BS: US Health Care Reform

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:27 AM

I have been watching the reports coming out of America with my Jaw on the floor.

The idea that the NHS is anything less than superb and a national treasure in the UK is seen as utterly absurd over here.

I've been able to rely on the NHS to send a doctor to my home when my daughter was ill, to operate on me within 24 hours when I had an accident that needed urgent attention, and to treat me for whatever other ailments I've suffered from over the years.

Here we take it for granted.

I'm sick - I go see my GP ... for free.

He prescribes medicine or hospital care and I get seen and given first classs treatment and have my problems sorted.

every few months there is a story in the news about somebody who has an unacceptable experience.

When this happens, it gets in the news because it is in the public interest because it is our health service and it is accountable to us.

And to clarify a key point, I live in south east London in the inner city where the NHS is at its busiest and most sretched.

The doctors and nurses are fantastic and I am grateful that I don't live in a country like America where those with more money than sense believe it is right to let those who can't afford health care die or go bankrupt.

The only lies being told in America right now are the lies being told to the American Public about the NHS and similar systems around the world.

Denying health care to those who can't aford it is nothing short of a crime.

Those who are resisting health care reform are criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:44 AM

It would be interesting to know how malpractice is treated in the UK and Canada. That seems to be a big stumbling block in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:41 AM

Thanks for the insights on the NHS. Michael Moore had nice things to say about the UK system in "Sicko." Its nice to see that confirmed. The statement below needs some clarification. Indeed it did get some in Obama's Wednesday evening speech.

"The only lies being told in America right now are the lies being told to the American Public about the NHS and similar systems around the world."

Obama, attacked three major lies about the proposed health reforms, "death panels would be created", "abortions would be paid for." and "The health care of illegal aliens would be subsidized.

Note that each of the above are specifically tailored lies meant to appeal to the fears and prejudices of major Republican voter blocks.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:51 AM

Good points, Jack. The fact is, they are telling any lie at all which they think some people in America might be ignorant or foolish enough to believe. He who controls the flow of information moulds public opinion. This is true in any country. So all you need to take a country down the road to corruption and madness is a well-controlled and financially manipulated media in the hands of a few very unscrupulous and wealthy men.

What people hear every day on their radio or TV is exactly what most of them end up believing.

That was one of the key points of the book "1984".

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:52 AM

Malpractice is a Republican talking point, little else. For one thing, tort law is a state issue. It is interesting that the very people who will scream "states rights" in issues where it is convenient to them, issues like same sex marriage and abortion, want to federalize tort law for doctors. On the other hand North Carolina has one of the strictest set of laws against "frivolous law suits" and such in the USA and since those laws have been enacted, medical costs have not decreased substantially. In fact they have risen at the same rate as those states without such laws.

As Republicans continue to insist on such impractical and ill-informed positions I suggest that they be obliged to wear sandwich boards, and in chronic cases, facial tattoos, saying factually challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:56 AM

Its not quite "1984" here, not yet. At least the President and some others have the means to stand up and say the truth. But Fox News, insane politicians, and the Radio squawkers are, to say the least, undermining the ideal of a well informed electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:13 AM

Yes, and the thing is...people usually listen to whichever media outlet shores up and supports their already existing set of beliefs and prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:37 AM

>tort law is a state issue<

A point I've avoided since Obama would call me right-wing is that all of this concerns state issues but for the employer-based coverage link, which has prevented most states from enacting substantial protections. That's another reason employers, insurers and employee-benefits companies don't want you to mess with it (and Wyden-Bennet kept it all federal and preserved those federal protections.)

It's moot, though, in the modern world.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:52 AM

Heric,

Obama certainly would not call you a "right-wing" for expressing such an opinion.

Also surely all of the "states rights" ground to be broken in the current proposals would have been broken and indeed, without universal single payer, far surpassed already with Medicare.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:59 AM

The Great Game is Greater than you are likely aware. That's why Obama, wisely or unwisely, has chosen not to hit it head-on, and why he knocked the employer-based reform out of the park in his speech by labelling "right-wing," rather than targeting the obvious right wing objectors and insulting them directly. The modern "right wing" (as in psuedo-fascists) are entirely in agreement with that avoidance. Libertarians, if they count as "right-wing," would not be.

Don't get me wrong, I support "the Obama plan" (which I define as the anticpated final iteration of HR 3200.) Not that my Congressman cares what I think. I just had unrealistic expectations growing. A naive audacity of hope spinnng out of control. I had hoped for creativity with backbone. Yes, I think HR 3200 is ineffectual, and, in fact, stupid, but no worse than the status quo. It's better in that it will expand coverage availability and they will be measuring and focused on that goal, unlike the past. But HR 3200 is really just the forward momentum of the federal bureaucracy amidst the status quo snafu.

Medicare benefits will be diminished gradually, physician independence and patient autonomy will be negatively impacted somewhat (whcih point is where WHO DOES credit the US with world superiority), but that was an inevitable result of spiralling costs.

It is what it is and probably as it must be - inexorable progress.

Good luck to us all.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 12:03 PM

No, you're right Jack. I'm just still smarting from him labelling the dismantling of the employer-based system as "right wing."

Destroying federal jurisdiction over health care in the non-Medicare markets probably does, however, qualify as "right wing." I wouldn't support it, and that's why I avoided mentioning the subject, long before his speech.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 12:08 PM

I mean I wouldn't support it as an obstacle to nationwide reform.

It IS the status quo that states control insurance UNLESS it is employer-provided.

Six or seven years ago someone leaked a video of a training session being given by an Aetna executive to Aetna claims processors in Alaska. He unabashedly explained how to treat the employer-covered beneficiaries more callously than those with individual coverage governed by state insurance protections.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 12:52 PM

"Malpractice is a Republican talking point, little else."

          Okay, say I'm a Canadian national, and I go in for a colonoscopy and they amputate my right leg below the knee. What recourse do I have?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

A job training program, I think. Free wheelchair. What do you want?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 01:26 PM

well ... if your a canadian national you'll have to wait in line for about (at least) 4-5 months for a colonoscophy ... and maybe in that time frame you might develop gangrene in your right foot. The symptoms in your colon and gangrene caused by by all the junk donuts and bad coffee consumed over one's live time at Tim Horton's.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM

Helpful - Very Helpful!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 01:58 PM

I hope that comment about the colonoscopy was tongue in cheek, because my father-in-law, who is a Canadian national, sure didn't have to wait several months for his colonoscopy. He waited pretty much the same amount of time as JtS did when he got his here in the US (way back when he had insurance), which was around two or three weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 02:10 PM

You don't often see colonoscopy and tongue in the same sentence, but I'm sure it was.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 02:11 PM

Well, it's at least 5 months here in Saint John. In fact a friend of mine is currently going into 6 months of waiting now. My sister and cousin waited around 4 months in Toronto. Ann (my wife waited a month ... but then she was bumped up to the front of the line after being rushed to the hospital with internal bleeding). The cause of her issue was determined to be the result of being perscribed aspirin and Plavex (a rather dangerous mixture, btw).

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 02:15 PM

Rig:

What were you doing with your right leg up to the knee up your ass in the first place? Isn't that a far-fetched example? And are you sure it was your knee and not your, um, neck?



A

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 02:32 PM

JtS has been waiting years for his next one. He's overdue by three of four years, and he may have to wait until he's 65 (14 years from now), when he qualifies for medicare if we don't get major health care reform before then.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 02:41 PM

I'm certainly not debunking medicare .... what we have up here is certainly better than what you have down there, but it does have it's frustrations.

I hope you do get some sort of solution before long, the whole question of it is inconceivable to me .... tell JtS to hang in there.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 02:58 PM

By the way, the health insurer horror anecdotes that Obama relates all arise under employer-provided insurance. States do not allow these things to happen to their citizens when they have any say in the matter. So, having enlisted or having been recruited to support and perpetuate that same inequitable situation, when he grabs the sound bite "hold insurers accountable," he is (and almost all other Congresspersons and Senators are) being disingenuous in the extreme.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 04:12 PM

"And are you sure it was your knee and not your, um, neck?"

             Which ever is was, Amos, if I'd been in Canada--the way things sound--I would have waited so long it wouldn't have mattered anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 04:50 PM

What a Canadian does in the case of malpractive, Rig, is the same thing an American does. He launches legal action against the doctor and seeks compensation. This does not mean he's suing the government. He's not. He's suing the doctor responsible for the malpractice (and possibly the hospital). The only part the government plays in the person's treatment at all is that they pay the medical practitioner after treatment is given. They handle the billing for the medical work. Period. The medical staff are the ones who must defend themselves in a malpractice suit, and the government does not assist them in doing so.

There IS no practical difference, as far as I can see, in a case of a malpractice suit in Canada or in the USA. It's up to the courts to decide in favor of the patient or the doctor.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:01 PM

It sounds like there's a huge difference in wait times from one province to the next. My father-in-law currently lives in Newfoundland and has absolutely no complaints about the care he gets there. He was living in Ontario when he had the colonoscopy I referenced above. My mother-in-law lives in Ontario and she loves the care she gets there and as her rant indicated, she never has to wait for care.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:02 PM

And here's the difference between waiting for treatment in Canada or the USA, Rig.

In the USA, if you are really RICH you get treatment much faster than other people do and it's much better their is...while if you're poor, you probably don't get it at all, and if you're somewhere in the middle then it may bankrupt you.

In Canada everyone gets treatment exactly the same way at the same level of service, no citizen or permanent resident is excepted or denied, it's usually quite prompt and good treatment, and a millionaire receives exactly the same level of treatment that a middle class person or a poor person receives.

EQUALITY of medical care. That's democracy. Same as equality before the law. It's a basic human right, and to deny it is a CRIME.

You don't live in a democracy, Rig, you live in an elitist criminal oligarchy that just pretends to be a democracy. (when it comes to providing medical care for its public, that is)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:03 PM

for the record, here in the US, I've been waiting since early August for an appointment for an examination in order to schedule a colonoscopy.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:12 PM

One major problem here in Canada is a shortage of Doctors and nurses. If and when the U.S. decides to take on Health care (administered by the gov't) you will in all likelihood experience the same issue. And with the shortage you will see lineups for specialized care ... if not a wait time to see your family doctor (if you are lucky to have one).

It's a payoff ... but then you will not "have to sell the farm", in the event of having a major illness.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:30 PM

More on Congressman Joe Wilson, Republican, South Carolina, who yelled "You Lie!" during President Obama's speech to Congress:

Friday, September 11, 2009
Wilson in Trouble

"In a matter of seconds Wednesday night Joe Wilson went from being pretty safe for reelection to one of the most vulnerable Republican incumbents in the country.

Wilson trails Democratic challenger Rob Miller 44-43 in a PPP survey conducted Thursday night and Friday morning. Last year Wilson defeated Miller 54-46.

62% of voters in SC-2 disapprove of Wilson's actions while just 29% think they were ok. By a 48-41 margin Republicans think what he did was fine, but independents are opposed to it by a 66/25 margin and Democrats are 84/10.

While there is a pretty strong consensus among respondents that the way Wilson expressed his opinion is inappropriate, they are almost evenly divided about whether the substance of his comment was correct. 42% think that Obama was lying when he said illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered by his health care plans, while 46% think he was telling the truth.

Overall 49% of voters say they are less likely to vote for Wilson in the future because he called Obama a liar, while 35% say they are more likely to do so. 56% of Republicans say that Wilson's calling out the President makes them more likely to support him."

http://publicpolicypolling.blogspot.com/2009/09/wilson-in-trouble.html



-snip-

And reports are that Rob Miller, a Iraqi veteran and Wilson's Democratic opponent in the 2010 election has received more than $750,000 dollars in donations in the 2 days since Wilson's "You Lie!" outburst. In the same time period, Wilson received around $200,000 in donations from his supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 05:37 PM

For the benefit of the dedicated Yank-bashers out there, I'd like to repeat the request made by the originator of this thread:

This thread is dedicated to Americans who want to study the issues attendant to "health care reform" in the United States.

I respectfully request that foreigners continue to provide their thoughts on the relative merits of their own systems to existing threads dedicated to that subject. I suggest that Americans interested in positive change resist responding to input from people who do not understand our system or the substantive issues to be addressed. This is complex subject matter and difficult enough even for us to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:16 PM

All true art, but for one thing.

Americans are being misinformed about the alternatives.

for example the NHS.

If you want to make a fair judgement then you need to know that.

Right now a lot of your politicians are trying to convince you that creating a safety net for the most vulneravle in society is somehow a threat to your way of life.

The reasons and examples they are giving are not true.

This is useful for you to know as it leaves you with the question "then why the opposition."

I would venture to suggest that those who oppose it are greedy and don't want to have to live up to their responsibilities.

I would also venture to suggest that many of Obama's opponents just don't like being talked down to by a black guy.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:38 PM

Couple of straw-men lurking here...

1. Malpractice law suits: Pure Republican bullsh*t... Here we are spending 17% of our GNP and don't rank in the top 20 in either life expectancy or infant mortality... One would think that if doctors are all that sacred of being sued then these numbers wouldn't be this shockingly lousy...

2. Immigration: Yeah, the Repubs are now ready to talk immigartion... Where were they when their own President wanted to talk it??? Hmmmmmm????

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:40 PM

To lox:

>those who oppose it are greedy and don't want to have to live up to their responsibilities.<

This is (largely) true for a great many, I think. It is disappointing to see the great bulk of the debate addressing "what's in it for me" and "Here's what's in it for you." That applies to SO many identifiable groups of every stripe and interest.

As of yesterday, newspapers were saying the minimal public option idea may have to go down in flames because people are realizing "it may raise some employee premiums." Well, duh.

The problem in discussions, though, is that the "it" (in "oppose it") is ever changing and very, very different than an NHS or single payer function, and the discussion gets complicated as well given that the public assistance mechanism(s) currently exist as a very large but unsatisfactory "it."

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:49 PM

On the subject of wait times for colonoscopies, JtS told me that it's only routine colonoscipies that people have to wait for. He said that if there are any irregularities that show up in a medical examination, that person gets bumped closer to the front of the line, as was also noted by another poster above.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:56 PM

Also, Lox: I think the Democratic protagonists failed to emphasize that aspect from the start and keep it in focus. Instead they said "We're going to this for you! And this! And this! And this!

I've been waiting for more than a half century for a colonoscopy but that's patient autonomy for you.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 07:58 PM

It's quite right that we outsiders should refrain from diverting discussion here into the kind of reforms that aren't on the agenda in the states (more's the pity). After all, that's what those opposed to any significant change have managed to do with some success.

But it's not accurate to use the term "Yank bashers" of those who want to see the reforms backed by the President, and by a majority oif American win the day.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 08:15 PM

Carol ... I agree with what jts told you ... examples i mentioned, such as my wife being bumped to the front of the line (still it took a little under a month), and the others I mentioned are for routine colonoscipies.

National Health care provides for accessible medical treatment for all the citizens, a wonderful process for any civilized nation ... but, the downside is, this increases the demand for medical personnel ... since the government allocates the cost, they also control the number of doctors to be 'on the payroll' .... thus an economic threshold for the number of doctors allocated limits their accessibility. One solution is to lower the standard for those that graduate from medical schools .... or lower the expectation for doctors graduating on a high $dollar$ value for their services. But, since Canada and the U.S. have a capitalist system based on a worker's value I can never see doctors going into the profession with moral, humane values foremost in their mind.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:06 PM

Heric - I fear as well that on this issue Obama's usual tactic of patience, endurance and diplomacy is turning into a form of appeasement.

Sometimes you have to be a man about things and on this issue Obama needs to be not only clearer but more assertive and gutsy.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Lox
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:19 PM

"thus an economic threshold for the number of doctors allocated limits their accessibility"

"One solution is to lower the standard for those that graduate from medical schools"


Can you provide evidence of the above in an existing NHS service?

Becase I I have attested, I have never known any lack of accessibility in th UK and I've lived all over.


"or lower the expectation for doctors graduating on a high $dollar$ value for their services"


Can you explain what this means?


"since Canada and the U.S. have a capitalist system based on a worker's value I can never see doctors going into the profession with moral, humane values foremost in their mind."


Doctors in the UK, USA and canada all do it for the same reason ... because its a good career! Doctors in the UK aren't doing it for nothing - they earn over £100,000 year at least - NHS or not.

Besides which the private option still exists here so even with an NHS it doesn't mean that we live in any kind of totalitarian regime.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:31 PM

OK, so now a guy from the UK is bashing one from Canada, claiming he knows nothing about living in a NHS system.   Another formerly interesting thread goes down the drain. Goodby, all.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:40 PM

For the benefit of the dedicated Yank-bashers out there...

I havent noticed any, Art. There have been several bullshit-bashers from across the pond, however....

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 09:46 PM

The thing that I find really interesting, and that the American media is apparently not bothering to tell most Americans about is:

Canada spends 10% of its yearly budget on health care and manages with that 10% to provide free health care for all Canadians.

The USA spends 17% of its yearly budget on health care and cannot do anything even approaching that and has an enormous number of Americans with NO health insurance or free coverage either.

Amazing isn't it?

All you would have to do to save a tremendous amount of USA tax money is completely abolish your present system in the USA and copy the Canadian system in every way. You would save 7% of the USA's yearly budget for other things!

I gather the Republicans don't know this. ;-) Or they're pretending they don't, anyway. I think the Democrats are also pretending they don't know it. (and I mean at the top party level when I say that, I don't mean the individual people on this forum)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:01 PM

Joe Wilson has raised more the $700,000.00 since he "You Lie" incident. He's on his way to re-election.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:12 PM

Docotor's in Canada are basically civil servants ... i.e. employees of the government which has a limited budget to spend on them .... the demand for doctors exceeds the the quantity available. I cannot answer for Britain's solution to this ... maybe some catter from Britain can.

As to lower the $dollar$ expectation ... you have answered that question ... it is a rewarding $career$ ... unlike Cuba where doctors go into the profession for services of humanity as opposed to a rewarding $career$ ... a doctor's wages there are equivalent to a government clerk's ... I should add the standard of Cuba's doctor's graduating from their medical schools and going into the profession is very high.

The province in which I live, New Brunswick, Doctor's have one of the highest (doctor) salaries in Canada ... a few years ago the province had to do this to lure doctors to the province .... this spring the provincial government imposed a salary freeze ... doctor's have now taken this to court ... there is a serious shortage of physician's here ... so much so it is pretty well impossible for someone moving to the province to obtain a family physician. One must go to a local clinic.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:31 PM

I should add ... Since New Brunswick pays a considerable high salary to it's physicians, than the rest of Canada ... it still has a difficult time attracting doctors ... reason being, there are stringent bureaucratic policies controlling what a doctor can, and cannot do.

The wage freeze imposed on physician's salaries is for 5 years

I know this since a good friend of mine is a pathologist. He's a rarity since he came here from the U.S. ... he makes less, puts up with the bureaucracy, but likes our health care system ... he could make more in the U.S. but likes the trade off here much more.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:33 PM

Talking about the NHS and the system of health care in Canada and comparing how they work is interesting - but, as heric has pointed out, it just ain't relevant to the current debate/rough-house in the USA, which is what this thread wasintended to be about. It belongs in another thread. Natural drift in a thread is fair enough, but hi-jacking it so that the discussion gets aborted is something else.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: number 6
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 10:40 PM

oh



ok



my apologies

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:46 PM

"As matters now stand, the insurance companies claim $450 billion a year of our health-care dollars."

It's Simple: Medicare for All

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 11:59 PM

And why the hell not? You all should now why by now.

Because we've lost.

We're being taught there is no such thing as change we can believe in.

There is only the inexorable march of bureaucracy and "significant political resistance."

Look carefully.