BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:23 PM

People will kill in the name of anything...whether or not they are religious. They will commit all manner of crimes and immorality...whether or not they are religious. They will also do all manner of kindness and wonderful and beautiful things...whether or not they are religious.

Therefore judge them only on the basis of what they actually do...whether or not they are religious. If you can manage that, you can truly be said to be free of prejudice, and you will also make a useful contribution to human happiness...both yours and others' happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:00 AM

M.Ted

I think you're missing my point.

I describe what is based on what can be seen. Theory follows facts.

"Architect of the Universe" is a religious contruct. The evidence for this "Planner of the Fimament and all below" is based on deduction from the evidence. Theory follows analysis of the facts.

A subtle difference and delineated by the "B" word.

Belief.

Killing is inevitable however immoral. Greed is inevitable. And made worse by population - currently human being the worst example.

And killing in the name of religion is not unheard of even today. Greed is not the preserve of the ungodly.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 11:44 PM

"all the good things can be done without it"

Not necessarily. As is made quite clear in "Pillars of the Earth", the Christian church often served as a very progressive social force in medieval Europe, given that they were a far more peaceful alternative to a bunch of murdering robber barons and their soldiery whose basic instinct was to live by plunder, rape, and indiscriminate brutality. The churce helped poor people, it assisted the homeless, it provided medical assistance to the sick, it discouraged the barons from committing the worst abuses by shaming them into moderating their bad behaviour, and it provided a refuge for desperate individuals in time of war. It also provided education at a number of useful levels and promoted literacy. It was an important civilizing influence in the early medieval period....when under good leadership (which was sometimes the case). It was a baleful influence when under vicious or corrupt leadership...but so is any other sytem under those conditions.

To ignore all that and focus only on "the bad things" done by religion is to be blind to at least half the picture.

The sequel to "The Pillars of the Earth" is "World Without End", also a very good book, set in the same town a few centuries later, during the Hundred Years War between England and France.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM

I often use "holy shit" when I am clumsy and stub a toe or something or am surprised
to the state of shock.

That brings a whole new meaning to starting a religious movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:41 PM

But once again, it was only the bad side that required religion - all the good things can be done without it.

I *love* the Pillars of the Earth. And its sequel, whose name escapes me.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:23 PM

Well, I've seen and given consideration to both the good and the bad side of religion, Paul. I'm keenly aware of its historical abuses...and I belong to no religion. I'm also keenly aware of the very positive and progressive things that have been done by many religious people throughout history.

Accordingly, I don't judge either religion or religious people as intrinsically good or bad on the baisis of their beliefs. ONLY on the basis of how they APPLY their beliefs, and for what purpose. They are all things...from the very worst to the very best.

I've got a suggestion for a superb novel you could read by Ken Follet. It's called "The Pillars of the Earth". It's set in a town in England in the 11 or 12th century, and it follows the lives of a number of individuals...some of them are in the church, some are not...some are deeply religious, some are not...some of the best and worst among those people can be found in EITHER camp. The point is, you shouldn't prejudge people on the basis of whether or not they are religious or not...you have to wait and see how they actually USE the beliefs they have...for good or for evil.

It's a terrific story. Read it if you get the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:15 PM

LH, you use words in a technically idiosyncratic way. Religion/ power? You want to use the word "religion" in a way that absolves it of its past. You can't just shuck off 4000 years of oppression like that. The earliest religions we have evidence of were all about power- it's quite probable it was the tool used to steal the hard work of ordinary folk that made cities possible. Cruelty is at its historical roots- look at the Abraham/Isaac story: possibly an echo of someone refusing to xdo what religion required of him- sacrifice of the first-born son, at least for nobles, continued in Phoenician and later Carthaginian society until it was destroyed by the Romans (who used different human sacrifices).

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:03 PM

Well....there are also "extremely", "majorly" (more Valley Girl lingo)...and...hmmmm...

Paul - I think the Arab-Israeli conflict, indeed the whole modern cause of Zionism...is essentially a political issue that has been masquerading as a religious issue. Politics quickly embraces and coopts all other issues, as political zealots will happily use ANY issue they can find which will motivate people to join the cause.

And what is politics really about? Power. And who has the most power? He who controls the main sources of money and trade in the theatre of action. And how are those sources of money and trade gained? Through military supremacy. And how is military supremacy gained? Through better sources of funding, superior weaponry, and better trained soldiers. And if the politicians can tie people's religious ideas to the political causes they are pushing, so much the better...it will make people much easier to manipulate and control.

Religion wasn't the cause of any of that...but it makes for a great motivator once the political course of action has been decided upon by the politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 05:18 PM

I decided a long time ago to stop perpetuating the myth. Nonetheless, it left me with words like "very" and not much else. Shit, fuck, and very. Extremely constraining, but worth the effort, I find.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:33 PM

I looked her up. Ruth Ellis finished her sentence by hanging.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:24 PM

He claims that Dawkins is wrong is saying that the Israel/Palestine conflict could be attributed to religion.

He'll have a job explaining why the Zionists chose to settle Palestine, rather trhan, say, Manitoba. Even allowing that it was Victorian romanticism, rather than echt religion, that drove the Zionist cause, the romance would be empty without the religion to legitimise it.

That's not taking away anything from the more immediate cause, the scramble for oil in the 1930s, and the Mesopotamia pipeline.

The most agonizing sense of hanging time that I can remember in recent memory is waiting for Diane Rehm to finish a sentence.

I'm too young to remember waiting for Ruth Ellis to finish her sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:08 PM

Robert Wright has written a book called the Evolution of God. He is an ex-Baptist but
in my view carries with him many of the authoritarian traits of the major Abrahamic
religions. His view of conscience is that of being judged and acting out that.

He claims that Dawkins is wrong is saying that the Israel/Palestine conflict could be
attributed to religion. He says it's economic or cultural or land issues. I call this
a form of denial. He was on Bill Moyers program recently.

I think his view is close to a Deist position. Apparently his book has made the best
seller list of the Times.

His arguments invite rebuttal. It will be interesting to see how this shapes up.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 04:01 PM

200! Are we there yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 03:59 PM

You really are longing for an extended bitch-slapping session with mois aren't you, Amos?

Should I come down for a visit to San Diego soon? We could sip mint juleps on the deck together, sit in the sun, and deliver subtle and witty verbal attacks on one another for hours and hours until someone's metaphorical dick finally withers up and falls off.... ;-)

Then the "loser" (ha ha) could buy the "winner" (ha ha) a copy of "The Solipsist's Guide to the Galaxy".

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 02:32 PM

I think we should take up a collection in gratitude to LH for being always at hand and ready to inform us of what we should realize, and how to go about it. Such dedication to conformance amongst independent thinkers should be rewarded, indeed. Perhaps we should collect our wastes for a day or two and send them to him for his rich compost heap.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 02:02 PM

Exactly, Amos. ;-) OMFG! OMC! JF! Did you see that?????

The best way to de-sensitize and cure atheist hypersensitivity to the use of the word "God" in conversational 21st century English is to hang around some teenage girls who've never had a religious thought in their entire lives, and listen to them say "OMIGOD!!!" about 35 times a minute as they chitchat about the latest gossip and stuff that's got them going.

Soon you will realize that it's just another meaningless word in common usage and not worth reacting to or getting het up about at all.

Or your head will explode.

Whichever happens first.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 11:28 AM

OMG!!! OMFG!!! Did U C wt Little Hawk SAID??? OMFG!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 11:21 AM

I sort of agree that expletives using holy words are cultural. I remember a prominent musician from Quebec telling me that when they get mad they say "piss in the chalice".
In Quebecois though.

I often use "holy shit" when I am clumsy and stub a toe or something or am surprised
to the state of shock.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM

I doubt if the legendary Irish football commentator was invoking a deity when he uttered the immortal line "Holy bejasus fuck, he's scored!" on air. As for invoking "prominent religious figures", I've never heard anyone say "Dalai Lama!", or "Mahatma Gandhi!" when they've stubbed their toe- but it would be fun. "Mohammered!" when you've hit your thumb instead of the nail, "Canterbury!" has a good ring to it, "Holy Ghost!" and "Allah!" are sadly underused, but I suppose "Jonathan Sacks!" would only be appropriate when you've caught your foreskin in the zip.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 09 - 01:15 AM

Mrzzy - "Ooh, I've been trying for many, many years now to omit the terms god, damn, heaven and hell and it's a bitch, let me tell you."

And it's really, really silly of you to even be concerned about it at all. These are common cultural expressions that have arisen out of thousands of years of past human civilization, they are NOT statements of religious doctrine. They are generic emotional statements that serve to convey emphasis and nothing more.

When I say:

"Goddammit!" when hitting my thumb with a hammer...I am NOT referring to a deity. I am registering a strong emotion.

When I say:

"God help them..." I am expressing a hope that things will work out well for them, I'm not referring to a deity.

When I say:

"God, it would be wonderful"...I am merely emphasing more strongly how wonderful it would be, I'm NOT referring to a deity.

When people gasp "Oh, God!" during sex...they are NOT referring to a deity, they are conveying emphasis in the moment.

And so on, and so on, ad infinitum.

The fact that you, Mrzzy, choose to make a specifically religious-anti-religious-based issue out of these common uses of the word "God" (and various other common words) in contexts that usually have little or nothing to do with anyone's religious faith indicates only one problem: YOUR mental problem. You are obsessed. You're obsessed with something that does not even have the meaning you ascribe to it, and presents no threat to anyone. You're like Don Quixote, only there isn't even a friggin' windmill there!

It's ludicrous for you to waste your time and energy over something like this. It's as silly and pointless as if you had decided that all Scottish cultural things were somehow a threat to humanity, and you went around complaining about kilts, sporans, claymores, Scottish names and words, and everything else that ever came from Scotland. It's that ridiculous.

It's the kind of attitude that truly merits the not very kind comment "get a life".

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 06:37 PM

They're just words, Mrrzy.. and by Satan's underpants, we have a right to use them without guilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 05:33 PM

Ooh, I've been trying for many, many years now to omit the terms god, damn, heaven and hell and it's a bitch, let me tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:46 PM

I trust it was meant ironically, LH, but who can honestly say that on certain occasions they haven't blurted out the name of some prominent religious figure or other?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 04:11 PM

"God," it would be funny? Now, that's funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM

Why do we need initiatives to be "faith-based"? Why can't they be
done because it's the right thing for society to do?

They say they are doing God's work. I agree with you though, and I think 'good deeds' have an infinitely greater social value if done for their own sake rather than with the seemingly unnecessary excuse of religion. Although a lot of good is done at ground level by religions, and not always conditionally, the people doing it are generally under the illusion that it's their faith that makes it happen. Why anyone would need such an excuse just to be a good person, I've no idea.. Not low self-esteem, that's for sure. It's not even a good excuse - Hitler said on several occasions that he was doing God's work. It was the same illusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM

Getting back to the original thread, any deprecating remark about non-believers has to be answered forcefully in a lucid rebuttal. So many times non-believers are called upon to be polite or quiet when religious groups force their rituals on us.

I think Obama needs to hear this and not make us invisible.

"Faith-based" initiatives claim to help the poor or the hungry but their employment is
always conditional. Why do we need initiatives to be "faith-based"? Why can't they be
done because it's the right thing for society to do?

Any joke about bullets is not funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Jul 09 - 12:16 PM

M Ted, this is why religion acts as a kind of narcotic. It doesn't bring their jobs back,
make the economy better or put people in political positions who make constructive choices.
It's a sleeping pill.

LH, it would be wonderful. Every person could think for themselves and believe what they wanted without getting in anyone else's way.

People who are religionists could keep their beliefs to themselves and not proselytize.
They could leave us non-believers alone and not try to convince us that they are right.

In the meantime, as long as this doesn't happen, non-believers need to speak out and
say, hey, we're not invisible and reflect a percentage of people who agree with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 09:12 PM

'S okay, I just forgot it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 09:11 PM

Uh... I just remembered onanism..

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM

Yes, let's see an end to "isms", shall we?

Think of it...(sigh)...

No Republicanism, no libertarianism, no conservatism, no liberalism, no Zionism OR anti-semitism, no racism, no sexism, no communism, no fascism, and no bollocksism!!!!

God, it would be wonderful. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:12 PM

I like the term anti-ismist!

Why, thanks Mrrzy, though to be a true anti-ismist, one also has to be open to the idea of anti-anti-ismism, otherwise pointless arguments can ensue..

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:11 PM

I said this, JohnP--"In a "secular", more complex society, other associations replace the religious ones--country clubs, unions, folk clubs, or whatever--"meaning that when the opportunity arises, a lot of people fullfill their need for support and community in organizations that are build around something other than religion--

that was leading into another, very important point:

"the thing is that in when a society is in transition, when people are disenfranchised, when jobs are lost, and when other associations fall apart, people move back to the religious groups."

Which means that when all the other doors are closed on them, the religious ones are still open to them--furthermore, they take their disappointment, pain, feelings of rejection, and most important, their anger at the rest of the world with them. That's the beginning of militant fundamentalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:01 PM

I like the term anti-ismist!

Not a blog, aha...

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 04:59 PM

Thank you, Paul Burke.

You really can't put a person down on the basis of their belief unless it gets in your or society's face. Well, unless they mention it, you wouldn't know what it was, but if they mention something completely idiotic in a perfectly polite tone, it's still idiotic.

Will go read the blog now.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 01:03 PM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_I8Cg2cYthpM/Sk49hwK9JRI/AAAAAAAAAlI/0d84OsniIZM/s1600-h/JesusHeReallyJustDontCare.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:45 AM

Any cultural cluster such as a church, a Boy Scout Tropp, a ROtary Club, a garden club or a police division has inherent in it the risk of toxic memes. Forming a group multiplies the risk factor because the vectors of transmission are reinforced, and also because the individual immunity is compromised by the mechanism of distributed responsibility. Sitting in the heart of a "We are" clump it is much easier to accept ideas because someone among the "others" has vetted them. The inclination to elect authorities, and then to follow them, illustrates this weakness. The responsibility of "I am" to choose rightly in the marketplace of ideas gets watered down by the happy anodyne of agreement and the displacement of ownership.

This is why organized religion, essentially, is an oxymoron, a self-contradiction in premises. Nothing taps deeper into the boundless well of individual being andindividual responsibility than a brush with the Infinite, but writing it down and forming a group around it is almost self-defeating.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: John P
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 11:22 AM

To me, the biggest difference between a church and any other social organization is that the church is founded on and centered around a belief in gods. I don't have any problem with that, until people start saying that non-religious social organizations are the same as churches, in that they fulfill the same role in society. Of course churches fill their members' need for community -- any group does. But that's not the reason for the existence of churches; you don't need any special set of beliefs to belong to a country club or a non-religious service organization.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 10:29 AM

M Ted, Groucho said "I wouldn't join any club that has me as a member."

The problem is that religious clubs tend to be more aggressive and some violent about
wanting to "share" their values with others. I don't see the country clubs or unions going to war with others over their beliefs. Maybe folk clubs though.   :)

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 07:23 AM

Religion is often the basis for cultural identity, that is to say, the church is the center of a community.

The church, mosque, or synagogue is a substitute for the "tribe" that someone belongs to(though not the only one). It is often the center for social and business relationships, and the vehicle for mutual support in times of trouble.

In the larger community, the church that one belongs to often relates to your position in that community--workers belong to one church, tradesman to another, businessmen and wealthy property holders belong to yet another--

In a "secular", more complex society, other associations replace the religious ones--country clubs, unions, folk clubs, or whatever--the thing is that in when a society is in transition, when people are disenfranchised, when jobs are lost, and when other associations fall apart, people move back to the religious groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:25 AM

The only people who can't use logic to resolve the question of the existence of gods are people who believe in gods.

The agnostic viewpoint is perfectly respectable and quite as logical.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:21 AM

But can we get back to the start of the thread: irrespective of what the boy believes or doesn', can't the goddists find it in themselves to praise his courage? If the original joke had been about a n****r, a Jew and only one bullet, and the boy had identified himself as a Jew?

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:16 AM

The reason I don't believe in GOD is that I don't know what GOD is. It's much like folk music: what's folk music? We can't decide on that, but now we are trying to decide on the 'maker of all things', etc. Right. I have some property for sale.

Is this GOD people do or don't believe in a benevolent GOD? A good GOD? An evil GOD?

YMMV, but until that's dealt with--the implied question in the above questions--then even atheists don't have too much to talk about in regard to GOD--or lack thereof. IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 02:08 AM

That's the point about religion, or, for that matter, absence of it: it seems to make not the slightest difference to behaviour. I know Catholics who are socially very progressive, and others who are racist reactionaries. American Protestants show the same diversity, as do Muslims. And the only thing I share with the odious Hitchins is that neither of us thinks there's any such personality, power, intelligence or entity as anything that could be meaningfully described as a god.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 11:01 PM

I haven't observed that the recent crop of atheists is particularly right-wing. I think the only thing new about their brand is they get to invoke more recent science in their rebuttals.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 09:47 PM

I think you can recognize the concept of a god without believing in it. Atheist is a label but I still maintain it just means non-belief in a supreme being. You can recognize mythology and know that it's just that, nothing real. I think you can have some fruitful discussions about mythology. Theism is a form of mythology in my opinion.

I have to say that Hitchens really bugs me because he's spoiling for a fight all the time.
Dawkins is accepting of people who have religion but he's a "get along without going along" type of person. He wants to know what you think and why.

I'm not sure where Harris is. He has stated in his book the "time-bomb" theory of
excusable torture. I can't buy into that.

Dennet is very erudite and I found his book hard sledding. It seemed like he ran off
into a lot of different directions because of his breadth of knowledge.

Robert Wright has written a piece for the blogs with which I don't agree. He says that
many of the wars today are due to economic and ethnic divisions and not part of religion.
He cites the Israel/Palestine situation. I think he denies the religious implications.
I go with Dawkins on this in that religion is a big part of the problem.

Wright's contention is that the so-called "new atheism" is right-wing. That might be true of Hitchens and sometimes Harris but not the others.

Again, the "new atheism" thing is a red-herring. Atheism hasn't changed. And there
are all kinds of atheists, not a rubber stamp.

Anti-theism is on the rise. It tends to be reactive rather than proactive.

You really can't put a person down on the basis of their belief unless it gets in your
or society's face.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 07:24 PM

"Every time I touch one, it heals up"

         .....trad.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 06:49 PM

"Then one old greybeard of a god said,"I am the one true god"...and all of the other gods died laughing."

            ....Nietzsche

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 06:01 PM

One of many.. polytheism rools ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Paul Burke
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 05:44 PM

There is such a god, and he's called Ch3ch2oh.

Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 05:40 PM

Camels have more knees and put their feet down in a different order to horses.
It depends which desert.
If there's a god, why did he make me spout such pedantic shite?