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BS: Atheism hits the mainstream!
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 09 - 12:46 PM John - I realize that some people may find it confusing if I call life "God"....but I don't care. ;-) They're welcome to their own concept, and I'm welcome to mine. Besides, people get confused a great deal of the time anyway, regardless of what I say or don't say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: DMcG Date: 14 Jul 09 - 12:08 PM As a practising Christian, I agree with John P. Ron, if when you say atheists don't admit 'their belief is based on faith' I feel you are confusing several different meanings of "faith". For example, if what you mean is 'their belief is based on axioms that cannot be proved', then so is mathematics, for example. Most people believe that if they hold an object at arms lengths and let go it will fall, but that is not usually regarded as 'a faith'. In fact, you make the statement empty of meaning because it encompasses everything. But while a logical system based on a small number of axioms could be a faith (eg Axiom 1: The Bible is always literally true), the vast majority of such systems lie outside any conventional meaning of 'faith'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 11:54 AM The difference being, as I've mentioned on other threads. that religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this. What a lazy statement! And so blatantly incorrect! Ron, can we assume you've talked to all the atheists in the world? How did you miss me? Please show a bit more intellectual honesty in what you say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 14 Jul 09 - 10:52 AM From a cursory review it appears Flew was not paying attention when he read The Blind Watchmaker, if he did read it. It addresses the ontological argument neatly. But in spite of that I am sympathetic to Flew's version of Deism, except that it on the whole is a camp so muddled with various intellectual and spiritual leavings as might make some mucky military midden out of a meadow. It is always curious to me that people who discover, one way or another, that there may be a spiritual dimension to their existence, proceed almost maniacally to form it in their minds as a noun, a single conceptual object. I think it is much more fair to say their is godding among the affairs of humans than to say there is an entity walking around backstage by the name of God. There are perhaps 6.771 billion people on Earth at this hour, and given how many viewpoints each of these people has there may be a trillion informed points of view making up the composite cognosphere of life in this cold corner of the galaxy. And anyone or all of those viewpoints may be godding away at any moment. This automatic, cliched obsession with a unary entity makes less sense to my mind than Bush's compulsion for a unary Executive, and it may have similar flaws behind it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mr Red Date: 14 Jul 09 - 10:49 AM Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this atheism is a refusal to believe. PAL! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 14 Jul 09 - 10:01 AM Dr.Anthony Flew was one of the world's leading philosophical atheists, but not anymore--he has come to believe that as science reveals more and more about the universe, and particularly biochemistry, it seems like there is no other way to explain the how the mechanisms that we are seeing other than that they were created. Here is an interview where he explains his reasoning, and clarifies some of the points that we all seem to have trouble getting our hands around-- Leading Atheist explains why he is now a Theist |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:20 AM One of the problems is the use of the word "belief". Sometimes this accompanies a lack of evidence which undermines its credibility. As I have stated before, there are no unilateral atheists. There are many kinds. They have one thing in common, they don't "believe" in a supernatural supreme being. To posit the existence of a god, you have to believe that it's there. I think there are degrees of disbelief. There is always the possibility that someone could scientifically prove that there is a supernatural supreme being but that hasn't happened. Someone might disprove the notion of gravity or other science such as relativity which quantum mechanics has brought into question. Atheism doesn't always mean being adamant about something. Anti-theism has more to do with the criticism of the practice of religion and its effect on society. The only time I see this conversation coming into focus is when you hear of egregious violations of civil rights or secular rights. An example would be the latest outbreak of political Elmer Ganrtries and Tartuffes being supported by the C Street group lead by Douglas Coe called the "Family" in Washington. Now we're talking anti-theism as it applies to the negation of the Separation of Church and State. Each atheist defines his/her position a little differently. The question I have is what is there to discuss if there isn't a god? Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Wesley S Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:16 AM Little Hawk - When you say "a plurality of Germans to be successful, and most of those people were Christians, and the majority of them were Catholics." I'd still like to see some sort of reference to back up these claims other than - "Becasue I say so". I'm not saying that you and Mrrzy are wrong. But I would like to see SOME sort of facts to back up your claims. I asked a good friend of mine about this. He's a professor of political science and history at a local university. His response was: "That is something I've actually never heard anything about at all. I'm sure someone has knowledge on the topic, but I don't. As for the distinction between Catholics and Protestants, I'm not even really sure how that categorization would make any real difference. So far as I know, neither religion is less tolerant of Judaism than the other. I've never known either to have a doctrine that would allow hatred or genocide--But that is just an impression--" And that's the point I'm trying to make. That you and Mrrzy are expressing impressions. Not facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:06 AM "I wish I could tell you how very sick I am of hearing this load of crap." I wish you could too. ;-) Be careful, Little Hawk. You might get me started. I know a lot of words . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 09:04 AM If you don't believe there is no God, then how do you figure that you're an atheist? Actually I do believe there is no God. That's "believe" with a small b, the kind of belief that comes from making the best judgment I can with the available evidence. Since there is no evidence to suggest there is a god, there is every reason to believe God doesn't exist. But since that can't be proved, saying I don't Believe (capital B) would be foolish. Going back to the "atheists are just like religious fundamentalists" crap, does anyone see how that statement is quite like the joke that started this thread? A huge difference in degree, certainly, but not a difference in type. It's making a group of people sound like idiots so they can be dismissed. Making them be not us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:54 AM Do you believe in life? That's my idea of God. Life itself. Yeah, me too. I just don't see any reason to call it God. It confuses people so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: goatfell Date: 14 Jul 09 - 04:47 AM I was brought up by a athist father and church going mother. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jul 09 - 02:32 AM Do you believe in life? That's my idea of God. Life itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Peace Date: 14 Jul 09 - 01:28 AM I wish I could believe in God. But I can't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jeri Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:44 PM Technically, the word atheist means without god/s. It could mean a person doesn't believe they exist or they just don't claim a god/God as their own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:32 PM "If you don't believe there is no God, then how do you figure that you're an atheist?" The very word a-theist doesn't necessarily imply UNbelief (though it is often used that way). It can simply mean...and should... NOT theist. Yes, I know that 'agnostic' is the other term for 'one who is not sure', but there are differences between 'un-belief', 'trying to believe', and just 'curious, but not impressed with the evidence'. All these are different attitudes that almost need separate words because people have a sliding scale of |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jeri Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:26 PM I don't believe you can fly either. Do you think THAT's faith?! Saying what you do NOT believe in isn't faith, it's a lack of faith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:21 PM "I wish I could tell you how very sick I am of hearing this load of crap." I wish you could too. ;-) Ah well, you can't always get what you want, as the Rolling Stones once said, and some things are just inexpressible, aren't they? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: M.Ted Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:12 PM If you don't believe there is no God, then how do you figure that you're an atheist? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: John P Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:22 PM The poster who mentioned that atheists and religious fundamentalists are alike, in that both are certain of their beliefs, has the right of it I wish I could tell you how very sick I am of hearing this load of crap. To me, atheism clearly implies a lack of belief, and any theistic religion implies having belief. Saying that a disbelief in God is a form of belief is really, really stupid, and twisting the words around to mean something that they don't. I know that, as in any group of people, some atheists are self-righteous jerks. So what? Of course it is impossible to disprove the existence of God. The atheists, however, have more going for them since there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God. Why should anyone try to disprove something for which there is no evidence in the first place? If there was a God hanging around the universe, at least of the Christian variety, wouldn't there be some evidence of it somewhere? I - and all the other atheists I know - are atheists because we've never been presented with a reason to believe in a god. NOT because we, in some way, fervently believe there is no god. There is a huge difference between those two positions, and pretending there isn't is dismissive, rude, lazy, illogical, and inaccurate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:50 PM I think I'm an anti-ismist. Atheism, however, requires no more faith than does not believing in giant two headed goat-people (with fins). It is logically sound, which is more than can be said for any religion I've come across. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 06:10 PM I definitely am, thanks. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Georgiansilver Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:17 PM We all have choices... I'm happy and proud to be a child of God.... I hope you are happy being whatever you are...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jul 09 - 05:12 PM Hatred of Jews was very widespread in Europe during the 30s and 40s, and it was based on hatred of Jews that went way, way back in European civilization, right to the beginning of the Christian era, if not before. Nazis didn't hate Jews because they were Catholics (and a great many of them were), they hated Jews partly because of Nazi propaganda and partly because they had probably already hated Jews anyway even prior to hearing Nazi propaganda, but their hatred was exploited and augmented by Nazi propagandists. Naziism was a political party and a political movement. It was based on extreme nationalism, bizarre racial theories about an "Aryan" race, revenge for Germany's defeat and humiliation in WWI, and hatred of Jews and Communists...the people Hitler mainly blamed for the collapse of German power and the loss of the Great War in 1918. Since it was a political movement, it had to win over a majority or at least a plurality of Germans to be successful, and most of those people were Christians, and the majority of them were Catholics. Therefore Naziism had to appeal to that constituency by allying itself with the Catholic and the Christian faith, and it did so, quite overtly. It also, curiously, revived mystical ties to pre-Christian religion in the German culture...the great myths of the Germanic peoples from the pagan times. Naziism was quite happy to coopt any religion that would strengthen its base of popularity. They also, for example, made much propaganda around Joan of Arc, a Catholic saint, exhorting the French people in occupied France to emulate Joan and resist the English and enlist in the German forces. A minority of Frenchmen who were impressed by that propaganda did enlist in the regular German army and the SS and helped Germany fight the Allies. The Nazis got a lot of mileage out of scaring religious Christian people with stories about the Godless Communists and the "evil" Jews who had "murdered Christ". Hitler referred to Jesus favorably in Mein Kampf, implying that he (Hitler) was carrying out what Jesus would have wanted, and he said that Jesus did not bring a message of peace because "Jesus was a fighter". He obviously interpreted the Bible solely to suit his own political agenda...just as so many other aggressors and oppressors have done. Anyone can use the Bible to justify anything. Hitler used the religious faith of Germans to justify a holy war against Jews and Communists. Does any of this sound familiar to those who have observed the rise of the extreme Religous Right in the USA? I'll tell you who was an atheist. Stalin was an atheist. And so was his entire political philosophy. Some other famous atheist leaders of recent history include Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot and the leaders of North Korea. Nice bunch of boys, eh? Evil can work equally well under the auspices of a religion...or in violent reaction against religion. In either case, fanaticism and ruthlessness are what produce the evil...not religion or the lack of religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Wesley S Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:56 PM "And we've already been through the fact that most Germans, and thus most Nazis, were Catholic. That's why they hated the Jews." And my contention is that they hated jews because they were Nazi's - not because they were Catholic. You are assuming that most Catholics hate Jews. Is there any evidence to prove your point? Any proof that most Nazi's were Catholic? If so I've missed it and would like to see your information. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:52 PM The connection was that the French Jacobin club used a Jacobin monastery as their headquarters, according to one source. ANd on closer examination it looks like I misused the -ite suffix, which belongs to the early-era defenders of Stuarts and James in particular (Jacobites) who were separate and different from Jacobins who led the Revolution in France, named after the Dominican sect whose monastary they borrowed as headquarters originally. My error. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:47 PM They weren't Scots Jacobites of Prince Charlie, but the French Jacobite Club, supporters of Robespierre, and one of the main forces in the bloody uprisings against the aristocracy in the early phase of the Revolution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Paul Burke Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:42 PM Paine released from imprisonment by the Jacobites I don't think Bonnie Prince Chairlie's supporters bothered Thomas Paine much. Nor probably did the Jacobeans, and I think he would have enjoyed Jacobians had he known about them. The Jacobins, on the other hand, were potentially a severe (if brief) pain in the neck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 13 Jul 09 - 03:18 PM I don't see any difference between a new and old Atheist. The only possible difference is the rise of the Anti-theist which takes an aggressive stance toward ending religion. I agree that there is no accommodation that can take place. At this point, I'm not willing to become overtly aggressive in challenging religious people. I really believe that everyone is entitled to their point-of-view whether I agree with it or not provided it doesn't hurt others. I think this point-of-view is an American heritable trait. There does come a time when the imposition of religion on others does become hurtful. Then I see a need for Anti-theism at least as far as that becomes a protest against institutional practices such as child molestation or hypocritical prejudice such as in the so-called DOMA and the abuse of women. I have a problem with evangelizing (forcing religion on another). I see Stalinist Communism as a form of religion. This gives rise to the notion of Fundamentalist Atheism which I believe to be incorrect. Stalin was very much the Jim Jones of the Soviets. I see many political cults being organized today along these same lines. Eric Hoffer wrote an interesting view called "The True Believer". Some of his observations hold true today. I make a distinction between "faith" and "hope". "Faith" is mired in doctrine or rigid adherence. "Hope" is futuristic but not bound by dogma. Obama seems to be confusing the two these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 13 Jul 09 - 02:09 PM That's because not believing in gods doesn't require faith in anything, just conclusion. On the other hand, belief in the supernatural does require faith. As the originator of the thread, it isn't that I want you to like the joke, but rather to like the fact that the teller got their eyes opened to what should be a normal variant, unlike Nazism. And we've already been through the fact that most Germans, and thus most Nazis, were Catholic. That's why they hated the Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 01:01 PM The belief that there is no evidence to hand on which to base a postulate, and therefore no reason to adopt that postulate, is not a statement of faith. It is a statement of the principle of elegance in thinking, which teaches that the simpler explanation which covers the data is preferable to one which is more complex. Declining to erect a belief is very different from insisting that a belief is not true. Unfortunately, the word "atheism" covers both cases without differentiation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jul 09 - 11:32 AM You make a bunch of excellent points there, Ron. Specially the part about "religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this." LOL! Right on. Although...I think the problem is more that they are not aware enough of their own faith to admit to it. They don't realize how big a part faith plays in their taken-for-granted ideas and beliefs. Scientific observation cannot in any way prove or disprove the existence of spiritual matters or spiritual phenomena which are, by definition, not existing within the realm or parameters of this physical world anyway...because the scientific obeserver and his instruments are limited to operatin within this physical space-time continuum. One thing you said that I think is incorrect, though. You said that "the fact is that convinced Nazis were atheists". I don't believe that is so. Some convinced Nazis probably were atheists (as some individuals in almost any political movement may be atheists), but many other convinced Nazis were not, and they believed that God was on their side in WWII and that they had a spiritual mission which was in accord with God's will. I think Hitler believed that, going by what I've read. The Nazi high command send priests to bless German fighting units and preach to the soldiers. They exhorted them to fight against "Godless Communism" just the way the religious Right in America has always done. Every German soldier in the Wehrmacht had a legend inscribed on his belt buckle that said "God is with us" in German. That does not sound to me like a political movement that was atheist in nature. Many people like to call the Nazis "atheistic" now or assume that they were, because it's one more way for those people to make the Nazis fit the evil image they have of them....but I see no evidence that the Nazis were an atheistic movement. Quite the contrary. They were a movement which claimed to be doing God's will and which took much authority from launching a crusade to destroy "godless Communism", and to wipe out the Jews (who were seen as the murderers of Christ). The Nazis were actually a Messianic movement...their prophet (but not their "God") being Adolf Hitler...and their intention being to establish some sort of Messianic world order that would be a renewal of the Holy Roman Empire, under German leadership, of course. Hitler wasn't "God" to them...he was Mohammed to them. There's a difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mr Red Date: 13 Jul 09 - 09:42 AM So Paine was a pain, and Washington washed his hands .............. Reality imitates art. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 13 Jul 09 - 08:37 AM Ron: Paine's bitterness toward Washington was centered on the fact that W., in consideration of French<>English politics at the time, refrained from interceding to have Paine released from imprisonment by the Jacobites. As mentioned earlier in the thread, this put Paine at close risk of execution. Considering the support Washington's own war had received from Paine, it was ingratitude at best. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:34 AM Obviously it should be "split hairs". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Gervase Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM that religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this. Eh? My atheism is based purely on my own observations. No faith involved, merely the observation that there apears to be absolutely no need for a 'creator' and certainly no evidence of one. For me the notion of 'god' seems utterly illogical - particularly the sort of god suggested by the Christian faith - and it it would seem to be self-evident that all notions of 'god' are man-made. I have to say that the statistics for religious belief in the USA do astonish me, particularly those to do with the literal interpretation of the Bible, creationism and the like. As has been said, it must make things very awkward for anyone of any intelligence who wants to run for public office - at least in the UK we have political figures like Nick Clegg, David Miliband and George Osborne who aren't afraid to say that they don't believe in god. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jul 09 - 07:08 AM 1) Paine: Paine, while at first lionized in France, was thrown in prison , as I recall, for the crime of opposing the execution of Louis XVI. He was not one who knew how to win friends and influence people in his personal life--though a good pamphleteer. He in fact blamed Washington for letting him stay in prison in France, even going so far to accuse Washington of being a bad military commander, and, as I recall, also accusing him of cowardice. I have at least one biography of him--and it irks me that I can't locate it--otherwise I'd give you a direct quote. You can also cut hairs as much as you want, but at the time, regardless of anything he may have said disputing the idea that he was an atheist, he was looked at as such---and therefore political poison. He did not help his cause by not only attacking religion, but doing so by ridiculing tenets of various faiths--the Virgin Birth for instance. 2) the "joke": Well, if the originator of the thread wants us to be happy that atheists are lumped with Nazis in jokes as deserving of summary execution, I'm sure he knows best. Among other reasons the joke is worse than pathetic, the fact is that convinced Nazis were atheists--unless you consider that worship of Hitler is a religion. And that is a plausible statement. Since one of the many reasons atheism has been a complete disaster as a basis of government is that it allows the leader of the country to substitute for a deity--which makes it rather a problem to criticize said leader. 3) The poster who mentioned that atheists and religious fundamentalists are alike, in that both are certain of their beliefs, has the right of it. The difference being, as I've mentioned on other threads. that religious fundamentalists admit their belief is based on faith. Atheists are not intellectually honest enough to admit this. Which is interesting, since they are constantly alleging they have science behind them. Sorry, they do not. Agnostics do --since there is obviously no conclusive proof either way. Not atheists. And as I've also said, I'm not in the least religious. As I've also said elsewhere, any person who seriously thinks atheism has "hit the mainstream in the US", should stay out of politics. Just stay in nice friendly territory---like Mudcat. Any attempt by atheists to take "under God" out of the Pledge, "In God We Trust" off coins, etc, will do nothing but strengthen the Sarah Palins of the US. And if atheists ever do start thinking, perhaps they will realize this. The political stupidity of atheists was amply demonstrated in the 2004 election. And Sarah --(and like political figures)-- is already enough of a threat to the Republic without brilliant thinkers playing into her hands. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:19 PM Remarks on the New Atheism. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 12 Jul 09 - 07:10 PM I think you're right LH. When I say 'religious', by the way, I don't live in a particularly cosmopolitan place, so the observation is admittedly limited more or less to Christians and non-believers. Generally the higher the church, the greater the fuss. In that respect I feel sorry for them. I suspect a fair few will realise they've been conned just as it's too late. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:51 PM That might be because they did not fear divine punishment for their "sins". I can't fathom why anyone would believe in a vengeful God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Smokey. Date: 12 Jul 09 - 06:48 PM I was told by nurses who work at our local hospice that non-believers generally had far more peaceful deaths than religious folk and were more accepting of the situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Bill D Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:38 PM I have been told I'm GOING to Hell because of the state of my beliefs.......and I have been told I'm sure to go to Heaven because God will recognize my basic 'goodness' and righteous life. I'm not sure which scares me more. As you see, ANY combination of beliefs and rationalizations of them is possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: GUEST,Wesley S Date: 12 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM So - Mrzzy - are we EVER going to get to hear the answer to the joke? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM Good post, Jeri. I think there is a subtle cultural burden placed on the word "atheist" well beyond its definition, with connotations of "communist" or "evil-doer" built in. It has nothing to do with the question of recognizingodhood or not, but with a political indoctrination left over from the Fifties, IMHO. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Jeri Date: 12 Jul 09 - 02:11 PM Paine wrote something I've kept on file in my computer for years: ""He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself" - Thomas Paine "This may help people understand why the BNP can post here and why Nazis can hold parades in the US I don't like them, but I don't like a lot of people on Mudcat who think the word 'fuck' when aimed at an amorphous group of people should be removed but find nothing wrong with stalking, bullying and trying to rip individuals to shreds. You say people have rights, then say, 'Oh, except for THOSE people'. The Other People get into power and decide YOU are 'those people'. ALL people have rights or none do. As for the evils of religion, I think bad things happen because religion is a social construct. In any social construct, there are people vying for power and wealth, and that's true of religion as well. Mostly, I think there's a potential for the religiously powerful to misuse power, but there's the potential to use it wisely. Naturally, people have a habit of fouling up. Father Murphy's Law. I believe there are more athiests than those who self report on surveys. It may be a quibble over what 'atheist' means or it may be the negatives associated with the word. Personally, I never really talked about my lack of beliefs until Mudcat. I couldn't bear to see dissapointment in the faces of those kind people I knew. We used to discuss all kinds of stuff at one place I worked. That day, a guy I supervised (technicality--he didn't really need supervision) and I were talking about somebody he'd known. I forget almost everything about the conversation except this: the person had been trusted by my co-worker. He said, '...and then, do you know what he told me? He was an ATHEIST! Can you believe it!?' And there was no more trust between him and his friend after that. I wasn't that into confrontation then, especially not with a subordinate, but I figured not announcing my non-belief in a supreme being was definitely a good thing. Would I have told a pollster? I'm not actually sure. I know for a fact that there are some rather blind individuals who believe that if someone doesn't believe in God, they have no incentive to do right and HAVE to be evil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jul 09 - 01:02 PM Why must one be any kind of "ist"? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Mrrzy Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:16 PM If you don't care, you're an apatheist, no? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Rapparee Date: 12 Jul 09 - 12:02 PM You know, I don't think I've ever gone up to anyone and said, "Hi! Are you an atheist?" When the "missionaries" came to our door a) my wife responded "Catholic and likely to stay that way" and b) I said, "What the fuck business is it of YOURS?!" Sometimes I think I may be more short tempered than my wife, but I can't call a 19-year-old punk "Elder." Hell, I can't bring myself to call ANYONE "Elder." Those who deserve the title don't wear little signs announcing it and don't insist upon being called it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Stringsinger Date: 12 Jul 09 - 11:36 AM In the "Age Of Reason", Paine puts down Atheism. He considers it bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Atheism hits the mainstream! From: Amos Date: 12 Jul 09 - 10:57 AM Obviously they did not know their man!!! :D Thanks for the research! A |
