BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 07:44 PM

Geeez guys ... why so glum

we can still stop off at an Irving Big Stop for a good breakfast ... er I mean Blue Canoe .... aw shit, now it's K something or whatever ... oh yeah .... Irving sold it all off to some ... er Quebec company.

now I'm getting really depressed ....

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:26 PM

Ed... heheheheehee.

Of course, if you look at the fact that KC Irving was once one of the most wealthiest men on earth... I wonder why Atlanitc Canada is being sold down the river?

Anyway... I got fuck all to do with it. The lads can have all the money they want at OUR expense and spend it on bullets in Afghanistan. It's same old same old. The rich get richer and subjugate the poor. Such is the dictatorship.

Sigh... gnightgnu.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:17 PM

If you took Irvings and McCains our of NB (and PEI) , and Sobeys, EMERA, Jodreys (Minas Basin Pulp and Power) , the Federal government, and a few other minor economic players out of NSwhat would you have left? Answer, a TimBit economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:09 PM

gnu .. As far as I'm concerned Atlantic Canada can seperate ..... probably do better especially if Atlantica/AINER (the International Northeast Economic Region) is in place.

as far as NB Power .... I'm sure Irving will come up with something of their own to serve power to Atlantic Canada and even NE. The old NB Power was bleeding us dry ..... hell, I'm sure the brown haze drifting off the coastline was the result of the coninuous burning $1000 dollar bills at Colson Cove and Point Lepreau.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 06:05 PM

What once bound most of Canada was a weak one-way alliance with the USA.
This is no more, in English Canada, and never was in Quebec. Ontario was once the Canadian Dream....but, in todays world, is lucky to hold it's own. Alberta seems to feel more kinship south...and tends to lead the Praries lately. BC is a Pacific and increasingly looks east and south ...in population and otherwise.

Eastcoast cultural and true economic links are south....not west...and I suspect we will see this evolve greater...as the rest of Canada seeks it's own destiny.
However, while an east coast Canadian has similar historic links (and yes even genetic links) with New England....it ends there....there has been much water past to change us into different folks, with different perspectives on life, society, culture, and economics. But, I suspect closer ties will evolve in my lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:49 PM

Indeed, the trade routes here are N-S as well as the cultural ties. The arrogance of politicians who seek to divide and weaken Atlantic Canada becomes more apparent each day. Uppity Canada will still do business with Atlantic Canada, even if AC decides it is best to stop the sale of NB Power and hold a referendum on separation. Hey, if La Belle Province can do it, so can AC... and sell ALL the potash, oil shale, salt, paper, natgas, tungsten... etc... and power to our BUDDIES in New England.

As far as joining with the US. No need. We just need to stop getting screwed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

The economic models of the two countries are similar. In my opinion, it is the politics that stifles Atlantic Canada. Quebec treats those provinces as economic colonies.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 05:09 PM

Jack the Sailor
Very true, one man's freedom fighting villain is another man's hero....and it's mostly defined by who won. In history, it is logical tha an idntifiable group does what they can to promote their common cause.

As an Atlantic Canadian, I see a way out of long-standing economic stagnation is closer ties, economic, cultural and even political is to the south. The problem is, the Canadian approach to a more caring society, (free-market social models seem scary to us) tends to link our aspeations more westward, rather than southward. But, that may change....as Canadian society could move more left....and by challenges that may be put forward by our Quebec neighbour. And, the way economic trends are moving, the USA economic model may turn out to be not as desirable in the near future?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

The world calls it the US Civil War. A perfectly accurate and adequate name.

Calling it "The War of Northern Aggression" is an attempt to start an argument about the causes of the war. Which begs the question to the apparently still aggrieved Southerner, "Don't you have anything better to do than pick a 145 year old scab?"

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:50 PM

You're right about the frequent lack of realism in political arguments, Jack. Politics is generally driven by emotions, not reason. Most people defend what their emotions tell them is "right", and reason be damned...but they will concoct various forms of logic to serve their emotional bent, whatever it may be.

To a Southerner who believes that the Southern states had a right to secede from the Union (and that's a perfectly debatable proposition), the War Between the States was a war of Northern aggression...because it was an attempt on the part of the North to restore the Union by force. That involved invading and occupying the South. That involves being an aggressor, as you are the one doing the invading and occupying of someone else's home.

Therefore from a Southern point of view, it was a war of Northern aggression. It would not have occurred had not the North done 2 things:

1. attempted to maintain Union garrisons like Fort Sumter within Southern states' harbours, and...

2. invaded and occupied the South in order to restore the Union.

(The matter of slavery came into it considerably later. Lincoln made no legal move to free the slaves until about halfway through the war...when he saw that it would be politically advantageous to do so for various reasons. The North fought that war because it regarded secession as illegal, not because of the slavery issue. The South regarded secession as legal...because it was their decision! Everyone always thinks his own political decision is legal.)

Over such disagreements as what is legal and what is not and who has the right to do what, wars are fought.

There's always a powerful element of irrationality in such disputes, in my opinion. People's judgement is clouded by culture, resentment, old grudges, and self-interest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM

Quebec has a quarter of Canada's population and only votes its self interest. Atlantic Canada will always be hostage to their whims. My advice? Secede and join the USA. Its the little states that have the most power here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:36 PM

JtS.... have you been following the sale of NB Power to Quebec and what that would actually mean to Newfoundland after some 60 years of being screwed over Churchill Falls Hydroelectric transmission? I cannot believe our Premier would screw ALL of ATlantic Canada, especially NB and NF the way he is. Big money on the go? Most in Atlantic Canada are not ******* ***** campers!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 03:07 PM

20 years ago I had a friend from Quebec. He was a Quebec Nationalist. I was a Newfoundland nationalist.

We discussed "distinct" cultures. I had mentioned that I had heard that the Quebec schools had taught that Labrador was part of Quebec.

"That is so." He said. "The whole dog face is Quebec."

"But that was settled by the privy council in 1927." I said. "I know." He said. "We do not recognize their authority."
I said. "But what about the Canadian government?"
"We do not recognize their authority."
His resolve did not crack until I said, "But every authority in the world recognizes that Labrador and Newfoundland are the same political entity. Look at any Atlas or map not printed by the government of Quebec." He then conceded that Newfoundland's claim on Labrador was probably stronger than Quebec.

It seems to me that there could be an ingrained, cultural, lack of rationality driving the Quebec "Sovereignty" movement. I have seen a similar lack of realism in discussions with certain southerners about the "War of Northern Aggression."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: bankley
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:24 PM

Ironically Jacques Lanctot started a book publishing company after his 3 year prison term.... and rec'd grants from the Canada Council..

damn, I must be doing something wrong... but it reminds me of a song I wrote after my 3rd rejection by that institution...

(Now That the Buffalo are Back)

"A Franco-Aboriginal porno queen doing time in a federal pen
Writes a book, gets a Council grant and an early release again"....

but I did have fun with lawyer Robert Lemieux way back after the dust settled on les evenements d'Octobre.. he introduced Ville Emard Blues Band on our live LP at the St-Denis Theatre... he went on for 20 minutes, but we edited him down to about one or so !

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 06:14 PM

I agree with your very low opinion of the FLQ.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:22 PM

'"From 1963 to 1970 the Quebec nationalist group Front de libération du Québec had detonated over 95 bombs.[6] While mailboxes– particularly in the affluent and predominantly Anglophone city of Westmount– were common targets, the largest single bombing was of the Montreal Stock Exchange on February 13, 1969, which caused extensive damage and injured 27 people. Other targets included Montreal City Hall, Royal Canadian Mounted Police recruitment offices, railroad tracks, and army installations. FLQ members, in a strategic move, had stolen several tons of dynamite from military and industrial sites, and, financed by bank robberies, they threatened the public through their official communication organ, known as La Cognée, that more attacks were to come.

By 1970, 23 members of the FLQ were in prison, including four members convicted of murder. On February 26, 1970, two men in a panel truck– including Jacques Lanctôt– were arrested in Montreal when they were discovered with a sawed-off shotgun and a communique announcing the kidnapping of the Israeli consul. In June, police raided a home in the small community of Prévost, north of Montreal in the Laurentian mountains, and found firearms, ammunition, 300 pounds (140 kg) of dynamite, detonators, and the draft of a ransom note to be used in the kidnapping of the American consul.[7]'



Let's not glorify these motherfuckers. I saved my sympathy for the people of Montreal. I was one of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM

Oh, to have our PET back today. A man with real balls. He could paddle a canoe... and not up shit creek.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 02:13 PM

At the time of the declaration of the War Measures Act, I was a first year student at University of Prince Edward Island (UPEI).   We stayed up all night for a few days, because there was 24 hour news coverage of events.

The UPEI newspaper (Cadre) printed an old version of the FLQ manifesto, during the crisis. It was illegal to print the newest FLQ version, but most copies of the newspaper were seized by police under the act anyway. An irriteted columnist from the UPEI publication rescued a few copies, before they were seized. He passed them out at an Acadien dance. He was detained by police, and later released, when it was learned the Manifesto was an old version.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM

Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act at the request of the Premier of Quebec, and the Mayor of Montreal.   Simultaneously, the Solicitor-General of Quebec requisitioned the deployment of the military from the Chief of the Defence Staff in accordance with the National Defence Act. Troops from Quebec bases and elsewhere in the country were dispatched, under the direction of Quebec's provincial police force to guard vulnerable points and prominent individuals at risk. This freed the police to deal with the crisis.

Outside Quebec, mainly in the Ottawa area, the federal government deployed troops under its own authority to guard federal offices and employees. The combination of the increased powers of arrest granted by the War Measures Act and the military deployment requisitioned and controlled by the government of Quebec, gave appearance that martial law had been imposed. But, the military remained in a support role to the civil authorities and never had a judicial role.

Once the War Measures Act was in place, arrangements were made for all detainees to see legal counsel. In addition, the Quebec Ombudsman, Louis Marceau, was instructed to hear complaints of detainees and the Quebec government agreed to pay damages to any person unjustly arrested. On 3 Feb 1971, Minister of Justice John Turner reported that 497 persons had been arrested under the War Measures Act, of whom 435 had already been released. The other 62 were charged, of which 32 were crimes of such seriousness that a Quebec Superior Court judge refused them bail.

The October Crisis was the most serious terrorist attack to occur on Canadian soil in the 20th Century.

At the time, opinion polls in Quebec and the rest of Canada showed overwhelming support for this move. Politician and future Parti Québécois Premier René Levesque wrote that he agreed it was necessary under the circumstances.

Source:
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/history/domesticmissions/flqcrisis.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 01:27 PM

It is difficult to second guess. Had he not done what he done would the terrorism had continued? Or did the over reaction ad fuel to the separatist fire?

Getting back to those 14 points. If you apply the discussion of the FLQ situation, I think it is easy to see that the US has not approached that point since Lincoln's time. It is also good to keep in mind that as militaristic as the US sometimes appears to be, that the military swears an oath to uphold the constitution; including the balance of power and term limits. The US system is not perfect, but it is not subject to fascism or dictatorship.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:28 AM

That's true. I can't say for sure if Trudeau was right or not to go as far as he did, but I do feel sorry for a lot of innocent Francophones who were given a hard time because of mere "guilt by association".

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:32 AM

One thing that can be said about Trudeau's "overreaction" is that it pretty much doused the flames of the FLQ, many of who's members were weekend warrior types who were scared shitless by how far things had gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:15 AM

An interesting question is, given legislative changes since the Trudeau example given... changes made to address a terrorist threat... is it less complex today to suspend Canadian freedoms (for example, hold and interrogate people, limit free speech, military folks doing police work, suspend powers of parliament) in Canada, than in Trudeau's day? Or, is it more complex to do so? And, could it be done for a longer or only a short period? I cannot answer this question. Anyone care to give it a shot?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:49 AM

The question still remains unanswered as to "who burned the Reichstag? Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch drifter, perhaps not mentally stable, was tried, found guilty, and beheaded. Hitler blamed it on a communist plot, but many historians believe that it was a set up by his henchman as part of the plot to seize supreme power. In any case it gave him a very convenient excuse.
Trudeau was arrogant as hell but he was as democratic as most recent PM's and perhaps more so than most!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:34 PM

If Trudeau had never lifted the state of emergency, then you would have had a fascist takeover. (I do think that he overdid it, by the way...)

Hitler declared a state of emergency after the burning of the Reichstag and he never did lift it.

The proof is in the pudding. As they act, when given the opportunity, so shall you know what they are. Trudeau was a determined and opinionated man, but he was no fascist.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:31 PM

And I should also add concerning the Octobre Crisis ..... the murderers of Pierre LaPorte (Quebec Justice Minister) were eventually arrested, sentence to life imprisonment but all were eventually paroled within 9 years.

The kidnappers of James Cross the British Trade commsioner negotiated his release and were allowed a tax paid free flight to Cuba ... all returned to Canada after a bout 5 years .... served no more than 2 years in prison.

All perpetrators of this crisis are now living as free citizens in Canada.

If Canada was a fascist dictatorship ... they all would have been executed without trial (along with many completely innocent people thrown in to the firing squad)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:08 PM

I should add the War Measures Act during the Octobre Crisis pertained to all of Canada, not just Quebec. This act is something not to be taken lightly as it is was a threat to the civil liberties of all Canadians. The war Measures act removed all rights such as habeas corpus from all Canadians.

A quote of Tommy Douglas (who was leader of the NDP party at that time) regarding the War Measures Act ... "The government, I submit, is using a sledgehammer to crack a peanut."


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:59 PM

I returned to my hometown because I thought I'd be called up.

One thing: the arrests were done by the police. Yes, soldiers were in the streets and they were carrying FN-C1s and FN-C2s. In a dictatorship, they never would have left. When the 'crisis' was finished, they were RTB and that was that. I do not envy Trudeau the decision he made. As number 6 said, "this period in time in Canada's history was something not be proud of from which ever way you look at it."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:53 PM

The War Measures Act (marshal law) .... Octobre Cisis 1970 .... my 'then brother-law, French canadian' was taken in for questioning ... all because of certain politikal affiliations .... It was basically a mass roundup of many such dissenters .... not just an act of keeping the peace .... this period in time in Canada's history was something not be proud of from which ever way you look at it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:27 PM

>>For "entirely", you would simply need the declaration of a state of national emergency, government by decree, and troops and soldiers in the streets across America to enforce it.<<

Trudeau did exactly that across Quebec in the 70's. It didn't make Canada Fascist.

If the troops are keeping the peace its OK. Its when they start arresting dissenters that it becomes fascism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:22 PM

"as fascist as you say" doesn't mean entirely either.

Does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:03 PM

Ah, if only we could always express ourselves absolutely perfectly to everyone's perfect understanding whenever we type!

Look, Jack, you can interpret my past typings as you wish, but you must realize that if I say now in this post and in my last post in plain English that I do NOT think the USA is presently a fascist authoritarian state, I mean it. I think there are many strong and bloody obvious tendencies in American society that could lead eventually towards establishing such a fascist state, however...and that is why I was alluding to the "Fourteen Points" as I was. They are far more typical of the USA than they are of Canada or of many other western democracies.

Most of what is in those Fourteen Points sounds quite a bit like the USA to me. Not all of it...but most of it. It's not a fascist authoritarian state yet because not ALL of it has been done yet, so, yes, you can still say anything you want in the USA, but it does look a lot like the incubation chamber for such a fascist state to me. That's why I said the USA sounds like the Fourteen Points in "almost every respect".

The word "almost" still means "almost". It doesn't mean "completely". It doesn't mean "entirely". It means "not entirely". Understood?

For "entirely", you would simply need the declaration of a state of national emergency, government by decree, and troops and soldiers in the streets across America to enforce it.

That could happen in just one day if a serious enough crisis occured or was "engineered". Say a nuclear incident, for example. Or a major biological "attack", etc...

It hasn't happened yet. It may never happen. Let's hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:29 PM

>>> pretend that that extreme postion is what the other person is saying, and discredit what he's saying on that basis. Erect a straw man, in other words.<<<

Pretend???

>>> Ed, your "Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism" sound like a capsule description of the USA in the present era, in almost every respect.<<<

You really ought to dial down the Bull Shipping, or at least pay attention to what YOU YOURSELF has said.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:00 PM

The USA isn't YET a fully accomplished state of fascism, Jack, it's far from it, and I haven't said that it is. I have said that it is constantly in danger of moving closer toward a fascist state, because most of the underlying tendencies that bring about a fascist system are very strong already in the USA.

Study again the "Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism" in the earlier post, and you will see what I mean.

It's a standard unscupulous debating technique to stretch the other person's argument to the farthest extreme possible, pretend that that extreme postion is what the other person is saying, and discredit what he's saying on that basis. Erect a straw man, in other words.

That is what you and Don T. appear to be doing in regards to my argument, because...

I have NOT said that Harper is a dictator. He isn't. He's a neo-conservative operating in a democratic system.

Nor have I said that the USA is presently a fully-fledged fascist authoritarian state. It isn't.

I have simply said that the USA is in considerable danger of moving toward becoming a fascist system and already exhibits a great many symptoms of a system moving in such a direction. If you study the "Fourteen Points" alluded to above dispassionately, you will see that I am correct in that respect.

You can still say what you want because it isn't there YET. And it may never be.

I can still say what I want because Harper isn't a dictator yet either. And probably never will be.

Hopefully, things will go on that way, and we will continue being able to say what we want.

Now, take Red China, our beloved ally and trading partner...that IS an authoritarian state, and you bloody well CAN'T say what you want there if it's something the government doesn't like. They'll arrest you and imprison you, and maybe shoot you. Be glad that you and I were not born and are not living in China, because our freedom to say what we want without consequences would be over.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:35 PM

" he made you believe that he believed in what he was saying "

That's because he spoke the truth! Tommy Douglas was revered more in later years than as NDP leader, and that's because Canada was still influenced by the "reds under the bed" crap coming out of the USA. Anyone close to being to the left had to overcome this handicap. He was a great man and it is truly a shame, but he did well by us with what influence he could muster! Honoured as The Greatest Canadian Of All Time in our hearts and minds today, and rightly so!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 06:10 PM

On googling Canada Bull Ship I got 1,960,000 results, which shows I was right about Little Hawk......One of the biggest Bullshippers in the business.

At least that's what it sounded like.

Roflmao
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: 3refs
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:37 PM

Tommy Douglas(Kiefer Sutherland's Grandfather)has, or had, very few equals. He was a man of great passion. He had one of the greatest gifts a politician can have, he made you believe that he believed in what he was saying. I suspect that being a Baptist Minister had something to do with that. I also think that his Mouseland speech had great reverberations throughout the country, as simple as it was!

http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/parties_leaders/topics/851-4958/

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 05:05 PM

If Harper was a dictator y'all would have to shut up about it.
Likewise if the US was as Fascist as you say, I would have to shut up.
Why don't you tone down the hyperbole and talk about your existing problems?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 04:40 PM

There is an authoritarian reaction on the part of governments worldwide now.
There's a "terrorist" under every bed.

Cops pre-empt demonstrators, countries pre-empt bomb strikes, and Canada is
just part of the world picture.

Who can point the finger?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 02:33 PM

I also do not suggest that this, (or past Canadian Prime Ministers were or) is a facist, nor a Dictator.

But, retaining a meaningful demoracy is delacate. It pays to be mindful of the dangers for the future of demoracy under future leaders and under possible changes...one should pay close attention to the system and people who govern.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:58 PM

Ed, your "Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism" sound like a capsule description of the USA in the present era, in almost every respect. This is something I've been keenly aware of ever since I lived in the USA back in the 1960s. It's exactly what troubles me about American politics, and it's why I oppose their aggressive foreign policy.

As for Harper, he is an open admirer of the neo-conservative (neo-fascist) movement that came forth in the USA from the time of the Reagan administration on, and it is clearly his wish to implement something quite similar in Canada if he possibly can...but he faces greater resistance here since the Canadian public is less inclined to support moves in that direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:41 PM

Well, I started the thread so I'll attempt to explain:
This was not because of any number of times that parliament was prorogued because that is just a red herring that Harper is throwing out. The more specific question that must be examined deeper for an answer was why was this parliament session prorogued?
In a democracy the people elect representatives to speak for them, not to be a rubber stamp for a political party. The Prime Minister only holds office in Canada by virtue of the number of these representatives that support him in Parliament. The Prime Minister is elected to Parliament by only one constituency and holds only one vote, so his personal power is the power of one. In theory the power to run the country is vested in Parliament, not the Prime Minister. In a majority government situation with enough members adhering to his leadership he has great power but only because he controls Parliament. In a minority situation Parliament is in a much stronger position but the elected representatives are caught in a catch 22. If they oppose the Prime Minister too strongly causing the government to fall they may all be sent packing back to the people looking for votes
to get re-elected and they do not want this to happen because they might lose not only their seat but all of the perks and money that goes with the job.
Harper is far from being the first Prime Minister to use questionable tactics. The power of Parliament has been eroded throughout it's history.
I posed the thread as a question because I do not personally believe that Canada is a dictatorship. I do believe however that the difference between democracy and dictatorship is only by degree and the line between the two is subjective. I do believe that Canada today is less democratic than it was 50 years ago, so I have some fear of the edge of a slippery slope!
Tommy Douglas's name was mentioned earlier in this thread. I am old enough to remember when Lester Pearson faced a minority situation in Parliament, went back to the people and was returned with another minority government. Instead of sulking and trying to dismiss Parliament he tried to gain consensus from the opposition. Tommy Douglas was the leader of the re-jigged CCF / NDP. Tommy would support Pearson but he had an agenda of his own. He wanted National Health Care ( a program that he had started as Premier of Saskatchewan ) and he wanted a national pension plan. There was great hue and cry from the right wing but these programs were implemented. This government of the 1960's in hindsight is regarded by most Canadians as the best one that we ever had. It was a minority that worked for the people and that is why Tommy Douglas is held in such high esteem!
In no way do I wish to compare Harper to Hitler or insinuate that he has any of the same desires but there is insight into studying how Hitler came to absolute power and how democracy was eroded in Germany.
Germany in the 1920's was a democracy with a parliamentary system in some ways similar to ours but with a president who had power similar to our governor-general. Governing power was vested in the parliament. Hitler was elected twice (on a platform of improving Germany's economy) but his party held fewer than a majority of seats. He was named leader of a minority government by the president. Most people know the rest of the story!
I am sorry to be so damned long winded in answering your question 3refs.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: 3refs
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 12:13 PM

I won't assume, I'll just ask. Was this thread started because the Prime Minister prorogued parliament(for the 105Th time)?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:40 AM

This was a response post to a letter to the Editor in the Cape Breton Post. I feel it is worth posting here (it's hard to link, so I will post the complete text)

Andrew from Halifax, Nova Scotia writes: Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of need. The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
Posted 06/01/2010 at 12:42 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 01:02 AM

UI find THAT fuckin' difficult to believe!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 11:24 PM

Yes....hard as it is to believe, wer'e not perfect, eh? ;-) Some Canadians even use curse words!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 10:12 PM

You can dig out all kinds of dirt on Canada ... after all, it's just a country ... and like all countries around the world it's inhabited by people ... and as we all know people of all nationalities have their faults and weaknesses regardless of nationality and politikal spectrum.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 10:02 PM

Like here for instance:

Ipperwash

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:04 PM

We have a long history of getting extremely upset at our own police, Ebbie. ;-) Like police anywhere, they get seriously out of hand every now and then and abuse their authority. When they do, the shit really hits the fan, I can assure you...providing the press gets hold of it and the general public becomes aware of it. The police, however, tend to close ranks and protect their own, so it can be a long and nasty business getting them to admit they were in the wrong and also getting them to do anything about punishing their own people accordingly.

Anyway, thanks for the acknowledgment.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Canada a dictatorship?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:32 PM

>groan I am so sorry that I didn't know about Canadians' reaction to this tragedy. All I can say is that I never before saw the thread. In November 2007 I was in Oregon taking care of my sister after she'd had heart surgery. She doesn't have the internet- although I got it later for myself. It took a couple of weeks though.

I apologize. An attitude like mine doesn't help.