BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?

Subject: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:48 AM

YES!

In fact, womenn are almost embarrassed to stand up and say "I'm a Mother, first and foremost...and I am bloody proud to be exactly that!"

Motherhood counts above Careerhood any day.

And sorry...but I don't believe that a woman can be a mother and a full time career woman at the same time. Why? Because Motherhood itself is a full-time career and bringing up the next generation is one of the most important jobs in the world.

For way too long the feminists have been selling the wrong story...and now they stand and bleat..."It wasn't supposed to be like this!"

Too darn right it wasn't!

So what did they think would happen when they took the mothers away from their children? Did they think that they'd end up with happy children, happy mothers, happy marriages?????

Yeesh, the short-sightedness of some Intellectual Types beggars belief at times....

And now we have a generation of people who don't even seem to love their kids very much, because the State has now interfered so much that they feel frightened to bring them up the natural way, and most Mums are too darn worn out at the end of their working day to have much time to spend with their children..

And what about Fathers?

Did Feminism make them redundant too?


In all of this, the very people who were er....just slightly overlooked were The Children.

And look what has happened..................

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 04:53 AM

Knew it had to be you Lizzie

Are you having a bad day? Maybe feeling a bit neglected and the whole world is against you?

>>Mums are too darn worn out at the end of their working day to have much time to spend with their children..<<

Maybe you should spend less time on Mudcat :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 05:10 AM

Like my Mum used to say: "Mother and Father are doing words", they are not merely nouns. It's simple to become a Mother and there's nothing magical or holy about it. It's a biological given - one just has to fail to bother with contraception. And that's just about as much 'Mothering' as a whole segment of society seems to achieve now.

Please don't preach at me either, I grew up in a single parent family with my Mum in areas where this style of 'Mothering' was the norm. And I still have family who live around the results of it every day. The kids are dumped outside and crave love and affection, but their *stay at home* Mums are too busy gassing with their mates and smoking fags to give any kind of shit.

'Parenting' however is another matter (whatever the gender), and takes a much greater investment of energy. Whether the parent goes to work *or* stays at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:49 AM

Well, Guest, she (or at least mine) comes home to a semi-clean house and the laundry is all done.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:13 AM

And why shouldn't YOU do something when you come home? Cook a meal, paint a wall.... "Partner" means both work for the common good.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Arkie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:17 AM

The Hand that Rocks the Cradle

He got here red and wrinkled, scared and crying
and she took him up and held him to her breast
and he sure was glad to get what mama offered
and he went to sleep and put his fears to rest

There ought to be a hall of fame for mamas
Creation's most unique and precious pearl
And Heaven help us always to remember
That the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world


She taught him all the attributes of greatness
That she knew he couldn't learn away from home
And by the time she wore the cover off her bible
Her hair was gray and her little man was gone

There ought to be a hall of fame for mamas
Creation's most unique and precious pearl
And Heaven help us always to remember
That the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:51 AM

There is a story that goes something like...

This guy comes home from work and sees the bins overflowing, nappies all over the place, living room a mess, the beds not made, the dishes still in the sink, no dinner ready, the grass not cut, the hedges not trimmed, laundry not done, no pressed shirt for work, dog, cats and children not fed, TV blasting and music going off upstairs...

"What the heck has happened here", he cries out

"You know each day you come home from work and ask me what the I did all day except chat on the phone to my friends and pick up the kids from school?", she answers, "Well, today I did none of it at all"

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:11 AM

Husband, " shall we try a different position tonight darling ? "

wife, " yeah, I'll lay on the sofa drinking beer and farting, and you can stand at the ironing board all night. "

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:19 AM

All being said, and breaking some sterotypes, I also know there are some good househubbies out there too. We can generalise that, on average, women do more of the work at home and with the children, but not all men fall into the category. It has to be said in fairness

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:34 AM

Lizzie why do you generalise so much. According to you, I must be the most useless mother in creation.

I AM a career woman. Having two good incomes has allowed us to provide a great life not only for us but for our son. We live in the country, have our own stables and horses. Our son has had his own pony almost from when he could walk. The money has allowed us to have holidays in the UK and abroad, has allowed him to have almost anything he wants as far as toys, bikes, computer equipment etc are concerned. It has allowed him to attend good (not private/public but state) schools, participate in the Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme, Bronze, Silver and Gold.

He's not a thug nor a spoilt brat and we have never 'bought' his affection or love. He is a normal, well adjusted 19 year old who appreciates what he has, and is going to Uni next year to study Physics.
We are not rich or privileged, we have both suffered redundancy but have got off our backsides and got on with it.

Sorry Lizzie but I'm just getting a little tired of you slagging off women who choose to work to provide for their families. You dont believe women can be career minded and mothers because you've obviously never tried it - perhaps you should before you criticise others.

Oh bye the way I had a ceasarian too, so I'm probably not fit to look after a child, in your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM

To Green Wellies.

You are making the mistake of treating Lizzie as someone who knows what she is talking about and cares sincerely when she writes something. As likely as not she will change her mind within the next week, or completely forget about something that is mind-blowingly important this week.

Thus in the thread about "Home Education" the National Trust was a wonderful organisation who had "head-hunted" her daughter.

In the thread about "Searches at Work" - the same National Trust becom a totally different animal, full of hard-line know-nothing managers with huge bureaucratic procedures, and from which Lizzie was forced to resign.

Personally I try hard not to get involved except when she is factually incorrect; when she quotes something without understanding it; when she makes a reference to something that doesn't in fact say what she says it says; when she has got her information from the Daily Mail, and when she talks horlicks about folk music.

The trouble is that these occur all too frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:13 AM

Derrrrrrrr Well yes I am an intellegent career woman but I fell for it hook, line and sinker. Thanks for confirming my suspecions. I'll go and have a nice cup of tea.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:21 AM

And I'm off to cook tea ready for when my wife gets home from work. She likes her evening meal ready after a hard day.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:38 AM

Er...wasn't forced to resign, Dave. Don't twist things, as ever. I chose to. Thanks.

"Oh bye the way I had a ceasarian too, so I'm probably not fit to look after a child, in your eyes."

I don't give a damn how children come into the world, actually, so long as they're loved when they get here. What the ?????? has having a Caeserian to do with this?

Mindboggled smiley...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:57 AM

Folkiedave I'm impressed !!! I shall be doing the horses, cooking the dinner and then doing the ironing, thats before I shove the kids up the chimney to give it a clearn, because I'm too busy being a career woman, to get a chimney sweep.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 11:59 AM

"All being said, and breaking some sterotypes, I also know there are some good househubbies out there too. We can generalise that, on average, women do more of the work at home and with the children, but not all men fall into the category. It has to be said in fairness
"


Oh heck, don't get me started on a 'Have Men Been Emasculated by Women?' thread, whatever you do! ;0)

Actually, I'd not be a man for all the tea in China in this Woman Orientated World these days..but that's a whole other story...for which, as ever, I'll be grumped at for...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 12:20 PM

I ahd already done the washing, ironing and cleaning!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

Forced to resign?

I thought you said that you resigned. Because you couldn't stand it any longer.

I'd dared to tell him that those in HQ had lost sight of what the NT was about..what it stood for, how much it meant to so many people...and they'd become like double glazing salesman, forcing us to sell, sell, sell, whilst not listening to us about how our customers hated it..how it drove them away..I got passionate, not abusive, telling him I was giving up a job I loved, because I could not work for people for whom I have no respect...and I waved my hands around in exasperation...and passion....but he was one of The Dingbats, with a capital THE...and The National Trust...sorry...'National Trust' is now, sadly in their hands..

I knew that my job had already 'gone' in my head, because I will never give in to Corporate Crap, let alone be the carrier of it to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 12:30 PM

Oh heck, don't get me started on a 'Have Men Been Emasculated by Women?' thread, whatever you do! ;0)

Correct. Don't get her started.

Hey ho - back to cooking........

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 12:33 PM

I do not mind living in a man's world... as long as I can be a woman in it ;-)

I think that was Marilyn Monroe

In reality I doubt many women would swap men their place. I know I wouldn't

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 12:42 PM

No, Dave...as I said, I chose to resign. There is a big difference. I also told Fiona Reynolds how sad I felt to leave a job I loved so much, but....I am no hypocrite and I will not work to their 'new rules'.

And now..back to *this* thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: mg
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM

Yes..I think mothers are undervalued. I also think a number of women should not have had children when they did and under circumstances that they did, and society at large tolerated rather than approved of this reproduction, which can range from accidental to irresponsible to toxic to society. I also think some elements of society are way too prone to excuse any behavior a mother exhibits and absolves her of responsibility for some awful things...such as bringing bad boyfriends in the house, resulting in perhaps domestic abuse, perhaps a drug environment and perhaps abuse of daughters in particular. So yes and no. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 01:47 PM

I would just like to say that I have a career and I am also a great mum. And my daughter is pretty fantastic as well.

That's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

The same was true for me Ruth - my daughter has become a wonderful woman and is now a very good mother to her own son, whilst working part time, chairing the PTA and getting involved in my grandson's other activities.

Conversely I personally know a number of women, at home full time, who are not good mothers, or homemakers with households in which children are being 'dragged up'.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 08:17 PM

I too was a single mum- my daughter never really knew her father until she was almost grown. She is now the mother of three herself, married for almost 25 years to a lawyer-turmed-pastor, her chldren in college or in the last year of high school. I'm very proud of her- not least because she did a lot of it on her own- at the age of 12 she got herself out of bed on Sunday mornings and walked to church.

I respected her need to do so- and still do.

The thing I did best by her is teaching her and showing her that she could accomplish anything she wanted.

The fact that I was a working mother had nothing to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 09:59 PM

Those of us who experienced wicked stepmothers think mothers are greatly unervalued in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 09 - 10:07 PM

Rig, you remind me- my sister in law and I used to trade off babysitting our two girls. Her method of discipline relied fairly heavily on a spank, mine consisted of gathering them to my knee and explaining earnestly what they had done wrong and why it had to stop.

In the midst of it one day, my five or six year old niece's eyes welled up and she sobbed, You sound just like a wicked step mother.

lol

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 08:25 AM

That is funny, Ebbie. Apparently, the talk had more effect than the spank.
As far as I can tell, mothers are treasured by society at least in my world. Children are treasured as well. Our company bends over backwards for new mothers and fathers. They even celebrate the birth of each new baby.
Sadly, too many people who should not be allowed to have a pet go ahead and have children. The news is filled with horror stories. But that is not the norm. Whether a woman chooses to stay at home and raise her children or to go to work for herself or the children, mothers are critical and always have been. Seems a silly topic actually.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 10:04 AM

Er..excuse me, but I'm not 'having a go' at mothers who choose to work because they so often have no choice...and they work damned hard doing 2 jobs, that of raising their children and putting food on the table for them etc...

What I'm asking is does society undervalue the importance of mothers in the first place?

Would a society that truly recognised the importance of mothers pay them to stay home and do an important job? I think France does this...or used to..and the French still seem to have a family society, where children aren't falling over sideways in an alcoholic stupor after having sex with complete strangers they met in the club earlier that night...(obviously, I'm generalising here)

We now have a society where many young women naturally assume that putting your child into state care is the normal thing to do, as is going back to work. That feeling has been created artificially, in my opinion, by two things.   The first being the feminists who so convinced women it was their 'right' to have a career alongside motherhood...and the Corporate giants who rubbed their hands in glee as women flocked to work, seizing the opportunity of now having TWO salaries to steal...and so the cost of living began to rise and rise and rise...as did the expectations of that 'living'...new this, new that, big car, big house, big holiday...until it reached the point where most mothers now have no choice BUT to work, because so many families can now barely exist on just one salary alone due to how much everything costs.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 10:47 AM

"The first being the feminists who so convinced women it was their 'right' to have a career alongside motherhood..."

But it is my right. And I thank the women who paved the way, because as it happens I do both jobs very well. Even now, as a single mum.

As others have pointed out, there are plenty of "stay at home" mums whose kids are allowed to run feral and who invest very little time in their upbringing, and there are dedicated mums who also manage a fulfilling career, and whose sense of fulfilment, confidence and achievement in the workplace makes them more contented people and, as a result, better parents.

Having a career isn't for everyone. Neither is staying at home. Neither choice makes you, de facto, a better parent. Showing your children love and commitment, giving them boundaries and investing them with self-worth are the best things you can do for your kids, and these things are achievable whether you have a career or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM

When I was very small, my mother asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. My response was "I want to be a nothing like you Mom."

It was a family tale/joke. But actually it defined women in the 50s. We have come a long way at least in making decisions as to what we want and the freedom to achieve our goals.

Two of my sister-in-laws were atay at home moms and loved their lives. One wanted a career and when her child and sibling (she raised) went to school, she started working part time then full time. She is now an executive with a thriving food company.

One sister-in-law did not want children and had none. She also chose not to work - her choice and my brother supported it.

I was a single mom and spent every non-working minute with my son. Arranged my schedule to sttend the ball games and school plays and whatever else. I was one of the more active parents in his school. My theory is "If you want something done, ask a busy person."

All of us had the luxury of deciding what we wanted to do. My mother was a very unhappy woman who loved working but only did it when dad was "on strike". When she was not working she was depressed and drank. Too bad - we would have all been happier if Mom had worked full time.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM

I too give thanks for Feminists! The women that fought tooth and nail against an overwhelmingly patriarchal culture for women's equality, have my every respect.
I'm not as stridently feminist as some members of older generations may be - I suspect it's probably because I have the luxury of inheriting the fruits of their hard-won battles that I don't *have* to be. But my guess is, that if I were a mere handful of decades older, I'd be a far less relaxed person about gender politics, and no doubt as militant as the best of them. And of course I do wear boots.. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 01:38 PM

"The first being the feminists who so convinced women it was their 'right' to have a career alongside motherhood..."

Hmmm...'duty' is more what I meant, rather than 'right'

.....a feeling created that suddenly, just being at home with your children wasn't enough, or expected any longer...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 02:49 PM

I don't know where this perception comes from - I know plenty of stay-at-home mums, and they don't seem to feel any particular pressure to go out and have a career. Some work a few hours a week to get themselves out of the house and earn a bit of pocket money - also seems to help to keep them from going stir crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: SINSULL
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 03:20 PM

Funny - as I remember it, women were barred from some occupations, limited in others and not paid the same as men in others. Motherhood had little or nothing to do with the beginnings of the movement.
Check back to the episode of All In The Family when Archie (and half the male population in the US) could not figure out a simple riddle about a boy and his doctor.
There were no female doctors or dentists. There were no women in any of the manual trades. Women could be teachers or nurses or secretaries and that was it. It was presumed they would marry or become old maid school teachers. It meant that their earnings were limited.
My first job in 1971 was for an employment agency. A very progreesive firm had started hiring women for inside sales positions and as placement counselors.
The catch? I was limited to jobs paying $10,000 per year. If I got a listing for a higher paying position, I had to turn it over to a male co-worker BECAUSE he had a family to support. My work, my contacts and he got the cash. When a woman got a listing for an entire union shop, it was taken from her until the union boss refused to work with anyone else. She closed the deal, placed the workers and was fired.

That's what the first feminists were about - forcing schools like Harvard and Princeton to take women and educate them as well as men so that they could compete in the man's world if they chose. Putting an end to the sexual harrassment and rapes that took place in offices because of the good old boy network. I had a salesman offer me to a customer in trade for a contract. I had a supervisor threaten to block my promotion if I did not sleep with him.

That's the crap we got militant about. No one underestimated mothers or motherhood. In fact, protection of battered women grew out of the movement. The movement was for all women to be free to choose their path.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 05:55 PM

Thanks you Mary for setting the record straight and for doing it so succinctly.

The problem is not that women or motherhood is undervalued. It is that families as a whole unit are undervalued.

The idea of motherhood as stay at home mom who lived to serve her family is a very limited construct applicable to only specific times and economies.

We are generations away from the time when living in same quarters or even same neighborhoods with extended family helping each other, looking out for and correcting children was the norm.

While all the automated conveniences have given both men and women more time to waste, they find they have to work longer hours to pay for both the conveniences and the leisure activities. This work that keeps roof over head and food on table is now done away from the home and children instead of side by side.

It is a cumulative problem over the generations.   Children of working parents feel disenfranchised and parents feel guilty about the quantity and quality of time spent with kids. So they buy relief from the quilt with leniency on kids behavior and by caving to every whim. Each subsequent generation growing a little worse. Acquistiveness grows with each generation as media and market work to make us want, want, want more and more and more.

Children with stay at home moms began feeling like the weird ones and so when they are ripe for procreating they seek to imitate the kind of life style their friends with all the freedom and neato stuff had.

Working population becomes more transient as adults chase better jobs more money. Dragging kids away from the society, safety and instruction of grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins. The village no longer raises the child. The community is just a word local governments use to look good. Personal responsibility gone too. Sue McDonalds because the coffee at drive through was too hot.

Kids from middle socio economic backgrounds become disruptive in school and start the downward spiral of failure, act out, failure, act out harder until it becomes criminal and/or they drop out. Then become teenage parents, burden on society and no clue how to raise a child.

Some will claim that no generation knew how to raise children. Lots of accidents and illnesses and death, abuse too. The golden age for children was really only for a select few, in certain areas of the world at different times in history.

I know... pretty grim outlook. Just looking at a couple of millenia of trends.


Done with my load of supreme bullshit for the day.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:29 PM

Very grim outlook, VT. Your scenario may represent some families and children, but it doesn't represent lots and lots of others. To say all children of all working parents feel disenfranchised is ridiculous. When I was married we were very hands-on parents. We spent lots of time together and did loads of things together as a family. We were also able, because of the careers and the income we had, to give our daughter certain advantages which were not based on possessions, but experiences. Thus she learned to ski in Switzerland, to scuba dive in Egypt; she went on safari in Zambia and stayed in a traditional village there with local people. She has travelled all over the world, with us, and we have shared those experiences - most recently, she and I went to Venice together in June, just the two of us. We went to galleries, we went sightseeing, we drank wine, we laughed a lot. It was brilliant.

Would we have been able to do all these things without being working parents? No. Did we manage to be engaged, interested and supportive parents while still maintaining our careers? It wan't always easy, but I would say that, on balance, we didn't do too badly. If anything, it was usually one of our careers (mine) that took a back seat when necessary, rather than family life. Has the life we have been able to give our daughter expanded her horizons and given her the ambition and the confidence to follow her dreams, no matter what they may be? I really hope so.

"The idea of motherhood as stay at home mom who lived to serve her family is a very limited construct applicable to only specific times and economies."

Yeah - very, very limited. In fact, the working mother has always been the rule rather than the exception, apart really from a few decades of the 20th century. Go the the National Trust's Back to Backs Museum in Birmingham. You'll see firsthand how, in the Victorian period, women worked in manufacturing industries from home. They made stuff on a production line basis and, despite working in their homes, didn't really have the time or the energy to do much mothering - when the kids were not working, they were dragging themselves up. This ideal of the stay-at-home mother who did nothing but look after her kids was a brief 20th century construct which fell apart every time there was a war, anyway.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to raising children - you need to do what works best for you and your family, whatever family means in your individual circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:40 PM

Hi Ruth ;)

V

I didn't say "All" just looking at how things went in my little world. And my take on what I have seen of wider world.   I was child of working mom and went the opposite direction. I stayed home with my kids for first 14 years. Partly because I was uneducated /unskilled. But I loved most of that time home with them, because I hadn't had it as a kid.

I wouldn't say I am a norm though.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM

My mother went back to school when I was 6 weeks old, but she had the extended family of my grandmother and her sisters to look after me. I guess I had the best of both worlds. My mother worked to support us and give me a decent standard of living, and my grandmother gave me all the care and attention of a stay at home mum. It was a win-win in many ways. If anything, the one who lost out was my mother, who worked out of necessity rather than choice, and missed a lot of my childhood.

I stayed at home with mine till she was 4 and was going to school. Then i went back to university, re-trained for my current career, and haven't really looked back. As I say, whatever works for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM

*that should have said my mother went back to work when I was 6 weeks old, not school!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 03:03 AM

Are Mothers undervalued by society?

Some are, some are not. Exactly the same as the rest of the human race. Should Mothers be valued justy because they are Mothers or should each one be valued on her own merits? Most Mothers are wonderful and their value well established. Some are just as good and taken very much for granted. Some do not deserve the title and should be banned from being anywhere near children.

How does being a Mother give anyone more right to demand special treatment than anyone else? Completely nonsensical premise I'm afraid.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 09:17 AM

ALL PEOPLE are "undervalued by society." That's how society keeps on rolling: one of the ways people are kept back from supporting one another for real change is to divide them up according to who is more victimized than whom, at any given moment, group by group.

But at bottom, it isn't people who devalue people-- it's societal structures.

Until all people give up hoarding their own brand of victimization, no one will be free of it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:19 PM

"How does being a Mother give anyone more right to demand special treatment than anyone else? Completely nonsensical premise I'm afraid." DeG

Bravo, David! I have thought that for a long time. Since most people find themselves parents at some time in their lives, what one does with the resulting child is what is important. And I speak as a parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 12:40 PM

I'm in total agreement, Ebbie and David.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:09 PM

Actually I resent the freakin' schools and others when they first meet us asking all the questions to Karen. Its humorous actually when my reasonably shy wife asks them quite purposefully in her best authoritarian voice, "Why are asking me?   Pat has always been the stay-at-home parent." Then we both give them an awkwardly silent period until they begin to apologize. Then we both give them a smile and a laugh and tell them its just a routine we do.

Unintentional bigotry can be fun!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM

I think it all boils down to individual situations. I was raised by a single mother who worked full time and it was the extremely rare occasion that I felt neglected or not at the top of her list.

Now, as a married woman who is expecting a child via adoption, I left my job as a teacher as my husband and I feel it is really important FOR US to have one parent home, full time until our child is at least 7 years old...maybe longer. But like I said, this is the decision we feel is right FOR US. It tightens our financial belt considerably but since neither of us has ever lived to work (rather we work to live), that's not so much of an issue. Should the time arise when I need to go back to work due to financial reasons, we'll do that...but for now, our plan, our desire, is to have one parent home, full time to tend to the child/children and the house. Currently there are no children here and we are finding that our household life runs MUCH smoother which makes life easier and happier for both of us.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Amergin
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 02:14 PM

Well I know I would be embarrassed to say I'm a mother first and foremost....

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Nov 09 - 05:05 PM

Well, I'm glad for that, 'Gin.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 07:03 PM

French still seem to have a family society, where children aren't falling over sideways in an alcoholic stupor after having sex with complete strangers they met in the club earlier that night...(obviously, I'm generalising here)

I can only speak of the UK in terms of a major northern idustrial city famed for its night-life. For a number of reasons I come across quite a lot of young people, They seem pretty normal to me and certainly down the two major "strips" they drink and in the main seem to enjoy themselves. One or two get into an alcoholic stupor. So do some of the adults I meet.

I don't know how much sex they are having - I don't have that sort of prurient interest.

But I am happy to bow to your greater knowledge if it is in fact knowledge. Tell us how you acquired a knowledge of how much sex young people are having Lizzie. Go on......

As for France I read in another thread how you don't go abroad. Lizzie. Surprising how you know about French family life. May I ask how many French families you know? And whether they represent a cross-section of French society?

What I do suspect is that you are believing what you read in newspapers. I'll whisper it again. What you read in the newspapers is not always true.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Janie
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 08:55 PM

I do think that mothers and homemakers continued to be undervalued by society, especially if they are low income mothers and homemakers. The sexual harrassment in the workplace that Sins talked about continues to exist, quite overtly in some companies and circles, but more often quite covertly.

I also think that mothers and homemakers continue to be undervalued by spouses and families, particularly in moderate to lower income families.

I think that the work mothers and homemakers who also work full time in paid employment continues to be undervalued by society and by many spouses.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 10:31 PM

There is so much delicate intuition required to be a mother that it is easy to see how it gets undervalued as the world goes more solidified and money-based rather than cultivating the ability to measure character, virtue, integrity, responsibility and other by products of good raising. These things are less visible and less sought out than they once were, but they are by goddamn every bit as important as they ever were.


Thanks, Mom.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:36 AM

"As for France I read in another thread how you don't go abroad. Lizzie. Surprising how you know about French family life. May I ask how many French families you know? And whether they represent a cross-section of French society?

What I do suspect is that you are believing what you read in newspapers. I'll whisper it again. What you read in the newspapers is not always true. "



Here we go again....undermine, ridicule..etc.etc.etc...Gawd, how boring does it get!

Er...actually, this may come as a complete shock to you, but I do know people who've not only been to France, but who have houses there too, and all of them talk about the difference in the quality of family life out there. How time is taken to sit round the table, share the meal, talk...be together etc...

I have also read, listened, and watched, books, radio, TV, where many people have said the same thing about the quality of life in France and what a different view they have over there.   

However, I am NOT saying that every single French family is perfect, before you insinuate I am. Just a generalisation...based upon many people, unrelated, telling me the same things....and most of them have been mothers themselves, who are worried senseless about what is going on around their children over here...

A Saturday Night in Cardiff

Booze Britain - 'Situation Normal' in Warrington

Loads more there on that page, Dave. How many videos do you want, how many newspaper reports, how many NHS reports, how many, how many, how many? Look it all up! It's practically bankrupting the NHS! There are WHOLE police and ambulance crews around who are just there for the drunken youngsters! Yeesh!


Yeah, maybe you're right, maybe none of this is really happening, and it's all in 'Lizzie's Imagination'...at least that way you can stick your head back up our arse and pretend that there's nowt wrong with our children, our young people, our families, our mothers...

Are mothers undervalued in society? You bet your sweet bippy they are...and if most of those kids had been raised by loving mothers, who were *allowed* to be mothers, rather than the State and their 'child minders', who knows what a difference it may have made...

Personally, I think you are WAY wrong, Dave..because you just do not want to face up to what is going on, even with those images in front of you...and do NOT tell me that is normal behaviour which has always happened throughout life, because it has NOT. I know, I'm 54, and once, you could walk into ANY city centre at night and only see the very occasional drunk, who wasn't normally even violent...You barely saw a police car or an ambulance either...

Today, we'll be getting a report on anti-social behaviour in Cornwall, on our TVs this evening....

It is happening, Dave...WAKE UP!   

Then wake up to a whole generation of kids who have had their mothers all but taken away from them....


And by the way, I used to walk around the streets of Cardiff of an evening...so I know what they were like..There were certain areas, around the docks that you'd not have gone to, but even they weren't like that...The main city was just fine...like any other city used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: DMcG
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:18 AM

"do NOT tell me that is normal behaviour which has always happened throughout life, because it has NOT. I know, I'm 54, and once, you could walk into ANY city centre at night and only see the very occasional drunk"

That may be so, and I'm hardly encouraging drunkness, but there's some evidence that the 50's had unusually low levels of drunken behaviour, rather than now being abnormally high. Look at the history of Gin sales, Hogarth's etchings, and so on. It is worth remembering the battles of the mods and rockers as well - golden ages are few and far between.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:34 AM

Lizzie -I don't do TV with the exception of some sport which I go to the pub to watch - I don't have a TV, and never had had one. I believe it undermines family life. Do you have a TV?

I am not saying it doesn't happen. What I am saying is that that the idea that city streets are full of young people having drunken sex with drunken strangers because their mothers have gone to work is a fatuous link and you have no evidence whatsoever to show the two go together other than your own fertile imagination.

I went out for a meal on Saturday night. The restaurant was full of couples and friends dining together. I was in a pub the other Sunday lunchtime and it was full of families dining together, including my own.

Would you like to guess which was France and which was England?

It is not a case of undermining you. It is a case of asking you to comment on things you actually know and experience yourself or can produce evidence for. Not second-hand stuff that you have seen in the Daily Mail or You Tube.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 06:56 AM

And this is the England that you are so proud of. Lizzie?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 09:12 AM

My daughter is now 16. She has friends whose mothers work. She has friends whose mothers have stayed at home. I do not see any marked difference in the behaviour of the girls whose mothers work and the one whose mothers have chosen to stay at home.

There is, however, a difference betwen different friendship groups at her school, and what they get up to. There are kids whose parents take no responsibility for them and let them go out in town every Friday and Saturday night, either condoning or turning a blind eye to the fact that their 16 year old daughters are using fake ID and going into pubs and clubs. The inability or unwillingness to set parameters and boundaries for one's children is not a particular feature of either stay-at-home mothers or working mothers, in my experience: it is down to different approaches to parenting, and some are a lot better than others.

My daughter's group does not socialise in town - they go to each other's houses and hang out. My daughter had her 16th birthday party on Saturday night. 6 of her friends came round. They made sushi and chattered away in the kitchen before going upstairs. At 9 o'clock my partner and I went out for a meal at the village pub. We returned at midnight and I expected to find a bunch of harridans running around my house. Instead, 5 of them were already in bed, and the two who were still awake were watching a DVD on the computer in another bedroom.

Of the 7 girls who were there (including my daughter), two of them have mums who haven't worked. The others have mums who work full or part-time - yes, some even have the dreaded "career". The thing they have in common is parents who set parameters and expect certain standards of behaviour.

From what my daughter tells me, the girls who go out to pubs and clubs are, at her school, the exception rather than the rule.

I can only speak from my own experience, and prefer to judge based on what I see myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

I expected to find a bunch of harridans running around my house. Instead, 5 of them were already in bed, and the two who were still awake were watching a DVD on the computer in another bedroom.

You just can't get the harridans nowadays. Couldn't have been a decoy could it? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:03 PM

Did you check out the male statues in the drive when you got home Ruth :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 04:34 PM

One of the great things about living in a village is that we're not particularly accessible!

Once the boys are old enough to drive, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 11:32 PM

But at bottom, it isn't people who devalue people-- it's societal structures.

Until all people give up hoarding their own brand of victimization, no one will be free of it.



I applaud the last sentence warmly as a great expression of an important truth.

However, it contradicts (or seems to) the first sentence. Societal structures do not exist beyond the sphere of individual agreement. You subscribe before you are impacted by any belief or cultural norm. There is no source which energizes agreements other than individuals subscribing to and echoing those agreements. Taht's what societal structures are.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 06:18 AM

Ruth, the other thing about living in a village is that, love it or hate it, there will be a number of residents who all know exactly what is going on, where, when, and who was there !!! It has its good side !!!

Personally, and this is from first hand experience, I dont think whether a mother works full-time, part-time or not at all, really has any bearing on a childs behavour.

As I've already posted, my husband and I work full time and always have done. Our son is about as good as any 19year old gap-year lad can be. However, my sister in law, has never worked, her husband earned enough alone to meet all their needs. She has always been there for the children, a total home-maker taking them to school, there when they got home, spending every minute with them. The whole 'stay at home' mom thing. They have three children and it has
to be said compared to our son they are a complete nightmare, speaking back, refusing to help around the home, not saying where they are going. The latest revelation is the oldest she's just about to finish Uni, when I asked her what she would do next she said, 'have a baby'.!! Because you get money of the government and a flat of your own and its easier than going to work !!

So from that you could say that the child with the working parents has turned out better than the children with the stay at home mom. But we know thats just not true. All homes are different, all parents are different, and definitely all children are different.

Are mothers undervalued by society, personally I would say no, ........... but I think anyone can be undervalued, if they allow themselves to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Mothers Undervalued by Society?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 07:10 AM

I'm a stay at home mum and I love it but then my children are 2 and a half and 14 months. Paul and I made the decision together that one of us would stay at home to look after the children until they went to school. We felt it was important that we raised our kids and not a child minder or nursery. As I had taken voluntary redundancy just after we had had our first child and Paul is in a well paid and stable job that I would stay at home. When all 3 go to school then I will look at getting a part time job or even going back to uni. If Paul's job situation changes then we will look at things again, maybe he'll stay at home and I'll go back to work full time.

I don't look at being a mum as a job. It's something we chose to do and I love it. My children are well behaved and I enjoy being with them. I even enjoy looking after the house and cooking the meals, baking and cleaning. I wouldn't say I am undervalued at all. Paul always tells me what a great 'job' I am doing and how much appreciates what I do.

I know some mums who stay at home and live off the state and plan on having more children to increase their benefits. Another thread I know, just a personal bugbear of mine.