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Subject: BS: Irish Towns From: Duke Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM I've noticed that many Irish towns are called Bally something or other. Can anyone tell me what Bally means? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: GUEST,mauvepink Date: 27 Jan 10 - 02:50 PM try this Hope it helps mp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: gnu Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:22 PM Kewl mp... thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM Bally (or something similar) in Irish and Gaelic just means a town, eg Ballynahinch (Co Down) - town of the island Baltimore (Co Cork) - town of the big house Ballachulish (Argyll, now Highland) - town by the narrows |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: Duke Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:42 PM That was quick! Thanks, people. My question has been answered. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: Lox Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM Even Dublin is "Baile Ath Cliath" in Irish. And to the south of Dublin you have Booterstown, otherwise known as "Baile An Bothair" The list goes on. My favourite is Ballinspittle, a village that you could miss if you blinked whilst driving through it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: mg Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM My ancestors are from or near from Ballyferriter..town of Ferriters I presume. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: Paul Burke Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:45 PM Irish townsfolk are fond of bally dancing. It keeps them on their toes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:31 PM Grandparents and Dad came from Croughta, Baile na Cloagha (Ballyclagh), County Cork. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 10 - 07:41 PM Below is the full text of the information in the link above to an unfinished document on Irish placenames. There's a longer list of place name elements in the Wikipedia article on Place Names in Irish. Components of Irish Placenames
This list stops here: because of time constraints I have been unable to complete it.
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 29 Jan 10 - 04:21 AM Dublin, of course, is not a Viking word, but is derived from the Irish for Black Pool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: MartinRyan Date: 29 Jan 10 - 05:36 AM In modern Irish the adjective would follow rather than precede the noun - so we'd expect the place to be called Lindub rather than Dublin! I've never seen or heard convincing evidence that the order was otherwise, say, 1000 years ago. While I'm no expert on Early Irish (and I am a Dub), I remain agnostic on the name origin for now! Regards p.s. Jerry O'Reilly might have something to say on the matter - I'll drop him a line. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 29 Jan 10 - 08:15 AM I agree about the word order. As far as I know it's the same in all Celtic languages. Maybe it was a Viking trying to speak Irish, as I haven't come across any suggestions for North Germanic roots to the name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Nigel Parsons Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:04 AM Reading the comments from that Irish site, I would wonder if 'Bally' with its variant spellings is related to the English 'Bailiwick'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Liberty Boy Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:46 AM Regarding the origins of the name Dublin, as far as I can gather it has no Irish connection but comes from the Norse, Dyflin. Baile Atha Cliath, the name by which Dublin is known in Irish, means the town at the ford of the hurdles and the site of the ford is several hundred yards upstream from the Norse town. In modern days close to The Brazen Head pub. Hope this is of some help! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:09 AM But what's the origin of Dyflin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:58 AM P W Joyce, in The Origin and History of Irish Names of Places (McGlashan & Gill, 1875), which until recent times was the definitive authority, seems to imply that Ath-cliath (subsequently Baile-atha-cliath) predated Duibh-linn and did indeed refer initially to a foot-crossing on the Liffey "where Whitworth bridge now stands." He notes that Duibh-linn was translated into Latin as nigra therma (black pool) in the Life of St Kevin, and that this pronunciation (Duvlin or Divlin in English) continued "until comparatively recent times." It appeared in old English writings and on Danish coins as Dyflin and Divlin. The inference is that the name Dublin had its origins in Ireland and in Gaelic rather than in Scandinavia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: MGM·Lion Date: 29 Jan 10 - 12:56 PM Why, what a Rocky Road, to be sure — Wack-fo-lol-dee-da. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: robomatic Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:27 PM How about Sligo? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: MartinRyan Date: 29 Jan 10 - 08:31 PM Sligo <-- sl(o)igeach (Eng. shelly i.e. abounding in shells) is the usual derivation, IIRC. Regards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 30 Jan 10 - 07:40 AM That's consistent with Joyce, Martin: "Sligo: named from the river: sligeach, shelly river." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:03 AM While adjectives generally follow the noun in Irish the opposite is the case for compound nouns created by a noun and adjective. Dubh: black Na Dubhaoiseanna = the Dark Ages Dubhoighear = Black frost There are also many words in the dictionary beginning with 'du' which derive from 'dubh' Therefore, Dubhlinn (Dublin) = Black Pool. There is nothing strange about that construction. It is quite logical to assume that was the original name which was 'norsified' by the Vikings. Even though 'bh' is usually pronounce roughly as 'v' in modern Irish it was probably pronounced as 'b' in earlier times. Regarding the prefix 'baile' so common in Irish placenames; it very often equates to 'townland' the smallest unit of territory found on Irish maps. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: GUEST Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:17 AM Why can't I edit my post? Sorry, Peter K, I ran through this thread too quickly. In view of your info from P. W. Joyce, it appears I was wrong about the earlier pronunciation of "Dublin". The v/f sound of Irish seems to go right back. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Paul Burke Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:29 AM And don't forget Doolin on the far coast, same name I believe. I don't think it's consistently true that colour adjectives precede the noun- I quick example is Gortroe, the red field, with the colour afterwards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: GUEST,Donal Date: 30 Jan 10 - 08:34 PM P W Joyce's 'The origin and history of Irish names of places' is available on line at http://www.archive.org --------------------Link added. Mudelf-------------------- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Thompson Date: 31 Jan 10 - 04:45 AM An 18th-century book I have somewhere says Dublin on old maps was handwritten Baile Abhan Liath (Place of the Grey River), but the handwriting was mistranscribed as Atha Cliath. Sounds plausible enough - the Liffey is grey-green during most tidal stages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Paul Burke Date: 31 Jan 10 - 09:01 AM Don't take books like Joyce as holy writ. Placenames are subject to subtle changes that disguise their origins, and replace them with false leads. It's very common in English, and you can be sure that Irish is not immune. A good example is the "sea" ending in places such as Chelsea and Battersea, which has nothing to do with the ocean, but is derived from a word for "landing place". His history is distorted by nationalism and Celticism, and he seems determined to deny "alien" influences whenever possible. There's a lot of good scholarship gone on since then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: GUEST,Dáithí Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:20 AM My pet hate is the fact that many Irish placenames have been rendered meaningless by English map makers; so we have the "oily river" which is their tranliteration of the "Áille" river - which means "beautiful" - the opposite of what one might infer from the English name! And the River Braddon - which means nothing at all..from the river "Bradáin" which means river of salmon. Or the equally meaningless "Owentocker" river - where the name is derived from the Irish words "Abhain t-socair" meaning the still river. D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Irish Towns - understanding their names From: Matthew Edwards Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:19 PM I've found this site very helpful: the official Placenames Database of Ireland/Bunachar Logainmneacha na hÉireann with some helpful links to archival records. The site is available in English and Irish language versions. Matthew |