BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:50 PM

Canada is a country of immigrants. We have one the best countries in the world according to most other countries. Let us know when you want it done. We'll be proud 'ta gie ya a han, Jimmy.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:45 PM

"People are more concerned about living than they are about anything else."


                   There are a number of ways to read that statement. Immigrants are concerned about living, and the populations into which immigrants are trying to assimilate are concerned about living as well.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: jeddy
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:42 PM

people are concerned with living first. then second protecting what they have from 'threats'. in this case a manipulated threat from immigrant workers.

poeple from the UK need to remember how many ex pats there are working and living all over the world. howver moat of the countries they have gone to have welcomed them with open arms and as a nation we would lie to do the same to others. if the BNP and others would stop scaremongering we would be doing so already.

take care all

jade x x x

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:27 PM

People are more concerned about living than they are about anything else. Never forget that.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:21 PM

"So why has the BNP gained votes?"

            More people are worried about human population growth than are worried about the human condition!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:03 PM

The guy lives in Ontario and I love him anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:00 PM

It's the Tim Hortons coffee. It kills yer brain cells. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:58 PM

Pardo n theba dtyp in g



                                                                               ,

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:54 PM

Amen to that. And here I thought you were just another pretty face.

The BNP., as will all Fascist organizations, use a culture against itself. Allow me to ask fascists: if your neighbour is of a different accent, will you despise him? Will you hate him? If so,, what shall we think of YOUR accent? The BNP are weak in thought. They cannot be strong in thought because their premise is wrong. The problem is NOT immigrants: the problem is a difficulty iof etting to know another culture, Since the BNP doesn't really know its own, they're 'f*****.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:02 PM

I understand what is concerning you about the BNP using folk music in schools, and so on, "Snail". You just have to combat that by getting your own message out in the clearest and most positive way you can, I would think, but there's no way to stop a fascist social movement from making use of a country's traditional music.

You just have to make better use of it than they do, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:13 PM

And thank you, LH. You aced what I meant. But then, you would.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM

"Thanks to Joe, this is now the only thread we have so I don't think it is too much to ask that it be kept on subject."

Look beyond your nose. There IS another thread. This is not the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 08:45 PM

And I'll say it again--but then I see you've said it on my behalf. Many thanks.

And fyi, to many people in North America the 'rise' and present 'slump' of the BNP means a great deal to us also. You're smug sob to think that you, and you alone, have a francise on a hatred of fascism. Jaysus. Bryan, we have been at odds before. And here we are at it again. I opened this thread to apologize for my remarks. I hereby do so. BUT, stop already with your horseshit, OK? And thank you for saying what I do think and feel about the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 07:22 PM

The BNP and other right wing groups have it as their stated aim to use British traditional music and customs to promote their cause. I know from my own experience that they would also like to use it to insinuate themselves into schools. There is no possibility that they will take over British folk music but they could do it serious harm by soiling its name with their odious views. This could have major repercussions in terms of funding, availability of venues and the general image in the mind of the public.

Thanks to Joe, this is now the only thread we have so I don't think it is too much to ask that it be kept on subject. To some of us here in the UK it matters very much.

Little Hawk, I very much agree with your last post but it was one of your compatriots who was most keen on saying "Fuck the BNP".

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 06:32 PM

I think Peace was making a rather good satirical point by arbitrarily blaming "rabbits" for all the world's troubles. He was demonstrating just how silly it is when a political movement starts demonizing some particular minority group of people for its own political gains. It could be the Jews or the Gyspies or the Hispanics or the Hindus or the Muslims...or the rabbits.

That's the satirical point, isn't it? The point is the innate irrationality and unfairness of blaming some whole group of people for your problems, whatever you think those problems are.

But don't complain that your democracy allows a BNP member to get elected in some riding. If it didn't allow some particular category of political candidate to get elected...provided he or she got enough votes to get elected...then it simply wouldn't BE a democracy. It would be something else just pretending to be a democracy. It would be a controlled oligarchy of officially sanctioned viewpoints, not a democracy.

You cannot found a true democracy upon the exclusion of those viewpoints you don't happen to like or agree with. If you have a message which you think is better than theirs, then my suggestion is: get your own message out there. Don't waste your energy attacking them. Promote what is positive in your own message. I get tired of hearing people attack other people when they could be presenting positive ideas of their own instead.

That's why Mother Teresa once refused an invitation to attend an "anti-war" demonstration, but she said she would be happy to attend any "peace" demonstration.

The first is based upon angrily attacking someone else's agenda. The second is based on resolutely presenting a positive agenda of your own. There's a vital difference in psychology there. It's the difference Obama kept trying to articulate in the past USA election (not that I think Obama is perfect in that respect...he's not...but he did at least try to stick to positives instead of constantly attacking other people).

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 05:55 PM

Peace, I agree with part of what you say: indeed quite a lot of it. But I don't feel that getting ratty with the Snail is appropriate.

There were a a number of North Americans diminishing this topic (no matter what small-minded poilticiand and followers they have at home) by wabbitting along about wabbits.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM

Here's the whole song.



"Only A Pawn In Their Game"

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood
A finger fired the trigger to his name
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man's brain
But he can't be blamed
He's only a pawn in their game.

A South politician preaches to the poor white man
"You got more than blacks, don't complain
You're better than them, you been born with white skin" they explain
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

From the powerty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks
And the hoof beats pound in his brain
And he's taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide 'neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain't got no name
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught
They lowered him down as a king
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He'll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:39 PM

Here's the next stanza in Dylan's song "Only a Pawn in Their Game"

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool
He's taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
'Bout the shape that he's in
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:34 PM

Richard, the question IS important. However, we really don't need to search so far to see the answer. People who are having a rough time will look for soemone to blame. Hitler chose the Jews. They were easy targets. Today, the BNP chooses immigrants. They too are easy targets. Recall if you would the words to one of Dylan's songs:

"A South politician preaches to the poor white man
"You got more than blacks, don't complain
You're better than them, you been born with white skin" they explain
And the Negro's name
Is used it is plain
For the politician's gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain't him to blame
He's only a pawn in their game."

There have always been political parties that appeal to the basest of people. The greatness of democracy is that all votes are equal. It's also its great failing.

Snail's suggestion that this is being treated lightly by Canucks or Yanks is bull. Here we have the Aryan Nations and the US has the KKK. We even have people elected to government who are just a bit to the right of Hitler. However, they don't get to set policy, and that's good.

If Snail didn't want shit thrown at him he could have used the message function. He wants it public, well, it's public.

If Lizzie tells me to back off I will. She started this thread. Snail? He's just another poster with an opinion, just like the rest of us. He should read Thurber, btw.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 04:21 PM

Actually, this is an important topic (albeit based on a false premise) and I don't think it is being treated with the importance it deserves. Snail, I agree with you.

The fact that people as vile and loathsome as the BNP can get any sort of electoral seat indicates a deep problem with our democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:54 PM

PS, Snail. ANY time we talk BNP we're talking rubbish. However, I will ask all Canucks to check with you before they post. Would that help?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:41 PM

It's not rubbish, Snail--except in your head. We SHOULD blame the rabbits. Why the rabbits? Good question. Why the immigrants?

You want to say what you want to say, Snail, then fuckin' do so. But quit your whinging. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Lox
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:32 PM

Hey Rig

While we're on the subject of religion being responsible for division and killing etc ... a favourite drum for aethists to bang ...

... how many religious people died as a result of the imposition of an aetheist ideology in China during the cultural revolution and in the USSR during the purges?

As for your comments about immigrants and immigration, you are talking utter bollocks. In reality, places where there are large numbers of immigrants change culturallly and people get used to each other.

I grew up in Hong Kong and now I live in London, so I have been at the centre of the melting pot all my life.

In other words, I know what I'm talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 03:15 PM

Excuse me asking but has this thread been taken over by North Americans talking rubbish? Is this what you wanted to achieve by closing down the Folk Against Fascism thread, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 02:40 PM

Okay...

But which rabbits?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 02:12 PM

Nope. For the UK's difficulties. And Canada's and the US's, et.al.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:52 PM

For what? The missing "cawwots"?

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:46 PM

I still think the rabbits should be blamed.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:44 PM

You always get a reactionary backlash when there's a big influx of immigrants into a society. Look at what happened in North America when the Irish were pouring in during the potatoe famine. They were caricatured as apes in American newspapers, and were often beaten up and terrorized by "Native American" gangs, as shown in the movie "Gangs of New York". The Irish reacted by forming their own violent gangs.

And look at what's happening in the USA right now with concerns about the large numbers of Hispanics who are coming into the USA.

Large scale immigration always provides an opportunity for reactionaries and extremists to get the native population in a country stirred up against foreigners...for the usual simple reasons: they feel that their jobs and their culture are being threatened.

So, yes, as long as immigration levels to the UK stay high, the BNP will profit by getting more support from native Britons who are afraid of change.

****

The one thing that could cure all this divisive nonsense would be if:

- Economic advantages and social freedoms were fairly much equalized all around the globe...and then people wouldn't feel the pressing NEED to emigrate to other countries, would they?

They'd mostly be quite happy to stay where they were.

This, however, would require the human race to get way beyond their present state of self-aggrandizing and competitive awareness...needless to say. ;-)

I don't expect it to happen anytime soon. But that doesn't mean it can never happen. I think the ultimate destiny of this planet has to be a unified and prosperous human society....or a complete collapse of human civilization and a massive die-off of our species.

Either way, the planet will definitely survive, but we may not. I hope humanity makes the intelligent choice between those alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 01:26 PM

The one truth in it all, however, is the larger the immigrant community becomes, the numbers of native Brits against them will grow. So time is on the side of the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:15 AM

Peace. "Tell the lie often enough and people start to accept it as fact" From Polish air force pilots to the "truth" about the Stephen Lawrence murder, to holocaust denial, to massive distortions of just about everything it says in the Koran, to phoney biologists and phoney reverends, the BNP couldn't tell the truth if someone twisted its arm up its back. No, the world's heaviest tome isn't the Encyclopaedia Brittanica. It's the list of lies which the BNP has tried to foist on the British public.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Emma B
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 11:04 AM

A party of convictions

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:21 AM

Of course, the BNP has learned well from Hitler's group. Tell the lie often enough and people start to accept it as fact. It would be neat to have the BNP membership and cross-reference the names to criminal records. And publish that, lots. I'm working on that now.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:16 AM

I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 10:08 AM

Peace. Quite possibly. But don't forget that people are apt to accuse us of talking the problem up. If the election results are anything to go by, we're doing quite opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:47 AM

LH says he posted that remark as a joke, fyi.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 26 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM

Little Hawk. "One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!"

They haven't gained votes. That's the whole point. In the EU elections, the BNP vote actually declined. In the Norwich north by-election, their loony christian candidate polled less than 3% of the votes. This despite the fact that we're in a very bad recession, there is massive disenchantment with the centre parties, and there is a lot of very understandable concern about British jobs going to foreign workers.

All these are things which the far right has traditionally festered on. Yet the electorate continues to reject the BNP. Why? One obvious answer is that anti-fascists continue to expose the BNP for the nazi scum that they are.

(And just in case anyone misunderstands me, I don't buy into that argument about foreign workers destroying British jobs. Foreign workers generate jobs and they are an asset to the economy. One day, when the world has grown up a little, and national boundaries have been shown up for the shibboleths they really are, there will be peace in the world, and people will be able to move wherever they want to move.)

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 10:08 PM

I get frustrated with the institutions, too. Trouble is, it seems the same with every institution. It's the idiots who get the power. I think the world is divided into two kinds of people - those who believe in structure and doctrines and ideologies and rules, and those who believe in people and in common sense. You can guess what kind I class the BNP in. For them, ideology is all-important. People aren't.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 08:11 PM

"So, Riginslinger, how is your generalization about religious people any different from the anti-immigrant generalizations coming from the BNP?"

            I guess I wasn't thinking about religious people as much as religious dogma and institutions. I would agree, it's better to avoid generalizations.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:35 PM

My apologies. Some idiot was thinking that way recently and I was concerned it was spreading.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 06:31 PM

I was joking.

Anyway, there are a great many things that are beneath my abilities. Wrestling alligators, for example. I'm no good at all when it comes to that. Nor can I bench press 150 pounds or play the banjo half decently.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:54 PM

"One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!"

Ten bucks says that's bull, LH. People here stop posting and that ten bucks says "GUESTS" from the BNP come 'round and keep refreshing the thread. That kind of reasoning is waaaay beneath your abilities, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM

So, Riginslinger, how is your generalization about religious people any different from the anti-immigrant generalizations coming from the BNP? When you make wide-reaching statements against the members of any group, where's the justice in that?

Certainly, what you say can apply to some religious people - and believe it or not, some non-religious people use those same tactics of segregation and division.

In opposing bigotry, we must be careful not to become bigots ourselves.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:22 PM

One disturbing thought occurs to me. The BNP may have gained more votes recently because people on this forum are bellyaching about them so much that it has greatly increased their public profile by gaining them much extra attention!

Be afraid. Be very afraid. They are about to take over your entire folk tradition. Check the back of every bodhran for those little swastika markings and prepare to fight them on the beaches, in the wardrobes, on the street, and in the loo!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 04:16 PM

"Riginslinger, I think you're letting your bigotry show."

          Not bigotry at all, just years and years of observation!

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 03:21 PM

Religion has been used as an excuse for many totalitarian groups. That isn't religion. That's fanatacism. Perversions ofered by people who wish to speak on behalf of God are many, but really they vary only in content, and then only slightly. We see this today with all ultra-orthodox groups, be they BNP, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

I am reminded of Dylan's

"God said to Abraham kill me a son
Abe said man you must be putting me on
God said no, Abe said what?
God said you can do anything you want Abe, but
The next time you see me coming you better run
God just pointed with his gun and said
That way down highway fifty-one"

Not believing in God is a help in this case.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:22 PM

Riginslinger says:

Isn't that (segregation and division) what religion is all about?

It may be a bit off the topic, but I can't let this go by. Riginslinger, I think you're letting your bigotry show. There are plenty of religious people who are fundamentally opposed to segregation and division - so what you say is a cheap shot.

Racists have long used religion as a rationalization of their racism. For that matter, all sorts of oppressors have twisted religion to rationalize their oppression. But at its core, religious belief is altruistic, and is at its essence opposed to oppression. If the BPN uses religion, it is a perversion of religion.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 02:08 PM

Emma B. Re. your link to the news report on Robert West. Note the mysoginistic/chauvinistic manner in which he dismisses the idea of women working. His views are a virtual echo of third reich policy towards women.

"He polled 941 votes representing 2.74% of the total votes cast" It's pretty obvious that the BNP aren't gaining votes, and that their constitutional facade isn't impressing anyone. West's showing in Norwich in fact showed him to be nothing more than one of the monster raving loony fringe candidates.

This should be good news, indeed it is. However, it's only a matter of time before Griffin and Co realise they're not going to get anywhere via the democratic process. That I think is when they'll take the fight back out onto the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 12:24 PM

"And before any one goes off spouting about "If you do not vote you do not have a say?

Well clearly that is Bollocks.
I put it to you.
Non voters say a hell of a lot." Pierre le Chapeau

Actually, 'Peter the Hat' non-voters say nothing whatsoever! If you don't vote you not only have no say but you also reveal yourself to be a lazy, ignorant fool. The ONLY chance that you have to alter things in this country is through the ballot box. The stupid Labour non-voters in the NW and Humberside let the BNP in and their equally stupid brothers and sisters in Norwich have just let the Tories in. A 'non-vote' is usually a vote for the Right. If you're too idle, apathetic and selfish to engage in the political process you will be to blame when the country slips further and further rightward. Not voting will merely create a 'power vacuum' which will be filled by some very unsavoury people.

Subject: RE: BS: So why has the BNP gained votes?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jul 09 - 11:33 AM

"I am outraged that the BNP and its allies are using Christianity to further their agenda of segregation and division."


            Isn't that what religion is all about?