BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

"And people who care about education don't use obscene language!"

It's because of the damage the fucking Edukashon System did to my children that I started swearing in the first place.

A folk festival in Torquay? I ain't staying here..so you'll have to do that one...

A radio programme? Yup, I'd still love to do that one...don't have a techy brain though...and you told me I'd have to rub my tummy and recite the Bible backwards, at the same time, or some such thing...maybe it was stand on my head on the railings of Tower Bridge...

and don't worry about Woody, he's just smarting from being told off, which is odd, because he advocates telling children off...soooooooo...T'aint my fault he decided to pick up on a spelling mistake to poke fun...that was his decision, not mine...

Little Johnny IS doing PRECISELY what he's being told, actually, Richard...that's why he's drinking himself senseless out there, because he can't cope with the Conveyer Belt of Life any longer where he has to tick all the boxes and do as his Government tell him.

WHERE are our Rebels? Where are their Voices?

Silenced, by alcohol......and a Government who has given Little Johnny 24/7 Opening Hours....

Bit like Russia, really.

I suppose the next step will be Vodka on the NHS, except they're heading towards bankruptcy from patching Little Johnny up.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:47 AM

Lizzie, I've been told off by experts, so your little tirade disturbs me not one jot. I tried to have a larf with you, you got shitty - end of.

Now, I refuse to join in yet another round of Thread Wrecking with The Mudcat Motley Crew, so these are my last words on this thread.

Goodnight All.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 08:55 AM

WHERE are our Rebels? Where are their Voices?

We are all here, Lizzie. Rebelling against wooly thinking, wrong way logic and poor arguments, Raising our voices in unison. All but one that is:-)

Change of subject number 2. I am still on track...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 10:13 AM

"And people who care about education don't use obscene language!"

It's because of the damage the fucking Edukashon System did to my children that I started swearing in the first place.

No Lizzie the "education system" and "education" are two different things.

Having spent approximately 20 years longer in the Education System than you I am aware of its foibles and peculiarities.

Please do not swear on this forum - if you would be so kind.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:31 AM

Be Fair ! Lizzie DID make a good point in that they pushed twenty four hour opening and THEN Started going on about Binge Drinking

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 11:40 AM

"No, not the result of 24-hour licensing, but a picture of our troubled relationship with the demon drink."

2000 years of binge drinking from Saturday's Independent

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: paula t
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:03 PM

I think that the problem of alcohol abuse has been around for a long time. There is neither a simple cause nor a simple answer.

Yet again I have read that schools and teachers are to blame. In part I have to agree, as a teacher, that many children are under stress because of our target - led education system.However, I also believe that other adults are also to blame. Children today have very little "down time". Their school day is far more structured and full than my school day ever was.Many children are absolutely exhausted at the end of the day. Many of them are then driven to swimming lessons, dance lessons,extra tuition sessions,music schools etc etc.They then come home and start on their homework.There seems to be the belief that children should be occupied and learning all the time and that no time should be wasted.I often wonder how mums and dads would feel if someone dragged them away from the telly -when they flopped there at the end of a hard day -and made them do something "worthwhile and educational."Perhaps we need to lighten up as a society and let our children play ( Just like we did ) without being told off for playing on that lovely grass or making a noise.

I'm not making excuses for poor behaviour, but we seem to resent seeing children out and about, playing and "wasting time".Their lives are so structured and busy. I fear that we will see more and more "burnout" in children.However, this is not just the fault of we dreadful, uncaring, "stressy" teachers. It is the fault of society as a whole.Grown ups can develop drinking problems when they drink to escape. Maybe one of many causes of drinking problems in young people is this need to switch off and forget.

When I was younger (and no, I don't consider myself so old!) ,most pub managers would refuse to serve anyone who appeared to have "had enough." Most people went to a single pub or club for the whole night, and it would quickly become obvious to the landlord or landlady who was drinking to excess or becoming anti-social. A "quiet word" would be had, and the drinking was either then moderated or the person went home.Anyone turning up drunk to a pub or club was refused service. Does this not happen any more? Clubs and pubs seem to cater for "passing trade", with pub crawls more the norm.If drinking was monitored more carefully,then we wouldn't have quite so many people rolling out drunk onto the streets at the end of the night. Young people would still get drunk at first, because everyone needs to learn what their own limits are .I've been there, and a few experiences of ruined, shortened nights out and wretched hangovers soon taught me what my own limits were!

I believe that many adults set a bad example too. Not everyone sprawled on the street is a teenager. In fact I would say that the majority of people I have seen are in their late twenties or early thirties. The most common excuse?They were stressed out and needed to let their hair down.............I'm sure that there are many more reasons for the problem of alcohol abuse and antisocial behaviour , but I should stop typing now because I'm getting on my high horse. Many people will disagree quite strongly with my opinion, but hey, I'm a grown up.I've had a hard day and I'm off to grab a small glass of wine and put my feet up.I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:06 PM

It isn't the first time.

http://www.historyandpolicy.org/papers/policy-paper-62.html#summ

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: paula t
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:12 PM

A very interesting article, Folkiedave. Thanks for that.

Paula

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM

You've made some really interesting points, Paula, and it's good to get a schoolteacher's perspective on these disputes about education.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:09 PM

Here in the US there is a new fad - insert a funnel in your butt and pour in the scotch. Or have someone else do it for you. A woman is up on murder charges for doing just that for her husband. He died of alcohol poisoning. The intestines absorb the alcohol instantly.
Wouldn't you think that that would burn uncomfortably?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:24 PM

I guess that schools haven't changed too much since I went during and just after the war.

With just two or three exceptions, teachers were a worthless lot. I have to disagree about exams though. Mainly because I used to enjoy them. It was the only challenge one got for the whole term. And I loved math as well, but it was rarely taught properly. I hated sports, but they weren't taught properly either.

Pure math is a game. It is not real. It is fun. But were you ever taught that in school? NO, I guarantee you weren't.

And exam results should also, or mainly, be used to assess the teachers.
Every failure is one on their part.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

And really wouldn't go down well in the local, Sins lol!
Last time I visited a town centre pub I was amazed. The seats had all been taken out and every wall had huge plasma screens playing at full volume. No chance of a conversation or a spot of people watching between drinks. They are designed to get as many people in drinking non stop. The beer is far stronger than most in the past and if you don't like the taste you can have something that tastes like pop that will get you drunk in no time. The sole agenda a lot of kids have is to get as drunk as possible as quickly and cheaply as they can. It has NOTHING to do with working mothers (bearing in mind when they are working the kids are at school anyway)or the education system which is full of VERY caring professionals. It is sadly a sign of the times that everything has to be instant and loud.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:46 PM

Good teachers are worth more than gold, actually Bert....and I'm afraid that schools have changed a great deal.

Please read Paula's wonderful post above, because it so rare that any teacher stands up to admit what is going so wrong....

And I am absolutely with her on all this crazy After School Clubs and Extra Lessons for Little Johnny, where even in the swimming pool he is shouted at, tested, and told to achieve...

It's done so that parents who feel guilty about not being with their children as they should be can say "Oh, Little Johnny's doing SO well! He's an absolutely marvellous human being, because I'm out working for him all day long, to give him swimming lessons, riding lessons, football lessons, extra SATs tuition, extra GCSE tuition..because I'm such a bloody marvellous parent!"

Total crap, of course...because all Little Johnny needs is time to be a child....time to stand and stare, time to play in the fields with his mates, free of cares and worries, homework and exams...

We live in a terribly stressed out society..and those 20/30 year olds are no different to the teenagers now coming up, because this has been going on since they were teenagers...and NEVER before, no matter what articles are produced here...NEVER has my country and it's young people suffered in this way..and the kids ARE suffering...as is the whole of the country, because if you have a young generation out partying 24/7 then you ain't got a workforce who knows which way is up in the morning...

Gone are the days of Friday and Saturday nights out...it's now all week long..and just the other day, on the bus, I was behind two young people who talked about alcohol the ENTIRE bus trip, of about 20 minutes..with the lad saying that when he's spent his £10 cash that he takes out with him each night, he then puts the rest on his credit card...

And here's a blog I wrote a long time back about exactly what Paula talks of above...

All that we are missing through Time

"I'm just a human being trying to make it in a world that is very rapidly losing its understanding of being human." - John Trudell


If all teachers were like Paula..and like Bruce, then our children would be in very safe and caring hands..

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

This is NOT the teachers fault, but the Education 'SYSTEM' which is stealing our children's souls, as it drives parents to believe that all life is about, is Achievement.

It is an INDUSTRY, making billions of pounds, and those billions are being made from our children.

Eventually, people will wake up to it.


We are tested as never before, driven by a multi billion dollar industry that demands you have to have this exam and that exam for a job, no matter what your age, or your experience. If you ain't got 'this year's must have piece of qualifying qualification' then you don't get the job...

Cool, huh?

Crap, actually.   And deadly dangerous too, because a society that judeges only on Achievements becomes ruthless and deeply competitive...A Dog eat Dog society...which is exactly what we have.


Sorry, but we need to return to the Old Ways, as fast as we are able.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:56 PM

"The sole agenda a lot of kids have is to get as drunk as possible as quickly and cheaply as they can."

And tell me, do you think that's normal? Do you never ask yourself WHY kids want to do this? Can you not see?


"It has NOTHING to do with working mothers (bearing in mind when they are working the kids are at school anyway)"

MANY children now do not even get to eat their breakfast with their families, so rushed and hurried are the mothers to get to work, so they have their breakfasts at school.   Other mothers don't give a shite about their kids and don't even bother to feed them...

HELLOEEE?   Wake UP!

"or the education system which is full of VERY caring professionals."

Sadly, those who truly care are in the minority.


"It is sadly a sign of the times that everything has to be instant and loud."

It is sadly a sign of the times that our apathy has let this all happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 01:58 PM

Good teachers are worth more than gold

If all teachers were like Paula..and like Bruce, then our children would be in very safe and caring hands..

Yes Lizzie, I quite agree. It's well worth repeating.

Another problem is homework. It is all too often used to compensate for bad teaching. I had this math teacher once (one of the three good ones I mentioned earlier) who hated homework, he had to assign it because it was part of the course, so he'd give us a couple of the exercises in the first chapter so that he had something to mark.

Mind you he could teach though. I don't know how he did it, he'd stand up there and chat about everything under the sun, and somehow, at the end of the lesson you'd know the math.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM

Yes schools have changed a lot - thank goodness!! Maybe not all teachers are like Paula and Bruce but the vast majority are dedicated to helping the children in their care to achieve their full potential not just academically but as a person, socially, morally and as part of society. As for out of hours activities such as music, swimming (surely a necessity not a treat) horse riding etc I can't imagine many kids complaining and these activities were certainly on the go when I was a child so it's nothing new. I can't really see how you can make a connection between kids being given the chance to do such things and alcohol abuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:19 PM

Sorry, but we need to return to the Old Ways, as fast as we are able.

Corporal punishment? Classes of 50? Diptheria? Tuberculosis? Scarlet Fever? Measles? Mumps? Polio? The old tripartite system of education? Pupils (let's not call them kids eh?) separated at 11+ and one exam virtually deciding your life? Slum housing? Tin baths? Women knowing their place? Gas lighting?

I look at the old photographs of my town and all I can see is vast improvement. Sure we left our doors unlocked. We had nothing worth stealing.

Or further back than that? Cholera? Typhoid? Horse transport? No transport? One cold water tap? Candle light? Mass overcrowding? Low life expectancy.

I approve as much of binge drinking as I approve of Lizzie's foul language on this thread. Which isn't as she pretends earlier a function of the failure of the Education System. In fact until recently she spelt the word when she used it, "fook" and ocasionally "foook". She also spelt the word "f*ck".

Before about June 2009 she she never swore like that on threads. So even if it was the the Education System that made her use obscene language she never used it on Mudcat. It is simply that Mudcat moderators let her do it.

Fortunately the rest of us have different standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 03:50 PM

No, Dave, you know that is NOT what I meant. And in your rush to belittle my words, you have completely misconstrued them. I said the 'Old WAYS, not the Old DAYS'...


Teachers, in my school, did not make you feel that without your exams you were *nothing*. There were bad teachers, there always are, but teachers were allowed to teach in the way that was natural to them. They were allowed to design their own lessons, go off at tangents, and they didn't pile homework on us, or 'course work' either.

Your O levels didn't start from the moment you started the new term of those two years....It just carried on as normal, pretty much, with all of us swotting up a couple of weeks before the exams.

We went swimming for the fun of it, not to gain certificates and go up to the next level and the next and the next...

Teachers were not under HUGE pressure to meet their targets, tick all the boxes, and there were no school tables for anxious parents to pore over, deciding whether they should move house or not...etc...

We spent long hot summer days in the park, watching the cricket whilst chattering to one another, drinking Coca Cola or Pepsi...eating ice-creams and laying back on the warm grass, not to have oral or anal sex, but purely to relax, stare at the sky...whilst still talking to each other....and we were boys and girls in that group...

Friday and Saturday nights we often went to the local disco, but only if it was OK with our parents, who normally ran us there and picked us up...and most people drank soft drinks or beer at the bar. I don't ever, EVER remember seeing girls drunk in there either.

Of course, things started to go downhill as the alochol was pushed harder and life was made to be more stressed out and harsher...Discos closed down...

We grew up with happy music and happy times..and my generation and the one before was extremely lucky, I now feel.

Life was far gentler, because the Old Ways were still in place. Men did not expect 'sex' on the first date, and most girls wouldn't have given it to them either, because 'love' was higher on their agenda...

We didn't dress as tarts, wouldn't have wanted to...but we did dress in feminine styles, even with our jeans and cowboy boots on...

And then, the 80s hit...hard and hating...and life became harsher and harsher and harsher...and long after the Miners Strike was forgotten by many, apart from those who were so deeply torn apart by it, those who used it as an open door to anarchy were still working hard to disrupt and to cause damage...

'Class War' spread it's message of divisive hate. The Extreme Left helped it all along...TV programmes became more and more violent, women became less and less feminine and the Sex Industry replaced love.

The paedeophiles worked hard on the children...from within the toy industry, the music industry and the fashion industry and before long the Alcopops Industry was on our doorstep, and the sweet, pleasant drink was being supped by millions of very young teenagers, as the craving for alcohol seeped into their system, romanticised by the Drinks Industry itself.

In Horrabridge three shops started selling them, changing their entire shop layouts to give as much space as they could to all the new 'fun' drinks that were now becoming fashionable...because they made such a profit....

And no-one cared about the children......

The shopkeepers got rich, the parents got happy kids...and the kids found something that made them feel that actually, life wasn't that bad after all. In fact, as the alcohol grew stronger they found they could just about cope with all the tick boxes they had to tick in their controlled, dictated-to lives.

The trouble was, they needed to drink it 24/7....and then, one day, along came Mr. Politician who told them they could. In fact, he and his cronies said it was a wonderful idea!

So they did as they were told...and their parents smiled, happy that Little Johnny and Little Jemima were also happy, at long last...

Yes, life in Proleland was going exactly as planned........

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:00 PM

I must say I am now having difficulties following the thread at all. First the government was congratulated for 'waking up at last' and doing something about binge drinking. Then they were criticised for causing binge drinking in the first place making kids go into the 'education system' when they were born. Then 'the system' was criticised for being too strict and structured. Then we were told that discipline was all part of lthe loving attention that children need. Then a very employee of that that system received lavish praise for telling us 'the problem of alcohol abuse has been around for a long time. There is neither a simple cause nor a simple answer'. Yet, we hear that it is simply down to 'the Education 'SYSTEM' which is stealing our children's souls'.

I guess the education system must be crap because I was brought up in it and cannot follow that reasonaing at all. Ah well. At least I am not on my own...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM

Oh - and I think we may be on change of topic 3 or 4, Still waiting for more cries of victimisation:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:02 PM

Hey guys and gals, you are ruining a very good thread again.

Its the same ones again.

Get a grip of yourselves. You are behaving like children.

I'll get me toys

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM

Since your childhood was so idyllic, how come you turned out to be such an arsehole as an adult?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:46 PM

I hope you didn't direct that at me Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: The Barden of England
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

Lizzie - Why can't we show our children how to be responsible adults? Children grow up - I know as I was one once, as we all were. I fail to see why the majority in this land should pay with their liberty by the faults of the minority, and I'm sure it is a minority. The news programmes only show the selected few stumbling out of pubs and clubs. Why don't they show us the vast majority of people who go out and enjoy themselves, young and old? Maybe it's because it doesn't make good news. I'm sick and tired of the majority in this country paying the price of a tiny minority acting like complete idiots. Ban the idiots, not the populace.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:23 PM

Just what planet are you from, Lizzie?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM

Hear hear that man. I spent over 20 years teaching the 16-19 year age group.

They could be trouble but 99.9% were great and I see some of them, with every social disadvantage in the world teaching at that same college having done education the long way round if you like.

I have seen so many people with very little advantage in life do so well it annoys me immensely when people come along and disparage them and the teaching profession. I have seen people in quite important jobs say to teachers "If it wasn't for you I wouldn't be here".

There is a "moral panic" about binge drinking. It happens elsewhere in Europe. Look up "botellon"in Google. I was in southern Spain when the Sevilla/Granada botellon's took place and it was clear the newspapers had exacerbated the problem. They all went barmy for a while and then calmed down once the newspapers had had their say and moved on to other things.

I go to a lot of festivals and I see the dozens of young musicians working so hard at their music and then having a great time with it and each other. In over 40 years of going to folk festivals I can count the bad incidnets on the fingers of one finger. What a shame people don't concentrate on them.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:32 PM

hmmm sounds like you did FolkieDave

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:36 PM

Les I wouod no mre direct a post like that at you than.......than.....than..... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:38 PM

Lying git :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:41 PM

The only way I am going to let you off, is if you visit Faldingworth Live. We have the Pub camping area where you can lay your weary pissed out of your brains head (Thats after the concert) at no cost. So no excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 05:50 PM

Strange then, how this non-existant problem is costing the country and the NHS BILLIONS of pounds...

I mean, that's a whole lotta money for something that isn't happening, huh?

My childhood wasn't 'idyllic', it was very ordinary...very, very ordinary..and I didn't grow up to be an arsehole, for your information, nor an obsessive internet stalker either.


Folk Festivals, Dave.

Why yes.

And if you read my report on the first Sidmouth Folk Week a few years back, which is still on the BBC, you'll see me saying in there about the camaraderie, the sense of family and belonging that was going on inside the Ham Marquee during the main show, whilst outside, the Lost Children were being rounded up by the police, after one had attacked another with a knife, almost cutting his throat....The young girlfriend was in the Ladies Toilet with me, trying to wash out the blood from her tissue, so she could use it again on her 'man'...

And on their hips sat the babies, the next generation of Lost Children....

It's all there, on the BBC board....about 60 pages back now, but I expect you know exactly where to find it..

Sorry John, but in this instance, I know way too many young people who have been touched by alcohol, so I don't believe it's a tiny minority...but I agree wholeheartedly with you that we should, as a nation, have far more GOOD news around, along with uplifting TV and Radio programmes...

Far less Eastenders and Big Brother and far more happy and inspirational programmes...and News, for all.   Great idea..and one that Michael Moore commented on in his Bowling for Columbine film, when he mentioned how the Canadian Government ensures that its population has a good percentage of positive news, thus making people feel far more hopeful and cheerful.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM

Spot on Mr Barden.

To lump clubs and pubs together as having the same effect, is frankly stupid.

The majority of pubs serve responsible locals who go out for a quiet social evening, and the landlords of those have a degree of respect for law and order which prevents the kind of abuse which is under discussion.

Most pubs actually close fairly early, between 11 and 12pm.

Clubs, and the very large town centre boozers are a very different matter, serving until the early hours without care or thought for the condition of those they turn loose on the local community.

Lizzie commented on the loss of the Discos she used to go to in the sixties. What the hell does she think attracts the youngsters to night clubs in the first place. They are, of course massive Discos, and the sweat worked up in dancing translates to a monumental need for liquid intake, which the cynical owners are only too happy to supply.

Pre-loading on nearly free supermarket booze completes the picture.

Yet this incompetent bunch of lunatics at present running the asylum, decide to ignore the real culprits, and concentrate instead on completing the destruction of the British Local, thereby punishing for binge drinking,the one section of the population which doesn't do it.

Well done all you politicos, who have your own local in Westminster, immune to the regulations applied to ours.

If we, the responsible majority, don't get rid of these prats when we have the chance, we'll have to do all OUR drinking and music making at home.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:36 PM

"I didn't grow up to be an arsehole, for your information, nor an obsessive internet stalker either."

Many would disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 06:37 PM

If children are not educated to be able to compete, then, until we reform the capitalist system they will indeed have something to need to blank out of their minds: the fact that they are useless. Remove capitalism or enable people to make their way in it.

The biggest problem is the admiration of the useless for the useless. Until idols are no longer footballers and plasticised musicians, but in stead people who do something useful or admirable, there is no hope of aspiration guiding people to improve themselves.

But in stead "intellectual" is a term of abuse in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:03 PM

And if you read my report on the first Sidmouth Folk Week a few years back, which is still on the BBC, you'll see me saying in there about the camaraderie, the sense of family and belonging that was going on inside the Ham Marquee during the main show, whilst outside, the Lost Children were being rounded up by the police, after one had attacked another with a knife, almost cutting his throat....The young girlfriend was in the Ladies Toilet with me, trying to wash out the blood from her tissue, so she could use it again on her 'man'...

It shows that things were bad way back in the 1950's then?

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jan 10 - 07:08 PM

""But in stead "intellectual" is a term of abuse in England.""

Of course it is, and will be so until we rid ourselves of a government which relies, for its survival, on dumbing down the population so they will be thick enough to vote for it.

Why else do you suppose they are so violently opposed to what they call "Elitism", when what they are describing is the achievement of full potential by the most able.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 02:32 AM

Dave and Lizzie, stop your squabbling and stick to the topic of discussion. If Lizzie wants to use juvenile language, that's her right....I guess. But her choice of language is not the topic of this thread.

-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 03:57 AM

The media will latch on to anything untowards which is why they report on the bad behavior of the few. The NHS are struggling under the strain of lack of funding and poor management which is why the government is happy to use whatever it can as a scapegoat for their mis-management. I am not saying there is no alcohol abuse problem. There is, always has been, always will be. But the problem is no worse today than it has been and people running round like headless chickens, telling us how bad things are, are playing right into the hands of the cynical political spin doctors and their lapdogs, the press.

Out of interest, and linking to another thread close to the heart of the opening poster... One of ths reasons that Cadbury formed their company was to provide an alternative to alcohol. John Cadbury was so horrified by the gin drinking depravity of the Victorian era he decided to do something about it. Full story here. It seems, in some ways, the binge drinking of today is a return to those old fasioned values so vaunted by some:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 04:25 AM

Save the NHS from Alcohol Abuse - Article from The Guardian - 8th January 2010

You know, Dave, *you* are the one who is sounding like a politician here, because you are refusing to acknowledge the unprecendented situation that is happening here in the UK.

At present, it is cheaper to buy alcohol in some clubs than it is to buy water...and the estimated rise in numbers of people now being admitted each year to the NHS, because of alcohol abuse is 80,000.

Sorry, but never before has this happened....and it was NOT like this when we were young. To state otherwise is a downright lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:01 AM

"Elitism" lies not in enabling the able, but in devaluing those other than the elite. Subsidising the opera while doing nothing to aid (and indeed much to attack) folk music is elitist.

Aspiration is admirable (so long as the aspirer uses legitimate means) yet, for example, the underclass and their young denigrate those who speak or aspire to speak better - for example the morons who scoff at Joanna Lumley's achievements by calling her Joanna "Plumley" - simple abuse for her better speech habits.

Binge drinking relies upon those indulging (and their peers) seeing nothing wrong in two things - first the drunkenness (and lets face it we see plenty of that in folk and folk-alike music - but usually without offensive behaviour) and second the offensive behaviour.   This is part of the rejection or ignorance of standards (another example, the inability or disinclination of even the BBC to use correct English) that mars Britain.

So there is a combination of three forces for drunkenness - first the history of civilisation reveals the pleasures and addictiveness of alcohol, second the creation of an underclass of society's discards creates the need (like de Quincey) for oblivion, and third afordability.

Then there is the absence of forces against it - the acceptance both of both drunkenness and of boorish behaviour.

Letting children play truant or run riot against their teachers is in no way a proposal likely to reduce drunkenness.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:12 AM

AS I patiently explained with an quality academic reference, it is not unprecedented. It has happened before.

And as I patiently explained whilst the drinking was not like this when I was young there were all sorts of other things that were not like this either.

As I patiently explained this is a phenomenon in other parts of Europe too. I remember being in Portugal in 1994 or thereabouts and they were complaining about it there and at that time.

There has been a huge increase in booze sold through supermarkets. But it is virtually impossible to purchase booze in a supermarket if you look and/or are under 21. Indeed a friend who was buying a bottle for herself was accompanied by her son and they refused to sell her the alcohol on the grounds it might be for him. He is 22 but had no ID. They would not take her word for it.

Most of the people who binge drink are not young children or even teenagers - they are over 18 and mostly over 21.

There never was a golden age to go back to. Except in people's minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:39 AM

"AS I patiently explained with an quality academic reference, it is not unprecedented. It has happened before."


Really?

You mean we've had Happy Hours before,' 'Drink as Much as You Can for as little as possible Hours', 300 clubs and pubs within ONE square mile, 30 in a 600 yard stretch in Barnsley, women so drunk, en masse, that they can be raped and not even remember it, children have their own lemonadyalcohol, exams throughout our lives, control, dictate, control, celebrity this and that, dumbing down, doctors and nurses being physically abused by drunks, security guards in hospitals to deal with this problem....etc..etc..etc.......?

Well, silly me, I just never realised.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:45 AM

Sorry, Liz, but it is NOT unprecedented. Just think about it - everytime the amount of alcohol abuse increases it is 'the worst ever' so it constantly happens and as the population increase it will continue to do so. The government and NHS management are simply providing the smoke and mirrors to mask the mis-management of funds.

That aside the article you refer us to makes no mention of whether this has happened before or not. Show us hard evidence that alcohol abuse is worse now than during the days of the Victorian Gin Palace and you may gain some credibility.

And alcohol has been cheaper than water since the introduction of designer waters. Not just in clubs but in ordinary pubs. In my local a bottle of Perrier is £1.50 while half a bitter is £1.10 but what the hell that has to do with anything I don't know. Apart from it is change of tactic number 5 or 6...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Oh - sorry - going right back to the begining, and the thread title, do you think the proposed reforms are a good thing or not?

D,

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Richard, from my Myspace page...

"Our system of "people fame" values self-centeredness and wealth. I want to live in a world where people become famous because of their work for peace and justice and care. I want the famous to be inspiring; their lives an example of what every human being has it in them to do — act from love!" - Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams

"...OUR MEDIA AND THE PEOPLE IN POWER HAVE MANIPULATED OUR ADULT POPULATION TO STOP THINKING. THEY MANIPULATE THEM TO BE A CONSUMERIST SOCIETY. 'BE INTERESTED IN A MERCEDES! BE INTERESTED IN SPORTS! BE INTERESTED IN BRITNEY SPEARS! WE WILL TAKE CARE OF THE BUSINESS!' AND THEY LEARN FROM HITLER'S FRIEND HERMANN GOERING THAT IF YOU CAN MAKE THE POPULATION FRIGHTENED YOU CAN GET THEM TO AGREE TO ALMOST ANYTHING..." - Dr. Hunter 'Patch' Adams


....even drinking themselves senseless....

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:01 AM

"In my local a bottle of Perrier is £1.50 while half a bitter is £1.10 but what the hell that has to do with anything I don't know."

It has to do with greed, or perhaps 'survival', as so many pubs now suffer from the 'drink-driving' laws. People don't drink alcohol in pubs as they once used to, so all soft drinks, including water, have rocketed in price.   

Do I agree with the reforms?

I agree that *something* has to be done, and that has to be something DRASTIC.

I think hitting pubs is wrong, although I do agree that all landlords should be responsible and if anyone is driving, then they should ask for their keys before giving them alcohol.

The clubs are the main enemy though. They have destroyed our city centres and the lives of so many young people. They are run by leeches who couldn't give a damn about the people who fall over senseless outside their premises, neither do they care about the impact and cost of it all on the rest of us.

I think that if you deliberately choose to drink yourself senseless every night, and end up getting hurt because of that, then you should pay for any medical treatment incurred, together with police time and ambulances being called out.

I think we should go back to Off Licences and take the booze out of the supermarkets.

I think the Government should stop thinking of the revenue they'll lose if they bring in drastic measures to curb alcohol excess and start thinking about their bloody country and her people instead!

I have no time for people who drink and drive....and there should be an absolute 100% ban on ANY alcohol being in your body in you are driving. That goes for mind-bending drugs too...and they've not even touched that part....

I also think they need to start a massive campaign to change the whole drinking culture in this country, not with the daft adverts they've got at present, which actually send shivers down me, but with teaching children self-respect, teaching them to respect others, teaching them about greedy corporate bastards who want nothing but their money and couldn't give a toss how their lives end up.

And I think they need to do the biggest survey ever as to why people are drinking themselves senseless like this in the first place...then act upon it by making people's lives far less stressful.
They need to stop testing children. They need to remove the pressure on schools to 'achieve'. They need to get rid of ALL 'tick boxes' and 'targets'...they need to make Univeristy free again. They need to make housing cheaper somehow. They need to get rid of VAT completely, because we're all taxed to the hilt as it is. They need to start being bloody honest, with themselves, and with us.

In short, they need to Reform Themselves, and then Reform this country...and like a potter, they need to take what is now a lump of clay without roots, without culture, without history, and turn it into the most shining, sparkling statue that will illuminate its' beauty around the world.

I LOVE this country.
I LOVE her people...
I HATE what we have allowed to happen to it.


My dear friends, Gloria and Charlie, lost their only child, Peter, their 22 year old son, to a drunk driver, and it destroyed their lives. No-one has the right to do that to any other person, purely through alcohol...and any government that refuses to acknowledge what is happening purely because they don't want to lose the revenue, should hang its' head in absolute shame!

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 06:04 AM

And...they need to reform Motherhood, making it the most important job in the world, because....it is! If you have the state rearing the next generation, then you are in big shite.

We do.
We are.

Subject: RE: BS: Binge Drinking reforms....UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 10 - 09:33 AM

The repeated warnings from health professionals, the statistics on alcohol-related ill health and hospital treatment, and the calculations of cost to the NHS tell a very different story........As shocking, though less documented, is the two-thirds increase in cases involving pensioners.

So there is a huge increase in pensioners drinking too much.

Aren't these the ones who had the enjoyment of the life that you want to get back to Lizzie?

And you missed out apple pie. We need apple pie as well as motherhood.