BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 11:00 AM

But it brings up a question:
Those of you who home school because your children were not able to learn in a classroom environment - what did you do when your children came home and said that a teacher told they were stupid? Or that they were ridiculed for poor spelling?

And how do you teach your children to deal with the negative people and situations they are bound to come across in life?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:57 AM

LOL
involvement

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 10:30 AM

I don't think anyone, even those expressing the cons of home education against the rather uncritical and extravagant claims made by some advocates, are suggesting that it should be illegal; the original discussion, on another thread, revolved around the proposal in the UK for a minimum standard of registration and some accountability.

From a personal viewpoint, I believe that it should require registration and monitoring to ensure a minimum standard of 'ability' including a vist (with due notice as Badman recommends) to the learning environment - however much parents may protest this to be an invasion of 'privacy'

I know two children, educated in the state system who, as teenagers, are well rounded intelligent young people who, with minds of their own, are a delight to talk to as an adult and who have a wide and mutually caring group of peers.
Their parents recognized the need for involvement with the school and their mother was a parent governor for many years.

Of course there are 'failing' or underperforming schools* and some very failed parents

As has been pointed out the ability to reproduce is no guarantee of either good parenting or educating.


*like Stretford High
More than a third of Stretford High School's pupils are eligible for free school meals, English is a second language for nearly half of them, many parents are unemployed and the existing system in the LA creams off the top 30 to 40 per cent of pupils each year to grammar schools.
from The head who turned around a failing school... report in The Independent January 2008

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:52 AM

"Parental involvemnet is the key."

How very, very true.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 09:19 AM

A US Homeschooler's views with humor:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/09/28/confessions_homeschooler/

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:58 AM

Some of you know that I adopted my son when he was nine. He was a foster child with me for a year.

That first year as a ward of the state he had to attend a school selected by the state. He was in a special ed program in a "normal" school. This meant first that he could never be accepted by the "normal" kids although his learning delays were mostly emotionally based. It also meant that his gym class consisted of throwing a basketball against a classroom wall - they didn't let the "retards" mix with the "normal" students in gym - too dangerous.
The worst of it was that they had no suitable class for him and he ended up in a room of 7 students all severely autistic. He had been abused (too long and too horrible to recount) in foster care for years so when an autistic child became upset and had to be physically restrained for his own protection, my son saw abuse and was terrified. I fought to have him put into a Special Ed school where he would have a more appropriate placement and safer environment but was threatened with losing him - adoption is an ugly business in NYC.

The day his adoption was finalized I removed him from that school and put him in the Summit program at my own expense. It cost as much as college at the time. Fortunately, I made very good money at the time and adoption was subsidized despite my refusing the money. another weird story. He tested at a pre-kindergarten level in September and at a 4th grade level in November. He went from being unable to count to 20 or recite the alphabet to doing simple algebra and reading.

Two key factors were in place - first he was safe and loved; second, he was in a learning environment where he was told he was smart and bright - that had never happened before. He thrived. And when he failed at a subject we found ways to help him learn while making him realize that this did not make him a bad os stupid person. His strong points were encouraged; hisweaknesses dealt with without obsessing on them.

My son was not a candidate for home school. He needed constant social interaction, constant physical activity, and to be independent in a secure environment.The public school teachers, as far as I could see, were either burned out or too disinterested to care. One told me (I had called at about 3:30 to discuss an incident on the bus) "My day ends at 3PM" Contrast that to the Summit School teachers who called me regularly over school vacations and the summer to see if he was staying on track.

My point? There are first rate schools with first rate teachers who provide an exciting, interesting learning environment in a school setting. There are also the dregs. Parental involvemnet is the key. A recent documentary on PBS followed the placement of a new principal in a failing school. It took a few years, but with the same student and parent group in a poor neighborhood, she managed to turn around the entire atmosphere and results in the school. It was fascinating. She involved the parents, even went door to door introducing herself to each of them. A special lady and ome very lucky children.

Watching her interact with her charges was fascinating especially when she was dealing with problems.

By the way, after years of lawsuits I won my case and my son's education was paid at Summit by the state.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:53 AM

"And if an able and experienced educator concludes from a lifetime in the field that grades, standardised tests, lesson plans, set times for subjects etc. are precisely the problem.......
"

I'm not clear what the relevance of this is. Are you saying that the answer to flaws in the education system is for everyone to educate their children at home...or simply pointing out that there are deficiencies, with which many people, teachers included, would probably agree?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:33 AM

And if an able and experienced educator concludes from a lifetime in the field that grades, standardised tests, lesson plans, set times for subjects etc. are precisely the problem.......

extensive reading list available for this, but Start with 'Dumbing us Down' by John Taylor gatto.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 08:00 AM

Some contributors have shared their experience of home education in America.

As has been pointed out, fifty states have allowed homeschooling and have provided laws for its implementation; nevertheless, many   states require that the parent can show some kind of records to show that they are providing adequate homeschooling for their children.

These are some reccomedations from an American site devoted to home schooling resources.

1. Daily Lesson Plans

show what subjects you have taught to your children. They will also show the way your children's lessons are progressing (from basic to intermediate to advanced).

..... could be important for school officials to learn what could be lacking from your schooling and in what area they could help you with.

2. Time Spent For Each Subject

Time spent for each subject is an indication of what subjects you have focused on and what subject your children might be having some problem absorbing

3. Diaries and Journals Updated Regularly

This can prove helpful in two ways. The first is you can keep track of what areas your children have already studied.
The second way it can help is that it will help you in knowing where your children are having an easy time and where they need more time and attention

4. Grades

Grades are more concrete records of your children's progress and proof can be proof of your children's achievements.

5. Portfolios

a collection of your children's works, from their exercises to their tests and anything that they have done while schooling.
For your older children.... other things that could be included are science tests and experiments and, if possible, a picture of your children's science projects.

6. Standardized Tests

There are several reasons why you would want your children to take a standardized test; including to help you with regards to subjects your children are having difficulty with.


Some structure for a learning experience when 'Love' is not enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:15 AM

"Being a teacher is a HUGE responsibilty..and as I have said before, I have nothing but respect for brilliant teachers. But the ones who damage, those who seek to belittle etc..are nothing more than bullies who have never left the school classroom, because they have worked out that 'being in control' is an open door for them to vent whatever causes their anger, onto innnocent young minds."

Yes, but the opposite is also true. Teachers also have the task of having to deal with the problems created by parents who have totally screwed up their children by the time they get to school. My daughter's teacher was discussing this with mrsleveller only the other day. It is, by no means, an isolated problem. Teachers have to have training and qualifications and are constantly supervised. Parents, on the other hand, need no more qualifications than the ability to reproduce.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:15 AM

My children learnt a great deal themselves, because they *wanted* to.

Ok Lizzie so you can't tell us how you taught your children. That's fair enough - but it might be a good idea if you had no role other than that of a caring mother - that you stopped banging on as if you know a lot about education. You clearly don't know much except how to criticise the education system.

Every single child is different, therefore they need to be taught in different ways. No-one knows their child better than their parent, or at least, that *should* be the case

I agree that every child is different and I agree they need to be taught in different ways.

But you also have to know what those different ways are. And recognise different learning styles. And you have to be able to share your successes and examine your failures. Since you clearly have had no failures I thought you might like to tell us the secret of your successes.

Clearly you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 07:03 AM

Any teacher that uses the word "Stupid" to a child needs a big kick up the arse and sent packing.

Nobody is stupid. Some people need different ways of being taught. That is a skill good teachers have.

Some people can sit in front of a computer and learn lessons on the websites or CD/DVD's

Others need a teacher to be there to give them hands on help, when they do not understand something.

The skill of a teacher, is to understand the person and explain things in a way that the person understands. My daughter becuase of her disability learns best when a new subject is introduced with visual aids and very basic ways of putting that over. I used to call that "getting down to the level of the person you are teaching".

Far too often, poor teachers talk over the heads of some people. Sometimes I swear blind that is done on purpose to try and hide their inabilties to teach. They basically and I think deliberately make the person being taught feel stupid, becuase they do not understand. The person then feels too stupid to ask questions and consequently doesn't learn.

In my life I have seen many very good teachers, not just in the school environment who have the gift for teaching, that paperwork and sticking to lesson plan will never beat. Oh just in case, I also have the D32/D33 assessors award (which is probably different now).

Two people who were not teaching in a school environment spring to mind in terms of having the gift to work and teach with children and fortunately they are not restricted by all the unecessary paperwork.

They didn't know I was assessing them at the time, I just did it on the spur of the moment as I saw them working with children.

Both of these will be known by Lincolnshire folkies.

The first is a very talented young man who is a folkie through and through and called Liam Robinson. I watched him as he did a party specially for my autistic daughter. There were about 20 children there. Within a minute he had the children listening intently to every word he spoke and every thing that he was showing and teaching to them. I haven't seen that sort of talent in many people. He is so good, I get him to go to a special need school every so often. They think he is brillant.

The other person teaches singing for a child choir which my daughter went to. I was invited to stay for the first evening to make sure things would be Ok for my daughter. This lady is called Sue Heron, who plays in a Ceildh Band called the Little Band. The way she was teaching these children and including them all was nothing short of inspirational.

They would be excellent role models to show how to engage and teach to young people.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:55 AM

Fucking up her children and leaving them dyslexic?

What the hell is that supposed to mean? As a person with learning disabilities myself, and also as a parent of someone with learning disabilities (someone who, by the way, is doing great in his adult life), I find that to be a profoundly ignorant thing to say.

Parents don't cause their children to be dyslexic (other than contributing their genes), and nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away.

Oh yes they CAN make it go away, insofar as it ceases to be much of an impediment to communication. There are several very effective ways of dealing with dyslexia - it's not a single condition, so you need to tailor the approach to the child. Results can be anything from outright cure (as when it's caused by some undiagnosed visual problem) to a whole battery of complex workarounds. Some schools have specialist units for it, resourced with all the equipment needed for any appropriate approach. Giving up on dyslexic kids and regarding them as academically ineducable is not one of their options, but it seems to be the one Lizzie has gone for.

(My girlfriend's son is so severely dysgraphic he can't write a shopping list and expect to read it himself. He went to a school that had useful ideas about workarounds - not all the ones I'd have liked them to try, but it worked well enough that's he's got a PhD and now a manager in the UK civil service earning twice as much as either Marion or I have ever made in our lives).

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:44 AM

... 'and among even the best of my students' parents, only a small number can imagine a different way to do things. " - John Taylor Gatto '

One thing that the Badman report attempts to address is that currently there are NO minimum requirements for home educators

As one EWO wrote on the BBC blog follwing an article about home schooling in the UK

"I'm an Education Welfare Officer working with children and families over school attendance.
Certainly there are home educators who are committed and doing a great job.
But, in my experience, there are a large number who are doing so for the wrong reasons and who do not have the skills to do so,
e.g. because they can't get the school of their choice; or can't get their child to school and are facing prosecution; or their relationship with school has broken down.
And often these parents are from poor educational backgrounds themselves.

But as the law allows all parents to home educate their children -not just the committed few - monitoring is vital to pick up those who aren't able to do so.'

A 'different' way of doing things may not necessarily be the 'best'

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:39 AM

a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ogCc8ObiwQ">John Taylor Gatto-'STATE CONTROLLED CONSCIOUSNESS on Youtube

This should be watched by every teacher in the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:36 AM

"It is the great triumph of compulsory government monopoly mass schooling that among even the best of my fellow teachers, and among even the best of my students' parents, only a small number can imagine a different way to do things. " - John Taylor Gatto

A quote passed on to me by a Free Thinking Person on this thread...

John Taylor Gatto is an incredible man. An award-winning teacher of 30 years standing, who has had the guts to stand up and say "This is all SO WRONG!"..then set about changing the way many of us have been 'taught' to think.

I have nothing but the deepest admiration for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:33 AM

You are missing the entire point, Dave.

Every single child is different, therefore they need to be taught in different ways. No-one knows their child better than their parent, or at least, that *should* be the case.

My children learnt a great deal themselves, because they *wanted* to.
We are born with a natural desire to learn, it is what makes the baby become a shaky toddler, as he tries to stagger around...it's what makes him realise where his mouth is, so that the food actually gets in there..it's what makes him clasp his fingers tight around something he wants to hold on to, it is what makes him turn his gurgles into words, sounds that he realises his mother is making....

Learning is inside us all. It is as natural a 'mechanism' as breathing, but...it is different in each of us as we become older, because the poet has a natural desire to be a poet, the scientist likewise, the dancer, artist, musician....All follow their paths.

School so often puts NO ENTRY signs on those paths though, forcing children down roads that are scary, frightening and totally alien to them.

We need to remove ALL those signs.

I was the inspiration for them, I am their mother, why should that not be so? Their father was also, both of us still are, in our own ways, but our children have grown older and now make their own decisions, but those decisions always centre around intelligence and kindness.


Leveller....yes, celebrating the success of school is a good thing, but you are missing something terribly important....

The FAILURES are left to fail their whole life through, unless someone picks them up and puts them back on the right road again.

NO school should fail ANY child. It is NOT what they are there for.

I have seen the failures. I have some in my own family. And the sense of terrible self-belief runs so deep that you'd not believe it.
You would not believe how easy it is for school to damage some children beyond repair, because the adult never really lets go of the voice of that teacher who made him feel he was stupid for not getting his maths correct, or stupid for making a grammatical mistake, or stupid simply for not understanding the way in which that teacher chose to teach.

Being a teacher is a HUGE responsibilty..and as I have said before, I have nothing but respect for brilliant teachers. But the ones who damage, those who seek to belittle etc..are nothing more than bullies who have never left the school classroom, because they have worked out that 'being in control' is an open door for them to vent whatever causes their anger, onto innnocent young minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:14 AM

It has been argued that the option to hometeach in the UK is available to everyone

Well in theory I suppose this is correct as there appears to be no minimum requirement as to ability.

In the 'real world' however this option is much more limited.

The Villian says that he is not in an 'elite' (depending on what definition of the word you choose) and makes it evident that he does not have the economic/social advantages normally associated with that term

It is obvious that his academic achievemnts however
"I have teacher training certificates and a very high level of teaching ICT with qualifications to prove it.
As well as that I have studied and spent a lot of time with Autistic specialists."
qualify him very well to take on the task of home education should he choose and, in addition, he has the emotional support of a spouse.

For a single parent the situation is very different .......

It seems likely that we will soon have a new government and, in either event, both major parties seem to be attempting to outdo each other in their cutting back support for single mothers

'Single mothers on benefits will be forced to work parttime once their youngest child reaches the age of four under the first of a series of "tough love" Tory welfare reforms.

Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Chris Grayling will today unveil proposals requiring primary school parents to seek a job of up to 20 hours a week.
Once their children go to secondary school they must be willing to work full-time, he will insist.
"It's the right thing for them, and for their children,"

David Cameron will flesh out a pledge to strip incapacity benefit from claimants who refuse to look for work.
He has studied Wisconsin in the U.S. which implemented the most aggressive reforms seen in the western world.
They ultimately cut benefit rolls by around 90 per cent.

Mr Cameron's basic approach is expected to be the same, with claimants denied welfare when they decline suitable jobs. Time limits could also be placed on key benefits.'

interview in Dec 2007


A greater percentage of single-parent families than two-parent families in the UK live below the poverty line and this is even higher for single mothers

Economic disadvantage is linked with lower academic achievement and increased behavioral problems among children
Fewer economic resources are also linked with residential instability, which further contributes to children's academic and behavioral difficulties.

Carol has quoted evidence (albeit from an organization with a vested interest) that Home schooled children in America score higher than the average state school pupil.

If one takes into account however that home teaching is more likely to be carried out in redidentially stable households where one parent may not be 'required' to work at the risk of furher economic hardship and has appropiate skills and knowledge to take on this task sucessfully then one might expect better results from education on a one to one basis as opposed to the apalling class sizes in state education

It seems likely therefore that a number of the children tested in state education may come from a wider variety of backgrounds than those of the parents who are able and choose to undertake education at home and who - in many states in America at least - are quite closely monitored in their task.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:10 AM

Spleen Cringe
Do you know what I like about your post!

You are thinking about what's best for your son. You have also recognised that there is a problem.

Far too often parents bury their heads in the sand and class their daughter or son as just being thick and leaving it at that. Or in the worst situation are embarressed or worried about what other people might think, so push it under the counter.

You just fight like hell to get your son diagnosed and then fight like hell to get everything you can that will help your son, through what is the most important time of his life as far as learning is concerned.

My best wishes to you and your son for the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:09 AM

"I could tell you other examples too, over and again, the same thing"

And I could tell you many, many examples to the contrary. Perhaps we should also celebrate the successes of the educational system instead of just castigating it for its failures. So, you see, what I said is not 'total crap', it's my experience (and that of my children and many others I know) being different from yours. As for the education system turning out clones - well, you couldn't find four more different kids than mine, so that is blatantly untrue.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 06:04 AM

A lesson to be learned there — always put 'Distinction' in full on a form - or at least 'Distnctn' or some such unmistakeable abbreviation, rather than D, which some idiot is liable to misinterpret as clearly happened here.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:40 AM

While I fall closer to FolkieDave's view than Lizzie's, it is certainly true that 'the System' does not cope at all well with people who follow unconventional paths. My daughter did not take 'A' levels but instead took a BTEC before going to University. On this BTEC she got 5 distinctions and, including her other qualifications, a total of 720 entrance points where the University required 220 as the minimum entrance, so she was accepted with no problem.

While checking up on allowances, bursaries and so on at the end of the second year, she discovered the 'D' distinction grades had been recorded as 'D' 'A' level grades. I.e. instead of 320 points it had been counted as 45. A simple admin error, purely caused because someone entered the Uni by a not-quite-conventional route. How they cope with really unconventional routes can be imagined.



(By-the-by one of my son's is dyslexic, had a hard time in primary but it was spotted in secondary and he has now graduated and has a good job.)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:40 AM

This is far too complex and important an issue to be reduced to entrenched positions and mudslinging. The one thing we should all agree on is that what ever solution is right for each individual child, the needs of the child are paramount and should always be put before other considerations (parents' ideological positions, prejudices, bete noirs etc).

My son's school is great for average kids. However they are rubbish at meeting the needs of kids with additional learning needs (such as my son who is a bit too young to test but has many of the classic signs of dyslexia) or kids who are especially gifted. Ofsted panned them for it in the last inspection and so far the reaction seems to be to bury their heads in the sand and try to minimise the problems some of the kids have got in order to wish them away.

The rub is, that my son loves going to school. He likes all the class teachers he has had, (and especially likes the teacher who gives him his paltry 20 minutes three times a week of specialist group work), has a great set of pals, gets loads of encouragement and praise for his work etc. The downside is that he is starting to become aware he is falling behind his peers and trying to do the work is something that absolutely exhausts him. Things will probably get worse as spelling tests and so on are introduced.

Personally I wouldn't want to take him out of school - he's got great social skills and a daily opportunity to use them - and also I don't believe I have the knowledge or skills to give him a well rounded education myself. Our solution is to try to find him additional specialist support ourselves - and luckily we're able to manage this financially. We don't want to get him tested for dyslexia privately at this stage because even if the test is the same one used by the LEA, they won't recognise it and will insist on retesting themselves (though there is evidence that the test is less accurate second time around).

To some extent we have to wait and see, and be led by what our son needs. I'm just glad that in spite of the fact he has a school that couldn't manage a special needs budget to save its life, at least he has good, caring, skilled teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:26 AM

If you read your newspapers, or use your brain, you'll find that MANY employers are now looking very seriously at home educated people as prospective employees,

No I haven't seen that Lizzie. I have Googled to see if I could find where it says that in a newspaper, without any success.

So perhaps you would be kind enough to point me in the direction of articles I have missed so I can judge what they say for myself.

And a quiet word in your ear. Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:14 AM

Gee Whizz, Dave...You drove me nuts on the BBC as 'Folky Grim' but you drive me even more nuts over here, with your campaign to undermine me, my kids, my outlook on life.

Never ever used "Folky Grim". You are clearly thinking of someone else.

I am delighted at your daughter's success - as I am with all the people I have taught. I am always disappointed with those who do not succeed - but I and the rest of the teaching profession aren't perfect.

What I have asked time and time again - without success I might add, is that you share the way you have brought up your children with people who work in this field so that we can all benefit from it, since you clearly believe that you have been succesful and you have made it very very clear - much more succesful than the teaching profession.

By sharing I mean - how you have taught reading, writing, and so on. Maybe you never taught it and your children learnt it by osmosis. Maybe you don't feel that they needed to read and write and didn't bother. All I ask is that you share this with us.

Did you structure the day to make sure certain subjects or learning was covered for example. Having an unstructured day or having a partly structured day or having no structure at all.

Of course you don't have to share your secrets with anyone.

But don't you think that is a little selfish since it is clear that lots of people would (presumably) benefit.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 05:05 AM

"Of course parents don't cause dyslexia but it's a good idea to ensure that a dyslexic child receives the necessary help and support - preferably from properly trained people. Teachers nowadays are tained to spot children with Special Educational Needs (and this includes especially gifted children) and have an obligation to ensure these kids get the support they need in the classroom, even if that means bringing in additional help. Even classroom assistants are now being trained to work with SEN often because, unsurprisingly, their own children have SEN. I suspect that it would be harder for home-educated children to get the level of support they can in schools, but this probably varies from one local authority to another."


Total crap, levels, sorry.

At 7 years old my son was being publicly ridiculed for the mistakes in his spelling tests...by his teacher.

Just a few weeks back I went with a friend of mine to help support her talking to her son's teachers, about him being dyslexic. They'd tested him at primary school and found him to be borderline...she disagreed with this result. So did I. I knew ages back that her son is dyslexic, his Mum too.

She had a test done privately, cost her a small fortune..and guess what? Yup, the tests showed her son does have dyslexia, on a greater scale too than she was told by the school.

Interestinly, the school will NOT accept the word of this eminent Educational Psychologist, so they want him to be tested again by their man, who is, of course, the same man who gave him a very short test last time round. The private test last for far, far longer and is far more detailed. But...they don't want to know.

They told her that he had symptoms that 96% of the kids have in their school and didn't really see much to worry about. Her son worries though, he gets desperately worried because he can't keep up, has trouble writing, gets worn out with it, totally worn out (same as my son does, same as my brother did/does)

Ben, another friend's son, who has Aspergers.....found on the outside windowsill of his bedroom, at just 10 years old, wanting to jump off because school was causing him such distress. He doesn't understand other kids, finds being around them deeply stressful etc..etc..etc...and the school did NOTHING!

I told her to take him out, there and then..and she did.

She then home educated him for a while, whilst searching desperately for another school that would take him. They all said the same thing to her, that they couldn't help him in the way he needed because they didn't have the staff, didn't have the money.

She's very lucky though, because her father-in-law is wealthy, and so, he paid for Ben to go into one of the few specialised private schools where they take only high funtioning autistic (asperger) and severely dyslexic children. He's calmed down, a bit...and they don't put pressure on the children to get loads of examns, although they can take them if they so choose.

But..if Ben hadn't had a rich grandpa, he'd probably have jumped off that windowsill by now, just another victim of a System that doesn't give a shit..

I'm not saying that some people within that system don't care, because some of them do, passionately, but The System itself is only geared for square pegs in square holes, and if you are the wrong 'shape' then I'm afraid that life isn't good.

I could tell you other examples too, over and again, the same thing...the quiet, shy, sensitive, overly intelligent, struggling to survive kids...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:50 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:34 PM

Who said that and where? I missed it.

You did.


Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:50 AM

"And there are some who say that their home educated child with no visible and publicly recognised qualifications, are ignored by employers and blame the employer for misunderstanding their child."


Right, smart arse, let's get this straight.

The difficulties my daughter has is with the stupid employers who will only accept people into their system 'on line'.....and nowadays there are many dimwits who've chosen this road. They assume that everyone has been 'heducated' the same way, so they don't have any boxes for 'home education' on their internet forms, nor do they have anywhere to explain why you may have *chosen* to take no examinations, because they are part of The System and what they do NOT want is Free-Thinking People working for them, because hell, they might start to complain about the terrible working conditions most of the 'human resources' have to work under.

For your information, my daughter actually has TWO jobs, and not only that, but she was head-hunted by The National Trust when an opportunity arose for her there because they knew her, knew she was intelligent, erudite, kind, trustworthy...and the complete opposite of a vindictive prat, like er.....?....(fill in the blindingly obvious, Dave)....

The people she now works for are big names in 'the world'....and they have fallen over themselves to get her, choosing her above many other applicants, in this Desperate For A Job world.

If you read your newspapers, or use your brain, you'll find that MANY employers are now looking very seriously at home educated people as prospective employees, as they've worked out they are 'different' from the Factory Farm Kids, many of whom are so unhappy and lost that all they want to do is dress like tarts, or tart chasers, and spend most of their waking moments filling their Lost Souls with alcohol, to numb the pain of a short, young life lived entirely in The System, where they are purely their exam results...and not a PERSON!

Gee Whizz, Dave...You drove me nuts on the BBC as 'Folky Grim' but you drive me even more nuts over here, with your campaign to undermine me, my kids, my outlook on life.

You are *exactly* the kind of teacher that drove my daughter almost to the brink of giving up on life.

I fought damn hard to drag her back, DANMED hard...and I can assure you that home education is also bloody hard at times...and no I have never lived off the tax payer during this time, having two jobs myself since being divorced and surviving on one salary, that of my now ex, when I wasn't. I've scrimped and scraped all my life...and I'm the daughter of a man who had to do exactly the same....but you know what, my bloody wonderful Dad taught me what it was to be Loved...and he gave me, without even knowing it, such a strong inner core to my Spirit. It was that spirit that helped me to take the step of removing my daughter from the clutches of people who didn't give a shit about her, and back into a world where she could eventually start to find herself again.

You spoke, earlier in another thread, of some of the adults you teach, with regards to you being a teacher of dyslexic children..and you said that some were former criminals, people with many problems etc...but you haven't realised that the whole damn REASON that they ended up in that world is BECAUSE of the System that you so heartily praise!

If you are told, as a young person, as a small child, that you are lazy, stupid, slow....that you don't try hard when you are actually trying four times bloody harder than anyone else in that room, then you start to get angry!

If you are told off for wriggling in your seat, when wriggling is the only thing that STOPS *your* world from spinning around, as you will undoubtedly have read in your Ronald D. Davis book 'The Gift of Dyslexia' then you will start to become totally confused, even angrier and completely fucked off with a world that does NOT care, despite all it's "Oh, we're SO understanding of dyslexia/dyspraxia/autism/aspergers" charter...

School doesn't give a shit for the round pegs in the square holes, because ALL it wants is square pegs in square holes.


Now grow up and get off my back...because you are starting to look like some kind of stalker.

You will NEVER truly understand dyslexia, because you are not *inside* it. All you try to do is make *us* like *you*, when we were never EVER meant to be like You.

We are all born with different brains, wired up to different places, for different reasons....

School is trying, more than ever before, to wire us all up the same..and when you get crossed wires, you are in danger of an explosion!

That explosion is what is happening 'out there' in School Land.

We are free of it all...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 04:28 AM

Of course parents don't cause dyslexia but it's a good idea to ensure that a dyslexic child receives the necessary help and support - preferably from properly trained people. Teachers nowadays are tained to spot children with Special Educational Needs (and this includes especially gifted children) and have an obligation to ensure these kids get the support they need in the classroom, even if that means bringing in additional help. Even classroom assistants are now being trained to work with SEN often because, unsurprisingly, their own children have SEN. I suspect that it would be harder for home-educated children to get the level of support they can in schools, but this probably varies from one local authority to another.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Oct 09 - 02:24 AM

Seconded (or thirded). I have a son who is dyslexic. Neither of his parents is dyslexic, and nor is his sister. It's just one of those things. Still, maybe I could have really fucked up and made my son black and homosexual as well...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:53 PM

"I don't see Lizzie taking responsibility for fucking up with her children and leaving them dyslexic"

Jack, to put it as bluntly as possible, you are a fucking moron if you think dyslexia in a child is a reflection of anyone's parenting skills. Please take the time to educate yourself about the causes of the condition before you make any more similarly stupid comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 09:09 PM

Fucking up her children and leaving them dyslexic?

What the hell is that supposed to mean? As a person with learning disabilities myself, and also as a parent of someone with learning disabilities (someone who, by the way, is doing great in his adult life), I find that to be a profoundly ignorant thing to say.

Parents don't cause their children to be dyslexic (other than contributing their genes), and nobody can make dyslexia or any other learning disability go away. How absolutely bloody ignorant does someone have to be to make such a stupid, judgemental, and self-righteous remark.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:30 PM

Flkuedave said.
So taking a child who can't read to a child who can read. Taking someone, from when they can't speak a foreign language to one who can speak a foreign language? No-one can do this?

FolkieDave, please apply a little intelligence to your reading. Both the examples you give are about teaching, not proof through recording. But even then, no-one knows ezxactly How the learning happens. I worked in a special school where, despite expert tuition, some kids failed to learn to read for years. Some then spurted around adolescence, it wasn't because they suddenly got a teacher who had methods that they could record and give in evidence.
   I could go on endlessly about stories of successes and failures in learning to read, and the possible reasons for this, but simplistic assertions, which you seem to be fond of, have no place.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:05 PM

I've noticed that with a lot of teachers, if the child does well, the teachers take the credit, but if the child doesn't do well, they blame the parents. At least the home schooling parent takes full responsibility for the job they do.

I don't see Lizzie taking responsibility for fucking up with her children and leaving them dyslexic.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:39 PM

I saw the part where someone said their daughter has to fight twice as hard as other people to get employers to see her because she doesn't have exam results to show them, but it looks like that person also said that their daughter makes a very good impression on prospective employers once she does succeed in getting them to see her (after working twice as hard).

This doesn't look like a complaint to me. It looks like the words of a proud parent bragging about their kid's accomplishments and determination in the face of obstacles. It looks like a parent taking responsibility and credit.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:39 PM

My father and the family thank you for taking way too much time to answer what was basically and yes or no question. Actually things are done very much the same world wide...if you want something you pay for it, that's basic economics.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:34 PM

Who said that and where? I missed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:07 PM

've noticed that with a lot of teachers, if the child does well, the teachers take the credit, but if the child doesn't do well, they blame the parents. At least the home schooling parent takes full responsibility for the job they do.

And there are some who say that their home educated child with no visible and publicly recognised qualifications, are ignored by employers and blame the employer for misunderstanding their child.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:58 PM

I have a question for you Folkiedave You, I understand have a radio programme promoting folk music. Do the British taxpayers fund the radio station in any way, shape, or form?
Just asking about the dispersal of tax-payers money.

Thanks for your question Sam. Delighted to go into detail.

I do have a radio programme which plays folk music for two hours each week.

I research, produce and present that programme. Takes (at a rough guess) ten to twelve hours per week plus two hours each Friday morning. This week's show will have an interview with Jackie Oates, and music from her, the Unthanks, Dogan Mehmet, the Poozies, Gerry McNeice and The Bowhouse Quintet. It will, when I have decided have a traditional singer, a chorus song and a funny piece. In total about twenty records.

I call artists and their managers, I spend time with interviewees on the telephone and I go to gigs specifically to speak and interview artists. I purchase records specifically to play on the programme. A good example is the latest Topic release. Cost me just over £40.00.

Let me tell you how much I have been paid for this more or less weekly programme in the (coming up to) two years I have been doing it.

Zilch, nothing, nada, nowt.

None of the people who do programmes on the station get paid in anyway shape or form. there are about a hundred of us presenters over a normal week. We play "minority" music and present "minority" programmes. We cover community, sport, folk music, roots music, etc etc.

There are three part-time employees. One is CEO and does training and administration. One does advertising and programming. One does technical things. They get paid around the minimum wage. It is run by a Board of (voluntary) Directors.

The station comes under a whole group of arts organisations locally who receive some funding from a whole host of sources (including minimal funding from the council and hence the taxpayer).

There was some lottery funding for specific projects in the past.

I can't go into great detail because to be honest I don't know fully.

But like most community radio stations we rely on a lot of goodwill and minimal funding.

We are having a painting session this weekend to spruce up the environment of the place. All volunteers and we are bringing our own food to eat, drink to drink and paint to paint. Care to come along?

Now you might thing getting all those programmes and all that work for next to nothing from the taxpayer is bad value for money. Most people would regard it as a very low cost way of providing radio for people who are not normally represented on radio.

But hey ho.........whatever floats your boat.

How do they do things where you live?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 06:27 PM

Are you able to show progress from your methods?

Dave, no-one can do this.

So taking a child who can't read to a child who can read. Taking someone, from when they can't speak a foreign language to one who can speak a foreign language? No-one can do this?

Of course you can measure progress in education. Whatever method is used to reach that goal and however long a period, it is possible to measure progress.

It isn't the be all and end all. But don't tell me it isn't possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:43 PM

I've noticed that with a lot of teachers, if the child does well, the teachers take the credit, but if the child doesn't do well, they blame the parents. At least the home schooling parent takes full responsibility for the job they do.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Goose Gander
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:37 PM

Homeschooling certainly isn't for everyone, but it is an option that must be kept open. Somewhere between no oversight and the total ban enforced by the (nearly always wrong) Germans, there should be a range of possible programs.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:19 PM

FolklieDave wrote
That's interesting. How does a single working mother home educate? I suppose it is possible - but not the easiest thing in the world.

No its not easy, but neither is it easy for a single parent to hold down a job. I did this for many years by enlisting the aid of others.
Homeschoolers often work in communities, and support each other...perhaps taking a group of kids together, with those parents at work chipping in for materials etc.

Where there's a will there's a way, no matter where you live.

he also wrote..Are you able to show progress from your methods?

Dave, no-one can do this. The huge amount of records kept gives the illusion of precision. The same methods can have hugely different results within the same class, and youngsters often learn despite the methods used.Keeping a photo log of activities interspersed with examplea of what the kids actually produced, or a selection of their views doea the job. I know schools that do this with condidence, and Ofsted love it.They only hammer people who seem to have little idea of why they are going through these time consuming motions.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 12:17 PM

Read Folkiedave's criticism of Lizzie Cornish perhaps using taxpayers money for the education of her children. I have a question for you Folkiedave You, I understand have a radio programme promoting folk music. Do the British taxpayers fund the radio station in any way, shape, or form?
Just asking about the dispersal of tax-payers money.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

Some more questions about home education - a fascinating subject and one on which we have someone who has done it and is able to guide those of us without their vision. I am eager to learn from their experience. Then if either of my daughters want to home educate I might be able to refer them to some of the work done already and (hopefully) detailed on here.

Lizzie - one of the complaints that teachers make constantly is that there is too much record keeping and not enough money to pay for things.

Did you keep any records of what your child (ren) do or did eacn day or each week? Projects covered? Things learnt? Are you able to show progress from your methods?

And apart from the EWO dropping off a pile of National Geographic magazines (nice you wanted her to learn from an American magazine). what other resources were you given? Purchased? Clearly you have a computer, do they? Do you share one with them?

Have you had massive financial resources or are you living off the taxpayer?

Since you have no problems telling us how bad teachers and schools are, and how succesful you have been it would be really helpful if you could tell us.

It may be possible to save some money and get more people to do what you do. Think of the savings on light and heat. (Mind - they would be transferred to the home educator - maybe not such a good idea).

Have all the local tradespeople been as kind to your son as the builder you have talked about? I have to tell you around here they are too busy making a living to deal with young people - they leave that to schools and colleges.

But hey ho I must be nice to live in a place like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM

The people I know who have been driven to home schooling ......and single working mothers.

That's interesting. How does a single working mother home educate? I suppose it is possible - but not the easiest thing in the world.

I have met a number of home educated people, indeed as I mentioned earlier my daughter's partner is one. But the ones I have known have all had a structure to what they were doing. This to ensure that for example reading and writing skills were covered.

Lizzie's daughter for example is currently reading for an OU degree. I am genuinely intrigued to know how she was taught (by Lizzie as I understand it) to read. I also understand that she is dyslexic - though I might be wrong on that one - but I again I am genuinely interested to know what strategies are used in an educational context to deal with any difficulties this might bring.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:40 AM

Forgive the flippancy, but I can't quite stop myself wondering if Lizzie has children called Hey and No.

To go with Nonny........

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 08:07 AM

Anyway, its certainly noe elitist. The people I know who have been driven to home schooling include people on benefits and single working mothers. Home education doesn't mean staying at home with mum! Education otherwise helps people to come together in communities opf interest, helps them to make use of what is freely available in the community, and helps people develop self study skills. For those who choose it, it is right for them. The kids often re-enter mainstream ed at 6th form or college level when there is at least a reasonable chance that they will be trteated like adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:58 AM

I'll agree to that.

To return to the debate:

Lizzie mentions that, for her daughter, it is a particular struggle to get interviews. Prospective employers can't be blamed for this - we have to interact with other people's requirement and perceptions throughout our lives, otherwise the whole world seems out of step with us. A formal education is the key to this and it forms the grounding for the life-long process of learning.

A previous poster mentions autodidacticism (hope that's how it's spelled) and I agree that this is the essence of life-long learning. If I can cite the example of my grandfather to demonstrate this – he was the ultimate autodidact; after leaving school at the age of 12 to work as a plough-boy, he became one of the most knowledgeable people I have ever met on a wide range of subjects, soaking up knowledge right up to his death at the age of 94. The point is that he had been taught not WHAT to learn, but HOW to learn (cue well-known quote from Dr Johnson about two types of knowledge). Today, the most effective way of doing this is, I believe, through our tested, refined and constantly monitored education system. Whilst allowing everyone to pursue their individual interests throughout life, it at least means that we stand a better chance of being able to communicate with each other on an equal footing on at least a basic level.

My own experience of the school system in the 50s and 60s was not a particularly happy one, but I really do think that things have come on leaps and bounds, especially in the last few years. OK, it's not perfect, but what is in life?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 30 Sep 09 - 07:10 AM

I don't think I am going back over 100 and odd posts again. Lets just beg to differ.