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BS: US Health Care Reform
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM Wouldn't it be something if the health care reform, instead of helping the uninsured (and even the insured) in the US, just ended up creating a whole bunch of health care refugees who fled the country because of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Stringsinger Date: 07 Oct 09 - 08:51 PM When you speak of reform, it has to be done large. When the Insurance Mafia owns the country, then U.S. citizens have to be shaken out of their sleep. The U.S. is nine years into a failed war which has not made our country more safe. It's supporting fraudulent elections and warlords. The U.S. is revisiting the fiasco in Vietnam. How can you expect a public that has been so drugged by the media, the lobbyists, bankers and military to resolve the issue of health care? Obama is throwing the American people crumbs by a watered-down bill using a "public option" and the citizens are allowing this to happen as they also allow their tax dollars to be spent on a futile nine year fiasco. This, while the insurance racketeers are paying for elections. The educational system in the U.S. is being corrupted by re-writing text books by the likes of Bill Bennett and Neil Bush in a privatized manner gutting the ideals of Thomas Jefferson for a public education. If the American people were truly responsible, they wouldn't be supporting unscrupulous insurance companies, banking institutions, military hoodwinking by bloody generals, gutting public education but would be out in the streets demanding accountability. For this, though, you would have to have democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 09 - 12:44 AM Nice rant, Keith! |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Azizi Date: 08 Oct 09 - 04:22 PM "Two major powerbrokers on the left...are encouraging a Senate strategy in which the leadership would revoke chairmanships and other leadership positions from any Democrat who sides with a Republican filibuster to block a vote on health reform." Since then, thousands of progressives have signed the Progressive Change Campaign Committee's newpetition to Senate Leader Harry Reid saying: "Any Democratic senators who support a Republican attempt to block a vote on health care reform should be stripped of their leadership titles. Americans deserve a clean up-or-down vote on health care." Sign here. http://boldprogressives.org/majorityvote/p-dkos What does this proposal mean? In general, it means Democrats need to be Democrats! Republicans are planning to use the Senate "filibuster" procedure to block a vote on health care reform. But if all Senate Democrats stick together, a clean up-or-down vote will take place. This means 51 votes -- not "60 votes" -- would be needed to pass reform. And winning a public health insurance option would be very likely. Together, we can make that happen. Which senators would feel pressure from this proposal? All the senators who are siding with the insurance companies and opposing the public option: Max Baucus (D-MT), Kent Conrad (D-ND), Joe Lieberman (I-CT), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Blanche Lincoln (D-AR), and Mary Landrieu (D-LA) are some examples. Let's send a clear message: It's not OK for Democratic senators to join with Republicans to block a vote on health care. Period. Please sign the petition." * more than 20,000 from Thousands Pressure Harry Reid After Maddow's Report by AdamGreen Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 09:49:25 AM PDT |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: dick greenhaus Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:42 PM Isn't there something subversive about passing legislation by a simple majority? Should investigate that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: beardedbruce Date: 08 Oct 09 - 05:46 PM Great precedent for when the Republicans get back in the majority, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: dick greenhaus Date: 08 Oct 09 - 10:51 PM They already figured that one out---the GOP invoked reconciliation on each of W's tax cuts for the rich. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: beardedbruce Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:16 PM So, if the Repubs did it it MUST be OK, right??? I'll remember you implied that, after the next election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 09 - 11:18 PM Tell us, then. Is it ok for the Republicans to do it or not? Was it ok when they did it during the GW Bush administration? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:52 AM GuestTIA: I watched the video. What are you looking for? Want me to write that I could care less? That's obviously what you expect. The person depicted in the video is just one of thousands of people like her who have terrible problems and seemingly no way of solving them. Do I have sympathy for her? Of course! Only a heartless, non-caring individual would not. However, the Bill that will soon be voted on in the congress will demolish my current health care program. Do you feel badly about that? I suspect you could care less. The majority of the funding for the proposed program will come from cuts from Medicare Advantage which provides my coverage. The Democrats plan is going to adversely affect millions of elderly people who have paid into Social Security during their entire working years so that the current administration can ensure election in the next presidential campaign. And I assume you are one of those who believe that us old timers should celebrate. The Democrats will get some sort of health care Bill passed, but it's not going to do what Obama promised. Nothing new about that though. His promises are "horse pucky" anyway. It won't provide coverage to everybody but it might be enough to get the Democrats re-elected. But on the other hand ...it might not. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Greg F. Date: 09 Oct 09 - 09:25 AM the Bill that will soon be voted on in the congress will demolish my current health care program... Sigh. No it will not. (No facts need apply.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: beardedbruce Date: 09 Oct 09 - 12:56 PM CarolC, No, in my opinion it was wrong then, and wrong now. But who here thinks it is wrong NOW besides me? Only when Bush does something is it wrong- when Obama or the Democrats do the same thing I hear only cheers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Oct 09 - 01:08 PM The average person cheers automatically whenever his home team scores a goal, BB...regardless of how the goal was scored. He groans when the opposing team scores a goal, and he looks for ways to call it "cheating" and disallow the goal if he can find any possible way to do it. That's true in hockey and it's true in politics. And that is why there's so much hypocrisy found among sports fans and partisan minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: dick greenhaus Date: 09 Oct 09 - 01:12 PM BB- I think that the threat of filibuster to block legislation is wrong, no matter who makes that threat. An insistence of a 60% vote to pass anythung is a sure guarantee of nothing being passed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM Perhaps, dick. But it might eventually encourage politicians to start seeking workable compromises with one another rather than fighting with each other like two gangs of schoolboys on a vacant lot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: beardedbruce Date: 09 Oct 09 - 01:32 PM So, if more than 40% feel a bill is bad, it should still be passed? And you will accept that when the Republicans get back in the majority next election??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM ". . . the Bill that will soon be voted on in the congress will demolish my current health care program." Not so, Doug. You're spending too much time listening to the flood of disinformation spewed forth by the Fox News bunch. What is it you keep saying about "The sky is falling?" Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 09 Oct 09 - 02:31 PM Don: I suspect you get most of your news from MSNBC and CNN, New York Times or some other liberal medias outlet, so it is understandable why you are not aware that the Baucus Bill will eviscerate Medicare Advantage. No way can congress cut Medicare's budget by $404 billion without adversely affecting benefits. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 09 - 03:53 PM Doug, I get my news from much wider sources than the ones you mention, including overseas sources (i.e. the health care systems other advanced countries have and how well they work, then compare them with our own "system" or lack thereof). I understand that you believe any "news source" to the left of Bill O'Reilly is a propaganda organ for a socialist state, but be that as it may. . . . I'm not in favor of the Baucus bill. It's deeply flawed. In fact, this country will not have a decent national health care system until we get the health insurance companies completely out of it. Most of the plans offered so far are trying to keep the insurance companies at the table, and that's like trying to set up a lean and mean military by letting defense contractors dictate what the military has to have. The goal of the American health care system as it now stands is not the health of the country's citizens, it's the profit of the health insurance companies. That's why it's so ridiculously expensive and inefficient, and why only the wealthy can afford to get sick. The only sub-systems this country has that work anywhere near well and with any measure of efficiency are the government run ones, like Medicare. But even they pale compared to the systems that some countries have. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,TIA Date: 09 Oct 09 - 04:06 PM DougR, Believe it or not, I care deeply about oldsters. Very nearly am one myself. And, I do appreciate that you are contributing to this discussion. But you have been misinformed. There are people intentionally trying to scare you, and it is working. You are arguing against your very own principles, and you don't realize it. Paul Krugman said it very well last week: snip "Now, it's understandable that many Republicans oppose Democratic plans to extend insurance coverage — just as most Democrats opposed President Bush's attempt to convert Social Security into a sort of giant 401(k). The two parties do, after all, have different philosophies about the appropriate role of government. But the tactics of the two parties have been different. In 2005, when Democrats campaigned against Social Security privatization, their arguments were consistent with their underlying ideology: they argued that replacing guaranteed benefits with private accounts would expose retirees to too much risk. The Republican campaign against health care reform, by contrast, has shown no such consistency. For the main G.O.P. line of attack is the claim — based mainly on lies about death panels and so on — that reform will undermine Medicare. And this line of attack is utterly at odds both with the party's traditions and with what conservatives claim to believe. ***Think about just how bizarre it is for Republicans to position themselves as the defenders of unrestricted Medicare spending. First of all, the modern G.O.P. considers itself the party of Ronald Reagan — and Reagan was a fierce opponent of Medicare's creation, warning that it would destroy American freedom. (Honest.) In the 1990s, Newt Gingrich tried to force drastic cuts in Medicare financing. And in recent years, Republicans have repeatedly decried the growth in entitlement spending — growth that is largely driven by rising health care costs.*** But the Obama administration's plan to expand coverage relies in part on savings from Medicare. And since the G.O.P. opposes anything that might be good for Mr. Obama, it has become the passionate defender of ineffective medical procedures and overpayments to insurance companies. How did one of our great political parties become so ruthless, so willing to embrace scorched-earth tactics even if so doing undermines the ability of any future administration to govern?" snip ***emphasis by TIA*** |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 09 Oct 09 - 07:36 PM TIA: You offer as proof of the seriousness of your argument, Paul Krugman? That is as ludicrous as me providing you Rush Limbaugh as my voucher! The GOP hasn't really been invited to the "table" to try to find a reasonable compromise plan for overhauling health care. The Democrats won big in the 2008 election and are acting as stupidly as did the GOP when they replaced the Democrats in both houses of Congress in the mid-1990's. GOP members have offered suggestions for improvement of the current system: allowing citizens to purchase insurance across state lines which would create greater competition among the insurance companies is one of them, but the Democrats wouldn't hear of it. Tort reform? Perish the thought. Fix Medicare problems and stop the waste in that program and Medicaid before completely turning the current system upside down, but no, the Democrats wouldn't listen. So now they are going to be passing a Bill with perhaps one Republican voting with them. They will tout it as a bi-partisan bill because Senator Snow, who really is a Democrat anyway, voted with them. And will health care be made available to ALL Americans as a result of this Bill? Nope, it won't. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 09 Oct 09 - 07:55 PM The Democrats have bent over backwards trying to accommodate the wishes of Republicans to the point of making it unacceptable to a lot of the Democratic base, but the Republicans won't vote for any bill except one that the Republicans write themselves. They're not looking for compromise. They want everything entirely their way (as always). |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 09 Oct 09 - 10:09 PM By the way, Doug: for the record, when it comes to being concerned about health care for older folks -- I was 78 my last birthday. Can you match that? Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,TIA Date: 10 Oct 09 - 08:31 AM DougR- You prove Krugman's point when you simply dismiss his point based on politics. You and your ilk have abandoned reason, principle, and patriotism to embrace an irrational tribalism. Republican=good, all else=bad. I feel very sorry for you and yours, but you piss me off with the way you have poisoned our (admittedly flawed to begin with) system of government. Who told you that Republicans have "not been invited to the table"? That is a bald, thoroughly demonstrable lie. But your tribal leaders told you that, and you meekly follow and believe. What are your principles? Can you state them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Greg F. Date: 10 Oct 09 - 11:55 AM Doug abandoned reason LONG before the current health care dabate. Better not to engage him- its like debating with a Holocaust denier; just tends to legitimize the idiocy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 10 Oct 09 - 07:11 PM TIA: One of my policies is not to argue with rude people. (Greg F. excepted). Don: I am one year up on you. I'll be 80 come March, 2010. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 09 - 02:53 PM If we're in a competition for oldest age credentials here, then I'm at a severe disadvantage. I'm only 61! Barely out of diapers at this point.... ;-D Doug, the plans that are being seriously looked at in your Congress are not the plans you need, because they have been drawn up by the private health insurance companies...and they are the very people who are already ripping you off and denying your populace the equal and fair universal health system you need. I get total medical coverage for everything except dental care in Canada, Doug, and it costs me less than $1,000/year in income taxes. So does every other Canadian get that same level of service, and it's generally very good service too. The public here massively supports our universal single-payer health coverage, because we have direct experience of it. You don't. Your population is largely ignorant of what they have been denied, they are living on mythology, and your media and political parties (both of them) are trying very hard to keep them that way so that the health insurance industry can continue to grow fat off American society like a giant vulture gorging on roadkill. The fact that you apparently believe the propaganda you hear is disturbing, but it just goes to show that if lies are repeated often enough by any mass media, then most people will believe them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 11 Oct 09 - 03:42 PM "The person depicted in the video is just one of thousands of people like her who have terrible problems and seemingly no way of solving them. But that would not be the case for this lady in any other country in the world that wasn't on the breadline. That is not something for any American to be proud of, or satisfied with, or shrug off as if it were inevitable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: toadfrog Date: 11 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM For the record, my age is 71. I read a very relevant article in the Wall Street Journal last week, on medical care in Pennsylvania (by Thomas Burton). The State began collecting and publishing data on readmission rates, infection rates, and the like of Pennsylvania hospitals. Employers and unions who chose only the best-performing hospitals substantially reduced the cost of care. Hershey was able to reduce costs by 50%. Needless to say, the bad-performing hospitals forcefully insisted that the studies were misleading and unneeded. Insurance carriers refuse to turn over information on cost of care, but Hershey had enough clout to compare cost of care to performance on the services it purchased. It concluded that the correlation between price and quality of hospital care is zero. The moral is that the market system is completely worthless in giving people good health care, because the providers will not disclose any of the information needed to make a choice (unless the government makes them disclose it, and that would be "socialism.") Two or three years ago, I spent about ten days in a hospital. I was impressed. I had an individual room, the nurses were very nice, and there was a choice of channels on TV. All things considered, the food was astonishingly good. And a nice woman came around and solicited my opinion on the menu. But pleased as I was with all these things, they made me a little uneasy, because I suspected that somehow they were emphasizing the wrong things. Now I'm quite sure they were. Hospitals have every incentive to provide the best possible hotel services, because it attracts an upscale paying clientele. The only incentive to keep the infection rate down is the possibility of a lawsuit for medical malpractice. So much for the market system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: heric Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:08 PM But it is not anywhere close to a market system now. That's one part of where this entire debate has been disingenuously presented. People get their health insurance from their employer, with very little options to choose from. People worry about their out of pocket change, and little else. Employers pick the plans for reasons of their own. Plan insurers pick the providers for reasons of their own. No one who really would care has any reason to pay attention to quality and cost relationships. Wyden Bennett would have changed all that, drastically. We weren't allowed to discuss it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:36 PM Heric: But not everyone is employed. There are a lot of retirees here in the U.S. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: heric Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:36 PM I don't mean disingenuous by the detractors, I mean by the Democrats with Republican acquiesence, since neither of them will face down the lobbyists and tell the truth, even from the Presidential podium. I happen to agree with you that benefit reductions to Medicare will come under any of the three major proposals. (I just think that that's (a) a good thing, and (b) inevitable with or without these proposals.) (I also think they should have left Medicare out of it. If they wanted added complexity they should have addressed the reasons why employer provided insurance costs SO much more than privately purchased insurance, and how they are going to account for the enormous regional variability in premiums.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:09 PM It should be pointed out here that employer based insurance doesn't necessarily cost less for the insured. In fact, it usually costs a lot more. If it didn't, more people who are currently unable to afford insurance would be able to afford it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM From the California Nurses Association website: First-of-Its Kind Study: Medicare for All (Single-Payer) Reform Would Be Major Stimulus for Economy with 2.6 Million New Jobs, $317 Billion in Business Revenue, $100 Billion in Wages Establishing a national single-payer style healthcare reform system would provide a major stimulus for the U.S. economy by creating 2.6 million new jobs, and infusing $317 billion in new business and public revenues, with another $100 billion in wages into the U.S. economy, according to the findings of a groundbreaking study released today. www.calnurses.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:34 AM Stand up for a public health care option... http://countdowntohealthcare.com/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: heric Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:56 PM Only a public option can provide the desired safety net without huge holes. That was supposed to have been the starting point in all of this. (Insurers can not pay out funds they are not legally required to pay. It's illegal. "Hold insurers accountable" is so much nonsense.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:26 PM Well, Carol C., you are at least a step closer to your goal now that a majority of the Senate Finance Committee voted aye on the Baucus Bill. It has a long way to go yet though. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:36 PM The Baucus bill is not my goal. I don't support the Baucus bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:54 PM Doug doesn't seem to get that for some reason, Carol... I wouldn't support the Baucus Bill either, if I was an American. I would support what Dennis Kucinich has proposed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:56 PM I think the Democrats thought they had to get something out of committee, and that they intend to worm a public option into the bill through amendments from the floor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: GUEST,heric Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:57 PM The Democrats have to pass something, even gas, and call it a win. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:09 PM They pass gas on a regular basis. That's what makes the US Senate such an unpleasant place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:15 PM Well, at least something is out of Committee, thanks to the intrepid Republican Sen. Olympia Snowe. It's hard to believe that other Republicans are willing to sit this one out. Someone ought to cancel their health insurance for the pre-existing condition that they have been registered as Republicans! But that would be wrong... Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: pdq Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:01 PM I don't "do" YouTube but perhaps others would like to hear what Clinton's Secretary of Labor and current friend and advisor to Barack Obama has to say... about the elderly |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM Please show some evidence that he is an advisor to Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: DougR Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:25 PM Carol C: At long last we agree on something. I don't like the Baucus Bill either. Riginslinger is right. The Democrats are going to include the public option in the Bill the Democrat leadership is throwing together as I write. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: CarolC Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:46 PM If we get a public option, that will be a very good thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:28 AM It could be if they include stringent tort reform and include measures that public money would never be used to cover illegal aliens. |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Don Firth Date: 15 Oct 09 - 01:00 PM Illegal alien. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM That's not an illegal alien! It's an interplanetary ambassador. |
