BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 07:16 AM

'"Also, it is not at all a " sad waste of people's time and energy" for anyone who intends to stop President Obama's health care reform."'

                That's true, Ron. The incident certainly stopped health care reform in it tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 07:25 AM

What about the pattern of almost constantly attacking prominent blacks and Hispanics?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM

Yes, racial profiling is a huge problem! es! It is sickening. Yes!

However, if ANYONE wants to reduce their chances of getting arrested by police ( all together now in chorus:)

"Be as polite as you can be to the police and DON'T STEP OUTSIDE YOUR HOME AND DON'T INVITE THEM IN."

As assinine as it is, your porch is not considered by the police to be part of your protected domicile.

And I still believe that if Skip Gates lived in the world most of the rest of us live in, he would not have yelled at the police.

more of the same 2 cents
harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:18 AM

What I mean when I say it's a tawdry problem, mg, is that it was just another situation with two prickly men who got ticked off at each other and got unreasonable with each other. Gates was clearly unreasonable with the cop, and the cop was probably unreasonable with him too (in that he should probably not have arrested him). That problem of two men being unreasonable with each other because of their own pride has been happening ever since the first cave men or Pithecanthropus or whatever walked this Earth. It's an eternal problem.

It's one of the things that creates a lot of unnecessary strife on this forum too...(and women are not immune to falling into that same error, but I'd have to say that men commit that error a bit more often than women do). Most of the strife and backbiting on this forum results from pride-based confrontations between people which escalate and get nastier and nastier...and that's what happened between Gates and the police officer.

It happens in every society, it always has, and it probably always will, and no set of laws or media debates about racism will ever make it stop happening.

That's why I say this incident was, in itself, a tawdry problem. If Gates was not a high profile guy and a friend of Obama we wouldn't even be hearing about it.

Can you use the incident to discuss issues like racism or disrespect toward police officers? Yeah, sure, you can. But you are never going to change the basic fact that a lot of people are still going to get their backs up and get unreasonable with one another in various situations regardless of what the heck race they are or what is going on. They do it basically because they are too insecure and too self-centered to give much thought to how the other person might be affected by their aggressive behaviour. They don't care about the other person's feelings. The only thing they give a damn about is their own sense of pride and entitlement...their own self-image.

And that is a completely individual issue that transcends race, economic level, creed, job description, nationality, or any other group definition you can come up with.

Ron - You are absolutely right when you say: "it is not at all a " sad waste of people's time and energy" for anyone who intends to stop President Obama's health care reform.   Chances for health care reform depend to a large extent on his personal popularity, which as a result of this incident and his role in the aftermath has taken a hit. And the more prominence this incident receives the greater the damage to President Obama.   The fact this story has amazing "legs" is not good for health care reform--or anything else which depends heavily on President Obama's personal political capital.

I couldn't agree more with you on that. I bet that's one key reason WHY we are hearing so much about this incident and why it will not go away. I do regard it as a sad waste of time for people to be doing that, mind you...but that doesn't mean that it's a sad waste of time for them...not from their point of view, because it yields exactly the political result they desire. It's just a sad waste of time from the point of view of someone who doesn't want to see damage done to Obama's credibility and his administration and his attempts to reform health coverage in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 11:52 AM

"What about the pattern of almost constantly attacking prominent blacks and Hispanics?"

                  Ron - I'm not sure that has any affect on health care.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 07:45 PM

Rig-
well, it certainly shifts attention from any discussion of healthcare.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:23 PM

Rig-- My question, as if it's a big mystery to you, is exactly why your posts, when they mention a prominent black or Hispanic, virtually always cite them in a negative light.

It is amazingly similar to a pervasive and continuing racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jul 09 - 09:30 PM

Ron - Sometimes I make mention of a prominent figure who is casting himself or herself in a negative light. I have nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:15 AM

"...it was just another situation with two prickly men who got ticked off at each other and got unreasonable with each other."

Probably true enough - but there is a big big difference between what they did. Gettig angry and shouting a bit is in no way equivalent to arresting someone, handcuffing them and taking off to be locked in a cell when they have not done anyting that warrants that. Police officers are given special power, and they have a duty not to misuse that power which they exercise on behalf of the wider community.

Suggesting that both parties are equally responsible just because boity are at fault is analogous to saying that in a domestic dispute the one who uses violence is no more responsible than the one who said something that provoked that violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 09:49 AM

Rig--

That won't wash.   Your attacks are lopsidedly against black and Hispanic figures.   I find it hard to believe that blacks and Hispanics virtually never do anything right.   The second part of it is you make excuses for figures who are not black or Hispanic.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 10:51 AM

Well, Ron, maybe I should launch an attack against you. If you'll just let me know what color you are, I'll know how to proceed and...

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:16 PM

(chuckle)

Never mind, Rig. There's no way out now that you've been accused of racism. There is No escape. You are forever branded now, just like a "witch" in Salem or a heretic in medieval Spain. Yessiree, Rig, the jig is up now that Ron has you all figured out. You can squirm, twist, and turn, but you will never escape his righteous hand of justice!

The only effective way I can imagine that you might fight back...(other than simply not giving a damn what Ron Davies thinks about you)...is to accuse him of something similarly heinous and hound him endlessly about it on this forum. Sexism is always a fun accusation. Search through Ron's many posts and see if you can find some marginal evidence of that somewhere. Then there's anti-semitism...always a good possibility of finding that if you look hard enough and with malice aforethought. It's a real killer. Then there's just general snottiness and what could be termed a "pissy" attitude toward others, but it's not nearly as controversial as te accusation of sexism, racism or antisemitism, and you can't destroy someone's reputation with it, so I'd only fall back on that as a last resort. My advice? Go for the BIG character assassination guns. You know, the popular ones.

***

McGrath - I'm not suggesting that they're equally to blame. I'm just suggesting that they're both to blame to some extent or another for what happened. Agreed? I think they both got unreasonable.

I don't know if they're equally to blame, because I'd have to have been there and witnessed the entire incident myself to make that judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:19 PM

Here is what I think I take away from this: You cannot get to justice by bullying.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 01:35 PM

That's right.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 03:48 PM

As you say Little Hawk, it seems very likely they were both to blame, and both "got unreasonable" - but in the case of Gates "getting unreeasonable" may have amounted to mouthing off, and perhaps making some unfair comments, while in the case of Crowley it amounted to (mis)using police powers to slap handcuffs on Gates and cart him off to be incarcerated. A different order of "unreasonable".

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 04:55 PM

"You are forever branded now, just like a "witch" in Salem..."

             That's it LH. Ron is profiling us withces. Wait till Eric Holder hears about this!

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:03 PM

McGrath saith thusly:

but in the case of Gates "getting unreeasonable" may have amounted to mouthing off,

Exactly. "May have".

and perhaps making some unfair comments,

Right. "And perhaps".

Both right so far.

while in the case of Crowley it amounted to (mis)using police powers

Here's where the statements are wrong. McGrath states as a fact that "it amounted to (mis)using police powers".   No "perhaps"; no "may have".   Just the bald assertion of misuse of police powers, only partly shriven by the parentheses.   Not even "in my opinion, based on what filtered through the media."

Were you there, McGrath? Did you personally have the opportunity to hear and to see what went on? The police officer did. Do you have the depth of police training and experience that Officer Crowley does?

A little less assertiveness in laying unknowledgeable accusations would be indicated, methinks.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Aug 09 - 07:05 PM

There was a brilliant bit of journalism about this in today's Guardian by Pamela Merritt. Read it here.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:21 PM

"branding" Rig.   Uh, not exactly. More like actually reading what Rig says--over a considerable period.   Rather than favoring us with facile inanities.   But don't worry, you'll have a chance to observe in the future what Rig says about both black and Hispanic figures on one hand, and those who are not on the other. If you are actually willing to read.

However, anyone who thinks the Guardian article is "brilliant" is rather credulous and/or lazy.

It is quite easy to find out that in fact the officer did not refuse to accept Gates' ID. And that Gates was not arrested for "taking issue" but for allegedly creating a disturbance by loud and
"disorderly" conduct. You can "take issue" quietly. Gates did not.

The fact that the arrest was entirely unjustified does not mean the rest of us should accept sloppy journalism like the Guardian article.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 01:40 AM

Okay only because you brought the thread back to the top: Driving along I envisioned Gates appearing in heaven, allowed to visit Rosa Parks in her room, then watching her eyes as she tries for some glimmer of understanding what he's talking about, as he tells the glorious story and how he honoured her legacy and carried it forward. It works with almost anyone - Jackie Robinson, Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali, Cesar Chavez, the uprisers on Flight 93, Dred Scott, Lena Horne, Sade. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 01:17 PM

As I said before, disorderly conduct is permitted within the bounds of your own home, if the general public isn't exposed to it. May not be bright when there's a cop there, but it's certainly not illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 01:21 PM

dick,

"disorderly conduct is permitted within the bounds of your own home, if the general public isn't exposed to it."

and outside of the house, where a crowd is gathered to experience it? That is what was reported, Gates was warned twice OUTSIDE the house before the arrest.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 02:32 PM


As I said before, disorderly conduct is permitted within the bounds of your own home,

But this was NOT within the bounds of his own home. It started there, but he brought it out into public.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 09:37 PM

Some further context:

Bob Herbert in the NY Times: Innocence Is No Defense

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: heric
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:15 PM

Thanks DD

more:

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2009/04/25/harvard_advised_to_name_ombudsman/

http://blackpoliticalthought.blogspot.com/2008/08/harvard-university-to-scrutinize-campus.html

http://www.president.harvard.edu/speeches/faust/080826_hupd.php

(Not to imply anything, just as a point about reading the news: "youngster attempting to remove a lock from a bicycle tried to explain" might have been phrased "youth using boltcutters on a bike lock." I can't find any results on the promised review of that gun-waving policeman. - sounds like he'd fit in well in San Diego.)

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 01:43 AM

My own opinion (and that's all it is - an opinion) is that Henry Gates was sick and also very tired and jet lagged. I don't think it was his position of privilege that caused him to snap. I think it was his being tired, jet lagged, and sick, combined with the accumulated weight of a lifetime of living in a country that does practice racial profiling against Black people in a way that is profoundly upsetting when experienced over the course of a lifetime.

I think his behavior was perfectly understandable under the circumstances. Not smart, but who among us is smart under fire when we are tired, sick, and jet lagged?

I think the officer probably presented a demeanor that was easy to read as being motivated by racial profiling, regardless of whether or not it was his intention to racially profile Dr. Gates. And I think there is an excellent chance that he did treat Dr. Gates differently than he would have treated a White person. I say this because I don't see any other reason why the Police would lie in their report about what was said in the 911 call.

All of this put together would explain for me why Obama chose to try to resolve it in the way he did. Everyone probably has some amount of egg on their face, and what better way to clean it off than with a little beer among gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:23 PM

"However, anyone who thinks the Guardian article is "brilliant" is rather credulous and/or lazy."

Brilliant journalism - funny, well written and engaging. Does that explain what I mean any more clearly? And enough already with the snide personal stuff, Mr Davies. Ok? You can make your point without tipping over.

I shall now take a deep breath and rise above...

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: fretless
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:07 AM

And just to add a new dimension to the story, another African-American Harvard professor has come forward with a somewhat similar tale of being arrested in 2006 when the Cambridge cops asked him to step outside of the protection of his home. There are complicating issues here (read the story below from today's Boston Globe), but one has to wonder about the comparative police records of Harvard's AfAm and Caucasian faculty members.

...........
Second professor accuses police of bias
Harvard official asserts racism in 2006 arrest
By Tracy Jan, Globe Staff | August 6, 2009

A second black Harvard professor accused the Cambridge police of racism yesterday in wrongfully arresting him outside his home nearly three years ago.

S. Allen Counter, a prominent Harvard Medical School professor and head of the Harvard Foundation for Intercultural and Race Relations, spoke about his arrest on assault and battery charges in an editorial published yesterday with The Bay State Banner. The disclosure follows last month's high-profile arrest of renowned African-American scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr.

Counter's attorney, Ozell Hudson Jr., told the Globe yesterday that Counter is considering his legal options over the manner he says he was treated after he complied with a request to step outside his house in December 2006 when police arrived to investigate a call by his former wife. She reported to police that Counter had tried to push their teenage daughter out of a moving car during an argument.

Counter said he had not previously publicized the arrest because he feared that police would harass him and his family. But he told Harvard colleagues about the incident and said he felt he had been mistreated because he is black. Counter said he was not told why police were at his home nor why he was being arrested.

In recent years, he said, it has become a common belief among the black community at Harvard that they should stay put when police come to the door.

"The word around Harvard is never step outside your house with these guys,'' Counter said in a phone interview. "We advise people not to step out. You call an attorney and stay in your house.''

Cambridge police would not comment on Counter's arrest yesterday. But a spokesman said that police have a right to enter homes without a warrant if there is probable cause.

"We don't bait people to come outside,'' said Officer Frank Pasquarello, the police spokesman. "All across America, people step outside their houses and meet us on the porch. We don't go in if they come out. But once we're in there, we don't have to take you outside to lock you up.''

Gates has said in previous interviews with the Globe that he was hesitant to cross the safety of his doorway when Cambridge police Sergeant James Crowley asked him to step outside while investigating a possible burglary.

Neither Gates nor his attorney - Harvard law school professor Charles Ogletree, who Counter said has assisted in his case - responded to requests for comment yesterday.

It is unclear whether Counter's experience factored into Gates' decision to initially remain inside his home during his run-in with Crowley.

"I was polite, and yet police lied and said I was loud, just as they did with Professor Gates,'' Counter said yesterday.

Counter collapsed at the police station because of a heart condition and was transported to Cambridge Hospital, where he said he was handcuffed to a hospital bed all night while a police officer stood guard in his room. He was ultimately acquitted of the assault and battery charges during an October 2007 trial.

"I feel this is a case of racial and criminal harassment on the part of police,'' Counter said.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:12 AM

How many black professors does Harvard have? Once we know that, we'll know when we're going to get to the end of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: fretless
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:30 AM

Yeah, I suppose. But then there's always Yale and Princeton.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:38 AM

"She reported to police that Counter had tried to push their teenage daughter out of a moving car during an argument."


I can see why this arrest was improper- THAT is obviously acceptable behaviour amoung Harvard professors.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: fretless
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:56 AM

Yup, that's why I wrote "complicating issues." A he said/she said dispute in the midst of a troubled marriage. And, of course, he was acquitted of the charges. There's no way of knowing what actually went on in either of these cases, so we bring our predispositions to our determinations of whether we are dealing with arrogant, improperly behaving minority faculty members or racist officers of the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:22 AM

" arrogant, improperly behaving minority faculty members "

Please strike "minority"

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 02:01 AM

Why, bb? Isn't that what this is about? Surely you are not implying that Black faculty members are in the majority?

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 09:28 AM

No, I think the problem is "arrogant, improperly behaving faculty members " Regardless of race- to single out only the minority ones seems a bit bigoted.

I will bet the police could give examples ( that will never make the news) about faculty members who are NOT minorities, acting as if they had special priviledges and different rights than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: fretless
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 03:18 PM

I will happily and readily concede that "arrogant' and "Harvard faculty members" are noun-adjective clusters that go together like white on rice, but in this instance being black was central to the issue, perhaps in reality, certainly in the case of Gates' perception of the incident, and possibly in the case of Officer Crowley's response to Gates as a potential burglary suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Henry Louis Gates arrested - profiling
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Aug 09 - 09:34 PM

It's not hard to see why he'd be pissed. The whole thing was just a bad scene. Hopefully the Beer-Fest will help.