BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 24 Jul 09 - 10:23 AM

interesting take

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 11:30 AM

In any event, it looks like it's de-railed health care!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 12:10 PM

Well they've taken Peace's have a beer idea and screwed it up. Those two need to be alone in peace (Obama could hang out too) so that Gates can let Crowley know who he is and Crowley can let Gates know who he is. THEN they can become lifelong friends. In a photo-op ceremony with cameras rolling Gates needs to have his points on behalf of Black America made plain and Crowley has to speak on behalf of police officers across the nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 12:38 PM

I think Obama showed his fast thinking and touch of class with his personal appearance and statement that he could have "calibrated" his remarks better. (Interesting use of that term, maybe he's creating some new English usage as well).

I used to drive across two state lines to go Winter camping. I remember the difference in being able to control my car when the snow clearing operations on each side of the state line took the trouble to clear the boundry (well, at least one of 'em did). But on days when they each went JUST UP TO THE BORDER, there was a sickening slick spot in the middle.

Taking the trouble to go just a little bit further onto the other guy's turf makes all the difference.

It's pretty clear that a little flexibility on the part of all concerned would have 'un' created this issue.

Neighbor- Do you understand what you're looking at? How you frame the situation frames the cop's expectations.

Cop- Can you display some forbearance when it's clear that all the power is on your side?

Homeowner- The cop is their to protect you and your property, regardless of your color. The cop has obviously been informed of a potential break-in. Respect the other person's point of view and cool it. Try to see more than what you expect to see!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 12:49 PM

You hit the nail on the head, Charley Noble.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 01:31 PM

This is an amazingly many-faceted incident.   There sure is a lot to read on it.   Particularly the police report is instructive--and I don't think it was made up.

However, to say that either Obama or Gates owe Sgt. Crowley an apology is complete drivel.   It is not against the law to mouth off at a policeman.   It's not smart, but it's not against the law. So the job of the police is not easy.   Abuse comes with the territory. They have to accept it--or accept the consequences when they strike back in this sort of situation.

The arrest of Professor Gates was nothing more than the policeman showing his power. That comes under the heading of police abuse.

Having said that, Gates behaved amazingly stupidly. All he had to do was show his ID the first time he was asked, instead of going off on a racial rant--which was also complete drivel.   He acted like he had a chip on his shoulder from the moment he saw Sgt Crowley.   I suppose it's the "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".   And Gates' stock in trade is racism.

It appears that Crowley did in fact try to give his name--more than once.

It's also distressing that Gates appears now to be lying about what he (Gates) said--alleging that Crowley made up Gates' continuing racial rant.

This was two angry men. And neither had justification for what they did.   But the only unforgivable act was the arrest. The law against "disorderly conduct" is primarily aimed at "unruly behavior likely to set off wider unrest" (Slate) 22 July. It is absurd to think there could have been a riot due to Gates' behavior.

So there was no call for the arrest. And that's the only crucial point.

And President Obama is also right for calling the arrest "stupid", for the reason that it confirms the idea that racism can be alleged for any number of situations where the connection is tenuous at best.   The question is whether Crowley would have arrested a white who ranted and abused him, as Gates did, and came outside the house to continue his tirade.   Obviously a white would not have used the racial angle. But he could have yelled and screamed at the officer.   And then likely have been arrested by Sgt Crowley.

And Sgt. Crowley would have been wrong, just as he was wrong in this case.   "Racial profiling" is unlikely in this case--just an angry cop flexing his muscles. He may have taught classes on dealing with "racial profiling" but he's flunked his own class, since he's played into the hands of those who see racial profiling in anything they don't like.

It was indeed a wrongful arrest--and stupid besides.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM

Are you sure it's not illegal to yell stuff at a cop? I've always wondered this. (Can I just yell profanity at a parking meter monitor if I want to?) Or to keep ranting when he tells you to stop? I see a 7/23 Slate article but it must be the wrong one. I thought we were supposed to understand that arresting a screamer was "within bounds" but no one has explained when it is recommended or disfavored. mg's comment is relevant to this in terms of equal application of the law. If a skinhead were screaming at cops in his yard, his arrest wouldn't raise so many eyebrows (would it?)

In the larger picture it doesn't seem wise to permit unchecked screamfests. Asking cops to face potential weaponry seems enough to ask of them. Verbal implied threats obviously can't be tolerated. But is non-threatening ranting really legal?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:07 PM

Here's a quote from an anonymous commenter on a blog:

"Massachusetts courts have limited the definition of disorderly conduct to: fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition for no legitimate purpose other than to cause public annoyance or alarm. (The statute, however, just says "idle and disorderly persons," a formulation that is, on its own, patently unconstitutional.) Violators may be imprisoned for up to six months, fined a maximum of $200, or both.

The stilted language in the Gates police report is intended to mirror the courts' awkward phrasing, but the state could never make the charge stick. The law is aimed not at mere irascibility but rather at unruly behavior likely to set off wider unrest. Accordingly, the behavior must take place in public or on private property where people tend to gather. While the police allege that a crowd had formed outside Gates' property, it is rare to see a disorderly conduct conviction for behavior on the suspect's own front porch. In addition, political speech is excluded from the statute because of the First Amendment. Alleging racial bias, as Gates was doing, and protesting arrest both represent core political speech."

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: mg
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:12 PM

It would be a horrible precedent to make it OK to scream and yell at cops. For one thing, police vigor in pursuing crime might go way way down. Can you imagine some of those screaming women (and my mother was one) going off on the police? Some people would rather crime were not pursued and some would rather it would be pursued. Also, if a policewoman has to listen to tirades it means she can not respond quickly to the next incident, greatly reducing efficiency and response times etc. This is not something just the police must take -- it is something endangered citizens, particularly in crime-ridden neighborhoods -- must take if people are allowed to scream at police. And what is the line between that and resisting arrest?

Part of the answer is to have many police officers from both the predominant ethnic groups in the community and the ones with the greatest crime history..viscious circle sometimes because there is not always a great correlation...but anyway, way more represenation of various ethnic and cultural groups. Remove the ethnic and racial components to this overall problem and have a citizenry that expects to be pretty docile around police and of course have recourse if their rights are trampled etc. and hopefully some transparency etc.

I am really a law and order type of Democrat..it is the first and foremost social service we have and from it flows all sorts of economic benefits -- greater business opportunities and employment will flow into safe neighborhoods and out of unsafe ones. Greater health care opportunities. Better schools. It is the foundation of a society and can be either voluntary or unvoluntary and resisted, but without it you have awful scary places to live. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:27 PM

There's nothing unusual about cops arresting someone for ranting at them. It happens just about everywhere, and I can recall a couple of incidents in my town recently, one involving an old women who started raising a ruckus over the city snowplow which went by and created a drift that blocked off the end of her driveway (which always happens to everyone when the city plow goes by). She had just finished having someone else clear her driveway before it happened and she went nuts over it, starting yelling at the snowplow driver, then stood in front of his snowplow and wouldn't let him move on. He called the police. When the police arrived, they tried to calm her down and get her to go home, but she started ranting at them, so they arrested her and took her to the station. She was "humiliated" by the incident and decided to sue the police over it...but it was she who provoked the incident. Nevertheless she feels hard done by. Imagine what the media could do with this incident if she had happened to be <>Black. Yeah, just imagine.... ;-)

People get upset. Cops get upset. And when that happens, people often get arrested by the cops. It's a common type of incident, caused by frustration and impatience on both sides. It's not remarkable in any way. And it's a tempest in a teapot.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:42 PM

If I scream profanities at a parking meter monitor for sheer sport, I guess I have created a "physically offensive condition" for no legitimate purpose since he needs to be there to do his job. (?)

If I scream profanities at Crowley in my yard while he STILL NEEDS TO BE THERE, the same rule would apply?

Gates was within first amendment (bias and identfy yourself - but not protesting arrest) rights and Crowley didn't need to be there, unless he really feared social unrest from those Harvard employees standing around.

The good news, I guess, is that eveybody has room to maneuver into that group hug photo on the White House lawn.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:46 PM

Just imagine....while people in the media wrangle over this (and you have on one side those who wish to damage Obama...and on the other side those who wish to protect Obama)...at any rate, while they wrangle uselessly over this utterly trivial incident...

Things that actually matter, like reforming national health care, get pushed out of the public consciousness.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:47 PM

The bad news is what mg just said: Living in a tony neighborhood gives you more protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:00 PM

Just a couple of quasi-related items...

In 2008, Henry Louis Gates, Jr. contributed $4600 dollars to the presidential campaign of Barack Obama. This is the most a private party can contribute to one candidate in a given election cycle.

From 1989-91 Obama lived in Cambridge, MA.. Cambridge cops gave him 17 parking tickets which he ignored. In 2008, members of Obama's campaign staff payed the delinquent tickets because they thought the tickets looked bad and would be used against Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:09 PM

hmmmm... I'd like to know the source of that claim, pdq. IF true, then I'd like to know the details. I can't imagine it BEING 'public knowlege' and not being used against him, as things that weren't true were rumored about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:20 PM

Obama put both feet in his mouth on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:22 PM

...it's on many blogs, but here is the story from the Boston Globe:


"By David Abel, Globe Staff

Barack Obama is no longer a scofflaw, at least in Cambridge and Somerville.

Two weeks before the US senator from Illinois launched his presidential campaign, he paid parking tickets he received while attending Harvard Law School, officials said yesterday.

Obama received 17 parking tickets in Cambridge between 1988 and 1991, according to the city's Traffic, Parking & Transportation Department.

Of those tickets, he paid only two while he was a student and paid them late, said Susan Clippinger, the office's director.

In January, about when the Globe began asking local officials about Obama's time at Harvard, including any violations of local laws, someone representing the senator called the parking office to inquire about the decades-old tickets.

On Jan. 26, the remaining $375 in fines and fees were paid by credit card using the city's website, Clippinger said. She said she didn't know who paid them.

"I think it's fabulous he finally paid them," Clippinger said by phone yesterday. "I think others who owe us money should pay us, too."

Jen Psaki, a spokeswoman for the Obama campaign, said last night that the senator paid for the tickets out of a personal account.

She would not comment on why it had taken him so long to pay the tickets and fees. "All I can do is confirm that he paid all the tickets and late fees in full," she said.

Clippinger said her records show that Obama received the tickets between Oct. 5, 1988, and Jan. 12, 1990, for violations including parking in a resident-only area, blocking a bus stop, and failing to put money in meters.

He received most of the tickets in fall 1988, in his first year at Harvard Law School, a grueling trial for many of the students. A meter violation then cost only $5; the penalty for not paying promptly tacked on another $15. At times, he received multiple tickets in the same day for exceeding the time limit at a meter.

In total, he incurred $140 in fines and $260 in late fees. In February 1990, he paid two of the tickets, one for $10 and the other for $15.

"He's certainly not our worst ticket scofflaw," Clippinger said. "Unfortunately, it's not that abnormal. It's actually pretty run of the mill."

Obama's payment of the Cambridge tickets was reported yesterday by The Somerville News.

The Globe reported in January that in Somerville, where Obama lived while attending Harvard, the senator still owed the city $73 in excise taxes and $45 in late penalties for parking in a bus stop in 1990 and in a street-sweeping zone in 1991. Both of the tickets had been paid.

Tom Champion, a spokesman for the city of Somerville, said he called Obama's office after receiving a query about the late fees from the Globe in late January.

By the next Monday, Jan. 29, he said, the penalties were paid.

"He had no idea he had outstanding charges," Champion said. "The Globe, by raising the issue, called it to his attention, and then he paid them immediately."

Globe correspondent Khristopher Flack contributed to this story. David Abel can be reached at [e-mail].
© Copyright 2007 Globe Newspaper Company."

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:13 PM

Gates seems like one of those people who have been dreaming of an opportunity like this to get his name in the papers, and once the time arrived, he wasn't about to let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:14 PM

There's no way around not paying parking tickets in Ontario, because they're all linked into a huge computerized system. If you don't pay them, no matter where you incur them, your driving license eventually gets suspended. This didn't used to be the case, and out of town people usually just ignored parkuing tickets they got in some different town to theirs, because they only applied to local residents. Not any more! ;-) The "happy time" is over for Ontarians who park illegally...or overtime on their meter.

I would give the Obama parking tickets thing about as much importance as the Gates thing. That is...just about none at all. That's because I'm not out to get Barack Obama and because I think he's probably grown up a little since he was a student.

If I was out to get him, though, I'd hang onto both those stories like a leech and I'd milk every last drop of scandal out of them that I possibly could.

You betcha. Party politics is the bread and butter of such leeches. They live to do harm and spread bad news.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:24 PM

"they thought the tickets looked bad and would be used against Obama"

Which is exactly what is happening on this thread. (What does it have to do with the Gates incident, by the way? Is it supposed to be evidence that Obama hates police?)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:49 PM

I hadn't noticed anyone turning this into a love or hate Obama thread until Little Hawk deflected it there, professing an interest in health care. It's Gates who says this event is what great movies are made of.

Ah, well. It is mudcat, so I guess it has to end up there. . .

But thanks RD for getting us to the law on disorderly conduct.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 05:13 PM

"I am pleased that [Obama], too, is eager to use my experience as a teaching moment, and if meeting Sgt. Crowley for a beer with the president will further that end, then I would be happy to oblige,' Gates said in a statement on TheRoot.com."

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 05:16 PM

Disorderly conduct? All of us posters at mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: mg
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 05:39 PM

I am glad they arrested snowplow lady. Every snowplow lady that gets arrested makes the playing field more level for people who have more than their share of police interactions and I say look for more snowplow ladies. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 05:42 PM

Look, Gates has a long-time reputation for being abrasive. BUT, I think it's only reasonable to demand higher standards of behavior from a cop than from a private citizen. In any case, I'm not sure that it's possible to be perorm "disorderly conduct" in one's own home.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:25 PM

mg - Yeah, she (the snowplow lady) kind of deserved to get arrested, I think. On the other hand, I felt sort of sorry for her too....because she's one of those people who just lost it due to a momentary frustration. Lack of maturity on her part, I'd call it. Mind you, I feel sorry for the snowplow driver and the police officers who had to put up with her tirades too... ;-) (What I mean is, I get what was bugging all of them at the time, but one has to rise above certain brief inconveniences in life...like getting your driveway blocked by a passing snowplow...and one needs to remember when those things happen that one is NOT the only human being in the world whose needs matter!)

heric - My point is that those who wish to cause some political damage to Barack Obama will sieze upon this particular story and Obama's part in it like a dog grabbing a hotdog that just fell to the floor. They will pretend all kinds of noble reasons for doing so, but their real motivation will be their usual motivation: to damage Barack Obama or his party. Sheer political opportunism, in other words.

Now...if it was a similarly trivial story that involved, say, Sarah Palin...then those people I'm alluding to above would not be leaping on it with such alacrity, as it would not suit their political agenda. Instead, a different group of people here would be leaping on it...their motivation: to damage Sarah Palin and her party.

The two groups of people I'm alluding to are normally found firmly positioned on the opposite sides of pretty well any American political controversy. Their rivalry here is as predictable as that of zealous Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.

dick - Well, I think you can be guilty of disorderly conduct in your own home. I've seen people guilty of disorderly conduct in their own homes more than once, and I'm not joking when I say that.

I think Gates got unreasonable. I think the police probably also got unreasonable. It would be best for all concerned now if they shook hands, agreed to put the issue to rest, and got on with the next useful thing in their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:42 PM

The eye witnesses, to a person, say that the police officer acted calmly and like a police officer. There was only one person who was out of control and that was Gates.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: mg
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:54 PM

I am sure all sorts of domestic violence incidents involve disorderly conduct toward officers. Likewise drug arrests.

Just think of what it would be like if being cooperative with police was quite optional, as some here believe it is or should be...if you could get people to be police officers you would still have a very big mess with too many saying screw it and either retiring in place or looking the other way etc.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 07:11 PM

...from a press conference by Obama:


"Now, I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home; and, number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there's a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately. That's just a fact.

As you know, Lynn, when I was in the state legislature in Illinois, we worked on a racial profiling bill because there was indisputable evidence that blacks and Hispanics were being stopped disproportionately. And that is a sign, an example of how, you know, race remains a factor in the society." ~ Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 07:42 PM

And as you know, Obama backtracked considerably in a subsequent statement. Now, why wouldn't you quote from that statement, with some Christmassy-red highlighting?

What's your point, anyway? Everybody knows what Obama said, and nobody here is saying that this was his finest moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 07:49 PM

Wait a minute. WHY WOULD WE BE ANGRY? WE'RE THE HOME OWNER. Someone was worried about our house and called it in. The cops are there to protect my house. Why should they know who I am? Why shouldn't they be worried about the possibility that while they were on their way over someone broke into my house and is still there?

Cops go into unknown situations and have to pick up on a host of facts and details that may not all be apparent.

The varied attitudes and assumptions that people bring to this thread only emphasize what a mixed bag this whole incident is. If you've got blinders on you're going to concentrate on one aspect or another, but what was going down was several things:

Report of an apparent crime, partial description of the suspects.

Class division- Harvard don and city cop.

Racial division- Black homeowner, white cop, (white witness?), potential home breaker reported as black

cop attitude not to back down at a challenge

this is more than enough to create a problem out of nothing, which is exactly what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 07:56 PM

Don't forget the fact that two suspects were reported.

The cop must assume that the second suspect is also inside the house.

Cop had no way of knowing that suspect II had gone home already...that would have become known if Gates had cooperated

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:06 PM

"Don't forget the fact that two suspects were reported."

            I hadn't heard that. That might explain a lot of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:08 PM

Gates was angry at what the cop was thinking, not anything he said or did (except for the failure to identify himself - but he knew and said Crowley was refusing to answer only because Gates is black.) That's set forth very clearly in the interview written up by his daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:42 PM

"If you've got blinders on you're going to concentrate on one aspect or another, "

But one might also have blinders on if one is incapable of deciding that one of the participants was right and the other, wrong. It's an amazing thing, this notion that conflict resolution need be nothing more than coming into a situation and declaring both sides equally wrong. Not every conflict is the result of both sides being wrong. This is one of them.

I can't get my mind around any possible explanation wherein I could put myself in Gates' shoes and be angry at the police. Had he handled it like every other person I know and merely cooperated, the police would have been gone in a matter of short minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:44 PM

"Gates was angry at what the cop was thinking"

No, he wasn't. He couldn't have KNOWN what the police officer was thinking. How could he? He might have been angry at what he thought the police officer was thinking. But he was wrong in the assumption -- the witnesses and records illustrate this quite satisfactorily.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM

PDQ-

That statement above you cited was from Obama's initial press conference on health insurance.

You might in the public interest include a quote or two from his subsequent press statement where he has invited both Officer Crowley and Professor Gates to "share a beer" at the White House and resolve this disagreement like (ALERT: my phrasing) "mature people" rather than "flaming assholes." You might give some consideration to doing the same on this thread, or not!

And what is your sudden interest in the subject of "parking tickets"?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:51 PM

"He couldn't have KNOWN what the police officer was thinking. How could he?"

A re-read of the article is worthwhile. Gates is not only a narcissist and a drama queen, he has the ability to read minds. Crowley really didn't know who he was messing with.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 09:01 PM

"include a quote or two from his subsequent press statement"

In which he still maintained that the situation was one of two people equally at fault -- he merely called them "Two good men", but that still doesn't change the fact that he blamed the officer when there was no blame there to be had. And he also still maintained that the situation was about race. It only became about race because of Gates and Obama. It was NEVER about race to the police officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: pdq
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 09:51 PM

Yes, the initial call to police stated that two men with backpacks were forcing open the door of the house:


"According to a police report ...a neighbor saw the two men "wedging" their shoulders into the door "to force entry" and phoned police.

This is where the two accounts of the incident diverge. Gates maintains he was discriminated against from the outset, but Crowley reports that he initially asked Gates to come and speak with him, to which Gates responded, "No, I will not."

Despite Gates' attitude and later accusations, Crowley reported that he was quickly satisfied that Gates was the homeowner. His next step was to determine whether there were, in fact, actual burglars who might still be in the residence. For all Crowley knew, Gates had arrived after the phone call had been made and might be walking in on a burglary.

After asking Gates whether there were other people inside, Crowley said the professor yelled to him that it was "none of my business and accused me of being a racist police officer." Gates also had picked up a phone and, while warning Crowley that he had no idea who he was "messing with," telephoned the police department. Undeterred, Crowley asked Gates for identification. After initially refusing, Gates presented his Harvard credentials.

Ironically, it wasn't during their exchange that Gates wound up being arrested. After the officer had exited the residence and was preparing to leave, Gates continued to hurl epithets. Crowley warned him twice that he was becoming disorderly and would be placed under arrest if he didn't calm down. Gates ignored the warnings and the officer arrested him. "

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:13 PM

I think if we all spent more time drinking beer together, we'd have a lot fewer misunderstandings. It was the cop who suggested the three-way beer break to Obama, and Obama and Gates agreed. But hey, it was Bruce Murdoch who posted it here first, long before the cop's proposal.
Have a beer on me, Bruce!
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: meself
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:16 PM

Who says Mudcat can't change the world?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:30 PM

I would agree that Gates is probably the person primarily to blame. He may even be the person entirely to blame. Okay, fine. He overreacted and created an unnecessary scene, but no one got killed, nothing got damaged, and everybody's basically okay now. So wouldn't it be nice if he, the media, the cops, the political parties, and everybody else here could all just get over it?

This would require calming down a bit, of course, letting bygones be bygones, resisting the temptation to score some cheap shots on old enemies, and swallowing a wee bit of pride. Hmm?

Or is it more satisfying to stay upset?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:32 PM

Puts me to mind of the time in the early 50s when I was working in a poor section of Newark. Most of the cops were lower-class Italians; most of the other citizens were lower-class blacks. It didn't take long to realize that one sure way to push an Italian's buttons was to call him a motherfucker. And that phrase, at the time, constituted about 25% of the street's vocabulary. There was a lot of head busting.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:39 PM

I bet there was. It sure is something how a lot of people will insist on waving the red flag right in the bull's face, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 11:51 PM

I'd have a beer with you anytime, Joe. That's a fer sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:11 AM

According to the police report the officer made, Mr. Gates never touched him and officer was never in physical danger. Nor was he inciting a riot or other neighborhood uprising.

Did he arrest him in order to save face? If he objected to Mr. Gates' "loud and tumultuous voice", all he had to do was leave.

"It is not against the law to mouth off at a policeman.   It's not smart, but it's not against the law. So the job of the police is not easy." Ron Davies

"The law is aimed not at mere irascibility but rather at unruly behavior likely to set off wider unrest. Accordingly, the behavior must take place in public or on private property where people tend to gather. While the police allege that a crowd had formed outside Gates' property, it is rare to see a disorderly conduct conviction for behavior on the suspect's own front porch." heric

Being a jerk - even a loud one - is not illegal. I suspect that a white person has no concept of what it is like to be confronted by a White police officer while being Black.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 12:26 AM

Well, here's a thing to ponder. Recognizing that we STILL don't know the facts but have collected a few more, and that we will never know what is inside a man's mind - his experiences and whatever else drives him - doesn't it look so far as if Gates, for his own self-aggrandizement, was willing to destroy a man's career and turn him into a national pariah? Any man will do to serve his agenda, it seems he does not care. And only by the luck of the draw was it not a man with lesser credentials and skills than Crowley.

His latest statement says "this is not about me." So he learns, but he seems to be a very slow learner.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:08 AM

Bet I'd have to buy my own beer/diet coke. ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM

Not a chance, Liz. OK, maybe the Diet Coke--that stuff always tasted like warm piss to me,