BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)

Subject: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

Some posters in the Israeli atrocity thread and some media commentators
have claimed that the reactions to Israel's actions re. the "humanitarian" flotilla
are disproportonate to the reactions elicited by the atrocities perpetrated by others.

To test this premise I am inviting Mudcatters to post examples of atrocities committed
by countries and organisations other than Israel so that they can be discussed,
analysed and subjected to our collective righteous indignation.

The posting activity to this thread vis a vis the Israeli atrocity thread should be a
good indicator of the accuracy of the premise.

To start things off, here is a video of Hamas, the democratically elected government
of Gaza, uninvited, crashing a wedding party and showing their disapproval of the
celebrations taking place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_OGhj43GAE&feature=fvw

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:12 PM

You won't get many takers, I'm afraid. Just as when I asked Mudcatters to give examples of sources of evil other than organized religion and world capitalism.

A deafening silence ensued.

Mudcatters having tunnel vision?   Perish the thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:17 PM

Well there was the public hanging of the seven year old "spy" in Afghanistan by the Taliban, the other day.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:18 PM

The Democratic Republic of Congo has been an atrocity since it was acquired by King Leopold of Belgium as his personal fiefdom.

The Russians have managed to turn a secular independence movement in Chechenya into an Islamist terrorist campaign.

Japan is building up trouble for the future by buying Cambodia over the heads of the people who happen to live there.

(Hamas were a democratically elected government by the way)

Tibet/ China. Nothing more needed.

Or several other parts of the Chinese empire they wish.

The US doesn't own Diego Garcia. It is held illegally in defiance of a ruling of the British High Court. However, we colonials haven't yet resorted to direct action to free it.

Most of the ex-Soviet -stans are human rights nightmares. When they aren't perpetuated by the Putin regime, they are US supported.

But Israel is the biggest problem because:

- it proclaims itself as a religious state
- it's an apartheid regime
- it stops any progress over peace in the Middle East
- and consequently exposes all of us to the actions of people who oppose Israel *
- it has concealed WMD
- it occupies land seized from neighbouring countries
- it is in open defiance of more than two UN resolutions
- it destroys the economies of the land it occupies

If the world gave the same attention to Chinese actions in Tibet that it gave to Iraq's far more benign actions in Kuwait, I for one would be pleased. But all US leaders have been in thrall to China, mostly because they could sink your economy overnight if they wanted, so they don't object to anything- not even North Korea (China's bit of fun).

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:26 PM

OK a start. (Ignore the internal stuff at the start). There are many detailed stories here....too many to elaborate on :
http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:29 PM

One difference is that there are unlikely to too be many people defending the atrocities carried out by other regimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:31 PM

Just to note....my post listed interventions in sovern nations....many may be justified and some likely less so (as with a few other countries, for example Russia, Japan and China).

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:35 PM

Another perspective on some of the above (right or wrong):
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa02.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:43 PM

There's a whole bunch of them in here..

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/6/obama_has_kept_the_machine_set

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:44 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-04-19/memo-to-america-stop-murdering-my-people/full/

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:46 PM

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/iraq-the-womens-story/

I'll have a lot more later.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:50 PM

Israel "stops any progress...."

There are other actors wearing black hats.

Tunnel vision.

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:53 PM

A thread has been running at the same time to this one called "Saddest News Article" to which I have posted my views in an extremely uncompromising way, on the subject of an event which I view as an atrocity.

There was noone taking up an opposing stance for more than a short while, so the thread is somewhere near the bottom of the pile.

It was of interest to me because it was about an atrocity committed in my name - by the allies - by the good guys - by us - and paid for using 'our' money.

It is important to me to make it clear that when such atrocities are commited, it is not with my consent or support and that I do not view them as advancing the democratic cayse as they purport to do.


I expect better from 'my team'.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 07:56 PM

"Well there was the public hanging of the seven year old "spy" in Afghanistan by the Taliban, the other day."

This was mentioned in the Flotilla thread.


I think it a horrendous crime.


Does anyone disagree? ....



... no? .....




noone defending it? ....




... so we all agree ....

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

I disagree that Israel is the biggest problem. The United States is the biggest problem. Israel is second.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:11 PM

Bobad, the actions of the militants in the video you have provided are reprehensible.

They clearly atteck a civilian wedding and engage the guests in a horrendous unjustifiable way.

I would love to know more about them so I can be better informed about the actual incidents.

For example, when did this happen, where, how many people died and who claimed responsibility?

Are you able to relate these videos to corresponding reports in the media or elsewhere?

Does anyone disagree that those images are shocking?

Does anyone want to try and justify that violence?

Well till they do bobad, why don't you keep the thread alive by providing more info.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:12 PM

`One difference is that there are unlikely to too be many people defending the atrocities carried out by other regimes.`



Another difference is that some atrosities seem to weigh more on people`s minds than others. Strange, that.

Good thread. bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:23 PM

999

To have a debate, you need someone to debate with.



PS, I thought this thread was about an atrocity that Bobad was appalled and saddened by ...

... don't tell me that the atrocity he posted is only a vehicle through which he is makng another point ...

... is that why he has asked for multiple posts of various atrocities to be posted?


... surely not ... as that would trivialize the atrocities in question and turn them into political fodder ...



Come on Bobad - if you're so appalled by this atrocity, stick to the point and tell us more about it and what we can do about it ...


My Government already condemns them so no need to write to them or inform them ...

... hmm ... my tax dollars don't go to them ...

... hmmm ...

.. there is already a blockade on Gaza ....

so where next?

Justify 999's comment that this is a "good thread"

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:33 PM

Lox, those you refer to as militants in the video are described as being members of Hamas, the democratically elected rulers of Gaza, by the narrator.

As you didn't seem to have much difficulty keeping the Israeli atrocity
thread alive with your insights and fact finding, I suggest that you do the research into this atrocity and and post links to the media's reports about it. As for myself, I will be scouring the internet looking for other atrocities for you to denounce.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:49 PM

Lox, you know him not at all. He IS concerned with other atrocities. Some other folks `round here would do well to speak to that issue. Yes, the Israelis have fucked up. So too have many other `groups`, but the others seldom draw the fire drawn by Israelis. That`s his point, and you just spoke to it. When Hamas is nailed to the wall, I hope you`ll be helping with a hammer--claw if you wish. That also works both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: bobad
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 08:50 PM

Here is another atrocity which, thankfully, has a happy ending due to the actions of those who were it's target.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPU4UN03t7E

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:01 PM

It's a great thread, Lox. I consider it a great opportunity and I plan to utterly wear it out. bobad might even get tired of me posting to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:03 PM

Turkey and it's atrocities towards the Kurds .... Turkey, one of the countries now condeming Israel over its's attack on the flotilla .. watch this clip

Turkey ... state terror

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:05 PM

Iraq`s sarin gas attack on the Kurds. Possibly--best estimates I`ve read--10,000 dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: number 6
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:09 PM

Turkish Democracy: Attack on unarmed Kurdish Civilians

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:11 PM

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2766505

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/world/asia/05afghan.html?ref=world

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:14 PM

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25107.htm


( ...note to Lox - having said what I did above, however, I don't anticipate that bobad will actually look inside any of my links)

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:15 PM

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/04/24/our-afghan-victims-have-faces/

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:17 PM

http://www.thenation.com/article/disposable-soldiers

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:18 PM

http://www.thenation.com/article/living-tip-spear

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:19 PM

"As you didn't seem to have much difficulty keeping the Israeli atrocity
thread alive with your insights and fact finding,"

1. I was engaged in a debate with people who disagreed with me.

Is there anyone here who disagrees with you?


2. I have a vested interest in how Israel acts as My government supports the Israeli Government in my name.

3. I have a vested interest in how Israel acts as I pay texes which go towards providing the weapons used by The IDF.

4. I initiated the first thread about the flotilla as I actually cared about that subject (for the reasons given above) - hence it was my responsibility to provide information relating to it.



This is your thread Bobad - if you are reporting on an atrocity you care about then do so.


It looks like all you are going to do is post lots of atrocities that you don't care about.


PS "Lox, those you refer to as militants in the video are described as being members of Hamas, the democratically elected rulers of Gaza, by the narrator."

Do you know who the narrator is?


Because you may be interested to know that when I last clicked on the link I found this message in place of the Video.

"This video has been removed due to terms of use violation."

I wonder what that says about the reliability of the Narrator.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:22 PM

British interventions:
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2208028064&topic=9765

There are many soviet examples, here is one:

Soviet incursion In Afghanistan 1979 to 1989
"The number of Afghans killed - among the regime, mojahedin, and noncombatants - was estimated between 1 and 1.5 million, with tens of thousands of others crippled".


http://www.answers.com/topic/soviet-war-in-afghanistan

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:27 PM

Carol,

I couldn't disagree with you more strongly.

I see no respect for those hurt in any of these atrocities in this thread.

I see video's being thrown around and used as political weapons in a free for all of self righteous pointless inertia.

What can possibly be gained from this?

This thread, if it is to be a competition of gory videos, whether as initiated by bobad or as continued by you or anyone else, is a grubby and degrading blight on the landscape of the mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:34 PM

"Here is another atrocity which, thankfully, has a happy ending due to the actions of those who were it's target."

There is nothing happy about this video.

There is also nothing current about this video.

I've seen it on the net before a long time ago.

Perhaps we should provide links to the two Bloody sundays in Ireland.

How about the Amritsar Massacre?

Or the murders in Sharpeville?


Anyone who continues to post to this thread should be deeply ashamed of themselves for exploiting the fear and suffering of others to promote their sense of self righteousness.



I posted in support of the flotilla because I believe that it is the first ting that has happened in the history of the Israel/Palestine situation that might help bring about an end to the stalemate.

If you want to know how then start another thread.


Till then, All of you, have another look at those videos and look at the fact that they have real people in them.

I am disgusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6CNd2fxNUA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqfznE3BAvw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7RNbYObjwk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lW31YlDlNm0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfpDOohpCCA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pqFX_Vx6Rs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkglAYl4KAs&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xfsGT66Dbw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqamAzs-NR4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebp2Ks1aL14&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: Lox
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:44 PM

Here's one


Am I playng the game right?



How about this?



Loads of pics here ... phwoooaaarrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Lets see, Attila the Hun, Caesar, Hitler, ... we could really have an orgy of atrocities her couldn't we ...


Come on Bobad ... Give it to us Baby!

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:45 PM

I understand what you're saying, Lox, and I notice that you and I tend to confine our criticism to atrocities over which we personally bear some responsibility, while bobad and some others on the thread only want to point fingers at others while ignoring the atrocities over which they bear some responsibility, and I understand the hypocrisy of that. But... this thread gives me an opportunity to post some things that I wanted to post anyway. I think they are things that should be seen. I don't expect any hypocrites to look at them, but other people might.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QolkuDjm8fM&feature=fvw

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:49 PM

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/world/8-weeks-on-Nato-admits.6102256.jp

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:51 PM

http://chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1949-an-unaccustomed-truth-american-commander-admits-afghan-atrocities.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:52 PM

http://economycollapse.blogspot.com/2010/02/haiti-oil-gold-silver-us-occupation.html

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:56 PM

I don't know whether or not I bear any personal responsibility for this, but these people deserve a voice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4tuTFZ3wXQ

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 09:59 PM

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:04 PM

Well, one more for now...

http://www.examiner.com/x-20536-Dallas-Progressive-Examiner~y2010m1d17-More-details-on-Americans-execution-of-handcuffed-Afghan-children

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 10:46 PM

I unfortunately saw a picture of this young man's face after it was destroyed. It was staring at me on my Facebook page after one of my of my Facebook friends posted it to his feed. It was very upsetting. I bear some responsibility for this one because my tax dollars are being used to prop up the dictatorial regime of the president of this country...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5im-Kw1VwkViBjtBkORFz0olsP-uAD9G9ACE80

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jun 10 - 11:06 PM

Maybe I'd better give it a rest for now. Don't want anyone accusing me of being "obsessed".

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:08 AM

Belgians in the Congo.

Americans propping up the Pinochet regime.

Dutch East Indies Company treatment of East Indies natives.

Early American settlers sending smallpox-infected blankets to Native American tribes.

The Vikings terrorizing the British Isles

The Romans salting the fields outside Carthage.

Various British massacres in India during the Raj.

The burning of the library at Alexandria.

Feeding Christians to the lions in the Roman arenas.

The Shoah.

Masada.

The Israelite conquest of Canaan as portrayed in the Biblical book of Joshua.

The Spanish Inquisition.

The 30 Years' War.

Kit Carson's assault on the Navajo.

The Trail of Tears.

Invasion of Poland, 1939.

The Somme.

Verdun.

The Gulags.

The Russian Revolution.

The French Revolution.

"Decimation" as practiced by the Romans.

The Fourth Crusade.

All the other Crusades.

Expulsion of the Jews from Spain, Gypsies from Britain, etc.

Treatment of native Peruvians by Pizarro.

Treatment of native Alaskans by Russians.

Battle of Kosovo (1448).

Invasion of England , 1066.

Burning of Moscow, 1812.

Attempted destruction of the Nez Pierce.

Kent State.

Sinking of the Lusitania.

The reign of Bloody Mary.

Cambodia's killing fields.

Tienanmen Square.

My Lai massacre.

Boxer Rebellion.

Black Hole of Calcutta.

Cancelling of "Firefly".

Using the sufferings of others to score cheap rhetorical points.

Subject: RE: BS: Atrocities (Other Than Israeli)
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jun 10 - 02:08 AM

50.