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The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network

Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Sep 09 - 07:52 AM
Folkiedave 07 Sep 09 - 03:01 PM
Aeola 07 Sep 09 - 03:06 PM
Banjiman 07 Sep 09 - 03:17 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Sep 09 - 03:18 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Sep 09 - 03:24 PM
Folkiedave 07 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Sep 09 - 06:22 PM
The Sandman 07 Sep 09 - 06:32 PM
breezy 07 Sep 09 - 06:52 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 07 Sep 09 - 07:14 PM
Folkiedave 07 Sep 09 - 07:22 PM
Folkiedave 08 Sep 09 - 04:52 AM
Mr Happy 08 Sep 09 - 06:35 AM
breezy 08 Sep 09 - 06:46 AM
Folkiedave 08 Sep 09 - 04:50 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 08 Sep 09 - 04:55 PM
Anne Lister 08 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 07:51 AM
The Sandman 09 Sep 09 - 08:49 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 09:09 AM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 09:23 AM
Mr Happy 09 Sep 09 - 09:28 AM
Mr Happy 09 Sep 09 - 09:31 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 09:46 AM
Mr Happy 09 Sep 09 - 09:48 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 10:12 AM
Mr Happy 09 Sep 09 - 10:25 AM
The Sandman 09 Sep 09 - 10:46 AM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 10:56 AM
Mr Happy 09 Sep 09 - 10:59 AM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM
Leadfingers 09 Sep 09 - 11:27 AM
The Borchester Echo 09 Sep 09 - 11:52 AM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 12:14 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 12:45 PM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 12:55 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 01:09 PM
johncharles 09 Sep 09 - 01:27 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 01:58 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 02:00 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 02:40 PM
Dave Sutherland 09 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,Chris Murray 09 Sep 09 - 03:42 PM
BB 09 Sep 09 - 04:23 PM
The Borchester Echo 09 Sep 09 - 04:33 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 05:55 PM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 06:03 PM
Folkiedave 09 Sep 09 - 06:07 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 09 Sep 09 - 07:41 PM
Acorn4 09 Sep 09 - 08:00 PM
Cleverthreads (inactive) 09 Sep 09 - 08:03 PM
MGM·Lion 10 Sep 09 - 12:04 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Sep 09 - 12:35 AM
Folkiedave 10 Sep 09 - 03:34 AM
MGM·Lion 10 Sep 09 - 04:08 AM
Folkiedave 10 Sep 09 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Me 10 Sep 09 - 05:31 AM
The Sandman 10 Sep 09 - 05:53 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Sep 09 - 06:11 AM
Mr Happy 10 Sep 09 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Me 10 Sep 09 - 06:24 AM
Folkiedave 10 Sep 09 - 06:56 AM
Mr Happy 10 Sep 09 - 06:59 AM
Folkiedave 10 Sep 09 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Sep 09 - 07:22 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Sep 09 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 10 Sep 09 - 07:47 AM
Folkiedave 10 Sep 09 - 08:07 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Sep 09 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 10 Sep 09 - 10:57 AM
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Subject: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:52 AM

OK, I'm back on the internet and raging at the thought of Tom Bliss no longer singing, because he can't make a living from it.

This is the message I put on his thread a few moments ago:
    Tom, are you ready to do a Sinatra yet?

    You CANNOT stop singing your songs! Great to hear others singing them, but heck, you should be singing them too.

    To all you Festival Organisers out there, this man should be up there headlining your festivals!   

    Yeesh, I sooo need my own festival, my own radio station...AAARRRRGHHH!

    Tom, put your hands over your ears for a minute...

    Talented people such as Tom should not have to give up singing their songs because they can't make a living from them, it's just not right.

    He should be headlining Sidmouth and all the other major festivals, as should George Papavgeris...not in the backrooms, but on the main stages. I know talent when I see and hear it and both of these guys are swimming in it, as is Duncan McFarlane and his band....so it's time for the Old Boys Folk Network to get new blood into its Organisers and change a few of the Headlining acts, instead of putting on the same old people, year after, yawning year...

    Bring BACK Tom Bliss, and bring on George and Duncan too...




So, I'm sorry if this upsets some people, but there are some people, running some festivals, who need a turnip shoved up their bums, because year after year after year, the same ol' people are booked as headlining acts at the same ol' festivals.

In the Folk World, same as everywhere else, it seems it's not what you do, but who you know, that gets you into the folk clubs and festivals.

I WANT to see Tom, George and Duncan headlining festivals, and others too...It's time to move on and give others a chance...

Reg Meuross is another performer who blows folks away in amazement with his songs, but again, is Reg given headlining gigs? Nope..in fact there are those in here who do what they can to put his songs down....

Well, sod 'em...It's time the Folk World woke up to all the other talent around, instead of the closed shop, old anti-public schoolboys network, which is just as controlling as anywhere else....

Time to blast it all apart and put on some acts that the public want to see.

I am sooo tired of the same old same old same old...give me new blood, give me wonderful songwriters, give me professional musicians and singers who, for WAY TOO LONG, have been shoved aside by The Folk Network.

Anyway, that's my opinion....how about yours?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:01 PM

Lizzie, you do not need a lot to start a folk festival.

Both Shepley and Gate to Southwell both of whom booked Show of Hands as headline acts this year are only three years old and started from scratch.

Last time you mentioned your own radio show I offered you a route to doing it and what skills and knowledge you might need.

George, Duncan and Tom have all featured on my radio show, interviews and records.

Who and what is this "Folk Network" of which you speak? Name names.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Aeola
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:06 PM

Maybe more feedback to the Festival committees?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:17 PM

Where do you get the tie from, I want to join?

Seriously Lizzie, don't just shout about the music you believe on forums where we have all heard (or at least heard of) it, get out there and do as you say.

I started a folk club (which runs 2 weekenders) to give some breaks to the acts I believe in or am involved with. Certainly ain't part of any old boys network. I've booked Tom & Dunc as well.

Your biggest challenge will be getting an audience............but you can do it!


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:18 PM

So, why didn't Shepley and Southwell book some new blood for their headline acts?

See? Same old, same old...wherever you go...

Do you think Torquay is ready for a folk festival?    I think it is.

I think it would give the footballers wives and the BMW drivers, alongside the oiks and the 'Ooh I have soooooo much money!' boats owners a new outlook on life.....and hey, it could be held on the water!

Torquay desperately needs some magic and spirit sprinkled over it...and as Sidmouth has become sooooo old, grumpy and cruddy, well, I think that maybe the new venue for The Firey Folk Festival of Great Britain should be.....The English Riviera!

We could have The Demon Barber Roadshow doing 'Riviera Dance'...wowing them all down on the Quayside...and we could infiltrate McDonalds, sing them songs about Corporate Businessmen. At night, we could have the equivalent of The Ham, down in Kents Cavern! Can you just imagine the acoustics in those caves? Incredible!

Cockington Park, now that would make the best venue of all, amongst the thatched houses and the Blacksmith's cottage, the horse and carriage taking people around the village...Lutyen's pub taking the place of The Bedford....yes, we could have a singaround in The Drum Inn....and the headline acts could play with the background of the lakes behind them...

Oh wow, Duncan's electric folk band inside Kents Cavern! I mean, they nearly brought the house down at The Ham a few years back, they'd be sensational there...

My head is whizzing with ideas!


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:24 PM

The Tie, Banji...?

Here you go....


The Ol' Boys 2009 Folk Network Tie


;0)


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM

So, why didn't Shepley and Southwell book some new blood for their headline acts?

Remarkably you spent the earlier part of this year saying how wonderful SOH were and I got the impression you wanted festivals to book them. Do you not want them top of the bill anymore? Have they said something to upset you?

Shepley have Seth Lakeman in 2010. Are you saying they shouldn't book him?

So let me ask again - who is in this old boys' network of which you speak?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:22 PM

I dunno their names, but they're the folks who keep booking the same ol' acts, Dave.

Have Show of Who, upset me? Course not. I merely wiped them orf me Myspace page because I don't waste my words on those who don't appreciate them. I'm still desperately eager to read some words about them from their new fans though, over on fRoots...and I bet Ian A. has them lined up for a double page spread, so I can't wait to see that.   

I just get this sense of deja vu when it's the same old, same old, year upon year..same songs, same format, same festivals, same marquees.

There are so many talented people out there, with so much to offer, and it's just not fair that they don't get to headline, when they have talent bursting out.

You know, it's a strange world these days. Take modelling, or acting; you seem to have around 10 people who dominate their 'worlds' and that's all you get to hear about, yet the world is filled with beautiful women, fantastic actors, but nope, the same old faces.

Once, we had far more variety around, but even the folk world has fallen prey to the same few top acts, when 'top acts' abound in this musical world.

Perhaps it needs the folk world to break the mould, take a deep breath and put on some of the people they *know* have huge talent, headline them.

I bet, if you wrote down the current headline acts of the folk world, many of us would say that we'd seen them over and again, yet so many more are struggling to get their music heard, and they richly deserve to *have* their music heard, but time and again, they're put into small pubs or clubs, somewhere down the road....when actually, they have the talent to fill the biggest marquees.

Maybe we need a Back to Front Festival, where the big acts play the small venues and vice versa. Now that would be a bit different, wouldn't it! :0)


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:32 PM

http://www.dickmiles.com http://www.dickmiles.com
I am not sure if I qualify as an old boy.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: breezy
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:52 PM

The Hob gob feat in Wadebridge certainly had a very fresh appearance this year again inc Reg Neurosis[a poor joke so calm down one and all]

In my belief its not a 'network ' as such but organisers do tend to book familiar names from year to year and its their choice and probably they know what works best and it is their fest so butt out.

Quality will will rise , eventually, one hopes, but not always.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:14 PM

Quality can't always rise, if it's kept down, breezy.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:22 PM

I dunno their names, but they're the folks who keep booking the same ol' acts, Dave

Well I have been to the previous three Gate to Southwell festivals and and the previous three Shepley Festivals. They are handy for where I live. And they have both had different headline acts each year.

Organisers book who they think will sell tickets, commensurate with availability, price and size of festival.

The same person will be a headline act at a small festival and a lesser act at a large festival.

Lizzie now you have told us that you don't know the names of the "The Folk Network" of which you spoke in the first post, perhaps you would be good enough to tell us which festivals you have been to this year and who were the headline acts at each one?

It will enable people to judge what evidence your opinion is based on.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:52 AM

so it's time for the Old Boys Folk Network to get new blood into its Organisers and change a few of the Headlining acts,

I do believe the person who books for Sidmouth is in their first year in the job and is under 45.

At Whitby they have changed management in the couple of years with the retirement of Malcolm Storey.

As I pointed out Shepley and Gate to Southwell are only three (coming up to four) years old.

The Old Boy network seems to be crumbling Lizzie - isn't that what you want?

So come on Lizzie which festivals are you talking about that need new blood?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 06:35 AM

Mr Happy & the Gloom Band [& our larger enhanced lineup Mr Happy & the Misericords] have attended over a dozen fests & gatherings this year, as we do most years.

I agree with you Lizzie that there's a certain sameyness about the guest lineups, but since we're attending fests as 'fringers' for the various impromptu seshes which occur both within the main fest & on the periphery in pubs & other venues, we seldom if ever go to concerts, preferring to join with & listen to other fringers.

We run our own informal weekly sesh in the local area for allcomers, no paid guests, & its proved very popular.

In addition, for the last 5/6 years have organised a DIY event in the Peak District on the Easter Bank Holiday, based on a real ale pub + camping, though this time proved far too popular numberswise in that the pub was too small to accommodate the many visiting singers, musicians & audients!

We've now negotiated a new larger premises & campsite for next Easter.


What I'd suggest to you, Lizzie, is that if you're unhappy with what's currently on offer - get out there & do your own thing!!


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: breezy
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 06:46 AM

steady up guys I sense Lizzie is being backed into a corner,

chill


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:50 PM

Lizzie has backed herself into a corner.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:55 PM

Nope...I just don't give in to men who want to know more than they should about my life.

And now, back to the thread...


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Anne Lister
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM

Any thought about the women out there too? Speaking as one, you understand ...


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:51 AM

Lizzie, I really do not want to know about your life - as such. What I would like you to do when you make wild claims about "Old Boys Networks" and singers "Who have been shoved aside by "The Folk Network" is to produce some evidence such claims.

Apparently you know who the Old Boys Network consists of but unfortunately you have no idea of their names.

You want to see new young organisers. I pointed out that the Sidmouth Festival which is local to you, has a new organiser under 45 years of age and who has been appointed in the last year. I thought that was what you were asking for. Clearly words when you write them do not mean what most people think they mean - only what you say they mean.

Warwick has a young marketing manager.

Gate to Southwell and Shepley have only been going three years. Both headlined Show of Hands. A band you were contstantly asking for earlier this year and apparently you have now wiped them off your myspace. That'll upset them!

You have been screaming and raving about Seth Lakeman. Well he is on at Bromyard this coming weekend and headlines Shepley next May.

The fact is that what you say is not borne out by any facts that I recognise and I go to a lot of festivals.

I'd like to know how you have come to your conclusions and I thought listing the festivals/folk clubs that you have been to and seen evidence of this "Old Boys Networks" and "The Folk Network" at work would be the easiest way of doing it.

But if you have another way I would be delighted to read the evidence.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 08:49 AM

Dave,
you know its virtually impossible for anyone to come up with evidence.
so much of this back scratching is verbal, but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen

there is of course an old boys network,its probably not intentional,but it happens,the folkscene is no different from any other walk of life,be it Freemasons .RAOB,FreeForesters or whatever.
its called you scratch my back, ill scratch yours,and the folkscene is not exempt.
I always find it quite amusing to see so many performers networking at folk festivals,quite naturally everyone wants to get their noses in the trough,and quite naturally all those little piggies who have their noses in the trough,are not going to turn round and let the others.
lets stop pretending that the folk scene is the home of free music.
it is unfortunately rife with old boys networking,trying to prove it is however a waste of time ,and probably would only result in one group being replaced by another.
the folkscene is rife with little cliques,all jockeying for position,fortunately they often cancel each other out.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:09 AM

There's your answer for you, Dave.

Thank you, Dick.

I'm just saying that it happens. It happens a great deal. I've never stumbled across a world which is so cliquey, and so 'ruled' by those at the top, as the English Folk World is.

Don't forget, many of them clubbed together to hound me out of town, yourself included, as I recall, Dave. But it hasn't worked.

Seth Lakeman?

I don't screech about Seth these days, again, as well you know. He doesn't need me doing that anymore, he's recognised above and beyond the folk world now, thank goodness...and I wish him well.

It does p*ss me off, a great deal though, when other folks do not get the opportunities they should do, because of phobias within the folk world, particularly the so-called 'traditional' world, who won't have musicians because they perhaps went to the wrong 'type' of school, or once played the wrong 'type' of music, or speak with a 'posh' accent, or dared to once sign the wrong 'type' of record contract.

Is it vindictiveness, or inverted snobbery? Who knows, huh?

I also know of some musicians who are almost afraid of me bringing up these facts, in case I mention their names (I won't, so please don't panic anyone)....but why *should* those at the top have such power, when that power is so damaging and so wrong?

Why is the English Folk World so cliquey?

Why do people such as 'Ian you know who' assume he knows far more about 'what is folk', than others do?

Why do the (imo)often pitiful arss licking, worshippers who write on that site think they're in some kind of Secret Superior Society, when in actual fact, they're in nothing but a Society of vindictive, patronising, controlling unpleasantness? Quite frankly it saddens the hell out of me that SOH have decided to become part of that society these days, but such is life.

But this is not about them, it's about all the others out there, who have an abundance of talent, both as performers, writers, singers and musicians, who are overlooked year upon year, or put into the 'backroom' somewhere down the road, as a 'token gesture'....when they should damn well be on stage in the main arenas of our festivals, headlining, drawing in the crowds!

Unless there are people out there who are prepared to take the first step and put them on, how are they ever going to get to become major acts, as they deserve to be.

I'm just fed up with the folk equivalent of Naomi Campbell and Kate Moss, and would love to see new, fresh acts, new faces, some fairly well known faces too, but playing the top of the ladder for a change, where they should have played for years, but have been kept down by the Ol' Folk Boys & Girls Society.

Just my opinion though, so don't go getting yer knickers in a whatsit.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:23 AM

No Dick I don't know it is impossible to come up with evidence.

Lizzie wants to run her own festival and put on artists she wants thinks deserve to headline festivals.

I pointed out to two succesful festivals from over the past three years. so it is not impossible to do. She suggested venues where this might happen. I am happy to encourage her in this venture as would virtually all folk artists it would mean work for them after all.

I always find it quite amusing to see so many performers networking at folk festivals,

I am not sure what you mean by this Dick. Because I have a radio show and sell books on folk music I talk to artists at festvals. I talk to a lot of other people. I might be talking about books, about interviews, about forthcoming records, about past records, about what is happening where and when. I recently talked to an artist about some comments on a message board. I am not sure what else you want us to talk about. I was with a well-known folk artist yesterday: we talked football, and family. And folk music. Those are interests we share.

What would you like us to talk about so it wouldn't look as if people were networking?

lets stop pretending that the folk scene is the home of free music

I don't know anyone who does pretend. Some artists found in the sixties they were being asked to perform so they gave up a day job and took to the life of an itinerant singer. Some were succesful some weren't. That carries on. Some singers make a good living. Most have other jobs in my experience.

I am very lucky - here in Sheffield I can hear top class artists who people pay money to see and hear in my local pubs. So it is free. If I pay to go to a festival it isn't. That's it.

the folkscene is rife with little cliques

So let's hear some examples.

I do so dislike people who make wild statements with no evidence. You and Lizzie make a fine pair.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:28 AM

All the fests local to me have female Festival Directors.

Lizzie, I don't feel at that the issue's a gender thing.

Another way to influence what happens at fests is to get on the committee.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:31 AM

..........oh & I forgot to say, I don't want to know anything about your life


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:46 AM

So, you show me evidence that it *doesn't* exist then, Dave.

I said way, way back, on the BBC board...to Colin, a friend of Diane's, who was in some band I can't recall the name of now....that for many, trying to get 'in' to the folk world was like trying to join the Masons. You could only do it if you knew someone, who knew someone who was already inside it...or you were related to them in some way...and then, of course, you had to be prepared to either wear the Silly Traditional Apron, or do the Silly Traditional Handshake in order to be let in beyond the radar.

Some are prepared to do that, just to 'get on'.....but others, those for whom I have the utmost respect, stick firmly to their belief in themselves, and soldier on, year after year, being left out in the cold. But, they'd rather be true to themselves, than crawl to the powers that be.

As I said, I have the utmost respect for those who never 'sell out' simply to get ever higher up the folk ladder.

The thing is, *no-one* should have to 'sell out' in the first place.

Evidence, Dave?

Well, look at the Folk Awards, the BBC ones, that is. So often the same old, same old, year after year...The Ol' Boys Network at its best.

For YEARS I asked the BBC if they'd spread the Awards out, make it so that only one Award goes to one artist, or band, each year, thus allowing far more people to win Awards, bringing in fresh blood, new life, young and old...and giving far more people an opportunity to have their careers helped by receiving a Folk Award.

But nope, on and on it goes, year after year.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:48 AM

Try a petition?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:12 AM

I can't, Mr. Happy. The BBC banned me for life....and beyond.

I'd imagine that bloke who runs Smooth Ops had MORE than just a little something to do with that...and he runs the folk awards too...and he knows Ian Whoopsadaisy, who's also admitted to being one of the judges on the Folk Awards (year after year)...and so it goes on, and on and on....


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:25 AM

The BBC to my knowledge doesn't run any FFs


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:46 AM

Dave,
``Remarkably you spent the earlier part of this year saying how wonderful SOH were and I got the impression you wanted festivals to book them. Do you not want them top of the bill anymore? Have they said something to upset you?``
its comments like this,that prove you are badgering Lizzie.
you are being dishonest if you try to pretend that networking does not go on.
fortunately most folk club organisers,plough their own furrow,and are fiercely independent.
the sort of things that happen are someone gets work for someone in one country,that person fixes work for them in their own country.[that is called networking ,or you scratch my back I will scratch yours]
or a folk club organiser books another one in return for a return booking,or occasionally a festival organiser does it.
   although I must say I think the Festival organisers that do it are a very small minority.
and no, I am not prepared to name names [but that is not because I cant].
you are part of a clique that has continually attacked Lizzie on this forum,it is tedious, please give it a rest.
I disagree with much of what Lizzie says,but she has a right to express herself.
lizzies only fault appears to be over enthusiasm.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:56 AM

So, you show me evidence that it *doesn't* exist then, Dave.

No Lizzie you have the wrong end of the stick. I showed you evidence of something you were saying didn't exist. You asked for new young directors of folk festivals. There's one at Sidmouth under 45 - isn't that close to where you live? If you can't spot evidence on your own doorstep why should people believe in anything else you say.

I know of two long-established people at Whitby #folk Week have left this year first of all having been shadowed by and now replaced by two young people.

If you think it is hard breaking into the folk world try the rock, pop, or classical music world. It really isn't about secret handshakes - but it is about slogging up and down motorways, giving up well-paid jobs, sleeping in grotty accommodation, eating in greasy spoons and festival food and doing it for very little money. There were artists who did Sidmouth, Dartmoor, Bideford without a day off and then went to both Shrewsbury and Towersey. It's hard work.

As I said, I have the utmost respect for those who never 'sell out' simply to get ever higher up the folk ladder.

Now this is easy Lizzie, to produce evidence for this one. Top of the ladder and biggest folk attractions? Most festival organisers woud plump for Show of Hands, Bellowhead, Seth Lakeman. When did they sell out? You know all about SOH having been a big fan until recently. When did they sell out to become stars?

SGive us some examples of stars who have sold out. When did they do it?

Top of the bill this year - Spooky Men's Chorale from Australia. Just done a huge tour of the UK following up previous successes. Just driving their schedule would have been enough for most people never mind about radio and press interviews, rehearsals and oh! yes - living from a suitcase and performing for up to three or four hours per day.

Kate Rusby became a big star. I don't see any evidence of family connections there. Eliza Carthy's parents are in the business, but you cannot deny her talent. Paul Sartin's father was in the folk business - do you really think he could get into Belshazzar's Feast and Bellowhead on the strength of his dad's connections from the 60's and 70's. Perhaps being a music scholar at Oxford and an immense amount of talent helped.

All I ask is that you stop making wild allegations and claims unsupported by evidence. And to stop talking about things you really know nothing about.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:59 AM

Ultimately, what we put in to any endeavour in life should guide its outcome


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM

Dick I do not attack Lizzie because she is Lizzie. I don't attack her at all. All that I ask is when she - or anyone else - makes a claim about something - that they say where the evidence is for that assertion.

Remembering this thread is supposedly about who gets booked at festivals, I cannot think of many festival organisers who are mainstream performers. The Sidmouth Festival director sings but is hardly known for it. Warwick's Festival Director is in Coventry Mummers. But low-key performance is understandable they are "folkies" after all. The Director of Celtic COnnections is a performer - I have never known him at an English Festival.

I don't know about folk club performers - if they sing in folk clubs they might agre to do some swapping. When I helped to run one we swapped floor singers wholesale. I thought that still went on. If the club organiser is a singer it is inevitable that people will appear in each other's club. That is hardly snouts in troughs - given the size of the trough.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:27 AM

Lizzie - I am curious about your involvement in Music !
Have you ever been a paid performer ? Have you ever run a Club , and have you ANY idea of the principle of 'Bums On Seats' which has SO much to do with who gets booked where and for how much money ?

As suggested previously , IF you dont like the way things are being run , then run a Club , or a Concert Series or (Heaven Forbid) a Festival , on the lines YOU want it run .


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:52 AM

The "Colin" referred to above rather oddly as "my friend" (I hope he is but I fail to see what that has to do with it) is Colin Cotter, a member of the Gloworms, a highly respected and talented English ceilidh and concert band. Along with Jon Brenner and Laurel Swift, he grew up each summer in Sidmouth along with children of other "folk"-related families (like the Oates and the Unthanks to pick out just two).

Colin could have chosen a musical career but decided on academia, continuing to pursue music as a hobbyist because he loves it so much. There are many hundreds of performers like him, of whom the OP clearly knows nothing at all, unable as she is to recall the band name. These are the musicians who are the backbone of the festival circuit, always to be found in sessions, doing ceilidhs and running children's workshops. All three Gloworms are Morris dancers.

If the OP were to actually go to a few festivals and look a bit further than mainstages, she would fall across the most fantastic array of young talent under the auspices of a whole new bunch of enthusiastic young organisers. Dave Delarre of Mawkin, a music industry graduate, has spent the past five days doing 5 gigs and over 900 miles, He's also a leading light of the Association of Festival Organisers and has huge plans for his own festival in the future. He's 23. Six years ago he was writing more sense as a schoolboy chez the BBC than any of the stuff the OP spouts . . . and still does, ad nauseum. It's not hard to pinpoint which of the two: the lifelong activist or the very occasional punter with rather odd musical taste, knows what they are talking about.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:14 PM

Sorry - I didn't mean Paul Sartin's father, I meant his relation Bonny Sartin.

And to be positive Lizzie. You made some suggestions where a festival could be held. You want your own festival. Go for it.

So here is what you do. (I'd try and get some helpers around you it is not a one-person job).

Check the venues you thought of using. See who owns them. See if any are licensed for music already. See if there are likely to have any objections to applications for a TEN. See what they might cost. put that down as first item on your budget.

Now see if you can arrange camping or accommodation. A seaside resort like Torquay might have both. The Tourist Office might help you select a venue too if you sound professional.

Now you have a start.

Come back to me and we will go through the next stage when you have done that and got a possible venue.

Dave
(On-line festival organisation a speciality!!)


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:45 PM

No, it's the Events Department in Torbay Council, actually, Dave. A chap called Conway Hoare (what a great name, he belongs in a novel.)

Ah yes, Gloworms, that was their name.

Actually, you told Colin off for being a pain in the arse when he said that Show of Who were only liked by women of a certain age, first time I ever wrote on that board, as I recall. :0) I think I saw him dancing outside the National Trust shop a while back, not on his own, I hasten to add....He kinda gave me a slight glimmer of a grin, somewhat embarrassedly..if that's a word.

I don't work for them any longer, they've gone 'Corporate' in my opinion, so I wrote and told Fiona Reynolds what I thought of her organisation and where she was taking it. Yeesh, bunch of Sales Reps have taken it over on the retail side...and that is sooooo not what it should be about, so...I resigned, with a Capital R.

Now, where were we?...Oh yes, glowing with worms

And er...scuse me, but the little group of whom you speak, Sweetums, is part of the Traditional world, methinks....the very one I'm talking about being a closed shop.

Yes, with reference to a post above, I'm puzzled too, as to why Show of Hooos new fans, they being the fRoots traddies who now so admire them for telling me to be quiet, or rather, not talk about them in gloworms terms, but rather spit vitriol about them, as apparently they like that..haven't said a bloomin' word about them.

'Tis a puzzlement, huh....

Maybe they're waiting to write about Show of Hose's new CD. Aha! That's what it'll be! Silly me! :0)

Oh...and Phil Beer has fallen off the newsletter. I think someone should go look for him, because I'm a little worried over that...Just Steve on there now, with Miranda and Jenna in the background, but..no Phil. I'd go and search for him myself, but he may think Glen Close is getting closer!

LOL

Folk on The English Riviera

Hmmmm...maybe we should go French...all dress as Onion Sellers, whilst listening to Mawkin playing Au Francais down on the harbour wall...


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 12:55 PM

No answers then Lizzie?

Just twaddle?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:09 PM

Twaddle?

Noooo, just a little light heartedness, a rest from the 'grilling'. You always like to 'grill' me, Dave. I think it's a domination thing. ;0)

Besides, I put you right on who you need to contact. :0)


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: johncharles
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:27 PM

given the nature of folk music and the somewhat limited overall audience making a living from it is only ever going to be possible for very small numbers of musicians. many of us play and sing for the love of it; this is one of the more appealing aspects of the folk scene.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 01:58 PM

I have an admission to make....

I'd ALWAYS have those Gorgeous Oysters headlining at my festival. I'm sitting here listening to their 'Meet You There' CD and it's just brilliant!

Right now, 'Over The Water' is playing and I'm starting to imagine them singing down on harbour, the lights from the stage dancing on the little boats that bob up and down on the water there...

Oysterband Myspace

'Folk In The Bay!'

That's what I'll call it....and we have a HUGE balloon down on the seafront that rises up above the town, like a large bubble...Imagine that, flying above The Bay whilst the Oysterband are singing 'Over The Water' down below, their voices rising up Torre Abbey...as you rise higher and higher towards the Evening Star....

'Folk In The Bay'...about as Close to Heaven as you can get...

Yeah! :0)


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:00 PM

Apologies for all the words I've missed out there....LOL

Listening to the Oysterband always has a somewhat strange effect on my mind! :0)


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

I don't do festivals any more: but to confirm that, as Dick & Lizzie say & Folkiedavie is barking up wrong tree about the networking he does with just about Everybody at festivals making a difference to the principle -

YES, the Folk Scene is as cliquy & hierarchical as any other.

30 years ago I myself was, as those old enuff may recall, a Folk Somebody - I don't say this to blow own trumpet or squeeze own concertina or any such, but becoz it is the point of the story. Not as performer, but I was then folk critic of The Guardian & folk-book critic of The Times, regular columnist for Folk Review &c &c. So I had the entrée, as you might say.

In one of those between-timeses at a festival [I think it was Norwich] a group of us were chilling out. Peter Bellamy, Martin Carthy, Noel Murphy, Nic Jones, Alex Atterson [who organised that festival] & I were all in a group chewing the rag. A hand squeezed my elbow & a voice said 'Hello'; I turned around & it was a friend from my hometown, Cambridge, whom I knew from the local clubs who was a fine singer & smallpipes player. So I said, "Oh, hi, Ed", & to the others "This is my friend Ed from Cambridge; he is a great singer & smallpiper". Now they were all perfectly pleasant and polite people, & they all smiled and said "Hi Ed" - but then they turned away from him & got on with their own chat; not in a hostile way, but just that none of them tried to include him or make him feel at home - they didn't mean to be rude, I'm sure; but he just wasn't One·Of·Us; you could tell. I remember telling my wife, who wasn't all that folkie & didn't come to festivals I was reviewing with me, about this incident when I got home, & she said "Oh, sure. I'm afraid that's absolutely typical; you are sure to find the Pecking Order wherever you go."

That incident taught me a lesson about the Folk Scene being just like any other kind of Scene, which I think is relevant to this thread, I think... Even tho I am not exercised at present as to who does or does not headline festivals.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:40 PM

Mike, you have been at the worms again!! :-)

This is what Lizzie originally wrote starting this thread.

So, I'm sorry if this upsets some people, but there are some people, running some festivals, who need a turnip shoved up their bums, because year after year after year, the same ol' people are booked as headlining acts at the same ol' festivals.

Now do you believe that Mike? Because if so you really do need to say which festival organisers who need a turnip up their bums booking the same headliners at the same ol' boy network.

The reason you need to say it is because Lizzie wont, and the reason she wont is because she doesn't actually know anyone like that despite her confident assertions.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:51 PM

Alternatively Lizzie if there is as much unsung talent around the clubs and smaller venues as you say, and I have no reason to doubt you, then why not support the clubs and leave the festivals to their own devices?
Isn't the more intimate and inter active atmosphere of a small venue more conducive to bringing the best out of a performer than some impersonal festival or concert stage?
Dave, who did the well known performer support??


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 02:54 PM

I know Steve Fairholme, who does Otley Festival. Now, Steve doesn't need a turnip anywhere! :0) He's a poppet and....his festival was just purrrrfect when I went oop to Otley a few years back.   And I think Steve also does other festivals, Hardraw being one..Lovely chap.

I was married to one of Sidmouth's Directors for 25 years. And whilst he was a Director, I pushed several acts forward, which he took 'to the board' for me, and they passed them, with his encouragement.

Of course, they didn't 'headline' them, although he tried and tried to get that done. He did get one act in The Ham though, in the evening, so that was excellent.

Hey, Dave...here.....a Turnip! Catch!

Methinks you know where to shove it....


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 03:42 PM

Lizzie,

You should have been at Shrewsbury Folk Festival. Lots of your favourites were there: Sethman, SOH, Duncan McFarlane Band, Kathryn Roberts and Sean Lakeman, John Jones of the OysterbandGeorge Papavgeris.

Perhaps you caught some of it on the webcam.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: BB
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 04:23 PM

Don't think Paul Sartin could have got on in the folk world through Bonny Sartin - unless I'm much mistaken, they didn't even know each other, and it's only recently come to light that they are distant relations.

Personally, I don't see how so many of the younger generation could have risen to the top, as they undoubtedly have, if the folk world was made up of an old boys' (or girls') network - most of them simply wouldn't have had a way into it, with a few exceptions.

I agree with Lizzie in one respect - I think there is quite a large number of performers who have been around for years who deserve to be higher up the ladder than they are. They do fairly well in the general run of folk clubs (probably because they don't cost too much!), but they are not so much in evidence at festivals. I think that one of the reasons is that festival organisers spend vast amounts of money getting the top bands in for perhaps one concert, because their names on the bills bring in the punters (or at least, the organisers think they do), so there isn't so much money around for the others, and festival organisers have, I think, a tendency to then fill in with local (and cheap) performers who actually make their living in a different way. Whether this set-up is value for money for the audiences is debateable.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 04:33 PM

The Gloworms "a little group"? In what sense? They were part of The Imagined Village which I don't recall as particularly "little".

To clarify, the OP was once married to a chap who had something to do with an acoustic dive at Dukes in the immediate post-Heap era at Sidmouth. She absolutely wasn't married either to Mr Heap nor to Bill Rutter.

********

MGM I'm puzzled to know why your bunch of luminaries at Norwich should suddenly be obliged to change their conversation (which was undoubtedly about string gauges and weird dropped tunings) into one about smallpiping when your surely very lovely friend turned up. Had he just sat on the periphery and played softly, they'd soon have joined in if not needed on stage. That's what they do.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 05:55 PM

You see, there you go again, being all sniffy about acoustic music.

Part of the Ol' Boys & Girlies Network in action, again.

The Gloworms were hardly a folk supergroup, Dinkums, come on, but they were heavily supported by the 'network', of course.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 06:03 PM

Don't think Paul Sartin could have got on in the folk world through Bonny Sartin - unless I'm much mistaken, they didn't even know each other, and it's only recently come to light that they are distant relations.

I have apologised for making that reference Barbara - though of course I was making the point that it WASN'T the "family connection" - which I now learn was much less than I originally thought.

MikeGM, Lizzie was not talking about cliques per se - of course they exist in all groups and societies as you rightly point out. She was talking about a CONTROLLING clique of festival organisers - though it seems when she meets one he (in this case at Otley Festival) apparently he is not part of it.

Dave, despite living in Yorkshire he supports Manure.

Lizzie, I wonder what your husband did whilst a Director of Sidmouth? Clearly you weren't married to Alan Bearman who programmed the festival for many years, or Steve Heap. Were you married to Bill Rutter? I don't remember that at all.

Here is an easy one for you. What was his role? Clearly he had access to the board as you say. As a Director he would. And who was the act YOU succeeded on getting on the Ham? Must have been a few years ago so it can't harm anyone to know now.

Steve Fairholme is "a poppett" Lizzie says, clearly a model organiser.

Well Lizzie Steve has committed the cardinal sin this year, for he too has booked Show of Hands as headliners!!

Is he still a poppet? I think we should be told.

And how are you getting on with the Torquay Festival? You have had lots of advice saying it can be done!! And you have found out who to talk to. Well done! Now what dates are you thinking of? Got anyone else on board to help yet? I'd get movcing on that one too - otherwise you will be doing all the work yourself and have no time to write on here.

And you had better hurry up, some of those non-headliners will be getting booked soon.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 06:07 PM

but they were heavily supported by the 'network', of course

Who? How?

Lizzie stop making wild allegations. And do take more water with it.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:41 PM

What makes you think that I'm talking about SOH, Dave? There are many same old, same olds...

Oh, I can't remember WHO I was married to now, it's such a blur. I think it was possibly ALL of them, after all, you know what a little flirt you like to think I am. Of course, whether I married them all on the same day I can't recall...and who I stayed with the longest, well...who knows? But, you know, a gal's gotta do what a gal's gotta do.

Gawd you do ask incessant questions! It's like the Folk Gestapo are on to me.

Tell me Dave, how do you make love amd who to? I can just picture it....

"What?"
"Why?"
"When?"
"how?"
"Do I *know* you?"


Turnips, dave, turnips.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Acorn4
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 08:00 PM

Don't know what you're on Lizzie, but can I have some?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Cleverthreads (inactive)
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 08:03 PM

Is it just me, or does none of this make any sense?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:04 AM

Davie - as you seem to realise in your 2nd ref back to me above, I made clear I am in no position to name names, which was not at all the purpose of my anecdote; which was to demonstrate that, as some have unjustifiably denounced Lizzie & Dick for saying, the Folk Scene does so have its own PeckingOrder.

Borchester: No, I thought I had made it clear we were chilling out not talking technicalities - between·times smalltalk. One might have thought civility, a sense of social obligation, would have prompted one or other to turn to my friend as i, who was among them as part of the 'luminary' circuit, had intro'd him into the circle and ask him a bit about himself & his music, & what he did when he wasn't playing it, as he wasn't clearly a professional folkie - he was in fact an adult student at what is now AngliaRuskinUniv tho had another name then; & a gifted amateur actor, another connexion thru which i knew him [have i told you I once won BestActor cup in a DramaFestival?]; & not just left his 'entertainment', if that's the right word, entirely to me; but none of them did - he wasn't OneOfUs, U-C, & so they just weren't interested - didn't, as i said, mean to be rude; but the PeckingOrder Rules OK, in Folk as everywhere else, and there are levels, charmed·circles, at which lower forms·of·life just aren't welcome...


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 12:35 AM

... If my wife had been there, that is exactly what she would have done - she was brilliant at that sort of social courtesy. & some wives were there too - i haven't named the whole group; Julia Jones was there with Nic, i recall, & Anthea Bellamy I think; Fred Woods my Folk Review editor; & various others who were 'in' enuff to be accepted; as poor old Ed wasn't, so must have felt really frozen out: & didn't any of them have enough sensitively condescensive nous [in no pejorative sense] to appreciate that he would have liked to meet Carthy or Bellamy or Murphy for once on something like social equal terms, which was why I intro'd him into the group when he accosted me, rather than going a bit aside to talk to him as i could have done? But none of them seemed sufficiently socially aware to get this: I genuinely think too unconsciously conscious [as it oxymoronically were] of their status to want to admit one who didn't qualify for the Group...


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 03:34 AM

What makes you think that I'm talking about SOH, Dave? There are many same old, same olds...

Well Lizzie, just so you can understand the argument - since you have clearly forgotten what you have written in the past couple of days.

You say there is a "controlling" group of festival organisers who refuse to let people into the folk world as headliners, despite the fact they are putting their money into it.

And the thing that distinguishes them is that they keep booking the same headliners all the time. You include Show of Hands in this despite the fact that you have consistently argued what a great band and a superb attraction they were, until recently when you wiped them off your Myspace.

You made an exception for Steve Fairholme at Otley Festival whom you described as a "poppet". He booked SOH this year. Therefore is he still a "poppet"?

I note you say you are no longer married to your husband the former Director of Sidmouth Festival. Are you sure he was at meeetings when he told you he was?

Mike what you described was a clique and from what you tell me they seemed a trifle rude to your friend. My experience of those in that group that I have met is just the opposite.

But that is not what Lizzie is arguing. She says this clique "Folk Network" Old Boy's Network or whatever she wants to call it are controllers.

Since you seem well-versed in this, though in fact just about anyone knows more about it than Lizzie, would you be prepared to produce evidence of this controlling clique who keep booking the same headliners regardless of talent, and keeping those that Lizzie likes (at the moment for as we have seen her tastes change) down below the main stage?

Name a few folk headliners that have "sold out" as she suggests.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 04:08 AM

Folkiedave; I did say 'they were all pleasant & polite people'. Thoughtless, I should say, rather than rude. But no positive effort to make him feel welcome; due, I'm sure, to a subliminal feeling that he did really quite 'belong' up there with us. It's hard to put a finger on the atmosphere that was being generated; the old word 'cut' comes somewhere near - except as I say I'm sure it was unconscious & not intended to snub. I won't go on about this: it's hard to define & maybe beginning to drift too far. But I am sure there are some out there who recognise the sort of situation I am trying to describe here.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 04:45 AM

Mike I understand what you are saying - not a problem.

But that isn't what the thread is about. It's about a group which Lizzie says exists that control the artists who get to headline at Folk Festivals.

She mentioned Sidmouth, she wants new younger directors.

From her first post:

So, I'm sorry if this upsets some people, but there are some people, running some festivals, who need a turnip shoved up their bums, because year after year after year, the same ol' people are booked as headlining acts at the same ol' festivals.

That is what it's about and if you agree with that then you need to show who and where.

At her "local" festival, Sidmouth there is a new Director under the age of forty-five.

I pointed to two highly succesful festivals that have started up in the past three years.

The fact is she cannot point to where this is happening. Instead she posts twaddle about not being able to remember her husband.

And actually Lizzie I am not asking a series of questions - just one really. It's called evidence.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 05:31 AM

Just caught sight of this interesting discussion .... A good point indeed. I was the person responsible for booking and programmuing the song and music at Sidmouth for 2007 and 2008 which included of course all the concert platforms. I would really take issue with anyone who felt that I was part of the OB Network. It did and does exist though and I know of many so called 'folk snobs' who regard themselves as 'guardians of quality control' for the tradition. They bore me and always have done and they actually stand in the way of progress and keeping 'our music' whatever that is, alive and well!

Some did exist at Sidmouth but they have 'by and large' moved on but not all. I stopped after 2008 because I moved abroad. However, in recent years (before 2009) Sidmouth had booked many of those names mentioned above ... incl Duncan, George, Tom and Reg. I expecially had a leaning to new and young performers and tried to take risks when possible ... artists like Mawkin:Causley, The Unthanks, Last Orders, Outside Track, Border Fiddles, Bodega, Jim Moray, Jackie Oates, Wheeler Street, have all appeared at Sidmouth over very recent years, plus many more artists under the age of 30.

SoH too of course but it must be remebered that being the local heroes, they would always be a certain Bums on Seats concert. All festival organisers have to take a 'broad and balanced' approach to programming and always 'staright jacketed' by financial constraints. Those people who have truly experienced the burden of responsibility of trying to build a financially successful 8 day festival consisting of hundreds of events will understand that one has to some extent, leave personal desires to one side and make difficult choices based not only on artistic merit but other considerations also. There you go!


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 05:53 AM

Dave,
its impossible to produce evidence,that doesnt mean that it does not go on.
the folkscene is like any other walk of life,there are lots of grey areas,who gets certain jobs is not decided entirely on merit.
let me give you an example in a totally different field ,a relative of mine was at a job interview,one of the interviewers,had been at Oxford University at the same time,so two people of equal calibre apply for the job,who do you think gets the job?.[its called the old school tie]
the same sort of thing happens in the folk world,its almost unavoidable,but to pretend it doesnt exist is dishonest,it also does not mean that those people that get certain jobs are not competent,it means that it is not decided entirely on merit.,who you know is as important as what you know.
I am not saying that the people who get certain jobs do not deserve them,they are not incompetent they are often very good, but friendship,as a result of networking can enter the equation, but merit is not the only deciding factor.
BB makes an excellent post re festivals here it is again:
``I agree with Lizzie in one respect - I think there is quite a large number of performers who have been around for years who deserve to be higher up the ladder than they are. They do fairly well in the general run of folk clubs (probably because they don't cost too much!), but they are not so much in evidence at festivals. I think that one of the reasons is that festival organisers spend vast amounts of money getting the top bands in for perhaps one concert, because their names on the bills bring in the punters (or at least, the organisers think they do), so there isn't so much money around for the others, and festival organisers have, I think, a tendency to then fill in with local (and cheap) performers who actually make their living in a different way. Whether this set-up is value for money for the audiences is debateable.``
Dave,do you think this is a good set up?is it value for money?I would like an honest answer.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:11 AM

"I note you say you are no longer married to your husband the former Director of Sidmouth Festival."

I said I was married to *one* of the Directors of Sidmouth (Folk Week)...there were many at the time, Dave. May I suggest you check your facts.

"Are you sure he was at meeetings when he told you he was?"

Geez, seems the milk on your cornflakes was a little sour this morning.

Sidmouth is not my local festival. I have no interest in the current artistic director, as well you know, as she's someone who's called me, publicly, a racist, and never had the guts to apologise for that either in private or in public.

I presume you're deliberately trying to stir things in that direction, Dave. I'm not taking the bait.

Please keep this thread on track. It's not for personal insults, nor Gestapo style questioning. I have told you that I know several artists who are have found it very difficult to break into the folk world. I will not put their names down, so you're going to have to put up with that...It's no good trying to bully me into anything with a barrage of questions or personal insults.

Other people have put the evidence down here for you, but still you will not accept it. That's fine. That's your choice.

Whatever.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:17 AM

Tangent:


A topic nearly unrelated to the main topic, but having a point in common with it.

I believe we went off onto a tangent when we started talking about monkeys on unicycles at his retirement party.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tangent


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Me
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:24 AM

GSS ... some good points but also consider ...

Every festival spends a great deal of time liasing with organising there venues for all manner of performances. Sidmouth for example could use around 15 venues or so for its concerts, dances and workshops. Any good finacial director worth their salt, and Sidmouth has a good one, will then try and set up a cost centre for each venue to try and ensure that each venue 'pays for itself'. This then surely means that the bigger the venue (especially if it is tented)the more the overheads (power, lighting, bars, flooring etc etc)It then follows that big named 'headline bands' need to perform there because of pressure on financial returns. BUT ... as I said in my earlier email, there are other considerations ... Bellowhead will not fit on a small stage (this is not only a size issue but also artistic in getting the best from the performers. Also there maybe many smaller venues which are best suited for other artists. This is NOT about insignificant artists getting smaller venues it is ALL about horses for courses and matching artists to venues thereby making sure that artists are comfortable with their performance space, taking on board the intimacy of their personal performances and interaction with audiences etc.

Also other considerations are always present such as preferences for PA vs acoustic and so on. There is more to building a programme than just cherry picking bands and sticking them on a stage.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:56 AM

Please keep this thread on track. It's not for personal insults,

And the turnip you invited me to stuff up my bum Lizzie?

Hey, Dave...here.....a Turnip! Catch!

Methinks you know where to shove it....


Like I said earlier - you forget what you have written. Take more water with it.

And get on with that festival you are organising. It'll be too late soon. How is it going?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:59 AM

There'll be some vacant w/ends in December, January,February, if its any help?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:02 AM

I have told you that I know several artists who are have found it very difficult to break into the folk world. I will not put their names down,

No Lizzie you haven't. You have told me about some artists who you thought should be headliners.

Far from not putting their names down you mentioned Tom Bliss, Duncan McFarland and George Papavgeris.

I booked Tom Bliss and Duncan McFarland for a festival way back in 2003. Were you promoting them six years ago Lizzie? I was.

George stayed with my wife and I last time he was in Sheffield.

But then you were never one to let the facts spoil a good story.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:22 AM

Having started playing on the folk scene in 1973, I must be one of these Old Boys of which you speak....Yes?
How do I become a member??? Does it cost mutch yearly?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:41 AM

Gez, you're such a prat, Dave. Sorry, but you are.

Your high and mighty, holier than thou words above sicken me.

For your information, I had almost an ENTIRE band stay with me for Sidmouth. My now ex-husband also managed to get more money for one particular artist, and nope, it's nothing to do with you WHO it was.

AND...for your information, it's The Duncan McFarlanE Band.

Also, for your information, I was writing thousands of words, both about George and Duncan's band, around 5/6 years back, on the BBC board...and I recall a journalist coming over, saying how delighted he was to read that George was finally getting some recognition.

So, put that in your bitter little pipe, and shove it somewhere with the turnip.

It's people such as yourself, who refuse to acknowledge that this has been happening for donkey's years (and to hell with where the ' goes) that keep the Ol' Boys Network alive and kicking.

Read the words of others above, who agree with me, even if that infuriates you.

ONCE, I WAS able to write thousands of words about artists, on the BBC board, and I know I brought people into their music too. However, because of er....The Network....that was stopped too. The whole thing is riddled with wrongness, all the way down the line...and if I blew the whistle on it, because hell, this ain't the first time I've brought it up, and subsequently drew in the Witch Hunter Generals, so be it.

There are musicians out there who have suffered for YEARS because of this, Dave...and that is very, very wrong, because they are equally talented.

The whole ethos of the folk world is that all are equal.....well, sadly, as in everything else, some are more equal than others.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:47 AM

My ears were burning.

Just for the record - referring back to the OP - the root cause of my 'retirement' was not lack of bookings, but lack of bums.

Yes, there are some friendship-based 'cliques' (most very welcoming if you approach them right), and some business-based 'networks' (all very welcoming if you offer a decent product) in folk music (as in everything else) but by and large it is a meritocracy - with different criteria applying in different cases (e.g. pulling-power / skill / 'authenticity' / entertainment value etc, according to the demands of the gig in question).

Yes, some people didn't book me because they didn't like what I did, and some because they DID like what I did, but felt it was wrong for their event, or just didn't have space that time. Others didn't book me because they were afraid I'd not pull enough people (they were right), and they had plenty of people to book who would.

But there was no cartel - not in terms of bookings anyway. I had more than my share of club and festival gigs, usually on the big stage at some point, and occasionally as a headliner. I have absolutely no problem with 99.9999% of bookers - and I'd do exactly the same as them if I was a promoter.

No, the problem was that folk music tends to appeal to people who are rather conservative (small c) and less likely in later life to risk turning out for an act they fear may be poor or dull - not least because there are quite a few acts around who are indeed (to them, anyway) poor and/or dull, but who still get booked by people who do like them for one of the above reasons.

You following this?

I certainly can't blame the bookers. Nearly everyone who could book me did so, and most of them have become friends for whom I have massive respect. (And my greatest respect remains for the many who booked me and lost money, but still booked me again - and sometimes again and again, never breaking even on any of the gigs)!

So am I blaming the people who stayed away (famously at one Scottish gig 100% of the audience!)

No - because why should they come out to see someone they may well not enjoy? It was my job to persuade them I was worth a punt (yes it's the promoter's job to do the actual pitch but he can only work with my material and reputation) - and, ultimately, I failed.

The real problem was that the national folk audience is too small and too fragmented for someone like me to join up the drops, and become a small fish in a sustainable ecosystem.

Tom


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 08:07 AM

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 06:11 AM
Sidmouth is not my local festival.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 07:41 AM
For your information, I had almost an ENTIRE band stay with me for Sidmouth.

Lizzie - that is a record for you - contradicting yourself in the space of 1 hour 30 minutes.

Well done.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 09:21 AM

"Lizzie - that is a record for you - contradicting yourself in the space of 1 hour 30 minutes."

What is it with you? I was talking about Sidmouth Folk Week, the first one. Sidmouth is no longer my local festival. Even when it was, for the past two years I've not attended it hardly at all. I'm afraid that I've never felt the same about it since Gordon had to step down, following the Feminist Witch Hunt against him. If it wasn't for him, Sidmouth would have died, and 'they' hounded him out, by NOT supporting him as they should have done. And no, Dave, my ex was not one of those who didn't support Gordon, he did.

Capiche?

Can you now stop the baiting. (Flying pigs, I guess)

Lovely piece of writing Tom.

As to the Scots, it was their loss. Good to hear that you've been supported by many though. Confusing as to why folk didn't turn out.
When I saw you and Tom Napper at Sidmouth that time, the room was pretty near full, as I recall and we had a really entertaining and often very moving afternoon of songs...I missed you at Eve's a while back, due to only finding out the evening before you were due to play, and I already had somewhere else to be, which was a real bummer, you being just down the road.

There's a need for the folk world to reach new audiences, perhaps, but that's a whole other thread...


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 10:57 AM

Sorry, senior moment there...!
I still want to know who runs this Old Boys Club?
Would love to join it....
Only done two festivals this year...All these youngsters getting in the way....mumble....Ah well, just have to get back to playing my own music for myself....As Tom has surmised, no-one makes a living out of folk music!


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:39 AM

And Lizzie...You refer to the first Sidmouth Folk week...Well it was only a weekend, and it was in 1954...So, You were there then?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Cleverthreads (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:42 AM

GUEST,Ralphie said, "I still want to know who runs this Old Boys Club?"

That and who's in this "club" you're rattling on about. Our readers demand answers


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 11:51 AM

My sentiments exactly CT...
Have been a member of various clubs through the years, and resident at most of them....Most of which had lots of women attending, singing, playing, etc....Yes, admittedley they're all a lot older nowadays, But I haven't noticed the women dying off leaving the Folk world male heavy? It's an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.
(And I don't have a tie, apron, or a funny handshake either!)
I Just play music, and occasionally people pay me to do so...But, I'll play at home if necessary, because I like to do it!
Can't see a problem....!
So, what on earth is Lizzie on about?


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:11 PM

That and who's in this "club" you're rattling on about. Our readers demand answers

In fairness CT she has already answered that.
She has said she doesn't know.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:19 PM

Actually. I realy don't care!!!


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Cleverthreads (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:25 PM

Folkiedave said "In fairness CT she has already answered that.
She has said she doesn't know."

Then perhaps this very odd woman, Lizzie Cornish1, should provide us and herself with proof before shooting from the lip. I'm getting the impression, from other posters, that she's no stranger to these sorts of wild rantings.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Callingbird
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 02:33 PM

That makes two of us, Ralphie.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 03:29 PM

Sigh....She'll be back in a minute....sadly.
Just wish I was a member of this club... Oh Well...
On the other hand,!


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Sep 09 - 04:04 PM

"Then perhaps this very odd woman, Lizzie Cornish1, should provide us and herself with proof before shooting from the lip. I'm getting the impression, from other posters, that she's no stranger to these sorts of wild rantings."

You know, Brummie...others have mentioned the same thing as me. May I suggest you read their posts also.


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Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 11 Sep 09 - 04:55 PM

I may be naive, but I thought that festival organisers booked the acts that would guarantee them an audience.

Then I thought that the the organisers filled the bill with cheaper new acts, thus giving these new, possibly lesser known, acts a chance to perform in front of an audience and possibly getting the recognition that they deserve.

I think that if the people who Lizzie mentions were headliners, not many tickets would be sold. I agree that this is wrong - but it's business. George Papavgeris and Duncan McFarlane played at Shrewsbury this year. They weren't the headline acts. If they had been, I don't think the audiences would have been so huge. Because they were playing in front of the big audiences that had come to hear Seth Lakeman, SOH and the like, they gained themselves lots of new fans.


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