BS: Mass. Senatorial race

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:59 PM

Agree. Is that the so-called "nuclear option"? I say time to go nuclear.

O..O
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Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:20 AM

Actually, mouse, the Dems can force a fillibuster where at least one member of each party be in the Senate chamber 24/7 and speakin'... That rule has not been changed... But, yes, the Senate can have hearings in hearing rooms on other matters... So if the Dems wanted to they could certainly take a page outta ther Repub playbook and expand it... I think that would be purdy cool... I mean, the Dems could concievable control the Senate chamber itself and if I understand the rules correctly prevent the chanmber from voting on otgher matters... Then when the Repubs complain and try to make a stink about it the Dems could say, "Hey, guys, we thought you liked fillibusterin'... Come on in an join the party..."

Like I said, what the Dems are doing ain't workin' so why not use every parlimentary option out there to push thru health care reform and grab the heck outta the conversation???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM

If they trot off for a burger, how about a motion to suspend standing orders, followed by a guillotine, followed by a vote?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 12:57 AM

A filibuster no longer requires standing up and speaking. Since 1975 the minority party need only say "we filibuster" -- no need to stand up and palaver. They can all run off for a burger, and the filibuster is still on. Further filibuster no longer means bringing the senate to a standstill. You can filibuster on one bill and still do business on another. It really isn't the same beast that Jimmie Stewart acted out all those years ago. It's just a supermajority now.

O..O
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Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 09:12 PM

RE: A filibuster, they won't bring it on. They threaten to bring it on and hold out for concessions, and delay the passage. But they've already figured out that delay works for them and against the Democrats. The longer this goes on, the bigger the Republican majority will be in the 2010 mid-term.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 07:35 PM

Well, Carol, it would be better than folding every time the Repubs so much as wisper "fillibuster"... Heck, what the Dems are doing now ain't workin' fir them... I think it's worth the risk... Yeah, I reckon the first couple of days the polls would show that it was a bad idea but if the dems stuck to their guns and kept sayin' that they were in the fight to help the American people until Hell freezes over then they would come out of this with the respect that they ceratinly don't have now... The Repubs have allready shown just how obstinate they can be so seein' more of their obstruction won't really help them that much...

It's all in how the dems frame what why they are doing it...

I say, "Bring it on!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 07:16 PM

Unfortunately, it would be too easy for the Republicans to use the heroic imagery in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, and Jimmy Stewart's character's fillibuster, and compare themselves to that. Using that kind of imagery could backfire on the Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 06:50 PM

Well, now that corporate and union spending on propaganda is unfettered, you do have cameras in the Senate don't you? An edited podcast showing nothing but republican filibustering, the closer to reading the phone book the better (run it in on loops if necessary) and then astroturfing the message "This is how much Republicans care for democracy" with a link.

In propaganda terms it would be cheap too.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 06:15 PM

On health care??? If I were a Dem. senator I'd say "Bring the fillibuster on"... What the Repubs have done is threaten these things and that has worked... I'd say, 'Bring yer friggin' cots 'cause we're holding a real fillibuster poarty an y6a'll is invited" and then make the Repubs stand up and read the phone book for hours and hours at a time... That would send more of a message to the American people than all this mealy-mouthed crap...

In the words of Goerge Bush, "Bring it on, Bubba!!!"

B

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 05:52 PM

It appears that they could even pass some fixes for the Senate bill and then pass the bill afterwards, and that they only need 51 votes to pass the fixes (not sure exactly how this works, but apparently it's something that can be done). I don't know what's keeping them from doing that. Maybe they just want to allow Brown to be seated first for propriety's sake. It doesn't really matter if they wait until after he's seated, because that won't change anything with regard to the Senate bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM

They already passed a bill with the Senate they have. If they try to introduce anything now the Republicans will just stall it until the new senator is seated.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mg
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

I don't understand why the Democrats are not just saying we have two weeks, three days..however long until Brown gets sworn in..let's pass something. Instead they are saying the people have spoken etc. The people of one state have spoken and someone is still their senator legally. Pass whatever you can now and fix it later. Otherwise spend more years doing this. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 10:22 AM

"Better dead than red. You choose."
"Government of the people, by the people, FOR THE PEOPLE".
"On the 7th day, God rested. But we still have work to do".
"If living was a thing that money could buy, then the rich would live and the poor would die".

How short does a bumper sticker need to be?

"Guns not butter: Adolf Hitler".
"I just want my job back mister".
"Rich folks call it paradise mountain, but we call it poverty hill".
"Supreme Court: Ministry of Propaganda".

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 10:08 AM

Instead of flailing around, they should pass the Senate version of the health care bill and go on to other issues--IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 09:11 AM

Why do Dems have to complicate everything???

I mean, politics ain't rocket surgery... I see all over the news that thr Dems are gonna get creamed in the Novemebr elections... Unfortunately, that may be true because they just can't bring themselves to think in simplistic tea-baggin' ways...

All they need to do is carry one simple-ass message to the voters that the Repubs left them one friggin'ass mess, have offered nothin' since other than hotair and that Repubs should not be rewarded for failure and a year of AWOL...

What is so hard about that message???

Nothin', at all... But, no... The Dems will wonk it to death and give the Repubs more targets for their blowhardedness...

Makes ya' wonder what the collective IQ is of the Dems???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:28 PM

Actually, Ron, the whole thing is adrift without a helmsman. Obama was elected to lead, and he's proven himself incapable. The worse it gets the more incoherent he becomes.

               Today he walked the plank with doubling the tax exemption for people with children, whithout demonstrating the good sense to put a limit on the number of children. This guy's out in space.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:58 PM

Rig, you've done it again. Missed the point one more time.

The point is not that Obama can or should blame Congress. It's that since this Democratic Congress is headed for similar result the Republican Congress had in 1948--and for the same reason:   "Do-Nothing Congress".

In some respects this is even worse than 1948: now we have House, Senate, and Presidency all controlled by the same party--and it's still a "Do-Nothing Congress."

And a Congress which you would think would not want to make the president's job harder--but that's what's happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:14 PM

We had 8 years of rule by the mediocre. I'm not sure it's a model I can recommend anymore.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:05 PM

Actually, it seems to me like "Harvard-top-of-classeers" are the folks that need to be tuned out. You have to prove yourself to be a real sheep to become one, and following one will leave you drowing in the rain.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 09:35 PM

Bobert, Well that's not apples and apples as Pelosi is in congress, whereas the other three actually have power. But leaving that aside, I don't think they'd off somebody necessarily (directly) but they would turn up the ugly, perhaps hoping that one of their minions -- the teabaggers -- would do something rash. I think we're very fortunate we didn't have something very bad happen during the town meetings, when the teabaggers and their ilk were taking loaded weapons to angry public meetings.

Tanyrate if Rush and Glenn and Ann continue to whip people up, and nobody puts the brakes on, who can say what will ensue? These aren't exactly Harvard top-of-classers we're talking about. And their followers are even less so.

O..O
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Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 09:34 PM

Ron, where your analogy seems to break down is, the 1948 Congress was a Republican Congress. The Congress now is the same party as the president. Obama can't gain any traction by trying to blame Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:56 PM

So, mouse... Ya' think that if someone offed Rush Limbaugh or the Beck feller then the right would off Nancy Pelosi or Keith Olberman???

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:20 PM

So, Rig, do you finally understand the parallel between 2010 and 1948?

In case you are still a bit slow--based on past history, not a bad bet----, point is that the party which had the label "Do-Nothing Congress" attached to it lost bigtime in the fall--and we're just talking about the Senate and House.   The parallel is, amazingly enough, not exact----in case anybody is dying to point that out.   1948, of course, was a presidential election year; 2010 is not.

However, the point remains that "Do-Nothing Congress" is not really a distinction you want to have attached to you.

And that's the direction this Congress is headed--fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 07:54 PM

Now I ain't advocatin' killin' anyone but I can't help but wonder how things would play out if it were conservatives, rather than progressives, who lost 3 or 4 of their top dogs???

Then wholesale blood would flow. But when, since 1968, have progressives had the upper hand?

O..O
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Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 07:42 PM

My neighbors are dumb as creek rocks... Not exactly the kinda folks the CIA is gonna spend much time recruitin'... Half of them would prolly shoot themselves by accident... A quarter of them would get arrested before they made it too far outta the county fir bald tires and loud exhausts and the rest are just too danged lazy to do much of anything at all...

But yer right, mouse-t... Seems that the CIA has had a purdy solid history in recruitin' folks who are fully capable of assassinatin' other folks...

And I hate to say it but with all the stuff that is goin' on with this populist movement aginst the industrialists I fear that if Congress blocks the Roberts/industrialists little plan then we may very well be lookin' at another round or assasinations like we had in the 60's...

Now I ain't advocatin' killin' anyone but I can't help but wonder how things would play out if it were conservatives, rather than progressives, who lost 3 or 4 of their top dogs??? Again, I am not advocatin' anything like that... Just curious... We saw what it did to the "movement" in the 60's... Killed it with the killing of the movements most promising voices....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 07:26 PM

I ain't scared about one of my Obama-hatin' neighbors doin' he deed but the military industrialists...

The one buys the services of the other. Teabaggers aren't being bankrolled by Lipton.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 06:15 PM

Exactly, LH...

The so-called war on terror is being waged by folks who are all but powerless against the largest purveyor of international terror since Hitler: The US of A....

Makes all the tin-horn dictators of the world look like Boy Scouts...

And yeah, step outta line as a president or influential leader and "the man come and take you away"... Ask Bobby Kennedy... Or Martin Luther King... They both were standing up to the military-industrialists and had to be taken care of...

And yeah, Obama ain't immune from the same... I ain't scared about one of my Obama-hatin' neighbors doin' he deed but the military industrialists...

BTW, I find it interesting and disturbing that Hitler also understood this and the quess what group he snuggled up to??? Yep, the military-industrialists...

And the beat goes on...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:40 PM

LOL! Boy, I feel like moving right now...

How about: "WAR - LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT" and "KILL FOR PEACE"

By the way, how does "Shock and Awe" differ from "Terror"? And what do "Daisy Cutters" really do, cut flowers? And how does "collateral damage" differ from "war crimes"? And why do all the latest American military airplanes look just like something Darth Vader would pilot? And does a pilotless cruise missile feel regret or the weight of moral responsiblity when it blows up a house full of civilians or wipes out a wedding party?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:20 PM

Speaking of Orwell and 1984, someone posted this in all seriousness on the Code Pink Facebook group page yesterday...

"Love is War and War is Peace thats how life is. if you dont like it move to some Peace country."

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM

Well, it's been nice knowing you Little Hawk. We can expect to be disappeared within a week, maybe two, for truthspeaking.

President Eisenhower, why didn't we listen to you?!

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:00 PM

Okay, I won't decline... ;-)

You are so right, Mousethief, and it isn't just the Republicans. It's the entire military-industrial complex that is absolutely delighted to wage war on an abstract noun...a war that has no geographically identifiable enemy (so it can be fought anywhere they like) and no possible or forseeable end, so it can go on forever. That's perfect for their purposes.

George Orwell predicted this very type of situation of an endless war waged in distant places by Oceania (An Anglo-American alliance) in his great novel 1984. It came a little later than he had scheduled it, that's all. Big Brother is not a man...Big Brother is a financial $ySStem composed of giant banks, giant corporations, a giant military that is their mailed fist, and a large number of men in suits at the top who control it all (and who no doubt fight amongst themselves for the best perks while they're doing it). Presidents? Ha! Presidents and Prime Ministers are just their temporary and disposable errand boys. I figure that's what Obama is right now, but what if he decides to buck the $ySStem and fight the controllers? I really doubt he will do that...but if he did? Then things could get very interesting, but I wouldn't rate his survival chances as very good, because those people do not tolerate non-cooperation with Big Brother's greater world agenda. No sir.

The War on Terror is political doublespeak of the most outrageous sort, because it is itself the direct agent of terror on a huge scale, terror inflicted upon hundreds of millions of people in many different nations. It is what it pretends to be fighting against. It is the monster it pretends to be protecting us against. Just as in 1984.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 02:57 PM

Now imagine Obama trying to bring the conflict in Afghanistan and the "War on Terror" to a successful conclusion...

Nobody can bring a war on an abstract noun to a successful conclusion. And I'm not being pedantic. One of the design flaws -- or genius design features -- of the fatuously named "war on terror" is that TERROR DOESN'T END. So we either have to admit defeat, or continue to fight the war on terror indefinitely. Which is just what the Repuglicans want -- channels money to the military-industrial complex, and keeps it from being spent for ridiculous things like schools or health care or infrastructure.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:37 PM

I'm confident they had many, David.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

Being a UKer and not instantly recognising Mass as the abbreviation for a state I kept wondering why there was a mass senatorial race and just how many people were involved!

I understand now but tell me this - Did they have a Mass debate before the senatorial race?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:17 AM

There's another thread open to discuss health care reform. This one was to be for the Mass. Senatorial race, which was about a number of other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:42 PM

I fear that if I were to add any further comments or observations of my own to either one of those weighty subjects on top of the massive pile of verbiage that has already been expended on them on this forum by various people here, that the crust of the Earth itself might collapse under the accumulated weight, and we would all be killed.

Therefore, I decline.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:38 PM

Now, since the pedantry finals will not in fact be held tonight--though certainly not for lack of interest-- does anybody have another thought on something actually related to the topic----either the MA Senate race, or even the health care reform debacle?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:35 PM

If ya really want to win, LH, use invisible ink.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:33 PM

"...criticizing 'the hoi polloi'   seems pedantic...."

Welcome to Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:29 PM

Gad! I hadn't realized the pedantry finals were coming up so soon. I must sharpen my quill pen and ensure that there is a large supply of red ink handy. I intend to win this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:26 PM

And Rig, you maintain a virtually perfect record of missing the point.   Congratulations.

Since you seem to need a bit of assistance in understanding, the point had to do with the party against whom the accusation of "do-nothing Congress" was leveled.

For extra credit, Rig, in 1948 was that the Democrats or Republicans?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:20 PM

You thought about that, didn't you? ;-) Now...just consider the mental turmoil of a Dachshund confronted with 10 or 20 possible alternative courses of action! Or worse yet, 50!

Now imagine Obama trying to bring the conflict in Afghanistan and the "War on Terror" to a successful conclusion... ;-) Have you ever watched the Three Stooges attempt to do dental work? I have. Kind of like that...

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:19 PM

That's "...your comprehension, Richard,..." for those competing in the pedantry finals.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:15 PM

An oreo with or without au jus sauce?

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:10 PM

Since it seems to be beyond your comprehension Richard, I'll split it up, so you can understand it.

Just because all you have is a hammer, every problem is still not a nail. That means that not every problem is a nail.

Rig, you haven't learned this.



And Richard, you haven't learned to read carefully.

But you certainly have mastered the art of winning and keeping friends.   Do you still believe President Obama is an "oreo"?

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:10 PM

You CAN have more than 2 alternatives! Consider the problem of a Dachshund faced with an opportunity to chase a squirrel, grab a fallen hotdog, or drive off a trespassing cat! What does he do first? I count at least three likely alternatives there.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:04 PM

Richard, read what I said a bit more carefully.   It makes perfect sense--sorry to disappoint you in your compulsive pedantry.

Even--or even especially-- pedants have to read carefully.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 06:52 PM

mercy! I think I'll refrain from comment, and go fix myself a roast beef sandwich with au jus sauce!

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 06:33 PM

About as convincing as the assertion that you can have more than two alternatives. See Fowler who advises avoiding the phrase "hoi polloi" altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Mass. Senatorial race
From: mousethief
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 06:19 PM

Nyah nyah pbbbth. Truth, Right, Justice, and the Oxford English Dictionary shall conquer!

Us Ugly Americans and our dictionary. Gotta love it.

"Simple" maybe.

O..O
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