Lyr Add: England My England

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:08 AM

But, Matt, I bet you they were PROUD of their grandparents as well. Why do you regard the two things [pride & getting·on·with·it] as incompatible?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: matt milton
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:04 AM

I guess I'm only fixating on that word because it seems to be quite an unhealthy fixation for some other people. And I think it's frequently used utterly unquestionably by perfectly well-meaning people in a particularly fatuous way.

You can bet that all the courageous people who made the good things about the UK good did not achieve what they achieved because they were sitting around feeling proud about their great-grandparents.

They were too busy getting on with stuff - seeing what was wrong and making it right.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:02 AM

Good one Matt. Leave now before tha mad ones return

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM

I take the point of Matt and others who have expressed similar opinions on this thread; but can't help feeling there comes a sort of Hegelian tipping-point where such extreme rationality and denial of what is generally regarded as an instinctual and natural emotion can tip over into a sort of anti-humanistic negativity. Did you not feel pleased in your schooldays if the school 1st XI won a match against a rival team, for instance, even if you weren't playing yourself? Do you not identify with any outside entity [football team, say; or your old school or college] and wish them well? If your old college/university is on University Challenge, don't you hope they will win, even tho all those young people are all so much after your time?

Really not? Goodness, how sad!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM

so many of you,with one or two notable exceptions, appear to be so uneasy,if not actually desperately ashamed,about the idea of "pride" in your English national identity

Where is that Mr Rat? Who has said they are ashamed by the idea of pride? The impression I get is that everyone, with one or two notable exceptions, are proud of England for reasons other than it's 'glorious' past.

I have stated over and over again I am proud of Englands record on accepting other cultures and the tolerance that is shown for other peoples and ideas. I am neither proud or ashamed of 'England' because it is a lump of rock and mud that has no choice and I am not particularly proud or ashamed to be born in England because I had no say over that. There is nothing to proud of the bigots and narrow minded people who promote the facile nonsense in the song but as I have no control over them and they do not represent my England I cannot say I am ashamed of them either.

As to your 'if you don't like it leave the country' attitude. Well, I think it says far more about your leanings than I could but I shall let other people make up their own minds.

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM

Yes, I'm certainly against the blind and destructive jingoism that 'pride' can imply and, indeed, generate. This doesn't, however, mean that there can't be an affection for and an attachment and affinity to Britain (I don't think of England, or any of the other parts of the British Isles, in isolation) – and to a particular area that, for whatever reason, has special associations. I think it's important to have a 'sense of place'. For me that place happens to be East Yorkshire, where I was born and where my family has lived for several generations, but I've also felt at home in other parts of the country where I've lived and there are other areas that I feel particularly drawn to. My England (Britain) is a personal thing, not a nationalistic sentiment.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: matt milton
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:51 AM

Well I am very pleased that I happen to have been born in the UK at the time I was, rather than, say, Rwanda.

There are plenty of activists, politicians, freethinkers who have fought for benefits that make my life as a UK resident a hell of a lot easier than for a citizen of North Korea.

But I can't say "pride" is what I feel. There's just something a bit pompous and weird in that.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:37 AM

Matt, suppose you were born into a hypothetical land whose history was all noble and which had been a great force for good in the world.
Would it not be natural to feel grateful to have been born into such a country.
And would you not feel a little inherited pride that your parents, grandparents, and all your forbears had contributed to making your country such a good place?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: matt milton
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:16 AM

Taking pride in the arbitrary rock that your parents chromosomes happened to be located on is nonsensical - it's a bizarre contortion of common use of the noun 'pride'.

To feel pride in one's heritage is frankly weird: when you think about it, it's feeling good about yourself because of things that other people have done. Other people. Not you. It's like a sketch that Mitchell & Webb did, which took the piss out of the insistence of couch-potato football fans that "We" won the match 4-nil, that "We" scored a blinder of a goal...

Generally speaking one takes pride in something that one has actually done. I can neither be proud nor ashamed to happen to have been born in England.

The only example I can think of, when this kind of pride-in-the-collective would have any kind of sense would be if, say, you felt proud of some courageous foreign policy decision taken by a government you had voted for. (Or, probably more likely, felt shame at some bloody awful foreign policy taken by a government you had voted for.)

Subject: RE: England My England
From: GUEST,Mike
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 08:03 AM

There is great deal to be proud of in England - at least North of the Watford Gap.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:54 AM

"Thanks for that, CS - I've just been there and joined"

Good man Leveller - Lizzie may have missed it, but at least someone noticed.. ;-)

And in particular for any interested lawyers here at Mudcat, who might not know:
Lawyers for Liberty

Subject: RE: England My England
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:36 AM

Thankyou, ALLANC , for a most illuminating posting,which I have read with great interest. I had always believed that there was, in fact,a finite limit on the actual numbers of Scottish MPs allowed to have a seat at Westminster,which was being blatantly and illegally exceeded by would-be Dictator Brown,but your revelations suggest not.
             Sadly, I cannot at present decide as to whether I should be pleased, or disappointed !!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

"PS Lizzie, this one is especially for you, it's an excellent organisation and I'd strongly suggest you sign-up and make a difference to something that seems to matter strongly to you:
Liberty - Take Action!"

Thanks for that, CS - I've just been there and joined.

Bring on the Republic!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:25 AM

Having read every single one of the above responses,I can only say how very sorry I am that so many of you,with one or two notable exceptions, appear to be so uneasy,if not actually desperately ashamed,about the idea of "pride" in your English national identity,with or without all its faults and mistakes.
   My own personal view is that most of you should,in all honesty,seriously consider the idea of re-locating to perhaps Canada or Australia or,better still, Afghanistan,where your distinctly unpatriotic,history-bunking,tradition-hating,hand-wringing apologist views would ,one hopes,probably occasion some discomfiture.
         God Save The Queen.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: allanc
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 07:25 AM

"make up of House of Commons"

There have been several posts in this thread suggesting that Scots are controlling the voting in the House of Commons. Of course it is for the most part complete nonsense. At the last election Labour came out with an overall majority of 66 seats in the UK as a whole. The total number of Scottish MPs was 59 and because of the skewed system Scotland did send a Labour majority of 23 to Westminster. In fact by number of seats Labour had a bigger majority in seats from England (ie 43) than it had in its 23 majority within Scotland. The idea that 23 Scottish MPs can control the voting is silly.

The problem is not Scotland v England. Rather it is Labour's half finished constitutional changes and their willingness to abuse the democratic process and of course probably the Tories would have acted no differently. The myth is that Scottish MPs can vote on English only matters and not the other way round. Actually it is false. Scottish MPs can vote on English only matters it is true. It is unfair but at least for the most part it is only a theoretical democratic deficit. I think there have only been a couple of cases where it actually made any difference and it probably only made the difference because Scottish opposition MPS like the SNP members refused to vote on matters that didn't concern them. At the same time the Labour administration in Edinburgh (supported by the Lib Dems) used the Sewell Motion over 60 times. This meant they bypassed the Holyrood parliament by passing on what should have been devolved legislation back to Westmisnter. Hence all Westminster MPs got a vote on these measures when none of them (whether they be English or Scots) had any democratic mandate to do so.

It is wrong that Scots MPs should vote, and of course may be forced to vote by the party whips, on measures that don't concern them. Even though sometimes it is quite difficult to say what does and what doesn't concern them as any matter concerning overall government funding directly affects overall funding in Scotland. Scotland suffered a massive democratic deficit and it took a massive campaign to eventually sort it out. No doubt if there was a tiny majority and because of Scottish votes the English suffered a real democratic deficit rather than a theoretical one then the problem would be sorted pretty quickly as the vast bulk of MPs are English. There are various solutions with the UK structure. A full federal UK; an English Parliament; or when concerning English only matters an English Grand Commitee made up of only English based Westminster MPS. The last solution appears the easiest but it could theoretically make for static government in England. For instance of the govt didn't have a majority in England and couldn't get other party support to carry out legislation on English only matters - whilst having enough UK members to survive and vote of confidence at full UK level.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:14 AM

glad to hear it, Ruth.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:39 AM

........and cue song!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1sXEI91QVY

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:16 AM

The EFDSS has just become an Arts Council England Regularly Funded Organisation. There will be £200k a year spent on all sorts of strategic projects both in London and around the country. This would never have happened 10 years ago, when the EFDSS was seen by the folk world itself as a backward and inward-looking organisation, and it barely registered on the Arts Council's radar. The process of modernisation and development has been going on for several years now, and long may it continue. A good example of the type of work we are talking about is the Take 6 project, which digitised 6 of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library's major collections and put them on-line, as well as taking several of those collections back into the communities from which they were first collected through projects in schools. Next, I believe that they are working in partnership with the Wren Trust on digitising the Baring-Gould collection, and that it will be housed on the EFDSS site.

EFDSS is currently recruiting several new members of staff to help make their new goals achievable. It is a robust, thriving organisation, and the the magazine has, under its current editorship, taken massive steps forward as well.

There is a lot to be proud of.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 12:49 AM

Thanks, Dave, Diane et al. I shall have a look next time I'm round those parts and hope for a pleasant surprise at the new all-singing all-dancing all=buzzing C#H...

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:24 PM

I was at C#House recently and it seemed to be buzzing.

A huge change from hte 60's. Mike, get involved!!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:54 PM

I have seen a Tuvian throat singer doing Joy Division songs (NOT at "The London Folk Centre" (good grief) but the South Bank.

No, I'm not very happy with C# House being named that. There are "Irish Centres" in most conurbations throughout the land. No-one calls them Irish "F*lk" Centres. A similar chain of "English Centres" would be rather good.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM

"The chocolate boxes are manufactured in crumbling pre-fab units on industrial estates of Middlesbrough by a callow proletarian youths grateful of a minimum wage."

More like China, these days... ;0) Gawd, even the National Trust's bits and bobs come from China, more often than not..Yikes!


"Te pictures on the boxes have no meaning for them,..."

Yeah, but er..that's because they've turned off from their history BIGTIME, because they've been told they're nothing but a bunch of Slave Trade Oppressors, so they've never seen carts horses, or thatched cottage lit by candlelight, or merry peasants dancing their hearts out when the fiddler fiddled..


"but the bucolic idyll persists even in the riot-torn housing estates where they dwell in shadows. In one such chocolate box a junkie keeps her syringes and stash; in another a gangster keeps his knife and gun; in yet another a paedophile keeps his cherished computer disks and faded polaroids. "

Damned handy things those Chinese Chocolate Boxes...but there's also the chocolate box that is filled with photos of English cricket, being played upon the Village Greens, and Spitfires flying overhead...pictures of a country brought together by a war, a war that they went to fight willingly, for the good of the whole world..and in the corner of that chocolate box lies a half smoked cigar, and a few frayed remains of a black hat, together with the words of a great Englishman, called William..."So enormous, so dreadful, so irremediable did the Trade's wickedness appear that my own mind was completely made up for Abolition. Let the consequences be what they would, I from this time determined that I would never rest until I had effected its abolition."

All of these items sit upon a CD by The Imagined Village...



"Those same thatched cottages are now owned by wealthy commuters and second-homers whose wealth has pushed up the house prices so the locals can no longer afford to live there; worse still, the ancient interiors have been torn out and replaced by neo-rural DIY blandness."

Double yeah, but......the villagers themselves sold their cottages to they grockles and they emmits (as we call them down here), then they b*ggered off to Spain to live in Eldorado, whilst moaning that they can no longer afford their own homes in their own villages. ????

And of course, why would the Proles want to live in ancient cottages which speak of England's history, because they know that her history is Big Brother and The X Factor, and the way forward is Posh and Becks....innit?

Oh...and they've no time to use the village shop or post office, 'cos they've all got 4X4's which speed through the lanes to Sainsbury's and Tesco's so they can all have 24/7 food throughout 24/7 seasons..and most of 'em couldn't even tell you what fruit and vegetables grow in which season, in an English Country Garden...


........and cue song!



Very emotive piece of writing though, SOP.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:42 PM

I never mentioned the deafass,I mentioned the EFDSS.
Londons Folk Centre, hurrah, well done whoever,the truth is out.
however The EFDSS may be Londons folk centre,But I still think of them when I think of England,they remind me of Dr Beeching too,disbanding most of their branches, hopefully they will reverse that foolish move.
I am glad to hear they are starting to do lots of positive things.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 03:04 PM

We bought the Joy Division Heart & Soul box set today. Does it get any more English?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:37 PM

Wasn't me who brought the DEAFASS in . . .
I merely commented on what Dick & Mike said.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:32 PM

Hmm…'revamp of English Dance & Song' First time I've heard a really positive, unsolicited comment on that. Thanks.
I just wish you hadn't brought C# House into this thread. Although everything said about it is true there is one thing that you might not know. The sign outside indicates that it is now, 'London's Folk Centre'. (You might intimate that there was some disquiet about this from outside London) :-)

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 02:08 PM

Apple Day was on 17 October.

I too was at the Bob Copper commemoration which was also brilliant musically though the surroundings were as dreary as ever before. This took place well before the appointment of Katy Spicer who has achieved much in a short time. Additionally, the accession of Ms Carthy to the post of Vice President as well as the revamp of English Dance & Song and the arrival of some "progressives" on the EC have resulted in (comparatively) massive shake-ups.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:56 PM

Last time I was there, Diane, was for the Bob Copper Memorial Concert, about 3 or 4 years ago. Can't say I found it very much more cheerful than than I used to 30 years ago. How recent was this event you describe?

Michael

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:50 PM

I think you mean "wasn't it?" when you describe C# in such terms.

As a former worker from 1969 to 1971, I was alternately terrorised and deeply disheartened by the rod-of-iron rule by an accountant and the disapproval of the "dauncers" and for two decades after leaving could scacely bear to enter its dreary portals. However, since the arrival of Katy Spicer, the new chief executive, things have looked up considerably and amazingly.

For Verity Sharp's Apple Day recently, the walls were draped - somewhat bizarrely - with farming implements, shepherds' clothing and big red apples. The music was brilliant, joyous and unrestrained. It might even become MY EFDSS once more as it transforms itself into where to look for a New England.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:36 PM

Yes — pity C#House is such an institutional, joyless, 1930s do-gooder kind of place, isn't it! I remember reviewing a London Folk Festival there back in the 60s-70s, and saying they tried awful hard, but the place is so horribly unfestive...

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

OK that should bring in another collection of people with fascinating views of almost everything!

L in C

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 01:27 PM

do you mind if I bring in the EFDSS.
Tucked away at the top of Camden Town,The English Folk Dance and Song Society,Battles on in a way Reminiscent of Trevor Baileys batting,hanging in there,not exactly dashing or dashing away with the smoothing iron,refusing to let itself be bowled out,admirable in a terribly English way,stiff upper lip, backward defensive ,but still there.
It stands four square, rugged and defiant braving the cold north winds defying the elements,a jolly good show.
but typical of England my England,flourishing when it has its back to the wall,existing by the occasional handout,and in the past from deceased members generous wills.
England my England,the EFDSS and Cecil Sharp House holed up in Camden Town,defiant to the last,braving the elements,doggedly fighting on refusing to move.,like a bulldog guarding its master[the VWML].
the epitome of Englishness.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM

I think the Good Soldier has it about right..

England is whatever it is for whomever lives here, but for me it's essentially about being and *doing* - not about fantasies of 'blood' or faded historical characters, or even the bloody history of oppression from which it has been birthed.

It's the air I breathe which goes into my lungs and out again, the landscape around me that I see with my own eyes (be that council estate or village), the woodlands I go illegally trespassing through, the folk clubs I sing at, the Beebs essential Dickens production (which tells us it must be Christmas again) that I will inevitably watch like everyone else this winter, it's the Austen that will make me laugh again in Spring when I revise those old volumes, or the Mighty Boosh which does the same whenever I pull it up on YouTube, it'll be backpacking along the Suffolk coast this Winter Solstice, gathering Holly and Ivy on Xmas Eve, it's the Chinese takeaway we're having for Sunday lunch while watching an old film on telly, it's being an outsider in my own village as the elderly locals slowly die away to be replaced with estates of faux classical housing for commuters. That's England "My England" for good or ill, because it's the life I live, drawn from all that one may find that is readily available to both me and everyone else here. Elements I'm not so content with - hence me searching for a new part of the country in which to reside, but it's up to me at the end of the day to either like or lump, or better still take action. The closest thing to an 'inner-dreaming' of England I have is probably to be found on threads on Mudcat, filled with a bunch of quirky old beardy folkies - like The re-Imagined village. I do like it there I must say, and as I'm searching for a new place to reside, would quite happily re-locate to East Rivington if there were a means..

But if people like Lizzie, really don't like the England they're a part of, why not simply get out there and become an *activist* investing energy in those things that are worth creating, supporting and maintaining so everyone can continue to appreciate them, and err like 'make this England a better place?' or something.. ;-)

PS Lizzie, this one is especially for you, it's an excellent organisation and I'd strongly suggest you sign-up and make a difference to something that seems to matter strongly to you:
Liberty - Take Action!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:14 AM

Join me at the barbie, MtheGM?

:D

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:55 AM

Oh poo — isn't it a bummer when you cross·post & look silly. BUM!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:53 AM

D el G - I think you mean Job, not Jonah, don't you?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM

My apologies to all bible scholars - I had a mental abberration and got my J's mixed up. It was of course JOB who was tested - not Jonah.

I suppose I am on my way to the fiery pit now but, then again, I knew that anyway:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 09:34 AM

Get over it....

It doesn't make England a bad place...

No, England is not a bad place at all. Looking back through the thread plenty of people have said it was a bad place for some and still is for others. The only one implying that anyone thinks it is a bad place now is you, Lizzie. For one who 'has England running through their blood', or whatever it was, I find it remarkable that you cannot accept that there are things wrong. Surely it is those of us that can see the country, for all it's past crimes and current faults, and yet still find it the best place to live that realy love the old girl isn't it?

Remember the story of Jonah and the whale? Jonah kept his faith, but the devil argued with god that while life was good it was easy for Jonah to do so. So, they made life very difficult for the poor old sod (god can be a bastard sometimes can't he!)and yet Jonah still kept faith. He had a whinge and whine every now and again, like we all do, but he stuck with it and won through in the end. Anyone who has never had their faith in anything tested cannot realy know if the faith is strong enough. Anyone who can only see the good in something is in for a big disappointment when the shit hits the fan!

DeG

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:32 AM

So this is what our educated middle classes do when they aint deciding whats best for the rest of us...
Have a good weekend all.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:22 AM

Fascism derives from the repetition of the same old lies until they become true; you are only pro-WAV and have repeated these same old lies until most of here could recite them in our sleep. Your Life's Work is both racist and fascist by default; it is also 100% bullshit.

If you weren't a racist (or indeed a fascist) you would not think as you do and write what you have, much less persist in the promotion of this inane philosophy at every possible opportunity. As Stu says, what you contribute here is SPAM - it is not discussion.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:18 AM

What Sean said. All of it.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: s&r
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:06 AM

WAV there are 62 copy pastes of this drivel at various places on the web, including 2 on current threads.

Surely enough is enough. This repetitive posting is SPAM not contributions to a thread, or free speech.

Stu

Subject: RE: England My England
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 06:06 AM

"Fascist" (S.) derives from a dictatorial Italian party opposed to communism; I am pro-democracy and have repeatedly criticised capitalism; there is no racism or fascism in my above poem, nor the rest of my life's work.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:51 AM

WAV - fuck off with your racist / fascist bullshit already.

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:50 AM

You mean that even our chocolate boxes are Evil????? Oh come ON! Whether you like it or not, not every thatched cottage carried inside it members from Oppressors R Us!

The chocolate boxes are manufactured in crumbling pre-fab units on industrial estates of Middlesbrough by a callow proletarian youths grateful of a minimum wage. The pictures on the boxes have no meaning for them, but the bucolic idyll persists even in the riot-torn housing estates where they dwell in shadows. In one such chocolate box a junkie keeps her syringes and stash; in another a gangster keeps his knife and gun; in yet another a paedophile keeps his cherished computer disks and faded polaroids. Those same thatched cottages are now owned by wealthy commuters and second-homers whose wealth has pushed up the house prices so the locals can no longer afford to live there; worse still, the ancient interiors have been torn out and replaced by neo-rural DIY blandness.

Show me a country where the strong don't 'rule' the weak!

The strong have dispossed the weak; the cocolate box idyll is a cipher of inhumanity and Darwinian social cruelty which accepts aforementioned junkie, ganster and paedophile as prerequisites of an ongoing priviledge which is, as you say, Ye Good Olde English way. Their suffering is thus justified; they are the deserving victims of the Cocolate Box England of which you are so proud. Meanwhile, we pay good money to go into castles which were built to oppress, brutilise, enslave, rape and burn the people of our country into the numb pacifity which is yet our English Heritage. Meabwhile - we pay good money to go into the Country Houses which were built on the aforemention back-breaking labours, squallor and poverty of the urban and rural working classes; we marvel at Cathedrals raised to the glory of a God who ordered the estates of both the strong and the weak.   

Tell you what, if you don't like this country, then b*gger off somewhere else.

To repeat my post of 06 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqoTNVwhrAg

O'er grassy dale, and lowland scene
Come see, come hear, the English Scheme.
The lower-class, want brass, bad chests, scrounge fags.
The clever ones tend to emigrate
Like your psychotic big brother, who left home
For jobs in Holland, Munich, Rome
He's thick but he struck it rich, switch
The commune crap, camp bop, middle-class, flip-flop
Guess that's why they end up in bands
He's the green piece in us all
He's the creep-creep in us all
Condescends to black men
Very nice to them
They talk of Chile while driving through Haslingden
You got sixty hour weeks, and stone stone toilet back-gardens
Peter Cook's jokes, bad dope, check shirts, lousy groups
Point their fingers at America
Down pokey quaint streets in Cambridge
Cycles our distant spastic heritage
Its a gay red, roundhead, army career, grim head
If we was smart we'd emigrate

Distant spastic heritage indeed!

Subject: RE: England My England
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:31 AM

Poem 212 of 230: REMEMBER THEM?

Back when we became defenders
    (We have plainly been attackers),
Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -
A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway
And as we slipped as maintainers.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 05:11 AM

You really don't like Northerners do you? Tell you what, we'll apply to move the Scottish border down to the southern side of Brum...

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 04:48 AM

"England is founded on class-division, oppression, subjugation and exploitation; our culture is built on the tortured backs of the rural & urban working-class and this continues to be the case today. The other day in Liverpool we took shelter from the downpour in St Georges Hall, this noble edifice of a particularly English take on Classicism wherein the sumptuous banqueting hall is built over the prison cells below; a testimony to the pre-requisites of mass squalor, poverty, crime and human depravity which is truly England's Glory."


Absolute poppycock!

Show me a country where the strong don't 'rule' the weak! Geez! It is that attitude that has caused so much damage to this country, and to our young people!

"This is the country I was born into and I am under no illusions about our Heritage, nor of the evil represented by the pictures on The Chocolate Box, much less the tooth-rotting folksie twee faux-pourri Country House / Cathedral horrors it contains by way of marketing a myth however so comforting that myth might be. "

You mean that even our chocolate boxes are Evil????? Oh come ON! Whether you like it or not, not every thatched cottage carried inside it members from Oppressors R Us! Some people were just very happy living their lives, hard though they may have been....but were they harder than ours? Physically yes, of course....but they had a simplicity that brought something special, which we have oh so lost these days...

"Personally, I've always preferred Jonathan Meades to Alan Titchmarch anyway."

Personally, I've always thought that Jonathan Meades is an up his own building, sneery type of architect, whereas Alan is a down to muddyearth Yorkshireman with a whacking good sense of humour, a deep love of the land, and of his grandfather who taught him about the land..

The Miners Strike caused much bitterness and hatred....understandably, but that hatred has been kept alive for decades, and it has scarred not only this land, but all those who still have hate in their hearts. The miners lives were changed for ever...Mine was changed by The Royal Mail....

Get over it....

It doesn't make England a bad place...

Subject: RE: England My England
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM

Michaelr - you're forgiven. If we can't talk about Krautrock in a thread about England, we can't live. Now, anyone like Ash Ra temple?

Subject: RE: England My England
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM

You have the NEU album? Electro-Kraut rock at its best! I grew up in Germany, and I miss that stuff. Just recently managed to find the first Faust album (on clear vinyl) reissued.

Thread creep away from England, sorry.