BS: Obama's Brownshirts?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 10 - 03:12 PM

Too many people on Mudcat who delight in throwing muck around. Most of it ends upsticking on them, but they persist.

Yes, Joe, the titles (and much of the muck) should be removed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 10 - 04:06 PM

Thanks for that, BillD. I look forward to reading it more carefully later tonight.

Joe, I agree with Q and others...please change the thread title and any others which border on the same edge.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 10 - 04:54 PM

Including the "Tea Party KKK" one. We really don't need that kind of thread title.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 10 - 05:45 PM

The Republicans are divided, and lack a strong leader.

Much of what Bill D says is true. Conservative people, I think, are mostly sitting back and wondering what to do.
Palin, Paul, Beck, etc., all seem to be 'kneejerk' politicians- they please the crowd at a rally but when one considers their remarks at leisure, one tends to back away and hope for a leader who considers problems deeply and doesn't just give out one-line 'zingers'.

Locally and for a time they attract followers but not true conservatives. Time will tell if conservatives can find a leader who can offer constructive criticism and advice and influence the majority party.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 10 - 05:49 PM

True conservatives seem to have gone into hiding since the NeoCons took over the Republican Party. With the death of Will Buckley they don't even have a voice any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 05:57 PM

Well, as long as we have Republicans who are exposing KKK seperatist values (Paul) the the KKK anolgy sticks like glue... There is a reason that the very few black folks who originally attened these Tea Party rallies ain't going to them any more...

The Repubs need to clean up their act and quit catering to rednecks... When they quit that and denounce Paul's values that business owners have a right to refuse serving folks they don't like and quit wearing guns to Obama rallies then we will have something to discusss...

Right now, they are acting like terrorists and should be treated as such...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:04 PM

Bill D., your post of 22 May 10 - 12:48 p.m. is well thought out and much to the point. Thank you.

I voted for Obama on the basis that, of the available candidates in the running who actually had a chance to win, his agenda was the nearest to that of Dennis Kucinich.

If I have any issues with Obama, it's that I agreed with most of the agenda he expressed during the campaign and had great expectations for him and from him. I must admit to being a bit disappointed in how things are working out, but I believe the problem is two-fold:

First, the Republican opposition is absolutely determined to block everything he wants to do, to the extent of working against the general good of the country rather than let Obama accomplish any of the things on his initial agenda. It's obstructionism simply for the sake of trying to win political points.

And second, Obama is trying far to hard to elicit cooperation and build concensus when this is the absolutely last thing that he will ever get from the neo-"conservatives." Sometimes you just can't "make nice." You have to pull out all the stops, forget about getting cooperation from the opposition, and do whatever is necessary to get done what needs to be done.

This, of course, will get one called all sorts of things:   "Fascist," "dictator," "Nazi," "socialist," and on through the whole litany of what is already being said gratuitiously by the neo-"conservatives" and their blatantly biased cohorts in the so-called "news" nedia—along with, of course, the lunatic fringe, like our resident paranoid hate-monger, "ichMael" with his manic cranking out of ridiculously libelous web sites. ichMael is not alone. There is more than enough of this sort of vicious malevolence going around

Web pages like ichMael's come from just about every area in the country, but there seems to be a disproportionate number of them originating in the South, which tends to make me think that one of the major reasons for the sheer brutality of their attacks on Obama is simply that, as far as they are concerned, he is the wrong color.

Therefore their hate knows no bounds, and they will say anything against him, accusing him of things that would never occur to any sane person, especially to Obama himself.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:20 PM

Enough of this KKK, brownshirt, fascist, etc. shit.

It infers that the people whose policies you would object to would hang a ------ to a tree, or cordon Jews into their ghetto and set fire to it, or bomb Ethiopians to see their bodies scatter like a flower opening.

Is that what you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:21 PM

(thanks, kat & Don F,)

" the KKK anolgy sticks like glue"...no, it doesn't. Read my post on the other thread.

Rand Paul is a shallow fool, but you CAN'T stretch the analogy that far.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:32 PM

" Obama is trying far to hard to elicit cooperation and build concensus when this is the absolutely last thing that he will ever get from the neo-"conservatives." Sometimes you just can't "make nice."

Don...from what I've seen lately, he is getting that point! It may be that he knew what would happen, and just wanted the record to be crystal-clear that he TRIED and made offers and listened. Whatever... his rhetoric is getting harsher and the Dems procedures reflecting the truth.
It's hard to wrap one's head around the idea that the Dems really think differently than the Repubs about how to BE in power. During the Bush era, he & his minions had no trouble asserting that THEY won, and they were gonna do what they wanted! (Witness all Bush's 'signing statements' to avoid legislation that the liberal could fight.)

This Wall Street reform is one example, and now he intends to try immigration... we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:33 PM

Fine, Q... Have the Republican Party denounce strongly Paul's value that what black people (and white) fought so hard for in the 50's and 60's is utter crap... Or just wrong... The Repubs are playing to their redneck base and are scared to stand up and say that black folks should be able to eat anywhere white folks can eat. or swim in any pool that white folks can swim... Or even beelected president without a bunch of morons playing games about him not being a citizen...

Until there is some level of civility on the right side then we on the left will call these bastards down every time... You can take that to the bank... We have let the right get away with friggin' murder in my life time... They killed off our leaders in the 60's... They wear guns to Obama rallies... They preach seperatism... They play games with severly dumbed down people... They kill doctors...

I mean, they ahve been terrorists in our country and there can bo no truce until they quit trying to terrorize and scare people to death... Or just kill people to death...

No, I am not in any mood to cowtie to friggin' terrorists... maybe you are... I marched for civil rights in the 60's... My mother marched for civil rights, too... If I just say, "Let's jst get along" now without the terrorists amnong us aggreeing to quit terrorizing people then what my mom and I marched for is squat...

No, there has to be some "Civility Pledge" from the right... Until then, no fucking deal!!! I mean, I don't trust them to no assiinate Obama... They need to get a grip!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:41 PM

Yes, Bobert... those things are true...and need to be said....without the labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:50 PM

Ah, yes, now conservatives are "the terrorists among us." What utter crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: pdq
Date: 22 May 10 - 08:55 PM

...get a grip!!!   ~   B-pert

Good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: mousethief
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:14 PM

Ah, yes, now conservatives are "the terrorists among us." What utter crap.

Was it liberals who broke up town meetings with violent shouts and threats of greater violence (e.g. unconcealed weapons and shirts about watering the tree of liberty with blood)? No, it was conservatives. Was Timmy McVeigh, by any definition a terrorist, a liberal?

It may be tarring with too broad a brush. But it's far from utter crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:27 PM

No, liberal try to reason... The right doesn't have those abilities becasue they are basically stupidf people who have no compassion and no ability to think for themselves so they buly, bully and bully...

They steal elections.... They kill people they don't like... They send in goons to disrupt town meetings... They are borish assholes who have not done their homework and are incapable of compromise and incapable of having any abilities to govern... All they want to do is shove their Talibanish bullshit down yer throut and if you don't like it they'll just kill you...

That's the real deal here... I ain't callin' no one no names... I'm just callin' history as it has occured in y life time... Name one rightie who has been killed by the left... Just one!!! no one can, becaasue it hasn't happened...

I'm so tired of this shit!!! The left owes no one any apologies here and buying into thei "well, ralph, both sides are guilty" bullshit is just that... It's the ***BIGASS LIE*** and we on the left need to stand up to these thugs, these goons, these liars and say we're tired of haviong our people killed by ya'll, we're tired of having elections stolen... Hey, this ain't the Third World that ya'll on the right wish it were... And, BTW, quit revising history... Tell the children the truth... This ain't friggin' german in the 30's...

(Or is it???)

And no more equatin' Obama to Hitler... That is very fucked up thinking!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:27 PM

Thanks for calling conservatives stupid. And "borish" assholes. And "talibanish."
Fuck off Bobert!

No point in further discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:46 PM

Never was...

And for the record, that is what so-called conservatives (which really ain't conservatives at all but people pissed off that their fraternity ain't suckin' the front teet of corporate America) have become... They aren't eh William Buckey intellectuals... They are thugs...

Any of ya'lls want to ***discuss*** policy then fine but I've had enough of ya'll preachin', cyber-stalkin and game playin'...

Ya'll want to call Obama a "socialist" and someone that weren't born here then yer like the Taliban... Yeah, that's what the Taliban does in Afganistan... They sneak into villiages and scare people and tell them lies... Ya'll righties make me sick!!!

Ain't no policy discussions... Just the same old, same old....

And for the record, ya'll wouldn't understand or recognize a true conservative if he or she bit you on yer partisan asses...

BTW, the Taliban is lookin' for a few "good men"... E-mail yer applications to [e-mail]...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: olddude
Date: 22 May 10 - 11:29 PM

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
Thomas Jefferson

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: olddude
Date: 22 May 10 - 11:41 PM

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
    Thomas Jefferson

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 May 10 - 04:11 AM

Bill D: "I said it was hard to explicate simply....it would take days to spell it out, but there are clues if you listen to some of the debates, speeches and interviews of members of Congress who supposedly represent this very frustrated and resentful conservative electorate these days. .....it all went up in smoke as 'certain' foolish folks were just too obviously greedy and complacent, and the conservatives found themselves being guilty of some of the very sins they railed against.. (overspending, moral turpitude, etc...)"

GfS: I used an analogy, during the 'elections', which validation comes everyday, both in the 'news' talk shows, and in here. It boils down to the 'right' wing and the 'left' wing, are on the same bird! You get into a ring with a boxer. HE is your opponent. He comes at you with a right, a left, a left and another right....but the boxer is still your opponent. Once you're watching out for the 'right hook' he nails you with the 'left', and vice-versa...IT'S Still the same boxer....then Bill writes:...

"....Now, they have a president who is not only a Democrat, but a well-spoken LEADER-type who is actually doing things. Conservatives can't really point at basic wrongness in Obama's approach, so they are dragging their feet in frustration, and trying to derail almost every bit of significant legislation! (They sure thought THEY had the right to pass stuff when THEY had a majority!)"

GfS: Regardless of who was supposed to be REPRESENTING US, both sides, in government ruled against the WILL of the PEOPLE! As unpopular as Nixon was, when the support of the people turned away from being in favor of the Vietnam war, he did pull out. Clinton, seemed to, at least 'adjust' when the will of popular opinion swung.
the rest he did in secret, or by shenanigans(NAFTA vote, for one, the housing-banking thing was another). Both have hurt this country. Bush's war, was one. Hillary even voted for it!
So it is somewhat lopsided to say it was/is one, more than the other. Most of the time, they(both) are selling us on a 'position' that in everyday life, nobody really cares about...unless we HAVE to think about it!

It is to their advantage, that the citizens are polarized about all this!!..and frankly BOTH of them SUCK!

I think the best thing that we can do, is develop our families, not depend on the government, pursue the things you want to do, and develop your talents!!! Let your talents speak your heart, to let others know, that inside, we are just like each other...and not by governmental decree!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 10 - 07:37 AM

Does any one know what percentage of the SEIU is composed of illegal aliens, and if it is a large number, why would they have a voice in American policy?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 10 - 07:52 AM

Name one rightie who has been killed by the left... Just one!!! no one can, becaasue it hasn't happened...

Thin ice Bobert. Or maybe the US is too far away to remember Germany's RAF.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 10 - 09:32 AM

I'm talkin' about in my life time here in the US, Peter, which spans purdy much the entire post-war (WW II) period... That's where the troubles have played out... The right wing came outta the FDR yearas with blind hatred... They hated the fact that FDR, in essence, put down some rules and tried to creat a society where people had some level of security in exchange for their labors... Horrors!!!

Ever since, these bling hatred of the New Deal have been passed down thru several generations and ***BIG Prize*** has alsways been the dismantling of the New Deal... BTW, the dismantling began with Ronald Reagan and over the last 30 years Boss Hog has never had it so good... Yep, he's seen a massive redistribution of wealth to himslef and his rightie buddies at the expense of the working/middle class... The average working man has made no real progress since 1982 in terms or real wages (indexed)...

Also during this post-war period we have seen the right react very badly to the Civil Rights Act which they now say shouldn't prevent a Woolworth's from allowing balck people to sit and be served at the lunch counter... We have seen the right kill off the very best and brightest of the lefts leaders... We have seen the right kill doctors... We have had to put up with their borish, bullying domestic terrorism... The planned disruption at the town meetings this past August being case in point...

So, yeah... There is polorization but the behaviors between the left and right in these times is a world apart... The left has used arguments... The right has used terrorism...

Now we have the right trying to paint the left/Obama as Nazis... This is what psycologists refer to as "projectionism"... The left ain't the side that is responsible for the holocost that George Bush ordered up in Iraq... The left didn't hire goons to try to harrass and terrorize poll workers in the Florida recount... The left hasn't stolen elections... No, what we have is a major case of the rigth g projecting its bad beahvior onto people who, frankly, understand what Martin Luther King was teaching...

That's the way it is and the left owes no one any apologies here and shouldn't allow the ***BIGASS LIE*** about bad behavior on both side to be uttered without challenging it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 May 10 - 09:44 AM

I know B. And I would think along the same lines as yourself. A statement like that has the potential to come back at you and bite you though.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 10 - 10:00 AM

Well put, Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 10 - 10:45 AM

I think the best thing that we can do, is develop our families, not depend on the government, pursue the things you want to do, and develop your talents!!! Let your talents speak your heart, to let others know, that inside, we are just like each other...and not by governmental decree!!

GfS

I celebrate seeing a proposition from GfS with which I profoundly agree.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 10 - 10:58 AM

'Democrats, civil rights leaders, and a wave of commentators have gotten hoarse screaming at the tea party leaders to speak out against the party's unabashed bigots and the displays of racial hate. The pleas have fallen on deaf ears the tea party top. The simple reason is that it would cut its throat if it denounced its racists and racism, and really meant it. The shouts, taunts, spitting, catcalls, joker posters, N word slurs, Confederate and Texas Lone Star flag waving by tea party activists is and has been an indispensable political necessity for the movement.

"Just as Chris Hightower about that. Paul for sure didn't."

I Couldn't Believe it - but It's True

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 May 10 - 11:29 AM

Why thank you Amos!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:09 AM

The SEIU is a lot more dangerous than Rand Paul.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 May 10 - 09:37 AM

President Andrew Jackson also hated and distrusted the central bank.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 May 10 - 10:51 AM

GfS said in part: "...both sides, in government ruled against the WILL of the PEOPLE!"

1)That would have to be documented VERY carefully instead of just rolled out as a slogan by someone who treats ANY government as a nuisance.

2) This "will of the people" phrase is a bit overused and misunderstood as a guide to how elected officials should make decisions.
Of course our elected representatives should take into account, as best they can, the opinions of those who elected them, but not just blindly. They were also elected because they were trusted to study situations, in this full-time job, and understand better than the average voter what is needed and what is best for not only THEIR constituents, but for the country as a whole.
   There are areas in which they SHOULD vote mostly as the "will of the people" dictates, but there are also areas where "the people" have little idea what the situation is and what consequences might be.
   It is possible for the hoi polloi to have a collective opinion that is uninformed, prejudiced or just plain dangerous & wrong. Should a member of Congress vote to bomb Iran, just because he get a lot of letters asking him to?
If the elected official(s) turn out to be dumb, unresponsive...and in the pay of some lobby, we have recourse at the next election.

Sadly, too many government officials, both elected and appointed, forget...or ignore... a sane balance between paying attention to the populace and using their own best judgment.....but I'll tell you, *I* would rather struggle to keep THIS system patched and operating than to adopt some Libertarian or anarchist system that operates on some idea of 'controlled mob rule'. I do not want this country to even come close to having hot-headed "militias" controlling things.

We DO have rules, procedures and institutions set up to deal with abuses...even abuses BY such things like the SEIU, **if** that is shown to be an abuse.

Government will ALWAYS be frustrating and need tweaking & improvement, but 'society' in this era would fall apart without it.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 10 - 10:57 AM

Obstructionism is ugly stuff; hateful rhetorical noise is ugly stuff. Boorish assholery is a quite succinct summation of the worst the right wiong has to offer.

But Q, this is not a label being applied to "conservatives" in the generic sense--those who believe in fiscal prudence, gradual improvement, an emphasis on individual and state rights. This is unfortunately being applied to the vandals and boors that the conservatives (under the neoconservative rubric) have activated and made their own.

This shift in the meaning of the word conservative is the direct result of the Reagan legacy, the rise of mindlessness, the power-mongering of Bush, Rove, and their clan, and the arrogant petty demagoguery of Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Coulter and their ilk.

While you may not be comfortable with this odor that has been unleashed among the conservative ranks, surely you can take a share of responsibility for the tactics that brought it about.

And if you don't like the redefinition of the once-honorable word "conservative". consider what the jackals of Coulter's camp have done to the once proud label of "liberal", which she has redefined into something close to poltical leprosy.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:01 AM

Tell me, Rig, do you object to unions? I agree that there was a time when unions abused the trust - and monies - held in them but if business had done its part, unions would not have been necessary in the first place.

Today, this new union is securing better wages and working conditions for health care workers, janitors and other occupations that have traditionally lived with low pay, and therefore low respect.

So, again, do you object to unions?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:02 AM

Bill D: "Of course our elected representatives should take into account, as best they can, the opinions of those who elected them, but not just blindly. They were also elected because they were trusted to study situations, in this full-time job, and understand better than the average voter what is needed and what is best for not only THEIR constituents, but for the country as a whole."

GfS:..and all of them swore an oath to defend and uphold the Constitution...yet, when they don't THEY are breaking the law of the land....wouldn't you agree? Both sides do it, and they only thing that differentiates the two major political parties, is which different parts of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they like to ignore, bend, or do away with. Other than that, they are just about the same!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: pdq
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:07 AM

Since Obama was elected, the United States federal government has spent $1.40 for every $1.00 it has taken in, and that includes money that is supposed to be reserved for Social Security. If this crap doesn't stop the United States will cease to be a prosperous country and join Greece (and others) whose economies have failed.

The polls show 70% of the US public supports the Arizona law that attempts to reverse the illegal immigration eplosion. Obama says he will have Eric Holder file an injunction to stop the Arizona law, even though he has yet to read it!

There we have two examples where the current administration is doing "their thing" while flipping off the vast majority of the citizens. That ain't demorcacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:17 AM

Since Obama was elected, the United States federal government has spent $1.40 for every $1.00 it has taken in.....

And the expenditures of the BuShite administration were what? several times more than that for every dollar taken in. (Same with Saint Reagan)
Some people's memories are conveniently selective.

The polls show 70% of the US public supports the Arizona law...

According to Glenn beck & PeeDee, that is...........

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:21 AM

But, PDQ, they know so much better than we do what we need and what is good for us.

At least that is always true for the "Party in Power"- so the next Bush can now do what Obama is doing without fear of being brought to task.

As Obama knows, precedent is everything in the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Amos
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:35 AM

That's pretty rotten rhetoric, PDQ.   Just as a hasty example:

Of this overspending how much went to support Bush's two wars?

How much toimplement the TARP program started under the Bush regime to cure the insane financial destruction wrought by Bush and Reagan fiscal policies?

Your puerile black and white cartoons of reality do not balance and do not show the picture as she is.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:42 AM

To hark back to early questions and prognostications, what would it, in your opinion, have taken to clean up the mess Bush left behind- if a Republican had taken office?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:11 PM

"So, again, do you object to unions?"

             The unions to which I've belonged did very little for the rank and file members, but made sure the union management was very well taken care of. Now that I'm in management--business not union--I see the rank and file members always have to take a smaller parte of the pie, while the people who are supposed to be looking out for them still get their cut. But no, I do not object to unions. I think what we are seeing here is a result of what Reagan did to unions in the 1980's.
             The problem was, he couldn't do anything about public unions, so now public jobs pay more and provide better benefits than private ones, unless you're Lloyd Blankfein.

             I've been given to understand, however, that SEIU has a number of members who are lot legally in the country. That should not be allowed, and that's what makes them dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:15 PM

"...when they don't THEY are breaking the law of the land....wouldn't you agree? Both sides do it, "

Agree to what? That they are, or that they shouldn't? You ask this abstract, generalized question as if there was a simple answer. You also phrase your critique as if YOU were the judge about how to interpret the Constitution. "Both sides" don't do 'it', whatever 'it' may be at the time, in the same way.

   My position, as if it wasn't already obvious, is that "strict constructionist" views in places like the 2nd amendment don't take into account 250 years of change in society. The Constitution is an amazing, well-designed document which has generally served us well, but conservatives are using its vaguer parts to obstruct and cling to 'rights' that the Founders never dreamed of. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but when THIS batch of conservatives...both in congress and on the court, creates and defends rules to favor business at the expense of the public interest, I see "breaking the law of the land" more as 'finding loopholes in the law of the land'....THAT'S what I mean by "both sides don't do it in the same way".

I simply see no value in just ranting on with slogans like "both sides do it" and "less government is better government"....we NEED government, and blanket condemnations do little to get into the roots of the problem(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: pdq
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:21 PM

Although the SEIU has a large part of their membership in the relatively high-paying health care field, they also have a growing contingent drawn from janitors, dishwashers, and other service groups. The SEIU seems to be organizing the Mexican illegals in Las Vegas into a major part of their power base. Note: "International" in their name seems to mean that they are happy to break U.S. laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:21 PM

As usual, pdq, does not cite sources for the outrageous claims made.

If you want to take the time to actually verify, or not, those claims, a good place to start might be HERE.

And, if you want to study several polls, from different sources, one may Click Here. The first one is Fox, but there are several others over a month or so. Some very interesting numbers, esp. the number of folks who just didn't know enough about the AZ law to have an opinion.

Joe, are you going to change the thread titles?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: pdq
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:36 PM

From the assistant-to-the-moderator-ette's own chosen poll:


"Do you favor or oppose requiring people to show documents proving their immigration status if government officials have reasonable cause to ask for them?"

5/18-19/10      Favor         Oppose         Unsure                 
                              84 %         13 %                 2 %                 

"Do you favor or oppose allowing local and state police to detain anyone who cannot prove their immigration status?"

5/18-19/10         Favor         Oppose         Unsure
                         76%       19%             5%

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:49 PM

...so now public jobs pay more and provide better benefits than private ones...

On what planet?

The unions to which I've belonged did very little for the rank and file members

My experience - and that of most of my acquaintances- has been quite the opposite, & were it not for the union folks would have been seriously screwed over.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:09 PM

Cherry-picking is your usual style, pdq; that, and letting others do your research for you. Why don't you start posting your own cites?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:48 PM

"...so now public jobs pay more and provide better benefits than private ones...   'On what planet?'"


             Greg - If public employees aren't doing better than most of the private employees you know, you live in a very different environment than I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:49 PM

In addition, union management who let illegals join a union ought to be treated the same way that employers are treated when they get caught hiring them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's Brownshirts?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 10 - 05:33 PM

Rigs,

Visit a few "Right-to-Work" states (14b- Taft-Hartley Act) and see just how little has changed in the last 60 to 70 years for blue collar workers... I know... I live in one of those states and there are plenty of people working for federal minimum wages doing the exact same work that folks in union states are paid 2 to 3 times as much to do and, at the very least, aren't living in poverty... That's why if you check out the poverty levels in the various states you'll see a direct correlation between 14b states and poverty... Now if you think poverty is okay then maybe we can have that discussion...

B~