BS: Is Google getting political ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 08:52 AM

Not to be pedantic (oh heck, admit it, Brooks - you LOVE being pedantic), but what happened to that signaler's right arm - the one that is supposed to be up at a 45° angle?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:09 AM

That, I admit, is indeed how I find it as I have just googled it.

But that was not, as I recall it, how it was when I passed 'signalling 2nd class badge' in Boy Scouts in 1944: when, to my recollection, A was down left, B horizontal left, C vertical left, D vertical right &c. Perhaps it has been modified. Certainly that must still have been how it was, when ex-Major George Parker suggested the design of the badge based on it to his colleague Peter Cadogan, one of original CND founders, in the staffroom at Chesterton School Cambridge in 1957 when CND was founded; when I was Head of English in that school, 1966-68, George Parker himself told me the tale [though Peter C had left by then & was fully employed by CND & Committee of 100, though his wife Joyce still taught Music]. The upstroke on that old system therefore did for the C & the D, while the N was the two down-at-acute-angle arms as still the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:20 AM

the opportunity for the German army to confuse

"Take Cover"

with

"Take Dover"

would appear significant !! :-)

MtheGM I wish you a happy and peaceful new year

Rafflesbear

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 09:31 AM

Thank you indeed. And the like to you.

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 10:00 AM

The "peace symbol" as it's currently understood in the US is so apolitical that it appears on greeting cards, shopping bags, baby booties, you name it. It has evolved into a secular symbol standing for the same "Peace on Earth, goodwill toward men" sentiments traditionally embodied in more traditional Christian symbols of the season, but without bringing Baby Jesus into the picture.

Such was not always the case even in the US. The symbol made its way to these shores during the Vietnam era and was closely associated with the anti-war movement. It was despised by more hawkish elements of US society as "The Track of the American Chicken". In 1969, walking into certain bars while wearing a piece of clothing emblazoned with a peace sign was a good way to get your ass kicked.

After the Vietnam war ended, the symbol pretty much fell from public view for about twenty years. When it made its reappearance, largely courtesy of the music scene, it no longer carried its former specifically anti-war message. The kids who were wearing it grew up after the war was over. They were not protesting against a war, but making a statement in favor of a more peaceful, sustainable lifestyle. It's in that light that most Americans view the symbol today. Yes, it's a statement of ideals, but those ideals don't necessarily have anything to do with politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: goatfell
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 10:34 AM

aye it is

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:01 PM

"I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning..."


gee... *I* was just trying to help last night by acknowledging real origins that I had not known about before.....while trying to put in perspective what it has become. I'm not sure if I'm supposed to feel guilty now for not 'knowing' earlier.

I marched in Washington DC in a couple of the huge war protests, and wore buttons with that symbol on them, and in those crowds of hundreds of thousands, I doubt there were many who were aware of CND origins. I guess the ocean was much wider then, without the WWW to keep us colonials informed. *wry smile"

I will now retire to the far corner and try on my hair shirt..... ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 12:42 PM

It may not be more applicable to lambast us 'innocent Yanks' for not being aware or observant of the symbol's original meaning than it would be to berate us for not acknowledging or celebrating the 'original' meaning of the various aspects and icons of Hallowe'en. So there. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 03:43 PM

Yes, Ebbie. But now that you have been made aware, you seem to be digging yourself behind a 'don't care if it was, so pooh·2·U' wall of subjective self-regarding inward-looking insouciance. You guys over there can think what you like, and Jeri can go on insisting that 'most people' view it as you lot over there do. But now you know that 50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently, how can you still persist in denying the possibility of another POV? And do you think that Google [who are the predominant provider in this country as well, you know] shouldn't have known the origin — it is their business to know such things, isn't it?

[BTW we didn't even do Halloween & pumpkins & trick-or-treat and all that bollox till the last few years when your pernicious commercialised influence caught on. It was certainly never part of my childhood.]

So there right back 2U -
; ~)§

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:01 PM

I know there's another point of view. I simply don't believe it's significant to the vast majority of Google users, whether they're in this thread or simply not complaining about the 'peace' part of the logo. You certainly have a right to be enjoy being offended by anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

OK, OK, MtheGM!

HOWEVER. None of you has told us what is actually so offensive about the no-nukes symbol.

After I asked - but NOT in response to my question - someone did remark on the unacceptable 'UNILATERAL' nature of the CND effort.

Incidentally I take umbrage at the "vanilla" label. To me, the symbol is a powerful reminder of what we are all on about.

It is very true that we in the US have been most fortunate in not having to face war in our homeland in our memory but that is not something AGAINST us. May YOU be so lucky. And if that be vanilla..

Backatcha, jack.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:32 PM

'Offensive'/'offended' - used in last two posts: not quite the right word[s]. Let me draw your attention again to the title of this thread, which the OP chose to give it. The only point I have been making thruout is that the symbol under discussion has a specific history, having originated in what was unarguably a political statement — that the UK should unilaterally disarm itself of all nuclear weapons. Whether or not one agrees with that position or not [I did at first but developed doubts as to its viability later], it is a political statement. The fact that the symbol was later adapted for other purposes does not alter the fact of its original meaning. But a whole lot of the replies from the US were predicated on the suggestion that, because they didn't know that, it couldn't be the case; or if it was it didn't matter anyhow because only what Americans think matters [how else is one to interpret Jeri's 'Most people', for example?] — an odd sort of confused, illogical, being in denial as to the facts of the case. No point saying OK! OK! to me, my dears: I am not getting heated. But some of you seem to be getting a bit agitated at having unwelcome facts drawn to your attention — going into denial, I say again, aren't you?...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:49 PM

Why would you assume I meant Americans by 'most people'? You say the symbol has a history. I'm not arguing about that. I just don't think it means the same as it used to.

As an aside, there are 'swastikas' all over South Korea--they mark Buddhist temples. (Sort of freaked me out when I first saw them, until someone explained to me.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 04:52 PM

I don't feel heated in the least, Mike. But I will continue to point out that Google is not a governmental body or taxpayer-supported and has its roots in the US. As such, it is probably as "innocent" (read 'naive') as we. And is entitled to it own opinions. Google, as Susan pointed out, is a commercial enterprise. I'm sure that if it were aware of the sordid history of a peace symbol it would desist. :)

And if the display of the CND/Peace symbol is not "offensive", why is anyone offended?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 05:11 PM

Jeri - it still means the same here. If it didn't the OP would not even have started this thread, would he? But, since you persist in denying that it can still mean the same to us as it always did — though we are here to tell you that it does, and you are not — I still wonder what you can possibly have meant, within that context, by 'most people', if not that only American opinion counts IYO.

Nobody is 'offended', I repeat, Ebbie; there are just some who feel that a supposedly impartial forum-provider is acting inappropriately in using an explicitly political symbol as a logo. You say you now realise it has an explicitly political history, but still appear to be denying the implications of this.

If Google is a commercial enterprise, is it not being a little unwise in acting in a fashion liable to alienate, or at least give pause to [as it clearly has done - hence, I repeat, this thread] a substantial segment of its clientele?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

Well, the image has disappeared, except for this archive.

In context, it sure seems like it was not intended to be political. I wonder if Google knows it was seen that way by so many? I wonder what they will do next year?

In a world so polarized and divided, it is hard to avoid upsetting, offending or 'bothering' to some degree various factions.

[Just remembered that years ago, the Eudora email program used to use a rotating ☯ (Yin-Yang) symbol when waiting for mail. Some religious group... (Buddhist, I think) complained that it 'had deeper significance', and Eudora removed it.]

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM

My mistake... Eudora provided a WAY to remove it and substitute something else.

hmmm.. I distinctly remembered my version being changed.


But while Googling, I found this:
"I place this action in the same category as those Southern Baptists who
objected to the Unix checking software called "Satan" and caused a version
to be distributed renamed "Santa" - "
----------------------------------------------------------------------



(I know, Mike, this is different from your specific concerns. It is just one more illustration, to me, of the difficulties of navigating the complexities of political/cultural/religious references.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

"Innocents, vanilla, bland"...how mature and great technique. Does that come with a virtual pat on the head?

What a bunch of fucking crap. Murray, I echo Spaw...luvyadarlin', but really!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Dec 09 - 07:22 PM

I'd be interested in knowing if that symbol has the same restricted meaning to the adolescent and adult grandchildren of those who are so concerned by its "misuse" on this side of the ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 12:35 AM

Dear Kat, What's with this 'virtual pat on the head'? Why are you & Ebbie & Jeri having so much difficulty coming to terms with the fact that the way you view things over there are not always identical to the way we do over here [or, to accommodate artbrooks' last query, some of the older among us do]; and then, when this is pointed out to you, falling back [as you are doing here] with accusations that you are being patronised? Nobody is trying to patronise you; there are no 'virtual pats on the head' involved: we are just trying to point out that yours is not the only world-view in existence. But, oh dear me, that won't do! 'What a bunch of fucking crap,' you exclaim [if anyone doesn't believe me, just scroll up two to Kat's last post'.

So who, pray, is patronising whom? Who is virtually patting whom on the head. What a bunch of fucking crap right back 2U, Kat.

HNY just the same - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:54 AM

OK. What do you think we should do about it, Mike? Given that we obviously don't have the visceral   response to the issue that you and some others do, what would you like us to do? Or say? Would you like us to apologize? Would it suffice if we apologized for the insensitivity and ignorance of Google? I don't happen to be a s Google stockholder so I doubt that my opinion would count for much.

Incidentally, you have said or implied several times that Google is an "impartial" entity. Who says? Do they specifically say so?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:20 AM

Why, Ebbie: I think you should simply adjust to the fact that this sign under consideration was political in origin and retains such overtones to some; rather than denouncing this fact as, in some way I can't quite fathom, patronising to you and hence 'a load of fucking crap' [Kat]; or as not what 'most people' think [Jeri]. What else has ever been implied?

Google's Philosophy statement in their Culture segment runs in part:—

===Google's founders have often stated that the company is not serious about anything but search... Google puts users first when it comes to our online service===

I would interpret that as an intent of impartiality, wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:56 AM

I am not comfortable with MtheGM speaking for virtually the entire british nation possibly including me - indeed he hints that much of Europe agrees with his viewpoint -

"50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently"

As someone who on his own admission was heavily involved in the CND movement his viewpoint is undoubtedly coloured by his experience

Things change and a great deal of time has passed since the symbol first appeared - as artbrooks suggests there will undoubtedly be many who have grown up since who know nothing of these origins

I accept that I can no longer tell people that I am feeling gay without conveying a false impression. MtheGM accepts that the semaphore signalling system is different now than it was when he was in the scouts. I also accept that the CND symbol has taken on a far greater meaning than it originally had and I would have thought that the originators would be PROUD that it has.

if 50,000,000 people agree with MtheGM let them or some of them join this thread and support the argument because at the moment all we can say for sure is that 3 people think that way and one of those seems prepared to accept that it has changed. "Clearly that was here and then. The symbol means something more general and apolitical now, throughout the rest of the world at any rate."

In the meantime this is one Brit who is quite comfortable (and proud) that the people of this land have created a worldwide symbol of peace however it originated

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:12 AM

Here's what the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament have to say about how the disarmament symbol has been used abroad and in other contexts:

"The Disarmament Symbol goes global
This "CND logo" was not however confined to these shores. The "peace symbol", as it is usually dubbed outside Britain, was first brought over to the United States by Bayard Rustin, a key figure in the civil rights movement of the 1960s and a protestor at the 1958 Aldermaston march. Consequently, the symbol was used in civil rights marches and later spread to anti-Vietnam War demonstrations. Since then it has appeared around the world not only as a sign for nuclear disarmament but also as the international hallmark of peace." [...]
"The Freedom of the Peace Symbol
[example of an advert using CND symbol was here]
Although specifically designed for the anti-nuclear movement it has quite deliberately never been copyrighted. No one has to pay or to seek permission before they use it. A symbol of freedom, it is free for all. This of course sometimes leads to its use, or misuse, in circumstances that CND and the peace movement find distasteful. It is also often exploited for commercial, advertising or general fashion purposes. We can't stop this happening and have no intention of copyrighting it. All we can do is to ask commercial users if they would like to make a donation. Any money received is used for CND's peace education and information work."

In response to a message below, I find it dissapointing somewhat that the CND logo has been diluted to more general terms. I find it dissapointing as I clearly remember when growing up in the Eighties the stand that the women at Greenham Common made against Cruise Missiles being stationed there (I believe this camp was the longest lasting in the world). The CND logo really meant something very specific in campaign terms, and people made vast efforts in campaigning against nukes (Greenham Common Peace Camp), it really wasn't just a token general 'symbol' and it still does mean something very strident to me.

I thought it interesting however that CND have chosen not to copywrite their logo, and have intentionally left it to be used by anyone who wishes to.
SO at the end of the day, I guess the choice was made by CND themselves to freely allow the disarmament logo to be used outside of their specific nuclear disarmament agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:27 AM

Oops my link to Greenham Common below didn't work - another here: BBC on the Women's Greenham Common Anti-Nukes Peace Camp

Heh, there's even a songbook!

Greenham Common Peace Camp Archive - Including Songbook!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:17 AM

Rafflesbear - Just to observe that, just as I mourn the pleasant word 'gay', unusable in its former meaning since pre-empted by an interest-group for their own purposes because they didn't like being called 'queer': with which I entirely sympathise - but no other adjective has quite that overtone of cheerful insouciance that 'gay' used to have, so I think it a pity the language should have lost it —

— so I regret the loss of the traditional, and beautiful,"white Noah's dove" symbol for Peace, in favour of this less meaningful in that context, but once much more meaningful in another, former, exclusively [tho never copyrighted as matter of policy - thank you for that, Crow Sister] for Unilateral-Disarmament-politics, connotation.

I think the languages of both semantics and symbolism are greatly the poorer for these two changes in interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:22 AM

"I think the languages of both semantics and symbolism are greatly the poorer for these two changes in interpretation."

Yes, me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 05:34 AM

In the interest of peace on Mudcat may I offer this contribution

peace symbol

this displays the controversial symbol together with the dove and an acknowledgement of the origins in CND - what more can anyone ask ?   :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 06:53 AM

Well, this has been an interesting thread IMO.

At the very least, we have all learned something, and Mike's eloquent post above @ 5.17 sums up exactly my stance on the matter.

Maybe now we can let peace reign again on the 'Cat

Oh, and season's greetings to you too 'Spaw, I look forward to crossing swords again in the New Year !

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 09:41 AM

I mourn the pleasant word 'gay', unusable in its former meaning since pre-empted by an interest-group for their own purposes because they didn't like being called 'queer'....

In the US, at least, "queer" is a perfectly acceptable, even preferred, term of reference for many homosexuals, both male and female. It was once considered highly insultive, but the homosexual community seems to have adopted it as a way of stripping it of its power. It's members of the straight community who think "queer" is an insult while "gay" is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:20 AM

Sorry Bee-Dub........you can't be right on that as we're pathetic, dumbass, USAers, and we don't have the ability to think but simply to rape and pillage! All that is correct and right in the world resides in England. All that is ignorant and simpleminded lives here. Give up your quest for discussion as you have no right to an opinion. I now dismiss myself to the Dunce's Corner where I will piss on my head and sing, "God Save the Drag Queens".......................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:57 AM

..."All that is correct and right in the world resides in England" ...

hey Spaw, I live in Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:16 AM

...we're pathetic, dumbass, USAers, and we don't have the ability to think but simply to rape and pillage!

Speak for yourself. I prefer sacking over pillaging.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

Remember, pillage and sack first, then burn!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 11:57 AM

""But now you know that 50,000,000 people in this country, and who knows how many more in the rest of Europe, view it differently,""

I suspect that 49,900,000 people this side of the pond don't actually give a damn MtheGM.

I don't recall you asking, nor me giving, permission for you to stand forth representing your views as my own.

You get one opinion only on this forum pal. and I will quite happily supply mine without outside assistance.

This matter is only sightly less important than whether you say "sidewalk" or "pavement", and not worth vilifying a nation to prove a point.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:12 PM

Don T —

This standard-form reply, held in my word-processor memory, is the only response I propose to make to your recent post:—

It is my principle to make no further answer than this to merely abusive posts addressed to me.

No further correspondence will be entered into.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM

Was the turnip too sharp for your tummies?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:28 PM

"I suspect that 49,900,000 people this side of the pond don't actually give a damn MtheGM."

While I suspect it's meaningless to speak of UK V's US 'interpretations' of the symbol. My guess is that the only people who might "give a damn" about the CND disarmament logo, are people who actually "gave a damn" about the Anti-Nuclear Weapons campaign (for which it was designed) in the first place. And many did give a damn, and spent a great deal of time fighting against that.

Of course not all of the UK gave a damn about nuclear weapons being here, even in the Eighties. And not all of England give a damn about Nukes being here now. In fact many actively *applauded* the UK stationing nuclear bombs here: all in the name of "PEACE" (ha ha) of course - which indeed is a very problematic issue as far as the overall discussion is concerned!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

Peace. And out.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

I asked this previously - but no-one answered.

Were or are there any equivalent *anti-nuclear* organisations in the US?

CND became most active during the 'cold war' period of proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 01:55 PM

MtheGM - can you not see that rather than 50,000,000 people lining up behind you to support what you say, you and Murray are the only people on this thread who are holding this position

Look sergeant - all the others are out of step except my Tommy

if you insist on maintaining your lone crusade to turn the clock back then the post by Don T will not be the last abusive one you receive (I predict)

So far those good people from the western side of the pond have maintained relatively good humour in the face of your criticism of their "closed minds" - I put it to you that their minds are no more closed than yours and their argument is no less valid than your own. There are shades of opinion on this as to the current meaning of the symbol and as far as I can see yours is based on "this originally meant CND" while theirs is based on "thanks for telling us but we now believe it is used to mean peace"

If this thread can keep going over such a flimsy debate is it any wonder that there was no agreement at Copenhagen

There are actually much more serious matters on the nuclear debate that we could be discussing rather than 'is the logo grey or dark grey'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:27 PM

Crow Sister, by and large, I don't think that the US ever had a really large "unified" anti-nuclear movement. That is (and all IMHO, of course) the ban-the-bomb people and the anti-reactor Luddites were largely separate. There were certainly exceptions, of course, but I think that most Americans thought (and think) of these as two very different issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:36 PM

"you and Murray are the only people on this thread who are holding this position"

Well, I think that the "position" (is it one?) being held (by three of us maybe ;-) ) so to speak, is simply one that it's rather a shame that such an initially focused and potent (political? Yes I think so!) symbol, has effectively become diminished to a general comfy 'feel good' sign, to stick on anything commercial - lollipops, burgers, greetings cards, you name it...

Anything really *meaningful* will arouse difference of opinion, but it appears that the disarmament logo is now a general diffuse 'nice' thing. No-one can disagree with 'Peace' per-se, but the CND movement were about TAKING SPECIFIC ACTION to secure it. Action which caused great difference of opinion! Like it or loathe it, it was a dynamic image representing dynamic people with a focused purpose, and certainly not amorphous generalised huggyness to be stuck on "Happy Holiday's" cards.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:45 PM

Crow Sister - the differentiation I make between yourself and the 2 Ms is that (if I've got it right) they do not acknowledge the meaning has changed and that therefore the inclusion by Google was political, while you wish that it had not changed but recognise that it has - and I think with that point of view there might be more support

Rafflesbear

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 02:54 PM

""if you insist on maintaining your lone crusade to turn the clock back then the post by Don T will not be the last abusive one you receive (I predict)""

Thing is Raffles, I dispute that my post was abusive.

When somebody asks me for my opinion, I will render it without rancour.

When he gives his opinion I will treat it with a degree of respect, whether or no I agree with it.

But when somebody arrogantly presumes to include me when telling the world his opinion, I feel that I have the right to take him to task over that presumption.

The abuse was his, when he chose to speak for 50,000,000 strangers, whose opinions he could not possibly predict, and no high and mighty sniffy reaction will make him right.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:10 PM

Rafflsebear - Yes I get your meaning.

I agree. In direct response to the OP, I don't believe Google were being intentionally "political" in their use of what has now become internationally adopted as the 'Peace Sign'. CND chose to allow free use of their symbol - it was their choice.

As an aside though I also tend to agree with MtheGM on personally preferring the Dove of Peace as representing the *beauty* of Peace as an humanitarian or even spiritual IDEAL.

I'm afraid the CND logo will never tally with that image for *me*, as it's got far too much of an immediate human history etched into my memory. I was a child during the height of the CND movement - when Maggie and Ronny Raygun were playing cowboys with nuclear missiles.

When I was a kid, my Mums mate was going to take her daughter to Greenham Common Peace Camp to protest against the Cruise Missiles, my Mother thought her mate was daft - but secretly I wished that it was my Mum taking me there. And I'm still deeply impressed by what those women did. Eighteen years of action and vigilance, for a very specific anti-nuclear weapons purpose. So the CND logo will always remain what it was for me. Though of course I do acknowledge that images get co-opted and altered and that unlike me, Google and the rest of the world were not in the UK during the Cold-War ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:13 PM

Sorry Don - as you say - firm but fair.

you may have noticed that I have taken the same stance regarding the hijacking of my opinion earlier in the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Marion
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 03:47 PM

Back in the dim mists of my fundamentalist upbringing, I remember being told that what the peace symbol really represented was a cross, upside-down and with its arms broken - i.e., a satanic symbol being passed off as something innocent. Anyone else ever encounter that interpretation?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

This thoroughly pointless thread has missed one essential point about Google. They have geotargetted home pages.

If it was on google.com - peace symbol, non political
If it was on google.co.uk - CND symbol, political statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:13 PM

"From: GUEST,PeterC - PM
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

This thoroughly pointless thread"

Ahh, did it make you feel all pompous and superior pointing out how pointless this thread (that you have deigned to reduce yourself to responding to) is, or did it make you feel all smutty and dirty and common simply doing so, like the rest of us? ;-)