BS: Home Education UK

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 05:00 PM

Parents only put their kids in ties, because the schools dictate they should.

Ban ties altogether.

Bring back pirate shirts!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:58 PM

I should just clarify that Pete Seeger *himself* wasn't er...under the bedclothes with me, just the radio from which his voice was reaching me... :0) Teeheee!

School taught me that I wanted to be anywhere BUT school!

"Your brother is like you. He has a fine brain, but he's too lazy to use it."

....my French teacher, to my French class......

Course, she was so dumb that she never knew Leigh had dyslexia. He didn't either, because no other person picked up on it either, not until he was 31...and then...it was me. "You're taking ages to read that letter, Leigh, bung it over here" says I. "I have trouble reading, the letters jump around a lot and I have to make them sit still, but I *can* read." said he...

A lifetime of school and no-one ever bothered to ask him if he was OK, if he was struggling...

Now, if he'd been in my school above, they'd have picked up on his woodwork abilities, his artistic abilities, his uncanny way of making money...Oh, the antique and second hand shops I was dragged around on Harrow-on-the-Hill, as my brother bought second edition books from one shop, then sold them, at a profit, to the next shop along the road...

To his teachers though, he was stupid, because he didn't fit in the 'academic' box. Pah! My brother was no more stupid than they were, he just wasn't 'made' for school, that was all. Had he been Home Educated, he'd probably have been a Millionaire in his early 20s, but as it was, he was lacking in confidence about many things, angry and bitter, after years of being told how lazy and stupid he was...

Hey, that's school though, pick you up on the faults, not the amazing things that make you, YOU.

Ho hum.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM

"OK, you want me to send my children to school?"

Actually with the exception of Jack everyone is saying that parents should have the right to home school their children if they choose. Of course, this is a discussion on a website and is not legally binding.


And once again you are off and running spouting a lot of nonsense that in no way makes for a logical discussion.

Only one for instance:
"Get rid of ANYONE who thinks that children should wear ties!"
What about the parents (Mormons, for instance) who think their children should wear ties? And what about the parents who want their children to wear bra tops or Speedos? What about nudists? Who decides, Lizzie? You?
No dress code except your own?

Hop down off that soapbox and contribute. Do you rant on like this when you are teaching your children?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:55 PM

True. I was being mischievous, I'm afraid!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:54 PM

I think the 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM post is a pretty fair description of Waldorf Schools. I would love to have been able to send my son to one of those.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:51 PM

selective. hardly

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:51 PM

To be fair, though, there's more than enough people who attended school outside the home who are also guilty of using hyperbole to make their points.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:49 PM

Pete Seeger will always be associated with Tickytacky boxes, because he used to sing it to me, under the bedclothes....and I used to wonder about this song...about those who lived in the litte houses, the pink one and the yellow one....

Junior loves Pete Seeger too.

Bruce has Malvina Reynolds on his Myspace page, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM

For what it's worth, going to school taught me to express my opinions succinctly and to make points without resorting to hyperbole...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM

OK, you want me to send my children to school? Then you build me a school that works!

Fill it with people of ALL ages, mix the children up, let them have ONE school, all their school-life long, where they are like one family, all growing together, staying friends together. Let adults who want to, learn alongside the children, so that kids see that learning is a life-long joy. Let the little ones help the older ones and the older ones care for the little ones.

Give them tests in Kindness, Tolerance, Compassion, Love.

Make their Sex Education into Love Education.

Teach them that every single one of them is valued.
Teach them that every single one of them has a skill and tell them that is why they are in school, so that the caring teachers can help them discover that skill and build upon it...

Give them nothing but confidence, even if you have to criticise what they do, you do it kindly and constructively.

Throw out any teacher who tells any child that their work is 'crap'....as my daughter was told about her beautiful artwork, because the damage that one person can do to another, especially when the person receiving that criticism is a very young person, can last for years and years and years, sometimes even a life time!

Get rid of ANYONE who thinks that children should wear ties!

Get rid of ANYONE who thinks that children should still all day!
(would you make your DOG sit still all day?)

Get rid of ANYONE who thinks they are better than the children, because they have one of the most special jobs in the world, nurturing the next generation, and should realise that every single child is a Spirit-in-Waiting.

Throw out crap lessons that teach nothing!

Bring in Bean Bags to sit on...

Let the children drink water whenever they want.

Let them go to the toilet, whenever they want, without having to ask, and let them have a bathroom that is decent, well looked after and cared for, preferably at the back of the classroom itself.

Sing with them.

Play with them.

LAUGH with them!

Let them run free every other lesson.

Throw out all the crappy lessons and replace them with Freedom To Be Children lessons...

Our 'puppies' are being kept in 'kennels' throughout their formative years, with no toys to play with, no bones to chew, no fields to run in. They are kept on permanent leashes, so that 'The State' can be in control at all times, tugging them back into their kennels whenever they should try to get out.

If we treated our animals in the same way we treat our children, then the RSPCA would be worn out!

Let them jump and shout and run and play..and then you'll find they'll want to sit down and read too, have quiet times....because children need space too..and sometimes, especially for the quiet children, space is the most important thing of all.

If a child loves sport, great....but don't make all children play sport. Geez, I hated it! All those competitive people getting angry around me, simply because I didn't catch the rounders ball??? Weird!

Build me a school which believes in the words of this man....



"Curiosity has no important place in my work, only conformity."

"School is a twelve-year jail sentence where bad habits are the only curriculum truly learned."


"I don't think we'll get rid of schools any time soon, certainly not in my lifetime, but if we're going to change what's rapidly becoming a disaster of ignorance, we need to realize that the school institution "schools" very well, though it does not "educate"; that's inherent in the design of the thing. It's not the fault of bad teachers or too little money spent. It's just impossible for education and schooling ever to be the same thing."


"I've come to believe that genius is an exceedingly common human quality, probably natural to most of us... I began to wonder, reluctantly, whether it was possible that being in school itself was what was dumbing them down. Was it possible I had been hired not to enlarge children's power, but to diminish it? That seemed crazy on the face of it, but slowly I began to realize that the bells and the confinement, the crazy sequences, the age-segregation, the lack of privacy, the constant surveillance, and all the rest of national curriculum of schooling were designed exactly as if someone had set out to *prevent* children from learning how to think and act, to coax them into addiction and dependent behavior."


"...'How will they learn to read?' you ask, and my answer is 'Remember the lessons of Massachusetts.' When children are given whole lives instead of age-graded ones in cellblocks, they learn to read, write, and do arithmetic with ease, if those things make sense in the kind of life that unfolds around them."


"It's absurd and anti-life to be part of a system that compels you to sit in confinement with people of exactly the same age and social class. That system effectively cuts you off from the immense diversity of life and the synergy of variety; indeed it cuts you off from your own past and future, sealing you in a continuous present much the same way television does..."


"Whatever an education is, it should make you a unique individual, not a conformist; it should furnish you with an original spirit with which to tackle the big challenges; it should allow you to find values which will be your road map through life; it should make you spiritually rich, a person who loves whatever you are doing, wherever you are, whomever you are with; it should teach you what is important, how to live and how to die."




"By preventing a free market in education, a handful of social engineers - backed by the industries that profit from compulsory schooling: teacher colleges, textbook publishers, materials suppliers, et al. - has ensured that most of our children will not have an education, even though they may be thoroughly schooled."

...ALL quotes from John Taylor Gatto


....and then I will send my children back to school.

Basically, build me a school that treats children with dignity and respect, no less than you expect from your job, and then, watch them blossom!

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:46 PM

But missed several key points. Selective reading to make your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:44 PM

sorry SINSHULL I hate to disabuse you of your favourite notion that nobody reads ALL the posts except you. I read every single one the more interesting twice

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:42 PM

Mine certainly did. But I have to admit the quality of education at the local Catholic School was light years ahead of the public school. It did not outweigh the physical abuse that went on.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:34 PM

Little Boxes was written by Malvina Reynolds.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:32 PM

A lot of parents who send their kids to religious schools also do it to protect them from being taught things that are against their beliefs. I know a lot of people who are that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:30 PM

Sigh...more baseless claptrap. Your opinion only.

Sigh...Decimation of Motherhood...claptrap

Sigh...Little Junior is really down in Wetherspoons, watching the Hen Night Girlies drink their cocktails through penis shaped straws ...how do they manage to fit every public school child in that little club? And don't they check age - I find it hard to believe that 8 year olds are even interested in Hen Girls.
Sigh...
"And they're all made out of tickytacky and they all look just the same.."

All except you, right Lizzie?

Sigh

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:27 PM

'No, Emma.

In my 'story' 'junior' piped up about Pete Seeger's song, because he picked up on the 'tickytacky' word. As I wrote above, those words ARE in the song.

My facts were entirely correct.

Your interpretation of them, entirely wrong.



Thank you.'

I give up! what's the point of attempting any sensible discussion ?

Ok Lizzie 'junior' got it wrong - ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM

That was my experience too, Carol. The home schooling parents I know took their children's education VERY seriously. In addition, the education included things like cooking a meal, cleaning laundry, budgeting, etc while not taking away from academics.

In Catholic School, religion colored every single aspect of our education. I can remember a nun telling us that it was a mortal sin for President Eisenhower not to take care of his health because he was president and responsible for the free world. For me it was only a venial sin - who cared if I died, I guess. LOL

The parents I know who home school for religious reasons seemed (I can't say I know) more interested from protecting their children from ideas that contradicted their religious beliefs. Valid, in my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:24 PM

Oh...and my Facebook page is very different to the norm, Sinsull, because it's about the music....or at least, it will be, once again, when I get it more on track, having cancelled it for the umpteenth time again recently...

I certainly don't do Facebook (or anything else) in the 'conventional' way.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:20 PM

Sigh.......

My children wear clothes, yes. But they don't live their life to the Corporate Boxes...and Education has become just another Corporate Industry, which was born with the birth of the National Curriculum. The NC has been screwing up children and teachers alike, ever since its birth, together with producing a multi-million dollar industry of 'How To Get Your Child Through School Exams', which now line the entire walls of many of our bookshops.

It also gave birth to the Parental Worry Situation...

This of course, has been exacerbated by the Decimation of Motherhood, where mothers, riddled with worry and guilt over leaving Little Junior at the Breakfast Club, because they no longer have the time to feed their own children, can now declare, with pride and certainty that "My Little Junior is doing SO well at school! He's studying for 37 GCSEs...and after that he's going for 11 AS Levels, 52 A Levels AND a BSc degree in Football! We are just SO damned proud of him!"

Of course, Little Junior is really down in Wetherspoons, watching the Hen Night Girlies drink their cocktails through penis shaped straws (I kid you not!)....whilst he thinks "Is this shit REALLY what my life is all about? Is this REALLY *why* I was born?"

But, it takes away the anxiety of the over-stressed, over-anxious working parent, who knows in their heart that actually something is Megaenormously WRONG with the way kids are these days, but hasn't a clue how to live with it...

"And they're all made out of tickytacky and they all look just the same.."

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:18 PM

I think if parents feel that their children are better served in the schools, they should definitely keep them there. But I also think it's very important for there to be the option for parents to home school their kids if they feel or believe that their kids would be better served that way.

By the way, there were no curriculum requirements or required standards for the people who were home schooling in the area where I lived when I was doing that, but all of the children I met who were being home schooled were getting very good instruction, academically. For the ones from very religious households, they were getting their education tinged with a significant amount of religious training, but not really to any greater extent than kids do in private parochial school settings.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:16 PM

Butterandcheese - you too need to read all of every post before you jump in half cocked.
Lizzie wrote:
"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together."


I see no mention of anyone accusing homeschoolers of being abusive parents. Nor has anyone said they can't add two and two. Several said just the opposite. I do see and agree with a post that homeschooling can leave children unprotected from abusive parents if they are kept out of public sight.

This is what Jack said:
"Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks, and the idea of allowing anybody that weird to have total control over a child's experiential environment gave me the willies."


and most disagreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:11 PM

"no Lizzie it's simply a question of getting your facts correct before you start one of your 'passionate' posts."


No, Emma.

In my 'story' 'junior' piped up about Pete Seeger's song, because he picked up on the 'tickytacky' word. As I wrote above, those words ARE in the song.

My facts were entirely correct.

Your interpretation of them, entirely wrong.



Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM

"We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many."

Really?

Do you or anyone in your family work for a living? Have your children been vaccinated? Do you pay taxes? Vote? Obey the law, any law? Have a driver's license? Insurance of any type? Do your children wear clothes or run around naked? Sneakers or T shirts? Do they see a dentist occasionally? Do they know who Superman is? Batman? Disney? Sesame Street? Michael Jackson?
What do they read? Any video games?
You hav a Facebook page, the ultimate parallel line trap of the masses.

Never????
Another hyperbole?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:59 PM

from Jack Campin

I've met a few parents involved in this over the years. Without exception they were all neurotic obsessional cranks

SINSHULL what was that you said Say it out loud so all the class can hear...something about nobody said what? Speak up, don't mumble

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:58 PM

One of the reasons I would not want to pull my daughter out of Secondary school, is becuase she has to be among people wether she likes it or not.
If she was at home, she would be in her bedroom most of the time, not wanting to meet people.

Unfortunately one of the problems with Autistic people.

She is bright academically, but lacks the basic skills to survive in the real world.

She is not happy about having to go to school, but touch wood she does not complain and goes becuase that is what she is expected to do.

I have very close links with the special Needs unit and the top people in the school and we have just held a meeting to decide how to bring the basic skills side of things into her school life. It was a very productive meeting with lots of good ideas and things that will be done.

So although in some ways I would like to do home education, I still think the balance is in favour of her going to school.

We moved to a very rural area to try and help her and we reviewed the schools well before we moved there. She loves where we live.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:33 PM

Thank you Carol. That was precisely my point. A killing spree by a home schooled child is no more indicative of the norm than an unhappy experience in public school(US public sschool in this context) is.

Lizzie seems to see only black and white (and before you go off on me I don't mean racially). Your public school experience was bad so all public schools are bad. Your home schooling experience was good so all homeschooling is good.
Then you take the giant leap that anyone who does not home school is bad/lazy/unloving/etc etc etc. And any child in public school is both unhappy and hopelessly restricted in his thinking.

In the process you belittle schools, teachers and students and always with borderline hysterical "passion".
One person stated that in his experience home schooling parents are somewhat neurotic/odd. At least six, including me, described different experiences. But on you harp:
"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together. We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many.

Yes, there are a few Home Ed parents who are a little odd, but then there are also many In The System Ed parents who are also odd. It's life. But most of us are doing this out of love, and desperation too, because without doing it, some of us would have lost our children to suicide and depression...and NO-ONE, NO 'INSTITUTION' has the right to cause that, just because so many of us have become so indoctrinated into never being able to see 'another way'."

Again, why the histrionics? Why the name calling and belittling? Most here are trying to have an intelligent discussion of an important issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 03:02 PM

no Lizzie it's simply a question of getting your facts correct before you start one of your 'passionate' posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:59 PM

errr no - not exactly
Little Boxes

any more 'facts'?


"...and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same..."

..is what I was getting at, but I guess it went over the heads of some...so intent are they is scoring points..

It's a 'competitive school thing'...maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:58 PM

I don't think we can really use killing sprees as an indication of anything at all in this context. If we consider it in the home schooling context, then we will have to also address the problem of the killing sprees in public schools in the US that have become so common, the schools are forced to have actual security guards patrolling their campuses and require students to wear photo ID while on the school campus at all times.

Also, of the parents whose children are being schooled because of learning disabilities, those children would have poor social skills regardless of where they were schooled. That just comes with the territory of having learning disabilities, but that problem is made much worse by the school systems. That's why the majority of young people in reform schools have learning disabilities. The schools are really messing them up.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:26 PM

"So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together."

You need to re-read ALL of the above posts. Not one person has stated that.

"Why the hell have you all given up, because 'someone' decided that only an 'official' teacher can teach!"

Who has given up? Why the histrionics?

Do you home school your children? Fine. It is a legal and perfectly acceptable option. Again - read the posts above.

I didn't. But I was deeply involved in my son's education, the school's activities, day to day classroom events. I supervised the homework and integrated his lessons into our daily life. I taught when he needed a different approach in order to comprehend a concept.

Recently, a young man who had been home schooled went on a murder spree and killed several people. He was angry at his mother and pastor who kept such tight control of him that he had no privacy. He couldn't read a book or magazine without their approval. he could not watch TV. His CD collection was confiscated and destroyed.

No one here is saying that this is the norm for home schooling. Your overly dramatic pictures of desperately unhappy children plodding to abusive public schools and home again to disinterested parents is also not the norm.

To get back to the original post - I don't and didn't home school. I know many parents who do and to a man (woman) it is a difficult task which they take very seriously. Some have strong religious convictions and simply do not want their children exposed to contrary teachings. Some have leanring disabled children who were getting lost in the system. All the children are well educated and normal in every sense. Those who also had interaction with other children in a school setting seemed (Iam not an expert) better adjusted and more social.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:18 PM

Tickytackyboxland.

What's that junior? Pete Seeger wrote a song about that?

errr no - not exactly
Little Boxes

any more 'facts'?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

Say what you want, the class (forgive the pun)system is alive and well in schools

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:59 PM

Hey, have some of you forgotten???????

Your children are YOURS, albeit for a short time!

YOU are the ones who taught them everything they knew, before they went to school! YOU taught them to talk, to walk, to eat, to laugh, to smile....

Why the hell have you all given up, because 'someone' decided that only an 'official' teacher can teach!

We are ALL teachers! And THAT is what has been so desperately overlooked for so very long.

ALL you have to do is teach your child a LOVE of reading and the rest...is history!

From books they will find the world, from walks they will find the world, from talks they will find the world, from the internet they will find the world....from LOVE they will FIND the world....

And it will NOT be a world filled with alcohol, and yet more photos of in yer face drunken nights at yet another partyparty...but something that we used to have, so long ago, something that we have lost.....

Wonder, Time, Amazement.



Yes, for some, school is absolutely right, because they need competition, facts, figures, tests, absolutely thrive on it....but for the rest of us, it's shite, and most of us can recall only one or two brilliant teachers that we not only liked, but loved. Why? Because they treated us like people, made us feel wanted, made us feel intelligent, made us feel we could reach for the stars...and touch them...


Here, a Myspace page that's a little different to the 'many'...one that belongs to a Home Educated child, who nearly gave up on life after 10 years in The System.

Nonny Isabella


So, please, don't give me this shite about Home Ed parents all being nutters, abusers, thickos, who can't add 2 and 2 together. We simply choose to never live within the parellel lines of life that have been laid down for so many.

Yes, there are a few Home Ed parents who are a little odd, but then there are also many In The System Ed parents who are also odd. It's life. But most of us are doing this out of love, and desperation too, because without doing it, some of us would have lost our children to suicide and depression...and NO-ONE, NO 'INSTITUTION' has the right to cause that, just because so many of us have become so indoctrinated into never being able to see 'another way'.

Education Otherwise

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:54 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

errrr....................................

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM

And by the way, not everyone has the option of putting their kids in a better school.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: ButterandCheese
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:36 PM

The Villan, some children do go to school armed, for protection AND to use to intimidate other children. Maybe the schools you've had experience with don't, but there are many out there that do. Not all schools are the same

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:35 PM

But the school environment is not real life. It's a very artificial envronment, and one that, once out of school, people will never encounter again. Schools do not prepare people for the real world. That's why so many people who are deemed "most likely to succeed" while in school, so often fall flat on their faces once they get out into the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:32 PM

Hmmmm...that's strange, no-one seems to be signing up to the job...

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM

Here is a link to the laws of each state regarding home schooling. Fascinating. Some require nothing but the parent's decision to home school - no testing, no reporting.




http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:30 PM

Education is not simply about learning. I could have taught my kids Maths and English, probably to a better level than they received. I could teach them the sciences, in the main and have a good go at the arts. What I could not teach them is how to interact with people other than the family. The thing sadly lacking in home tuition is real life. Nasty as it can be at times life is best experienced, not taught.

And yes, I do have mixed experiences. 5 kids - 3 went through the state system with no more problems than most but the youngest, twins, were subject to a unacceptable amount of bullying. Just because they were different. The last straw was a teacher telling us that it may be better if they were in different classes, to stop them being a target! Huh? The way we handled it was to find a better school. Not remove them altogether.

Regards

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:28 PM

Oh heavens!

Come ON, people, lighten UP!

Look, home education is really simple! It's so simple that you'd not believe it.

My daughter spent 10 years, (got that?) TEN YEARS in this wonderful system that so many of you idolise. During that time, I watched a gifted and beautiful child literally switch off. She was terrified of getting on the wrong side of teachers, not doing her homework, being late etc. She sat in hot classrooms where windows weren't allowed to be open fully, in case little junior threw himself out...and where the kids had to ask *permission* from the teachers to remove their blazers before they expired over their desks!

Sod that for a game of control! Yeesh!

WHY do people seem to think that school should, for the most part, so often be shitty? Why do people think that their children should have to endure what they did, because it's 'normal'?

It's anything BUT normal!

NEVER, EVER EVER for the rest of your lives will you spend you entire working day in the company of other people who are ALL exactly the same age! Never.

We take our kids OUT of society, where they've been quite happy since birth (or once were, before the Conveyor Belt of Life shoved them into 'Pre School Learning Alliances')....In that society they saw people of all ages, smooth, wrinkled, tall, short...grannys, grandpa's, aunts, uncles, children of friends, older friends, older/younger cousins....and what do we do?

We shove them into a place where everyone's the same age. We make them wear ridiculous uniforms, of ties and hot shirts, despite global warming..and..just to show them how REALLY intelligent the teachers are, we make them wear...BLAZERS too! So much for the science there, then.....

But, we make them do this because...WE had to do this...and because WE had to do this, and our parents before us, it must be RIGHT!

It ain't.

It's crap.

But, people are only now starting to wake up to it.

Fast forward....

You're at a job interview..and on that table is this:

"OK, Butternose, we'll employ you, but these are our conditions, our 'charter' if you like, and without you adhering to these, you won't get the job, got it? Good. Here they are.

You will be polite to your boss at all times, even when he humiliates you in front of your colleagues.

You will never answer back, not even if he is a nasty little bully whom Hitler would have had as his second in command.

You must wear our uniform at ALL times, and if you want to remove any part of it, no matter if it's 170 in the shade, you must ask OUR permission, and...we have the right to decline your request, whereas you have no rights at all.

You must work hard all day long, apart from short breaks during morning and afternoon and a lunch hour. During this time, should your colleagues beat the shit out of you, threaten you or sexually abuse you, we will not be interested, or....we will show the minimum amount of interest, just what we have to do 'legally' because, hey, ALL jobs are like this and you have to learn to deal with that one!

You can only have your holiday at certain times of the year. You will be taken to court if you try to take it at other times of the year. We are not interested if you cannot afford to take it during the weeks we designate, nor if you cannot move on the beach, once you get there, because all the other workplaces are also on holiday. Tough shit, baby.

You must attend work early to have your breakfast here, your tea here and do you afterwork work here, so that we KNOW you are doing it. The afterwork work will be given every single night, and we expect it to be returned at the correct time. If you do not do this, you will be punished, either by having no breakk time at all (hey, that's a good deal, because at least you won't get the arse kicked out of you) or..you can stay behind after work in detention, writing out "I must finish my Afterwork Work on time, at ALL times!"

If you are caught talking to your colleagues when you are supposed to be working, you will be punished.

If you wriggle on your chair, you will be punished.

If you laugh during work time, you will be punished.

If you dare to take your jacket off, without our *permission* you will be punished.

You will be tested on a VERY regular basis. In fact, we may test you so much that you may think you've gone mad, but...we accept no excuses. Tests are tests and humans are designed to have them. We know this because we've paid a very expensive Think Tank to tell us.

At the end of each working year, you will be not only tested, but....examined! If you do not pass the correct amount of exams, with the correct grades, you will be......punished.

We do all of these things to ensure that our workforce turns out well-adjusted spirits, who love coming to their workplace and we hope you appreciate that fact.

Oh...and just one last thing, we will not be paying you for any of this at all.

If you try to work from home, we will stop you. This is because we know that anyone who works from home is abused or...an abuser. Also, they think 'outside the box' which is extremely dangerous when we want you to live in Tickytackyboxland.

What's that junior? Pete Seeger wrote a song about that? This is what we mean! We don't want anyone knowing facts like THAT!

We want our workforce to not question, just DO. That's what builds a country. Never forget that you are Human Resources. If anyone tells you that you are a free person, you must ignore them, because you are no longer free, other than at work, of course, so long as you stick to The Rules.

Punishment is incredibly easy to avoid. You simply have to learn to do as we tell you and your lives will chug along easily, until you die.

Now, be a good prole...and sign The Contract just here:

..............................

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:25 PM

By the way, my son is doing great now. He has an undergraduate university degree (bachelor degree) and a very good job. He wants to go back to school at some point and get his masters degree. He as tons of friends and no problems with his social skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 01:21 PM

I can't speak to home education in the UK (although I would imagine things aren't terribly different between the two countries in that regard), but I do have some experience with it here in the US.

I home schooled my son for a year when he was about ten years old. He was gifted/learning disabled, and the school system in the area where we lived did not have the resources to be able to serve him adequately, and they were really messing him up. I am grateful that it was possible for me to do that, because the alternative would have been very bad for my son.

I agree that there are a lot of parents who home school who are fairly extreme in their religious views, but there are also a lot of people who home school because they see the schools as not being the best learning environments for their kids. The statistics show that people who are home schooled tend to be far ahead of their peers, academically, so maybe the parents who home school for this reason are on to something.

Obviously, not all parents can home school, but the option should be available for those who want to make the commitment of time energy that is required for the benefit of their children.

On the subject of home schooled children not having the opportunity to develop social skills, there may be some for whom this is a problem, but most home schooling parents make a huge effort to provide opportunities for social development for their kids. In my case, my son and I belonged to a group of home schooling families who would get together regularly so that our kids could do things in a group setting. Some of them were purely social or recreational in nature, and some of them were educational and/or sports related.

And all of these kids have other opportunities for socializing. My son had friends outside of the academic setting, for instance, the kids of my friends, and also through Boy Scouts. Some home schooled kids have social contacts at their churches or little league, or swim clubs, or other organizations they belong to.

My son had poor social skills as a child, but that was because of his learning disabilities, and those problems were made much, much worse by his experiences in the public schools prior to my home schooling him, because there is a culture in many public schools of students ridiculing and bullying children who are different for one reason or another, and many teachers feed into that culture themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:58 PM

The thing that worries me most about home schooling is the need for science education, which involves expensive equipment and has safety implications which could not be met at home. And it is a subject which is needed in the modern world. I suppose the same problems would arise with other practical subjects such as metalwork.

There is also the suspicion that a deliberate avoidance of science may be one of the causes of home schooling where religion lies behind it. That worries me.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:34 PM

Sinsull referred to home schooling in Alaska which, in terms of its (lack of) registration and momitoring requirements, is probably more akin to the current situation in the UK that the Badman report has reviewed than our European neighbours or American 'cousins' in other States

Coincidentally, some of the issues discussed here about the UK were also the subject of a recent article in The Anchorage Daily News

Home school: Making the grade?

"Home-schooling has a long history in Alaska. In 1939, the territory started a correspondence program for rural residents who lived where there were no schools.

Correspondence programs were a hybrid -- home schooling, but with some state oversight.

In 1997, then-Sen. Loren Leman cleared any ambiguity about state oversight by sponsoring a law that gave complete freedom to parents. He and other legislators also did away with regulations that said certain subjects needed to be studied.

Some parents home-school for religious reasons. Some because their child has learning disabilities and needs special one-on-one attention that schools don't offer. Some because they don't like the public school social environments where their kids are bullied. And others because they think their kid will get more out of individualized instruction.

So, what's the actual issue here? What's the harm in at least requiring parents to register that they are home schooling their kids?

Narda Butler, a home-school mother and board member of the Anchorage Frontier Charter School who has worked with home-schooling kids for years, is a home-school advocate who wants accountability.

"I come from a background where I really enjoy having the freedom to make curriculum choices... but I also want kids to be adequately prepared."

"I find it very, very scary that you can home-school under Alaska law in a way that has very, very limited accountability." "

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 12:12 PM

I have met a number of children who have been home-schooled all across the country including Alaska. Some were failing in the "system" and parents pulled them out; some had disabilities that simply were not being addressed in the classroom (a whole other discussion); some parents had chosen home schooling for religious reasons.
The one (and only) drawback I saw in almost every situation was a lack of social skills. Some acted like perfect little adults; all had difficulty interacting with other children. This was especially true of the children home schooled for religious reasons. They literally never interacted with anyone outside their parent's chosen world.
I am not sure how that plays out in their adult lives. But if education is the only issue, I suspect they are well educated.



Not sure what this is all about:
"NEVER before have our children NOT wanted to learn as they do not want to learn at present. NEVER before has our young population been so dumbed down, so controlled, so apathetic.....and it's happening because, from the moment of their birth, they are put on that Conveyer Belt of Life, *by their parents*...

We have abused Motherhood. We have removed Femininity. We have stolen the parents from the children and stuck them inside Factory Farms of Edukashon, some so big that the teachers don't even know the names of the children.

Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves! They live their lives in hostile situations, 5 days a week, whilst having to learn things they hate! They get detention, ridicule, told off, humiliated, verbally abused, bullied, kicked....on and on .....and what do 'the parents' say?

"Oh, school has always been like that. That's life, that's the way it is and you have to toughen up, kid!"

So the kids toughened up, and they toughened out. They've lost compassion, kindness, sweetness....They buy books of the best 'put downs' to humiliate each other, they are cruel and rude and cranky...

But most of all, MOST of all, they are deeply, DEEPLY unhappy!"

At least in Maine and Jackson Heights, NY the above is not the norm. There are and always will be some kids who do not fit in . That is for a variety of reasons - some are too bright and get bored; some are not bright enough and get lost; some have parents who are simply not involved. But DEEPLY unhappy?

Not wanting to learn??? Really? Colleges here have to turn away students. Even community colleges are busting at the seams. Trade schools are packed.

I know a lot of kids who have no direction. I know many who have quit school or graduated and do nothing. None of them are dumb. I know none who have been dumbed down. The math I took in high school, they get in grammar school. Sciences are taught in the 6th and 7th grade that I took in college. Every kid I know can out perform me on a computer and can fill you in on every new electronic gizmo out there. That includes the ones who have dropped out of high school.

I suspect the problem described is money rather than education. But that too is another discussion. But the claim that children today are all unhappy? That's simply nonsense. Apathetic? Did you not see how involved young people were in tha last US election? Not the usual Young Republicans Club but kids across every racial, cultural and economic spectrum.Motherhood abused? Check the laws protecting both mother and father in the workplace during and after pregnancy. Removed Femininity? Huh? By encouraging young women to use their minds?

I suspect that some here have had a verybad experience in school. I went to Catholic schools for 12 years and endured physical punishment but oddly enough was always encouraged to think outside the box. Indoctrinated?

It is a role of society to get people to conform to certain norms in order for the society to function for the benefit of most. School works towards that goal. Students learn to read and write; they also learn to be clean, balance a check book, drive a car, that work is a good thing if you plan on supporting yourself and welfare is an option if you don't (but not the best option), that our country is good (Be it the US, China, Japan, whatever).

I wonder if these unhappy children are genuinely unhappy or simply frustrated by the current economy. Or are they enduring the normal problems of adolescence? Are the knife bearers the exception or the rule? Is your glass always half empty?

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:46 AM

A quote from Lizzie "Children go to school with knives, to protect themselves!"

Both of my daughters have never taken or used knives to school. There are 1200 in the school, so I guess from your comment Lizzie, 1198 must have knives. Well that is just amazing and mind boggling.

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Chris Green
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

I'm with theleveller. I work in education myself and so did both of my parents. Education works best when it's a genuine partnership between kids, parents and teachers.

The only direct case of home-schooling I have personal experience of is a friend of mine whose wife insisted that their kids be taken out of school at the age of 7 and 5 respectively so that she could educate them herself (my friend had a pretty full-on job and she was a housewife). The fact that she'd left school without taking any GCSEs, had never a job and was without a doubt one of the most moronic people I've ever encountered didn't seem to deter her. Sadly it also didn't seem to deter the local LEA from letting her give it a go!

A couple of years later she found herself a new bloke and ditched my friend. And guess what? Suddenly she decided it was time for the kids to go back into full-time education at school! Given that they'd learned nothing at all during their period of home education except some rather choice language, they're now finding it very hard to readjust to mainstream education, not least because of their complete lack of social skills (as they've spent no time with other kids for two years.)

Grrrr.....

Subject: RE: BS: Home Education UK
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Sep 09 - 11:40 AM

I'd also like to pose some questions

"To home-educate children in the UK, one does not need a teaching qualification nor any specialist equipment"

What is considered the acceptable 'standard' for any individual to educate a child/young person up to the age of 16 in a range of subjects ?
Is this a task instinctive 'motherhood' and 'love' equips everyone for?
How are such 'qualifications' to be measured?

Does home schooling allow a 'monitor' system where older children are teaching their younger siblings?

In state schools corporal punishment was outlawed in 1986 and 1998 for the few remaining independent schools that retained the practice.
In England and Wales legislation prohibiting corporal punishment does not apply to the home - and logically therefore home educators are still free to exercise this form of discipline with no monitoring?

Any answers?