenced his opinion. Jelly Roll also controlled the arrangements in his band "The Red Hot Peppers" but there are classic solos such as Omer Simeon on "Dr. Jazz" which reflect spontaneity and originality. There are cliches that are built up by every player but they are changed in their application in their solo work. This is why Bird was able to influence so many as was Louis.

Frank

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 May 09 - 10:45 AM

Azizi,
Regarding the issue of White Jazz and Black Jazz, I think it would be safe to say that the real inspiration for the origination of jazz comes from the black musicians of New Orleans.
That where the ODJB got their inspiration although in New Orleans, there were white musicians who played in the style.

Jazz has always been cross-racial and cross-cultural in application. Louis refused to play in a band that wasn't integrated in his later years. He also was disgusted with what New Orleans had become in it's takeover by white racists in its politics. He never wanted to go back. Jazz blurs the racial lines (thank goodness) and the only segregation occurs not among the musicians but the usual political forces that guide bookers and non-musicians. The ODJB had racist comments to make about the role of the black musician but they can be treated as a product of neanderthal thinking.

Any jazz musician worthwhile today has to acknowledge the role of both black and white influences in jazz.

Frank

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 May 09 - 10:33 AM

Azizi,

Paul Whiteman was emphatically not the King of Jazz. It was a PR statement.
He had some very good jazz musicians in his band notably Bix Beiderbecke and
Eddie Lang (Salvatore Massaro) who was a great influential acoustic jazz guitarist,
Mike Pinkatore on banjo and a classical arranger Ferde Grofe who was known for the "Grand Canyon Suite". Joe Venuti (great jazz violinists) was also in the band.

There is a video(short movie) called King of Jazz which is very good in that it displays
Eddie Lang's talent, Harry Barris and the Rhythm Boys singing "Happy Feet" featuring the unknown at the time Bing Crosby (who could sing jazz).

Basically, this band was the precursor of swing bands and less representative of the Dixie/New Orleans tradition of small ensemble playing.

As to the origin of what we call jazz, New Orleans was definitely the spawning place.
Lulu White and the Mahogany Hall whorehouse employed many jazz musicians and if you think about "jazz" (originally jass) and "rock", both are sexual euphemisms.

The first commercial recording of trad jazz was "The Original Dixieland Jass Band in the 1900's. Later, the New Orleans Rhythm Kings and Louis Armstrong's Hot Five (and Seven).
The ODJB were responsible for the term "Dixieland" to describe what they played.

Sidney Bechet was not a nice man. He killed a prostitute in Paris and got off because of his reputation. He used to chase Mesirow around with a loaded gun. He played well.
His vibrato could be considered to be a little too much. Lots of imagination, though.



I caution you to be careful about some of the comments of other musicians about certain players. Jazz musicians tend to be highly opinionated about their likes and dislikes.
Anyone who achieves stature in the jazz world has got to be a great musician. The music requires it.

When it comes to tradition New Orleans style jazz, there is a lot of passion about it and
strong opinions. Leonard Feather can't be trusted to make an evaluation that is very objective. He's too influenced by be-bop and modern jazz. His comments on Jelly Roll Morton and Django Reinhardt are a case in point. The famous story is how Miles Davis sat in with Bob Scobey and the Yerba Buena Jazz Band (a San Francisco trad jazz revival band).
Someone came up to MIles and criticized him for sitting in with a "moldy fig" band.
Miles said, "You've been reading that ass hole Leonard Feather, haven't you?"

The best thing as in folk music is to do a lot of listening and come to your own conclusions. Jazz criticism is an oxymoron.

John Coltrane is certainly another musican who has influenced jazz. Miles changed his style of playing after working with Trane.

Creole by definition is a branch of African-American. Labels certainly obscure genetic and racial aspects.

Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker were two of the most important figures in jazz because their playing changed the course of American jazz. Many of the swing bands of the Thirties incorporated the solo style of playing that Armstrong created and the arrangements of the bands reflect Louis' style o playing specifically. Parker did the same thing as a potent influence on the musicians around him.

Kid Ory (unimaginative)? Ridiculous. He was one of the great early New Orleans trombone "shouters" defining the tailgate style of playing with Louis Armstrong and the Hot Five.
He played elegant simple but tasteful solos such as on "West End Blues" and had a driving style like "Big" Jim Robinson and Honore Dutrey (with Jelly Roll's Red Hot Peppers). It was classic New Orleans style.

Just as in folk music, there is a lot of disinformation out there. You can take much of what you read with a grain of salt. Jazz criticism is a lot like folk criticism. Opinions galore but the real substance of understanding comes from personal listening and experience.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 09 - 08:04 AM

Miles Davis' "Sketches of Spain" was mentioned above thread. That's one album I've heard. Here's a link to a YouTube video of an unnamed orchestra playing that music:

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CZFnyXwlV4
Sketches of Spain

"The 5th movement, performed Live in Chicago."

**

Also, here's a link to a YouTube video of Miles Davis & Gil Evans 1959:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFaK4q0pxcQ&feature=related

"Miles Davis and Gil Evans in 1959. In this video only the last song (New Rumba) is missing".

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 09 - 07:54 AM

I hasten to say that I really am not clear about what I meant by "Dixieland jazz song" (other than a jazzed up version of "When The Saints Go Marching In" and "classical jazz song".
Maybe the latter is what matt milton,Rick S and others mean by "orchestrated jazz". But if I had to think of an example of an orchestrated jazz song by name, I'm so unfamiliar with jazz that I couldn't do so.

That said, I had the pleasure of experiencing a concert of Sun Ra and his orchestra in Newark, New Jersey (either 1967 or 1968). The thing I remember the most about that concert was the theatrics and the loud mishmash of sounds. I knew that it was an Experience with a capital "E", but I can't say that I was/am a   fan of Sun Ra.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 26 May 09 - 07:42 AM

For what it's worth, I tried to use Mudcat's internal search feature to find previous threads about jazz or comments about jazz that were in other threads. Entering the key word "jazz" resulted in no hits, but when I entered the key words "jazz songs", I got several hits. However most of them are for comments that may mention the word "jazz" but aren't
really about that musical genre. For example, here's a comment that I wrote in a thread about Marching Bands-Traditions and Aesthetics

"It seems to me that the predominately Black bands played more music from R&B, hip-hop, pop music. These tunes were usually contemporary {meaning the latest hit song} but they might also be a golden oldie {a popular "old school" song}. The predominately Black band might also play music from Black religious traditions such as a familiar gospel song or a Dixieland jazz song. Perhaps the predominately White bands also chose songs that were from their traditions-it seemed to me that they were usually classical concert type songs or more classical jazz songs

{Note: In the case of the Madison Scouts, a number of viewers of their YouTube videos mentioned that this group used to be known for playing arrangements of Latin or Jazz tunes...Perhaps that is why they were my favorite Drum & Bugle corp groups when I used to watch the televised national marching band competitions in the 1980s}.

-snip-

In contrast, here's a link to one of the few Mudcat threads about jazz that I found [Is there really so few Mudcat threads about jazz? That surprises me.]

thread.cfm?threadid=46005#680933
Kid Ory--The Jass Original

Since its relevant to our larger discussion about race and jazz, I'm going to take the liberty of reposting this comment from one of Mudcat's beloved members who is no longer with us and who I unfortunately never had the pleasure of meeting:

Subject: RE: Kid Ory--The Jass Original
From: Rick Fielding - PM
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:34 AM

Back in pre-history, when I was first starting to listen to "roots" music* I also noticed that several New Orleans jazz musicians in those early pictures looked quite caucasian. being 15 at the time I just figured that in New Orleans the bands must have been integrated by then. Silly me....didn't know anything about Creole backgrounds or the incredible diversity in that part of Louisiana.
One of the great 'reads' of my life was a book called "Really, The Blues", by Mezz Mezzrow. He's become one of my favourite characters. A white jewish kid from the mid-west, he was a hustler, dope dealer, band organizer, and (very shaky) clarinet player. He became totally obsessed with preserving the 'original' jazz sound, and wanted to be black so badly that he gave his race as 'negro' on driver's licenses, union cards, and passports.

He wasn't thought of too highly if you read others' accounts of the era, probably (and this is just my guess) 'cause he was a real 'in your face guy', tolerated because he supplied the grass (he called them "mezz-rolls") and often pissed off 'cause his lack of consistent musical skills got him bounced from a lot of bands....UNTIL......

He moved to Europe.....and The French LOVED him! He hooked up with Sidney Bechet and had quite a successful recording carreer into the forties.

His connection with Ory? (other than the fact that they knew each other well) Ory was a great ensemble player but often on recordings his solos were thought to be pretty unimaginative. Like Mezzrow, the Kid was at his best live, apparently.

I'm paraphrasing from some of the writings of Lil Armstrong, Eddie Condon, and Danny Barker.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: matt milton
Date: 26 May 09 - 07:42 AM

I'll check those out and give them a go then.

I'm always keen to hear recommendations of interesting orchestrated jazz. Top of my list is Ellington, but I'm also a big fan of Count Basie, Charles Mingus' big band, Ralph Burns, Gil Evans, Sun Ra, Oliver Nelson and some of Edmond Hall's stuff.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 May 09 - 05:47 AM

Hi Matt - as I commented earlier up this thread, I think Ellington was too much of a gentleman to criticise another bandleader, though I agree with you that the Duke's jazz was infinitely superior to anything Whiteman produced.

This is not to denigrate the power of Whiteman's music, which we can only hear today through very old and questionable quality recordings. The re-creation of Whiteman's scores by Dick Sudhalter in the early '70s demonstrated the huge warmth and sound of Whiteman's orchestra - and those of the period in general. It was very similar to seeing high quality black & white prints of early Keaton for the first time - staggeringly beautiful photography.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: matt milton
Date: 26 May 09 - 05:14 AM

As far as that kind of prettifying/gentrification of jazz goes in general, well, I don't think you can generalize. 'Charlie Parker With Strings' is an example of how not to do it - it's one of his worst. Then again, 'Sketches of Spain' is terrific. (Reminding me of yet another jazzer with more interesting compositional smarts than Whiteman - Gil Evans)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: matt milton
Date: 26 May 09 - 05:11 AM

"Paul Whiteman was known as the King of Jazz, and no one as yet has come near carrying that title with more certainty and dignity." -- Duke Ellington

I note in that quote that Duke Ellington does not in fact state that Paul Whiteman was the "king of jazz". He makes a rather fussy and over-elaborate statement about how Paul Whiteman "carried that title".

Duke Ellington had classical pretensions - writing self-proclaimed "suites", dressing suave, playing concert halls. His music more than justified them, of course – his music was a hell of a lot more interesting than Paul Whiteman's, to say the least. And those pretensions were arguably sorely needed, being one in the eye for every racist in America who saw black people as less than human.

It's funny, I'd never heard anyone refer to Paul Whiteman as "king of jazz", and even though I'm a huge jazz fan I'm only dimly aware of his music - what I've heard hasn't made me want to hear any more. I think that epithet just goes to show how quickly such hyperbolic pronouncements get dated. The history of jazz criticism has always seen some funny critical calls which with the benefit of hindsight seem totally absurd. (That, say, Thelonious Monk or Albert Ayler "couldn't play", for instance)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 May 09 - 05:01 AM

Ah well - I would have thought that Scott Joplin should have been designated King of Syncopation. :-)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,RickS
Date: 26 May 09 - 04:45 AM

A very interesting thread - a word that doesn't seem to have cropped up is 'synchopation', which characterised so much of the 'hot' dance music of the twenties, & seems to have become conflated with 'jazz' in the minds of many; my favourite 20's orchestras, the Savoy Orpheans/Havana Bands, would often spice up their otherwise-straightforward dance tunes with hot/jazzy instrumentalists (often Americans), creating an exhilarating hybrid.. perhaps Whiteman should have settled for 'King of Synchopation'?..

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 06:23 PM

I have heard it said by an authoritative primary source whose name I am not at liberty to mention that Jazz can't even be said to have begun specifically in New Orleans, but that it emerged simultaneously right across the USA in numerous little pockets.

New Orleans spawned Armstrong and Bechet and they were the biggest influences on the creation of Jazz as we know it. In fact, Louis was invited to New York from Chicago by Fletcher Henderson to teach Jazzers there how to swing.

Thats why New Orleans gets the credit.

I'll have to return to this next week though as I am needed elsewhere right now.

I look forward to saeeing how this thread had developed.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 06:13 PM

Azizi, my last comment was a poor attempt at an extension to the "lighten up" quip.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 06:08 PM

lox, in case your 05:48 PM comment was for me, I appreciate your contribution and the contribution of all others to this discussion.

**

Since I'm here, I'll share a link to a website about the early days of jazz:

http://www.redhotjazz.com/kingofjazz.html

Here's an excerpt from that website:

"The music called Jazz was born sometime around 1895 in New Orleans. It combined elements of Ragtime, marching band music and Blues. What differentiated Jazz from these earlier styles was the widespread use of improvisation, often by more than one player at a time. Jazz represented a break from Western musical traditions, where the composer wrote a piece of music on paper and the musicians then tried their best to play exactly what was in the score. In a Jazz piece, the song is often just a starting point or frame of reference for the musicians to improvise around. The song might have been a popular ditty or blues that they didn't compose, but by the time they were finished with it they had composed a new piece that often bore little resemblance to the original song. Many of these virtuoso musicians were not good sight readers and some could not read music at all, nevertheless their playing thrilled audiences and the spontaneous music they created captured a joy and sense of adventure that was an exciting and radical departure from the music of that time. The first Jazz was played by African-American and Creole musicians in New Orleans. The cornet player, Buddy Bolden is generally considered to be the first real Jazz musician. Other early players included Freddie Keppard, Bunk Johnson and Clarence Williams. Although these musicians names are unknown to most people, then and now, their ideas are still being elaborated on to this day. Most of these men could not make a living with their music and were forced to work menial jobs to get by. The second wave of New Orleans Jazz musicians like Joe "King" Oliver, Kid Ory and Jelly Roll Morton formed small bands that took the music of these older men and increased the complexity and dynamic of their music, as well as gaining greater commercial success. This music became known as "Hot Jazz", because of the often breakneck speeds and amazing improvised polyphony that these bands produced. A young virtuoso cornet player named Louis Armstrong was discovered in New Orleans by King Oliver. Armstrong soon grew to become the greatest Jazz musician of his era and eventually one of the biggest stars in the world. The impact of Armstrong and other Jazz musicians altered the course of both popular and Classical music. African-American musical styles became the dominant force in 20th century music".

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:48 PM

Its seems that you would rather I was seen and not heard ...

... you've obviously heard me play!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:45 PM

Jass - so it wass... :-)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:37 PM

Ownership?? Whose talking about ownership?

And btw, I'm not cross. I like the discussion so far. For instance, my comment "And if you wanted to get technical, many African Americans have had "a Europen father and an African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European mother" but I understand that you meant that jazz is built on the African and European musical traditions" was written somewhat tongue in cheek.

And lox, I believe I have mentioned to you in another thread or in a private message that I write on the public forum for those who may be lurking now and in the future as well as those who are involved in the discussion.

I would say "lighten up" but then you might respond that you were rather hoping for a
sun tan :o)

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:36 PM

Pendant time, Will - Original Dixieland Jass Band, if remember the record label correctly!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:02 PM

Looks like I cross posted your cross (or perhaps not so cross) post.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 05:01 PM

BTW,

I am not suggesting that you think we should give ownership to anyone, thise comments merely reflect my take on the subject.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:58 PM

"And if you wanted to get technical, many African Americans have had "a Europen father and an African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European mother" but I understand that you meant that jazz is built on the African and European musical traditions."

Read again Azizi.

You know I know this, as you have read comments from me explaining the logic to other people. But these are political matters.

In the quote above, you are referring to the political and social relities of being an African American, ie someone who has any degree of African blood in their veins thus rendering them inferior in the eyes of the state at that time and in the eyes of much of society to this day.

I am talking about the Geneology of a musical style.

You may justifiably argue that if all americans with any degree of african heritage should be classified in the same category then the it is double standards to take a different approach to music with a similar ancestry.

However, what is really happening there is recognition of how cruelly unfair it is that Blacks - whatever their ancestry - should suffer discrimination at all.

It does not infer ownership, either moral or actual. It puts in the spotlight just how insane the realities of slavery, segregation and racism were/are.

And if we did decide to give ownership of Jazz to Americaans only if they had a degree of African blood in their veins we would be doing a disservice to all those white musicians who helped make it what it is - and some from other countries too, like Stephan Grapelli and Django Reinhardt.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:37 PM

Azizi,

It looks like you accidentally overlooked my last post, in which I wrote:


>>"Btw, lox, I strongly disagree with your statement that "Jazz does >>not trace back to an african american ancestor.""
>>
>>By this I meant that unlike blues, Jazz has a Europen father and an >>African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European >>mother.


So while blues traces directly back to an African american vocal tradition and while it uses scales with ambiguous notes that come from African musical tradition, the same cannot be said of Jazz.


Jazz has from day one been a multicultural exercise. This is probably why it went on to absorb other cultural influences into its vocabulary later on in the fusion projects of the seventies and eighties, from Indian classical to Flamenco, because it is inclusive by nature, having been born that way and as it has grown up it has naturally wanted to include music that it hasn't met before.

Truly the music of the revolution in my book.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:37 PM

Correction:

My sentence should read .,,"built on African and European musical traditions".

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:33 PM

I can't understand what the problem is. All jazz musicians/historians must surely agree that black Americans first started playing what we know as jazz. The music itself was formed from earlier forms like, among other things, ragtime and blues. Ironically, I believe the first known recording of jazz - 1917 - was by the white Original Dixieland Jazz Band, whose leader, Nick La Rocca, was of Italian origin.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:28 PM

lox, we cross posted and I've read your answer to my question. Your response doesn't address the issue of which race performed jazz first.

And if you wanted to get technical, many African Americans have had "a Europen father and an African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European mother" but I understand that you meant that jazz is built on the African and European musical traditions.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:14 PM

lox, if Anglo-Americans didn't so often have the practice of not crediting African Africans for our cultural offerings, and if Anglo-Americans didn't so often appropriate* African American culture and claim if as their own, I wouldn't be so insistent about asserting race into a discussion about the origin of jazz and who is or is not considered to be the "King of Jazz".

However, given the realities of life then and now, I'm making those points, admittedly, as a person who isn't a jazz musician, jazz vocalist, jazz historian, or a particular follower of contemporary jazz or any other kind of jazz.

*
"Cultural Appropriation"

"Cultural Appropriation - refers to the process by which members of relatively privileged groups "raid" the culture of less powerful or marginalized groups, and removing [sic] cultural practices or artifacts from historically or culturally specific contexts."

— From the Glossary of the Municipal Cultural Planning Project (Canada)

http://www.culturalplanning.ca/mcpp/ib_glossary.html#c

Q. "What is cultural appropriation?

A. The textbook definition of cultural appropriation is the 'taking [a.k.a. appropriating] from a culture that is not one's own of...cultural expressions or artifacts [or] history.' Many people hold that cultural appropriation is wrong because by stealing an element from someone's culture and then representing it in a different (and often shallow) context, you both damage and dishonor the culture you have taken the ritual from."

— Body Modification Ezine FAQs http://www.bmezine.com/ritual/susp-faq.html#Q3-5
   
http://www.quakersweat.org/appropriation.html

-snip-

Also, lox, you didn't answer the question that I posed to you in my 02:14 PM post to this thread. I'll repeat that question in case you accidentally overlooked it:

"Btw, lox, I strongly disagree with your statement that "Jazz does not trace back to an african american ancestor."

I would have agreed with you if you had written that Jazz is a blending of African and European musical traditions that was first performed by African American musicians.

Is this what you meant?

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:09 PM

Azizi, you commented;


"Btw, lox, I strongly disagree with your statement that "Jazz does not trace back to an african american ancestor.""

By this I meant that unlike blues, Jazz has a Europen father and an African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European mother.


You also commented;

"However, I dare say that this same disregard for race was not the norm among most of the jazz musicians' audiences, the nightclub owners, the radio hosts, the movie producers etc."

If you return to the post you were responding to you will note this line.

"The Audiences and the Club owners were of course a different kettle of fish ... "

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:43 PM

"Which leads me to the same conclusion that mainstream American [USA] society would have been {and probably still is to a lesser degree] unwilling to confer the title of King of Jazz on a Black man."

Mainstream America does not listen to Jazz.

Neither is mainstream America qualified to confer such titles.

Mainstream America has nothing to do with it.

Though it should be pointed out that the most loved Jazz musicians by mainstream America are Miles Davis (Kind of Blue) and before him Louis Armstrong.

There is a title of first lady which goes to Ella Fitzgerald.

In a political context, I agree wholeheartedly that Creoles are included in the category of Black/African Americans as they suffered the same indignities and were afforded the same status by their oppressors.

However, we are not talking politics here, we are talking cultural influence and geneological background, and in that respect Creoles were a mixture of cultural ingredients.

Sydney Bechet and Jelly Roll Morton were Creole. Louis Armstrong was African American.

They are very much seen as the founding fathers of Jazz.

The blue note is indeed African of origin, but the Chord theory is European. There are other ingredients too that distinguish Jazz from having an African root in the same way that Blues definitely does.

Jazz without chord theory is like a house without bricks.

The subsequent evolution of Jazz includes, not additional, but essential input from white musicians. There are some Jazz commentators who suggest that white musicians were merely participating in a black artform. This is an utter untruth.

From Biderbeck to Brubeck white Jazzers have played alongside their Black brothers in perfect harmony and advanced the depth of Jazz in an essential way.

Comments regarding race within Jazz are generally made by those outside it.

Miles Davis chose Bill Evans because he was doing something new and "Down" - he didn't care whether he was white Black or blue - though he clearly decided that at the very least he was "kind of blue".

Some of the Black audiences they played for didn't take kindly to this freeloader riding into town on "their" music, but the reality is that Jazz, unlike other artforms, was owned by its performers not by its patrons.

Jazz musicians didn't care about all that, and those from the 30's and 40's who I have met could teach some of our "enlightened" youngsters a thing or two about respect for men and women of other cultures and regardless of their origin or appearance on a deep level of understanding and with a passion of genuine feeling that would be enough to make you feel truly enriched.

They were friends with the artists who were told to leave through the kitchen door and were hurt by the indignities they witnessed and would have undoubtedly been in the ranks that marched aginst the system.

Whiteman did indeed give himself that title and that fact is as important to jazz as he was ... not very... except insofar as he was a good salesman.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:42 PM

I love Pete Kelly's Blues - it's cropped up on British television once or twice.

re Bix - I always liked the story that the second trumpeter (or cornettist?) in Whiteman's orchestra had 'Wake Bix up' written on his score, a few bars before the great man was scheduled to play one of his dazzling solos.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:30 PM

If we are going to mention Jean Goldkette, let's include the California Ramblers too.

Whiteman's orchestra, Goldkette's orchestra and the California Ramblers were all fine dance bands and had many fine musicians who served in more than one group. How much content was really "jazz" is a matter of opinion.

Despite the name, the California Ramblers never made it west to the Golden State.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:18 PM

Whiteman was a generous man, as you say. He treated Bix as well as any man could, given the circumstances - and many another bandleader wouldn't have done that.

Incidentally, does anyone remember that great film "Pete Kelly's Blues", directed and starring Jack Webb of TV series "Dragnet" fame? It had Peggy Lee and Ella Fitzgrald in it, among others. Gave an excellent portrayal of the sorts of band that Bix and others played in. The opening sequence of a New Orleans funeral, with the trumpet falling off the coffin, is matched by the end sequence in the empty ballroom, with a standoff between Webb and Ed O. Brien. Wish I had it on DVD...

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:12 PM

King of jazz? A more apt sobriquet might have been "King of Dance" or "King of Show", a fact incontestably proven by a glance at any of his classy film appearances, including "King of Jazz" and many others.
Personally, I do prefer Jean Goldkette and his Orchestra. Same time, same place, same kind of music.
Concerning Paul Whiteman, it should be mentioned, that he was a very social character. Read about what he had done for poor Bismark "Bix" Beiderbecke when he was unable to play his cornet in Whiteman's orchestra because of abuse of alcohol.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:00 PM

"Which leads me to the same conclusion that mainstream American [USA] society would have been {and probably still is to a lesser degree] unwilling to confer the title of King of Jazz on a Black man."

            I'm quite certain that wouldn't be true of knowledgeable Americans. Anyone who looked into the origins of jazz, I would think, would concede that the King of Jazz would have to be someone with African roots.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:50 PM

Paul Whiteman also commissioned and introduced "Rhapsody in Blue" by G. Gershwin. His rendition was a lot jazzier than later versions of the piece, many of which tend to be more serious. If I repeated any previous information, I apologize.

               ============================

Azizi - It serendipitous that you posted, today, from the book of Negro folk lore. In going through my sons's belongings to sell at our quintenniel (is that every fifth year?) garage sale, I came across that very title. I set it aside for my vacation reading; it is then going into my own folk library.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:35 PM

Benny Goodman was also Jewish and there does seem to be some sort of affinity between Jews and African-Americans where music was concerned. Anti Semitism was, of course, common between the wars so that probably helps explain it.