Record store decline.

Subject: Record store decline.
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 07:18 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8512404.stm

Indies band together to stem UK music store decline.

Less than 300 indie stores now exist compared to 774 in 2004.

Pehaps a way forward is for the shops to stage live events, those liking what they hear can buy the records and be encouraged to buy others?

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 07:42 AM

The thing is that indie bands are now inclined to make music available digitally and circumvent the production of CDs altogether.

Am I right in thinking that I am one of a diminishing type of music consumer who likes to have the LP or CD on a shelf and to hold in my hands?

Sometimes I think it would be nice to have it all digitised and make some space in my home. Then I think nope... I can't part with this collection. In fact I am quite proud of it, small as it is. Some are physical markers of phases of my life. Looking at an LP record cover or CD sleeve notes prompts some lovely nostalgic moments.

Even those, like me who prefer the genuine article to the virtual will shop for a bargain and order from online discount stores like Amazon and Play, even eBay. It is easier to shop specifically for what you want than trawling through racks and racks of CDs.

There was a time, I could spend a whole day in Plan Nine in Charlottesville, looking at, listening too and purchasing whatever caught my fancy. I don't have that kind of time or energy now.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 07:56 AM

CDs will be around for awhile, but I don't know about stores that sell them - at least stores whose main products are CDs. Like VT, I used to spend hours in record/CD stores browsing, but nowadays there is almost never a good selection of trad folk, which is usually what I'm looking for. So, I either order on-line (where you can usually listen to samples) or get it direct from the artist, either from their website or at a gig. I also like to have an actual CD, with liner notes, but sometimes I do download individual songs (yes I do pay for them) and make up a customized compilation CD to listen to in the car. I have an MP3 player but rarely use it for music - I mostly listen to books.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: GUEST,Greg in Baltimore
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 07:56 AM

RE:Am I right in thinking that I am one of a diminishing type of music consumer who likes to have the LP or CD on a shelf and to hold in my hands?

No. You are not alone with that. Maybe it's a generational thing. I'm a baby boomer. I've loaded most of my CD collection onto my ipod. Over 4400 tunes. I boxed the discs I used and stored them in the basement. Just in case and for backup.

What I need to do now is to digitize my old LP and cassette collections. I've bought a USB turntable for that. (the tt has provision for tape input). Once those are digitized, those will be stored downstairs too for the same reason.

I worked too hard and long to find what I like and won't part with the music.

But I try to keep it neat on the shelf.

Hope this helps.
Greg

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: olddude
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 07:58 AM

The internet and ipods have changed the face of everything anymore. Sure people still buy CD's but most of the young people only buy individual songs at a buck a download. They pretty much create their own CD's by picking and choosing what to buy. Likewise book stores have felt the heat. People are downloading books on their e-readers and such. I suspect the face of the music industry is going to change even more in the next few years. This is a good thing mostly. I think it is good for the indie artist because anyone can put a song on itunes and not have to sell their soul to the big record companies. The viral marketing of the internet has changed the face of everything. I look at my download charts on my meager music such as it is. I get quite a few downloads. I give my music for free and I suspect that is why the downloads sometimes gets high. If I charged I wonder if they would be even close to that. But for me it is about fun not about the profit. But I can tell what songs people seem to like or not like by looking at the download graph.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:51 AM

A great shame. I used to enjoy browsing record shops looking for LP's and later CD's which might interest me, both releases from familiar artists and from artists of whom I had not previously heard. You can't find something on the internet if you don't know what you're looking for! The passing of Tower Records - with its racks of folk, blues, bluegrass and jazz - is much to be regretted - and Solo in Exeter. There always used to be a few racks of 'folk' in every record shop, even if the definition was applied rather loosely: now 'folk' is in the single 'other' rack with everthing else from Bing to Beethoven.
The same applies to books shops, especially the second hand ones.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:09 AM

Actually I think it is easier to find things on the internet - especially Amazon. They have my browsing history and offer suggestions which are sometimes spot on. Sometimes when on a Mudcat thread the Amazon link comes up with suggestion and I've found some great stuff. Yes it's kind of creepy in a way but it has been very useful in leading me to CDs and downloads I wouldn't have found otherwise.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:13 AM

Zactly, Doc John...

And some delightful surprises can be found just browsing the racks that take you music listening flight in a totally new direction.

When you search online you are looking specifically and this limits your potential exposure to something new.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: olddude
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:16 AM

Doc
I myself love the browsing in an old bookstore or a record shop. Things just change. I think more and more of them are going to disappear. More and more printed books are going to disappear. It is like how we all use to all write letters, they were precious actually because think of how much history and family history we would have lost without them. Today it is email, and that is great for the instant response but we have lost something also by the technology for email is not normally saved by a family after reading it ...

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:48 AM

hey its been happening for yonks...

We don't see beautifully illuminated lettering and wonderful calligraphy being produced as it was.

And now all archivable media is generally saved/protected in great warehouses across the globe, (Record Office comes to mind) which is good in some ways and bloody dangerous in others.

What happens to those treasures if natural or man made disaster strikes?

No easy answers to the predicament.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:54 AM

And very few of the big box stores carry music that interests me anymore. I end up buying more of my CD's from Elderly and other sources. I still own over 2,000 LP's and plan to keep them. The artwork was so much better back then. An art gallery here in the Atlanta area has an art show featuring old LP covers. A few of them have the original artwork that inspired the covers to begin with.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:59 AM

What happens to those treasures if natural or man made disaster strikes?

Like the Library at Alexandria - destroyed in bits and then totally in the 4th century AD? They cease to exist.

People have been predicting the "death of the book" for 20 years or more, and book sales are actually increasing. The Kindle has, so far, made little impact on the existence of books as physical entities, but it will be interesting to see the impact of the iPad (beautifully parodied by Steve Bell in the UK's Guardian newspaper as the "iPant"). As somebody said to me, will s/h bookshops and charity shops be able to sell you a virtual book for your iPad for 50p? Probably not... Vinyl was thought to have disappeared as a recording medium, but it didn't. It still exists, and a lot of cutting edge modern music is made specifically for it.

However, what is different about the book and record market is the distribution method - with online sales causing the closure of bookstores and record stores.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: olddude
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:01 AM

Will I agree my friend up to this point, The kindle is new technology but a downloaded book runs 9 - 12 bucks ... a hardcopy is over 20+ ... the impact really soon will be shown because of the cost savings. Happening now

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:09 AM

Point about the price taken, Dan. I'm biased because I'm a retired librarian with a house full of books! No great pleasure before going to bed than thinking what to read and going from room to room, browsing the shelves and selecting from the titles on the spines.

Mind you, those Gutenberg Bibles are a bugger to read in bed.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:10 AM

Sorry - "no greater pleasure"...

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:15 PM

It has been years since record shops of any size carried the music I want. The internet is a welcome tool for those who like stuff aimed at a miniscule target market.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

Like Russ, I find little of the music I want at the record stores. Most cds I buy come from internet suppliers, many of whom probably do not operate from a store open to the public.

Once in a while I hit a local seller of old lps, but most of my buys are small volume cds that come by mail.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:27 PM

Are there any record stores left at all? Well I know there's one -- we used to have a local string called "Silver Platters" which had shops way south, south, east, north, and central. They closed them all except the central shop. I could easily get to the south location, but the central location just isn't damned likely. Since that was the only record store I know of in the south end, I am forced to buy online.

I could have gone to Border's but their selection was almost entirely current hits-based. And my tastes don't run that way. But anyway that's moot because they closed all those too, and the one nearby that isn't closed just sells books and not records anymore.

I don't want a music collection of mp3's because the quality isn't as good as a CD, and because if for some reason your mp3 gets deleted, you're out of luck.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 07:17 PM

There was a brilliant record store in Brisbane, apparently run by a couple of solicitors as a 'hobby', but it made money and paid for a good manager, etc. They had a lots of 'folkie' & comedy stuff and a wide range of esoterica, including 2nd hand vinyl. Was where I first found Nonesuch, including things like documentary things, eg Hitler's speeches, and a wide range of things like music based on "Bartel's music diagrams" - readings of the Sun's output, etc.

It suffered a bit with CDs & DVDs coming in, and changed a bit, but was still the only place where you could walk in and get things like a massive range of International (English language) comedy, and medieval Music, etc. The second hand stuff was where you could fiond Square dance calling records, 45s from the 60s. etc.

The owners died, and the apparently not so bright heirs wanted 'more money' - kicked out the esoterica, and stocked up on 'Top 10', etc, even opened a shop at the Gold Coast (moving out of a monopoly position, and into a crowded market), and farmed off the 2nd hand shop, and eventually the faithful manager left. It closed soon after.

If it had opened an Internet shop, it could still be going... you just can't get anything but 'Top 10' stuff in Brisbane, except for a couple of little 'Indie & Import' shops, but they have been dying off over the years too.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:03 PM

Tower Records was founded by Russ Solomon in 1960, here in the Sacramento (California) area. The store expanded all over the world, ang became very glitzy and commercial - but the Sacramento stores retained their funky quality that had made the chain so popular in the first place. The firm went bankrupt in 2006, and Solomon later founder a one-store chain, R5 Records - attempting to recapture the magic of the early Tower stores. So far, R5 hasn't been a big success, but it's still going.
I wonder what it will take to capture the atmosphere of the record stores of yore.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:49 AM

Browsing through LPs was a pleasure, not just the artwork but the sleeves were large enough to contain full sleeve notes. In a lot of shops you could listen to the album before buying. CDs just aren't the same to browse through.

Buying on-line has made things easier in some respects, and you can hear tracks again before buying. The biggest problem is that there's just so much music available - great if you're looking for something specific, not so good for browsing. I still prefer to have a physical product rather than downloads - too many problems with PCs breaking down, files getting corrupted, licences not working.

The introduction of CDs had a negative effect on my music buying. With LPs I'd often take a chance on a record, and if I didn't like it, I wasn't bothered. With CDs at double the price I began to think hard about whether I really wanted the album. Although CDs are now probably cheaper in real terms than LPs were, I'm still in that mindset and I'll often leave a record store without buying anything.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:54 AM

It's pretty much over for cds. Hard for Indie artists to make their money back - lucky if people buy cds even at gigs these days. It's a digital download world now - better get with it.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Michael S
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

A while back (5 years?), I read that the typical Tower Records outlet in the US would carry about 60,000 individual titles. A typical mass marketer such as Walmart carried maybe 5000. Now, Tower's brick-and-mortar stores are gone in America. (I stumbled upon one in Tokyo 2 years ago.) The smaller indies are closing, and the mass marketers such as Walmart and Best Buy are the only game in town for much of the US as far as actual "stores."

Here in Austin we still have a few viable indie outlets, though several others have closed.

As a teen in NYC, I used to buy records from my job earnings if I liked the cover and the packaging notes. Made some great discoveries that way. That's still possible online, but it sure is an adaptation.

Michael Scully
Austin, TX

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

The same thing is happening to hobby shops...only even moreso. Unlike recorded music, hobby kits are something most younger people don't get into much anymore...they play video games now. When I was a kid there was a hobby shop or two in every town. Those stores have vanished. The people who are still into buying hobby stuff (and you can get a simply incredible variety of it now and superb quality too) mostly buy it on the Internet, as the Internet is an efficient and fast route to a global market. With that in place, very few storefront hobby shops can make a living anymore. There used to be a bunch of them in Toronto (a city of 3 million). Now I think there are about 2 left...maybe 3...and they are struggling.

If I want to buy music, I don't go to a record store anymore. I go to the Net and buy from Amazon or directly from the artist. I don't download, though. I still buy CDs.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:51 PM

One of life's pleasures was going into my local record store on a Saturday morning and looking through the new arrivals section…If an album looked interesting I could then take the VINAL to the desk and ask them to put it through to a sound booth for a quick listen and if I liked I would buy

I guess eventually the door closes and there came a point where I had made up my mind what rocked my boat and what did not. So I became more selective and would only go to a record shop when I knew a new album was out by and artist I liked to buy the album.

Well now here is the thing…..now I love sitting with a cup of coffee and a set of headphones on listening to myspace artists or cdbaby samples…….a huge wealth of great music and I don't need to leave home!!

So just an Idea……but with a little searching trust me there is so much good/great new music out there and if I like it I can go and download it either free (if that is what the artist is offering) or buy the album as a download…………or even order a hard copy

So much easier and far more choice than a record shop could ever offer and an old git like me can once again take the blinkers off and once again discover music like I used to do..

Oh and one last thing ……….so much more convenient to have all the albums on a little thing called a ppod…or something like that…who would have thought all those years ago……

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: oggie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:52 PM

There are a couple of problems shared by all specialist retaillers.

Firstly (in the UK for sure) rents and rates are out of all proportion to what a small retailler can hope to make (in a large shopping centre the space the till takes up, just the till not the counter, can easily cost over £100 per year). As a result specialists end up in either shops that are too small to hold the amount of stock they need or in secondary or worse positions which means there is little passing trade.

The second problem is the internet. Overheads are less and so they can charge less and in some cases they don't actually hold stock but buy it with your money after you've paid them.

The flipside is that it means that the internet is fine if you know what you want but if you don't know it's out there how do you find it? Or as an artist how do you let people know it's there?

Steve

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:16 PM

Don't buy cds from Amazon if you want to support the artist. Amazon doesn't stock anything, they dump cds on the internet for low prices- the artist gets paid very poorly, and Amazon collects most of the money. Pathetic! Go to folk music online distributor or artist website.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 04:58 PM

Only the bad record shops will thinly disappear out of existence. I work in a record shop, and there has been an increased enthusiasm amongst a younger set for LPs. There's a connection to a tangible art that you don't get with digital download. And when your hard drive is stuffed with gigabytes of music, what's a song really mean anymore. And who really remembers their first download? You can buy music anywhere now, but the folks in your local record shop are usually the people investing their time and energy into the music scene in your community.

The profit on CDs was never that much. A few dollars at the most, barely anything if it was on sale. You made it by selling quantity. LP sales are helping, but the good stores with find other avenues to replace the dwindling CD sales. Used disc help. You get to decide the sound quality you want, find an album for cheaper than the on-line cost, and still collateral to sell back.

Support your community. Support indie shops. Love your local record shop!

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: evansakes
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 04:49 PM

This Saturday (16th April) is worldwide "Record Store Day"...(that's Record SHOP here in the UK).

Get down your local and see what's going on and show your support.....many are having special events, in-store performances etc.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Gurney
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 06:13 PM

Not just record shops, or as LH points out, hobby shops, and bookshops. Junkshops/secondhand shops have virtually gone.
As Oggie says, the rental on shops makes it difficult to make any profits. If you want a shop in any shopping centre, (and that's all there is here!) then you pay some faceless conglomerate huge money, and open the hours that they say you will, forcing you to be an employer, because it is seven-day shopping.

"Virtually gone." Freudian slip, there.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 14 Apr 11 - 06:29 PM

I went to a show featuring Furthur, the reincarnation of the Grateful Dead featuring Bob Weir and Phil Lesh, recently. During a lull in the action, I asked a 30 year old fan what his favorite Grateful Dead album was. He looked at me cluelessly, and said he wasn't that familiar with the albums. When I told him American Beauty was mine, he smiled and asked me what was on it.

He said his method of listening and following the various iterations of the Dead was to download "shows" or specific live versions. Thus, every young Deadhead is likely to be familiar with the song Terrapin Station from the Fox in St Louis 6/23/78, and may never have heard of Mountains of the Moon because it was rarely done in concert. Additionally, the value of the original band, Garcia included, is primarily interesting to them as historical material, while many of them will prefer the version of Terrapin that Warren Haines played lead on at Mesa Speedway 9/9/2002. In this sense, "the Dead" is an ongoing franchise rather than an entity that had its birth in, and has become an icon of, the 60s.

This is all very strange to me, that I should become more of an icon of the 60s than the Dead. Well, onward into the fog!

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 07:22 AM

The BBC has an optimistic story:

BBC: independent record shops making a comeback

I wouldn't be that sorry if HMV went bust, though the classical department in their Princes Street Edinburgh shop is pretty good.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM

URL says it all...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/40-sad-portraits-of-closed-record-stores

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Apr 11 - 06:43 PM

I miss record stores/shops...but I miss independent book stores even more.

A ray of hope, however. A new independent bookstore has opened. What is really neat is they can print and bind, in situ, any book. This is also expensive, and is not practical for single copies what with set up fees, actual printing and binding, nor even small runs.

Subject: RE: Record store decline.
From: J-boy
Date: 16 Apr 11 - 12:18 AM

The Internet is eating up everything. Books, music, newspapers,and our time. I can sniff the irony in the wind but for better or for worse here we are. Brave new world indeed.