BS: Is Google getting political ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:59 AM

I do understand your point, dear Michael--and we will leave it there. Happy New Year as well!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 08:26 AM

If Big Mick's post is representative of the other Americans, most of you interpret this logo as a generic peace symbol and hadn't previously been aware of its origins.

Howard, once again I say that you have it right. This thread is now almost 5 days old and in the first five hours that was already becoming apparent from the posts of artbrooks, Jeri, and Bill D. Within the first 50 posts a number of other Americans including Ebbie and myself had chimed in with something pretty similar.

In my first post on this thread I quoted from and then linked to the CND website which stated that the symbol had gone around the world and the meaning had expanded:

Simpler to draw than the Picasso peace dove, it became known, first in the US and then round the world as the peace symbol. It appeared on the walls of Prague when the Soviet tanks invaded in 1968, on the Berlin Wall, in Sarajevo and Belgrade, on the graves of the victims of military dictators from the Greek Colonels to the Argentinian junta, and most recently in East Timor.

I think if you were to take a survey, intelligence of 'Catters is above any averages. Dumbfucks like myself may draw it down a lot but the it would still be well above the norms. Most American 'Catters would probably agree with the CND statement and your summation as well. On the other hand, I think it also probable that the average American would simply say, "Huh? I thought it was a peace sign thing.....One of those Hippie things from the 60's."

Either way, the folks at Google fell into one of those two categories and thinking they were sending a message of love and peace, used their little Christmas card drawing without any more thought than that! Obviously a mistake on their part.............

What set most Americans off, including me, was MGM's "if" comment. "If" MGM says so then I take his word he meant it so...........But "if" you use a phrase like that it generally implies the attitude that "Americans are ignorant, resource wasting, obnoxious, greedy, motherfuckers." We hear that a lot. Like most generalizations, it is based in truth but it paints a wide stroke.........one of which many are not a part.

Kinda' like "Yankee Doodle."   As Robert Wuhl once said, "We may not have been aware of the insult it was or aware of the Macaroni Club but we knew a good tune when we heard it!"

Happy New Year.....and be sure to try and post to the Worldwide Mudcat New Year thread.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 05:37 AM

I'm really not clear why we are still arguing about this.

If Big Mick's post is representative of the other Americans, most of you interpret this logo as a generic peace symbol and hadn't previously been aware of its origins.

For we Brits, the symbol has always represented a political movement and so far as I can see all of us contributing to this discussion were unaware that it had taken on this wider meaning. I don't think any of us has been offended by its use by Google, simply surprised, but that has now been cleared up.

We are now all better informed. To restate what I said in my earlier post, we should all be aware that it does have more than one meaning, and be prepared to make a mental translation to recognise the alternative/alternate meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 02:54 AM

M TED writes =Michael--The word "if" is not, in itself, demeaning. The phrase that you used is-- ==

But the word 'if' surely qualifies or moderates the offending phrase — i.e. it shows the phrase would only be applicable in certain circumstances: i.e. in this case, persisting in the view that the previous history of the sign, tho previously unknown to its users, may still be safely ignored now that it is known. My point was that, surely now that they knew the facts of the previous history, they would cease to persist in such an ignoral, & so would demonstrate that they were not, in fact, such 'noodles' as to whom the phrase might be applied.

I trust that this will have clarified the matter to your satisfaction, and remain, my Dear Sir,

(with all best wishes for a very Happy New Year)

Your obedient servant
- Michael Grosvenor Myer MA FRSA MJI

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 01:36 AM

Well, just to make the discussion even more complicated, let me throw this bit in: to many of us who served in Vietnam, and were treated as subhuman scum upon our return by people wearing the "peace sign", that symbol represents, and always will represent, unreasoning hatred for people in the military and the equating of soldiers with the wars in which they are involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:40 PM

Michael--The word "if" is not, in itself, demeaning. The phrase that you used is--

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:22 PM

I LOVE Guys & Dolls! I'll watch out for your cousin next time it is playing.

Maybe we could all meet up at the International Peace Garden, some day. (I don't see any "peace" signs on that site!)

Little bit more history then I will stop. It's just interesting to me to find these things:

Women Strike for Peace (USA) A US organization of women, mainly housewives, who, initially defining themselves as apolitical and domestic, campaigned against the nuclear arms race and the Cold War. The organization was founded on 1 November 1961, in the form of a one-day national peace protest led by Dagmar Wilson and others. An estimated 50,000 women stopped their work in the home for a day to demand that President John F. Kennedy 'End the Arms Race—Not the Human Race'. Bella Abzug led the organization into the domain of overt politics in the WSP's campaign against the draft for the Vietnam War.
JAN PALMOWSKI. "Women Strike for Peace." A Dictionary of Contemporary World History. 2004. Encyclopedia.com. 29 Dec. 2009 .

A lot to explore in links at Swarthmore, too. They ask people to write to them to have their organisation added. I think someone should tell them about the CND. I didn't see it listed.

Jeri, that might be it, I forget how long Murray's been back in Scotland. Sorry, Murray!:-)

Happy New Year, MtheGM...glad to see you have a sense of humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:59 PM

I heartily join in the Happy New Year sentiment. My favorite time of year.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:49 PM

Thank you Bill; & the like to you.

No, indeed — as to Goldwyn, include me out. But I revel in relationship to Cousin Louis B, as it makes, by my reckoning, the exquisite Judy Garland - whom I always loved, the only straight Friend·Of·Dorothy in captivity, that's me - my sort-of-Mistress-In-Law. There's glory for you! I have a Cousin Danny Mayer, nephew of Louis B tho I can't work out exact relationship to me, who always used to come over on her annual visits to London, on last of which she died, to dance in her company; so we all knew him. Next time you see Guys&Dolls movie, look out for the crapshooter in the sewer in the big green fedora hat — that's my Cousin Danny...

End of thread-drift. Back to the fucking crap, Kat & Jeri & Ebbie & all... & Love & HNY to all u-guize also!

Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

Thing is, even if I had seen any "peace signs" I would still have interpreted it as being an anti-nuclear logo. How would I have known any different ? Murray McLeod

Can you not turn that around and realize that it is EXACTLY the response we felt? You say that to your knowledge you had never run into the Peace symbol; we are equally adamant that we hadn't run into the CND symbol.

MtheGM says: "...if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.
Macaroni! - Michael-

Do you mean that you don't see that you had made the leap to saying that that was what we were doing. that in fact, we were persisting in protesting that it was just a peace symbol?

I think this is a dead issue, except for those who are reluctant to stow their cudgels.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

I honestly have to admit that the no nuke peace sign always had equal meaning to me. In the states it was mothers who first marched in great numbers and used the peace sign to advocate no nukes.
Anti war groups used the no nuke symbol as the peace sign.
same coin, two sides.

But if all you can muster is the ambition to argue more taste over cries of less filling, well, this phoney bologny controversy over peace signs was made for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:37 PM

Ahh... but at least you weren't related to Sam Goldwyn!

Love & best wishes for the New Year right back at you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 10:01 PM

=== Second, MtheGM's comment:
-I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.
Macaroni! - Michael-
demonstrates, once again, how some folks over there really just love trying to lord it over us "colonials" as to their feelings of some sort of intellectual superiority===

Thus Big Mick, cited few posts later by MTed.

May I please draw attention to small word 'if' — a tiny word, but surely makes all difference to what I said: without it I accept that the post might well have been, what Katlaughing now claims she was solely attacking in her fragrant formulation 'a load of fucking crap'. But I did use it, didn't I!

So, please, my American friends [& I have visited US many times and have much family living there, in Chicago, LA {my initials are not entirely adventitious - Louis B Mayer was my 1st cousin 2ce removed, i.e. my grandfather's 1st cousin, tho the Cal branch spell surname slightly differently}, NY, Va ...; & I have always been made to feel at home & welcome in USA] —— let me just ask you all: which part of if, as they say, do you not understand?

Love - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:10 PM

A year or two ago, the" powers that be" in the fashion world decided it was time to introduce "60's retro" apparel--mostly, but not exclusively, for women, an mostly, but not exclusively, for young women, meaning teenagers.

Now there are any number of ways to evoke the ambience of the 60's, but by far the easiest and and cheapest way is to simply slap a "Peace Sign" on everything--given that in America, nothing has been done unless it is has been done to excess, this (which I actually found today in the Exxon convenience store) is the ultimate marketing exploitation of the "Peace Sign"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:08 PM

memo to self: eliminate the word "actually " from vocabulary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 09:03 PM

This thread has actually brought to the forefront what is rather an interesting subject, namely the different visceral, gut-reaction response which different cultures experience when confronted with different stimuli.

The particular example I have in mind, which is probably of some relevance (or maybe not) to this thread, is the fairly common practice in the US of draping the Stars and Stripes in front of one's house, or flying it from a flagpole in the front lawn.

I found this weird at first, although I bet not one American Mudcatter would find it weird, having been accustomed to it from birth.

After a while, (it took a long while actually) I began to realise that this display of patriotism was actually something quite admirable, and of worth, and had none of the negative connotations which would have been implicit in the flying of the Union Flag in such a manner in a private house in Britain.

However, just try explaining the difference to any Brit who hasn't lived in the States, and you will get all the standard knee jerk responses about gung-ho Yankee imperialism etc etc, they will equate the flying of the Stars and Stripes with the flying of the Union Flag.

What I wonder is, can Americans see why the two situations are different, and if so can they appreciate it on the visceral level as opposed to the intellectual level ?

Like I say, it's all about gut response, and how people transfer their instinctive (or rather culturally induced) reactions to similar although not identical situations, and it takes time to change.

Having grown up with the CND logo, it will always trigger the "no-nukes" reaction in my brain, just as it will for Crow Sister, MtheGM, Howard Jones, and countless others of our generation in the UK.

We can't help it, it's hard wired.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: jeddy
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:38 PM

hey crow sister, have you given up checking your inbox???? LOL

love
j x x x x x x xx

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:25 PM

^ in addition to being pro-peace, naturally

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:23 PM

I would like nothing better than to move back for a refresher course, believe me. Anything to get out of this snow and ice ...

Actually, thinking about it, there was one guy who used to play our open mike in Homestead, who either had the sign on his guitar or on the case, I can't remember which.

At no point however did he ever jab his finger in my chest and say "hey limey, I know what you are thinking, like this is an anti-nuclear logo, but let me tell you , this ain't no anti-nuclear logo, this is a totally universal peace sign".

Nope, I just went on thinking he was anti-nuclear (which of course he probably was) .

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:16 PM

Kat, I don't think the peace sign symbol has been consistently present through the years. It seemed to be all over the place in the 60's, then mostly disappeared for a long time. When I started seeing it again (this century?), it had a retro-hippie feel to it. I think Murray might have missed the periods when it was plastered all over in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:10 PM

Tsk, tsk, Murray...did ya ever go into a Hallmark card store or anywhere with greeting cards? And, usually there is some indication, i.e. text along with it which says "Peace." **bg** Maybe you need to move back for a refresher course.:-)

luvyakat

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 08:05 PM

Kat, I swear I have no recollection of coming across any "peace signs" in Florida.

Mind you, I was surrounded almost totally by Cubans on the one hand and rednecks on the other, so maybe that explains it.

Thing is, even if I had seen any "peace signs" I would still have interpreted it as being an anti-nuclear logo. How would I have known any different ?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM

Donuel, those last two posts by you are outstanding; some of your best ever.

Murray, the "fucking crap" was specifically about what MtheGM used to refer to Americans and I am sure you know that. No peace signs in Florida? That surprises me, really, not trying to take the piss outta ya, just surprised you never ran into it whilst living here. (Or, have I got my wires crossed?)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:23 PM

Mick, my friend, I am afraid that you are totally and completely mistaken when you say

"First, any soul, on any continent, that was alive and old enough to care about the news during the Vietnam/birth of the Hippies/Age of Aquarius, knows damn full well that the it became the universal "peace" sign. Any attempt, IMO, to act otherwise is disengenuous

I, personally, me, myself, was totally unaware that the CND logo had metamorphed into the universal Peace logo, and I do and did try to keep abreast of the news. It may seem incredible to you that there are people unaware of the more universal current symbolism, but that is in fact the case.

After this thread, however, that is probably no longer the case !

Thank you Ted, for acknowledging that the OP was an honest enquiry.

When I looked at the Google logo on Xmas Day, I thought "Whaaaat ?? Shit, that's a bit controversial", hence my starting this thread.

I now realise that, as I said on an earlier post, it was just a case of two nations separated by a common symbol, and that the matter has now been cleared up.

I did however and still do take grave exception to the thread being described as a "load of crap" and "this shit".

My opening post, from my perspective, and from the perspective of many UK members of a certain vintage , was a perfectly valid observation.

One wishes that clarification could have been achieved with less rancour, or indeed rancor, but there you go ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM

Why are you here?

It has to be the same reason why most people are here. For the luckiest people they are here because of the friends they care about and the sense of a community that honestly cares about them.

For the less fortunate they are here for the virtual sense of community and the belief that people may care about them.

It's not just about the trivia or the music. It's about your wife dieing or a child that gets hurt or a husband that is murdered by an unknown assailant or your home reduced to cinders. It's about real life and death in your family as well as the world at large.

This community, be it real or virtual to you, becomes something more over time and can disappoint to a degree that is disproportionate to the actual facts because the community you emotionally rely on, might sometimes spurn or condemn you.

Sometimes you can feel how stupid "they" are or be confounded by the degree of sophistication, intelligence and knowledge of a certain subject.

Being so invested in the support of a caring community that wanes and ebbs like the tide is not without its costs, but overall it is beneficial.

It's like the end of Annie Hall when Woody explains that his brother goes to a psychiatrist because he believes he has an imaginary chicken. The Dr. asks why the whole family indulges in pretending there is this imaginary chicken, and Woody says "because we need the eggs".


For myself I know this to be true. I can go 5 years without a PM which is less than half the time I have been posting. I know my spontaneous dyslexic writing looks to be a shambles, while the ideas are sound the intent is often ignored or critizied at best.
But I know I need the eggs so I try to do better orjust storm off for awhile.

So whether you have egg on your face or you are told to go suck an egg, we all need the eggs.

Happy New Year Joe,
Don H

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:59 PM

I don't think that Murray intended for his honest inquiry to turn into an internet international slugfest, and his question had a simple and clear answer, save the fact that Michael, for reasons of his own, chose to take the gratuitous stab that Mick has cited above.

The fact is, many years ago, I had one of those Nuclear Disarmament buttons snugly and smugly pinned to my coat, ready and willing to go into a "Ban the Bomb" diatribe for whosoever made the mistake of asking about it--but these days, you can buy t-shirts and necklaces with the "Peace Sign" on them at Target, and it is all nostalgia, rather than any sort of political or even "Peace" statement. And the UK has more like 60,000,000 people-as
the poet said, "That was then, this is now."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:28 PM

Ebbie affectionatly says "we know our Spaw".
Like knowing Shakespeare, one must know their Spaw.
Sometimes I wake up at 3 Am is if a noise had startled me, only to find that I am left wondering what Emmanual Kant would think of Spaw.
I really Kant say for sure, but I respect and read them both. I have even seen their photos.

Spaw has a central persona or at least seems to project one voice.
In contrast I have been the cartoonist, the therapist, the alarmist (but a correct one), the satirist, joker, political hack and several other personae that only serves to create a confused identity which may be telling in itself. Besides the closest I got to a getaway was to start out and turn around.

Ebbie has it right. Know thy Spaw as yourself. no thats not it... OH "We know our Spaw".
You know, thats a damn nice thing to say. The measure of a man is in his friends, as Charles Dickens said.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:21 PM

I tried, folks, I really did try, to wade through this shit. Got far enough that I knew I wasn't going to invest anymore time. A couple of observations.

First, any soul, on any continent, that was alive and old enough to care about the news during the Vietnam/birth of the Hippies/Age of Aquarius, knows damn full well that the it became the universal "peace" sign. Any attempt, IMO, to act otherwise is disengenuous. I do appreciate learning about the CND connection. I was not aware of it, and it lends an explanation as to where it came from.

Second, MtheGM's comment:

I can only say that, if you over there persist in regarding this as just a symbol without known origin or meaning or arrière-pensée intent, then you wilfully reveal yourselves as nothing but a bunch of innocent Yankee·Doodle noodles after all.

Macaroni! - Michael

demonstrates, once again, how some folks over there really just love trying to lord it over us "colonials" as to their feelings of some sort of intellectual superiority. I wonder where they were during the discussion of the Rebel flag and how it evokes abhorence with regard to racism. Mike seems to think that our not getting what the peace sign meant to folks in Europe shows we are just Yankee Doodle noodles. Could I say the same for the English that think the "stars and bars" are nothing more than a symbol for hooligans?

As has been said before, only on Mudcat would we argue about this type of thing.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:14 PM

The point I was making was kinda there was no fight before folks decided there was a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:55 PM

Absolutely nothing will stop those who want to be pissed off from being pissed off.

I'll talk to people up until I can see that it's clearly a waste of my time, because they don't want to find understanding and common ground, but find enemies.

As they say elsewhere on the internet, *PLONK*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:41 PM

"The truly sad and pathetic thing here is that such a mild irrelevancy should have torn our gentle community on the one day of the year set aside to celebrate peace and hope."


Oh Poo Hoo to you! I thought the whole frecking point of this thread was that the CND sign was initially a dynamic controversial political image. But! "Peace" adopted it, how... nice of Peace. So the CND sign err became "fun" and people thought it'd be way cool to put it on T. Shirts and stuff.. and errr...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:29 PM

The Google illustration is simply that of an innocent stack of greeting cards--the peace sign having now become a not infrequent feature thereon--evidence of which is submitted for your consideration here: A Variety of "Peace" related Christmas Cards

The truly sad and pathetic thing here is that such a mild irrelevancy should have torn our gentle community on the one day of the year set aside to celebrate peace and hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:18 PM

Perhaps I should clarify my remark about "long term Mudcatter" and "our" Spaw. I, of course, was speaking to MtheGM, who as a newbie to the BS section could not be presumed familiar with "our" long term Mudcat members.

As has often - VERY often - been stated, there is no cliquey segment on the cat, or if there is, I certainly don't know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:23 PM

Ebbie - it didn't matter which side of the CND fight we were on - as I stated above, my position as to the matter changed — it was the fact of recognising it as, if not exactly a fight, then as a POLITICAL issue in which views were polarised, that is the point at issue. That symbol represented a particular, recognisable, entrenched political position. It was not the fact of having not realised that, but the attitude of maintaining that this was just being picky and how could 'most people' {Jeri} be expected to know?; and that it was just a 'load of fucking crap' {the fragrant katlaughing} that got up the noses of Murray and Howard & me - if not the entire 50,000,000 population of these islands as I once [perhaps just an itsy-bitsy· itty-bitty·teensy-weensy bit hyperbolically] claimed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 12:07 PM

"shirty about someone you don't know."

Shirty about whom Kat? I was responding to Ebbie's post there.
I'm not into 'taking sides' here.

As far as I'm concerned 'Spaw can rip the piss outa whomever he pleases, and so can Michael too! They're both big boys now - they can work it out between themselves. Pistolas at dawn even, if they want ;-)

I just don't dig the whole clique preferential treatment thing Ebbie was aiming at because "Our Spaw" is "complicated" so that makes swearing at me fine by all the "long-term Mudcatter's" (who are clearly by implication, the only people who's feelings really matter).
'
Don't get me wrong - I'm not bitching at 'Spaw AT ALL, he's cool by me, as is Michael too. But we're ALL complicated Kat, we all have a story - and that story can't always be found on a magic thread search. So, sometimes folks get pissed off and rant at each other, no big deal, shit happens.

But do I really hate that cliquey stuff where folks rally round and 'support' someone else just because they're in the Scooby Gang - because frankly I'm quite sure Spaw can and does bat for himself perfectly well without it.

But then I'm an inveterate outsider, never belonged to any long-term group - always wandered off before I belonged anywhere.
Mudcat will inevitably be the same...

Hey, so psych me ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM

Well, since I am still here, still housesitting due to dense fog that prevents planes from getting into town, I'll try once more.

Crow Sister- I've always liked ravens better, by the by - if you'd like to pick a fight I am not available, but I will elucidate some of my "psychobabble". By 'lack of fear' I was referring to the fact that the man has been so close to death so many times there's not a whole lot that anyone can do to scare him At least, that is how I read him.

Some day I will have to go back - on my own computer, rather than on this unfamiliar laptop- and see where it all went wrong, From memory I'd say that USAians were genuinely surprised at the vehemence of some posters as to the misuse of the CND symbol. I personally was so far from understanding that I wasn't sure on which side of the CND fight they were on.

For that matter, I'm still not quite sure. Are you/Were you all on the same side?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM

Crow Sister, you would do well to read some old threads before you get so shirty about someone you don't know.

If anyone wants to see a little guy actually doing the semi-fore CLICK HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:53 AM

"Spaw may reveal his complexity a bit more readily than we - or you choose to or are comfortable with. I suspect that a lot of it is attributable to his lack of fear."

WTF! What a lotta pseudo-psych tosh, I'm laffing myself silly!
"lack of fear"? Fear of what?
Someone typing back "fuck off you nob-end" or some other really scary written stuff on an internet forum? LOL! "Lack of fear" Oh my..

"Incidentally, I think you'll find that none of the long time Mudcatters are going to side with you in your opinion or your attack. We know our Spaw."

That kinda cliquery sucks the big high hard one.

Anyway - have fun folks!
No side-taking here, Peace 'n' shit ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 06:36 AM

The only thing that genuinely annoyed me about this thread, was the immediate barrage of "What a lot of shit" "Fucking crap" or whatever, to the notion of the possibility of said logo having any political connotations.

That kind of group heckling stifles open discussions (maybe deliberately?), and I think in this instance it irked some people who knew more intimately the history and meaning of the sign - a history which has very definitely been filled with political controversy up until relatively recently.

If folks want to squabble and name-call on a *One to One* basis however, that's a different matter! I don't personally give a flying one, and would never wish to spoil the fun or get prissy and tut-tutty about it! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:38 AM

Oh, sorry - nearly forgot -

LoL !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 05:37 AM

To correct a previous error, as my watchword is ever "ACCURACY MATTERS".

I had misremembered about semaphore, which has not after all changed since I learned it at age 12, 65 years ago. The symbol reads simply, in semaphore, ND, for 'Nuclear Disarmament' - the fact of its representing a 'Campaign' for this being presumably implied, or taken as read, by the originators. Both Peter Cadogan and George Parker are dead so I can no longer ask them.

I am indebted to Jeri for the Wiki link which reminded me of this.

Did after all cast an eye over Spaw's last - hard to avoid one's eye flickering. He is welcome to such petty pathetic enjoyment as he may have found 'under my skin' - little things, as they do say, please little minds. A proverbial saying here. Do you have it over there also, USAians? One never knows nowdays.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 11:49 PM

Yeah ya' are Bill........and we're all thankful for it!

I seem to have done a fine job of getting under MGM's skin.....or on it ......or something.........LOL......

Howard phrased it correctly. Almost everyone gladly admitted that the CND symbol is viewed today in the UK far differently than it is here in the States. Has it become watered down and diluted? Yes it has and it simply signifies "Peace" to most of the world, not just the USA.......Read the CND site.   Google may have erred in not knowing the "Peace Sign" meant something different and more political in the UK but I seriously doubt they meant any offense. It once had some very strong political overtones here as well but over time it has become just a friendly and International way of hoping for peace.

As for me......why of course I'm a bit of the bully and a bit of the egotist and often arrogant as well......but I try not to let it bother me..........LOL..........Hell, we have a ton of members who are pretty much the same.............If it bothers you, well, then .......................well, I guess it bothers you. Maybe we can get you a little drum!

Going back to the first sentence I wrote on this thread............Only at the 'Cat would we have a fight over a Peace sign.....or whatever ta' hell it is................LOL..........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 11:04 PM

If I had better typing skills and 2 or 3 days, I'd try to mediate this jousting match between Michael & Ebbie and Catspaw and katlaughing..and Jeri....(having met all EXCEPT Michael & katlaughing in person)... but since I don't have time or typing skills, I'll just say that everything I know tells me that they are ALL excellent, concerned, intelligent folk who happen to be different and have different ways of expressing things.

In my just over 13 years here, this is one of the stranger bits of back & forth I have read. ....and I probably shouldn't even say this much, but hey... I'm strange also!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 09:46 PM

Incidentally, I think you'll find that none of the long time Mudcatters are going to side with you in your opinion or your attack. We know our Spaw.===

Not so, Ebbie — have had some PM response in my support. I am not the only one he appears to irritate with his 'Teehee·I·am·such·a·character!' get-out from the norms of acceptable civilised social intercourse. So carry on 'knowing' him, & for my part you are welcome to him & can keep him.


Spaw: address no more remarks to me, please, young man, as I give notice I shan't even take trouble to read them — & not becoz my head is in an unmentionable situation either, smartarse...

Kat & Jeri — who is the "he" ref'd to in your last exchange; not clear if you mean Spaw or me? Not that I am particularly bothered by opinions of either of you, who appear, unlike Ebbie, to wish to conduct this converstn in abusive, rather than rational terms.

I am getting v bored with this thread [tho Howard's contribtns have of course given fresh ❤ to the over·here·&·know·what's·what contingent]. Might not even bother to log on to it again. However, this is not one of those I'm·outa·here statements that some people are always making & never keeping to.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:53 PM

Yeah, I think so too, Jeri...almost as if he's been here before.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

The Wikipedia link Jeri posted explains how the symbol came to be adopted in the US. That doesn't negate the fact that in the UK, for older generations at least, the sign has other, overtly political, connotations.

Whilst I am sure that CND believed they were campaigning for peace, there was an alternative view that their demand for unilateral nuclear disarmament could have opened the way to a non-nuclear war. I don't want to get into a debate over the rights and wrongs of either argument, simply to explain that "peace" and "CND" are not necessarily synonymous.

If you're going to use it as a peace symbol, which I am sure is how Google intended it, you also need be aware that it does have other meanings. It is not unambiguous.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:35 PM

To me the sixties movement was the civil rights movement which inspired the sexual equality or femenist movement. The assasination of all the greatest leftist leaders was the unsaid motivation to stand up and make an individaul difference. The anti war movement got the remaining people who were not marching up on their feet.

The icing on this Nexus of events cake, was the drug "movement".
Any real hippie knows the phrase "tune in , turn on and drop out".
Some did one, others did two but I did all three. I no longer turn on but support the freedom of others who do. Still I wouldn't want a dime going to some murderous cartel.

If anyone wants to have a pissing contest, I suppose we could decide who is the best hippie. I could tell you that those who are hippies, have harmed LESS/FEWER lands, waters, people and animals than those who are not hippies.

The biggest lie about hippies is that they are slakers. I have known high power attoneys who are hippies. The financiers who destroyed the world for the next several generations are those who are definately not hippies.

Yeah the sixties and early seventies had hundreds of people's front organizations. Some of them were bizarre, some religiously bizarre but I suppose human nature has always been a messey affair.

Today it is said we should fear that we are so much alike than different. My artificial yet true seperation of human race into two groups is the linear and non linear. (the literalists vs the metaphorists) seldom will the twain ever meet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 05:23 PM

I'd like to add, Michael, in response to your anguished query as to how this 60 year old man could have slipped so badly from what he was capable of writing 10 years ago: He hasn't changed

Human beings are complex. Spaw may reveal his complexity a bit more readily than we - or you choose to or are comfortable with. I suspect that a lot of it is attributable to his lack of fear.

Incidentally, I think you'll find that none of the long time Mudcatters are going to side with you in your opinion or your attack. We know our Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:48 PM

I think he's trying too hard to piss people off, kat. Something wrong with that...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Google getting political ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 04:42 PM

Ah, nothing like a smarmy, smug-type to give them all a bad name. UKers mind how he goes. We might paint you all with the same broad brush he applies to us!**BSEG**