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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Nov 11 - 03:26 AM You have accused the Travelling community of being "over-represented" in a crime - that has cultural significance as did your branding Pakistanis as cultural perverts, the only difference being that you have yet to develop your attack on Travellers. I'm sure you'd have got round to it if the thread hadn't been closed, you usually do. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Nov 11 - 03:04 AM what cultural significance to you attach to that to that? None Jim. It was just the main news story at that time. Your post was deleted because you were not logged in. The other deleted posts were all by a nasty troll using the names of true Guests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Nov 11 - 02:58 AM It seems that a number of postings have been removed here - a little like arguing with one hand tied behind your back. What do you suggest is "happening here" - yet another ethnic community with a "cultural implant"? There really is no end to it with you, is there? What is "happening here" is that a group of around 8 Travellers out of a population of 300,000 have been arrested and charged with a crime - what cultural significance to you attach to that to that? 'Coincidentally', the case surfaced around the time when one of the most expensive and controversial evictions of all times was about to take place and equally coincidentally, we have heard virtually nothing in the press or the media about the case now that the Dale Farm eviction has been carried out. You have already attempted to brand one ethnic community as potential perverts because of their culture - are you really going to repeat the exercise with another? You've made a start with your "over-representation" and you are already ignoring the points being made of common examples of 'slavery' in Britain today; I suppose the next step is to find an "impeccable expert" to blame for the "over-representation" statement so you can claim it was not your opinion but that of an someone you trust completely because you have no knowlege of the subject yourself!! Get help!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Nov 11 - 01:22 PM I doubt that is really Bluesman. No-one could read that old post of mine and describe it as racist Jim. You make yourself ridiculous by doing so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Nov 11 - 03:59 AM The "offending" slavery post! Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 12 Sep 11 - 09:16 AM Jim, I am with you in deploring the use of pejorative names for this or other minorities. Bluesman, your abusive language makes decent people unwilling to offer their views. Jim, Bluesman's nastiness aside, this is a serious issue that members will naturally want to discuss. It is not just this case, but also the Hampshire and Gloucestershire cases since March this year. I hesitate to use the term "over-representation" but something is going on here. What do you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Nov 11 - 03:57 AM Bullshit Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Nov 11 - 03:34 AM "You have viciosly smeared Pakistani immigrants in an attempt to paint them as cultural lepers." No. I have not. "You have attempted the present the evils of a bloody conflict going back centuries on one side of that conflict in spite of all the evidence that has been put before you." No. I have not. "You are now claiming the crime of slavery to be "over-represented" in the Travelling community on the basis of the alleged behaviour of eight members of one family out of a population of 300,000" No. I am not. The over-representation is only in the convictions under the anti-slavery legislation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Nov 11 - 03:24 AM I suppose you are to be congratulated in a perverse sort of way; I do not think I have ever come across anybody prepared to denigrate and demonise whole culture to the length you have on this forum You have viciosly smeared Pakistani immigrants in an attempt to paint them as cultural lepers. You have attempted the present the evils of a bloody conflict going back centuries on one side of that conflict in spite of all the evidence that has been put before you. You are now claiming the crime of slavery to be "over-represented" in the Travelling community on the basis of the alleged behaviour of eight members of one family out of a population of 300,000 You really are a racist piece of work. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Nov 11 - 04:44 PM If you say you do not want all the parades banned, then I accept that of course, but you can see how the misunderstanding came about. You have put my mind at rest, as I have put yours at rest. Let's start again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Nov 11 - 04:33 PM Please put up where I have ever condemned "harmless summer parades" - I don't give a toss about people parading annually; They are as 'traditional' as bull-baiting and public hanging once were, because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year, and they do just that - provoke. While they are allowed to continue, Your post neatly sidesteps the historical reasons for these marches taking place, the effect they have had and are continuing to have on the Catholic minority, and the cost of allowing them to go ahead in their present form, both in providing policing and in the risk they bring to life and the wellbeing of the communities affected. They are weapons of sectarianism DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THE ABUSE RISING FROM THE MARCHES, AS QUOTED ABOVE, IS HARMLESS FUN, AND DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THESE MARCHES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE AS THEY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Nov 11 - 03:30 PM I have made no racist attacks on Travellers Jim. We were discussing the Traveller slavery cases were we not? Eight Travellers and no non-Travellers were charged. That was the situation. All the other stuff you have had explained to you over and over. I say now, so you know where I stand, no ethnic group is predisposed to any criminality, and, like any sane human, I deplore any and all massacres. If you have really misunderstood any of my posts, your mind can be at rest now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Nov 11 - 02:42 PM And BTW I suppose you are aware that with one single bound you are out of your racist closet This racist attack on Travellers based on the (possible) behaviour of 8 Travellers (1 single family) is every bit as serious as your claiming that all Pakistani males are culturally implanted with having sex with underage girls. Please look forward to having it quoted at you many times in the future Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Nov 11 - 01:06 PM "I was not talking about earlier decades, but today's dissidents." Yesterdays Loyalist dissidents have turned their attention to torching immigrants houses nowadays - several attacks over the last couple of years. " I was not talking about earlier decades, but today's dissidents." Belfast rioters - Loyalists; persecutors of children at Holy Cross School, Loyalists - marchers returning through banned areas to provoke Catholic residents - Loyalists. "You have put up screenfuls of condemnation of the harmless summer parades" Please put up where I have ever condemned "harmless summer parades" - I don't give a toss about people parading annually; I object to the massive intimidating and inflamatory parades which are intended to cause trouble and more often than not manage to do so. You have lied consistently on this forum, about what I have said and about what you have said. You have claimed that you never made your cultural implant statement, and when it was presented to you, you then claimed that you were quoting somebody else (two different versions in one go) - yet you have been totally unable to produce one single quote of anybody implicating all male Pakistanis in 'cultural paedophelia' You have claimed that there have been "no massacres" by the Israelis, even though the evidence has been placed before you. You are denying that you defended Bluesman's fascist outburst against travellers by saying he had a right to express his opinion. "Every accusation a lie, except that Travellers" BTW - eight Travellers have been charged - out of a population of 300,000 -that just about sums up your "over-representation" - doesn't even account for one side of one street in Chelsea where the well-to-do ship in their au-pairs from abroad, pay them less than subsitence wages, don't allow them out, beat (and occasionally rape) them, threatening to turn them in as illegals if they don't do as they're told. You are a liar - what a pity (for you) that you chose to put your lies in writing. Perhaps you might put up your example of my calling for the banning of peaceful marches on the same message as you provide your source for the cultural implants - just trying to save you time. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Nov 11 - 11:02 AM Jim, you are obsessed with the past. I was not talking about earlier decades, but today's dissidents. Likewise the parades of recent years. You have put up screenfuls of condemnation of the harmless summer parades, but not a word against sectarian, murderous dissidents. I suspect sectarian prejudice Jim. open support to Orange bigotry, Israeli war criminals and racists (including a fascist anti-Travellers who you claimed was only exercising his right to free speech - and throwing in your own offering that Travellers were "over-represented" in keeping slaves). You have also written off the male population of an entire racial/cultural community as potential perverst due to their culture. Every accusation a lie, except that Travellers, for whatever reason, are the only people yet been charged under the new legislation. Why can we never discuss one issue at a time Jim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Nov 11 - 09:00 AM "You express so much outrage about the Protestant summer parades, but never any criticism of the murderous activities of the dissidents." which particular group of dissidents - the ones who walked into a pub in haloween masks, shouted "trick or treat" and and mowed down the drinkers because they were catholics, or the ones who set a house on fire burning three young brothers to death, or more recently, the ones who forced schoolchildren to run a gauntlet through a "Protestant" road on their way to school. There are two sides to the dissidence - unlike you, I don't bat for either side - search for "a plague on both your houses" I've said it often enough. The 20/30 years long 'troubles' started following a civil rights march being directed by the RUC through a screaming mob of stone throwing loyalist - every death that followed can be directly traced back to that event. Before you accuse anybody of double standards just remember that you have given your open support to Orange bigotry, Israeli war criminals and racists (including a fascist anti-Travellers who you claimed was only exercising his right to free speech - and throwing in your own offering that Travellers were "over-represented" in keeping slaves). You have also written off the male population of an entire racial/cultural community as potential perverst due to their culture. "even they have been peaceful in recent years." As long as you don't count the rioting leading up to and following the parades - are you really claiming that this didn't happen?? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 07 Nov 11 - 04:14 AM Do Sinn Fein not visit either Jim? They say only a handful of parades are even contentious, and even they have been peaceful in recent years. You express so much outrage about the Protestant summer parades, but never any criticism of the murderous activities of the dissidents. Double standards? Prejudice? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 07 Nov 11 - 02:54 AM "Ban Christmas! " Pratt! You don't come to Ireland (certainly not the South nor the trouble centres); you get your knowledge (sic) from selective dips into the net; and you lend your support to the religious/political fanatics and their triumphalistic marches that cause violence every year at the same time of year, so regular and predictable you could set your clocks by them ("The Glorious 12th already - where's me riot gear") Violence here is once more on the increase despite your claims that it is a thing of the past - if it continues to grow it stands to wreck any moves towards peace and reconciliation. The Derry/Belfast and a few other marches provoke violence - they always have and they always will while they take place in the violently aggressive manner that they do (and that you apparently support by claiming in your selective ignorance that violence is a thing of the past) One minute you're saying the riots aren't taking place, the next, you've backpedalled and tell us they are - you can't even decide which particular line to peddle. After the troubles of the 70s and 80s the people of the whole of Ireland became shell-shocked - all they wanted was peace - almost at any price. That generation is being replaced by one that never experienced the bombing and the killing, and, if the politicians don't sort out the fanatics and their thuggish armchair eggers-on (like you) the consequences of the annual triumphalism will be that the generation coming up will will pay the price, - again, just as our generation paid, for the fanatics and their armchair thugs. Go read a book if you can't get some understanding any other way. As I said - pratt! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 03:34 PM Of course rioting sometimes happens. And every riot is preceded by Christmas. And Christmas also follows every single riot. Ban Christmas! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 11 - 03:24 PM "By who?" The police, eye-witnesses and the press all attributed the rioting leading up to the event to Loyalists prepering for the march - that's who. The first press reports in Britain described them as Loyalist rioters - they were sectarian riots preceding the 'peaceful day out'.. These riots have always been provocative and insulting towars the Catholic minority, that is the reason for them taking place. Members of my family had their home burnd down and were driven out of Derry one 'Glorious Twelfth' over half a century ago - I mentioned two books (one by a Jewish American and one published by (Thames Television as a follow up to their 4 part series of documentaries 'The Troubles' (both obviously highly biased, no doubt) - go read them - and weep your customary crocodile tears. You haven't replied, but it is fairly obvious that you have never witnessed one of these blood-lettings; I suggest you book your ticket for next years performance now. "Rioting sometimes happens." But you just claimed it didn't happen - make up your mind (or wasn't that a contradiction either). DtG If you're trying to say "give peace a chance" as you did so eloquently earlier - 90 years ago a 'temporary' peace treaty was enforced under threat of war in order to paartition Ireland "temporarily". Ninety years later that "temporary" peace treaty is still in place and partitioning still exists, and we are still counting the bodies - many thousands over the last few decades. I am delighted that progress, is being made, albeit extremely slowly. One of the first requirements, it seems to me, is to recognise what these marches are - acts of sectarian provocation - and outlaw them when they prove to be this. Failure to do this will mean our children's childrens children will still be mopping up the blood ninety years from now. Armchair thugs like Keith (our own tame Paisley soundalike) is typical of the mentality that has kept this conflict festering - and they are still burying the dead in continuing troubles he claims to be long over. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM "the Belfast Riots" were acknowleged as being caused by the provocative nature of the marches " By who? Rioting sometimes happens. It has not happened on a parade day for years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Nov 11 - 01:33 PM Damn. It didn't work... DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 11 - 01:10 PM "identify those involved in the trouble." You are distorting your "evidence" The reprts refer to the day of the march - I pointed out that "the worst trouble for many years" occorred for at least three days before the march and at least a week after - identified by the police as being provoked by Loyalists. The prohibitavely priced policing prevented trouble on the day - but the rioting "referred to in the press as "the Belfast Riots" were acknowleged as being caused by the provocative nature of the marches - I ask again - have you ever been to a Belfast, Derry, Liverpool or Glasgow parade - I grew up with them. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 12:57 PM The Parades thread is still open Jim. Why have you raised it here? Is it worth repeating exactly the discussion we have already had? Why do you keep making these backward leaps in every thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 12:53 PM Date: 14 Jul 11 - 05:39 AM Jim, The Irish Times piece stands against your claim, "the fact that the sectarian and aggressive nature of the larger marches" From BBC NI news site. Chief Insp Burrows said the police would be using video footage to identify those involved in the trouble. "The parade went very well, the return parade went very well. The violence that we saw was less than we saw in Belfast, less than we have seen in years gone by but it is still unacceptable that people are throwing petrol bombs at police, damaging their own communities and hijacking vehicles. "I'm pleased that we made 12 arrests, I'm pleased that we got community co-operation and we have plenty of CCTV evidence Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness said the rioters should think of the consequences of their actions. Mr Robinson said: "As a government we are working together to ensure that Northern Ireland prospers and grows in strength. "It is saddening to see Ulster in the international news for all the wrong reasons. "Those involved in Tuesday night's violence and rioting provide nothing to society. Those manipulating the violence will not win." Mr McGuinness said: "I visited Ardoyne on Monday and met with local people, community and church leaders. "They made it very clear to me that they did not want to see any violence in their community over the Twelfth parade. "It is disappointing that a small number of people chose to ignore their demand and instead went about attacking the police and damaging the local community." Police have said children as young as 10 were involved in rioting in Londonderry on Tuesday night. Twelve people, including one woman, were arrested after petrol bombs and bricks were thrown at police. Trouble broke out in the Bogside and Fahan Street areas, in Gobnascale and Ardmore in the Waterside, and in Strabane and Castlederg. A 14-year old was among those arrested on suspicion of riotous behaviour. A crate of petrol bombs was recovered in Fahan Street. Chief Inspector, Jon Burrows, said children were involved in the rioting. "I saw some very, very young children in the Bogside throwing stones at police. Children under 10," he said. "That was running towards midnight. Still children under 10 years of age throwing stones at police and I have to say some adults were present and not intervening. That's very, very sad." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 12:45 PM Jim, list all the parades where there was any problem during the parade in recent years. I can not remember any at all. Trouble sometimes happens in parts of NI, but you are wrong to link it to parades |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 11 - 12:41 PM That "handful" are in the cities, particularly in Derry and Balfast and cause serious rioting - making your description of "They all passed of without problems" as utterly nonsensical as your "there were no massacres" on the Palestine site. Not only did they cause serious damage this year in Belfast nf threaten lives of those in the area (a gun was fired) but the cost of policing them has become prohibitive. This years riots were said to have been the most serious for many years You are lying when you say that they passed off peacefully, we have discusssed this and you actually blamed children for last years trouble. The number of troublesome riots maybe small, but they are the major ones, they are provocatively sectarian (and always have been). Nobody has proposed banning all of them but the deliberately provocative ones have to be cutailed or banned - that is the policy of Sinn Fein - look it up. Just like chemical weapons, by denying the trouble these viciously provocative parades cause, you are supporting the viciousness they bring about. No surprise there Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 12:41 PM GUEST,Keith A no cookie reset - PM Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:55 AM Even less trouble this year than last, thank goodness. Fewer rioters and many of them early teens or even younger. Here is how The Irish Times saw the most contentious parade in Belfast. IT WAS party time yesterday for the unionist community in Belfast as thousands thronged the city centre streets to watch the annual Orange Order parade. On what was very much a family day out for most of the crowd, people lined the main route from early morning in rows three and four deep, waving Union Jack and Ulster flags. Countless stalls selling all sorts of memorabilia from hats and scarves to inflatable Disney character balloons added to the carnival atmosphere. Two particularly popular items appeared to be children's batons and miniature marching drums, leading to more than one spectator being struck unawares by a flying baton, thrown from the hand of an overexcited youngster practising for his big moment in the parade. In contrast to the bonfire night on Monday, during which Tricolours were burned in many parts of the city, the atmosphere yesterday morning was much more positive, one mostly of celebration of the Ulster unionist culture. "It's the best day of our lives, something that we look forward to all year," said Angela Barr, who had secured a good roadside spot with her partner and two young sons. Ms Barr and her family arrived an hour early as had thousands more who were unfolding deck chairs and unpacking lunches long before the march was due to pass. It seemed odd to see so many, so early after bonfire night, traditionally a big social event in Northern Ireland that stretches into the early morning. Motivation to leave home in good time was apparently easy to find, however, as the importance of getting the right spot along the parade route was quickly explained. "We have been 50 years coming to the same spot," said a member of the Hanvey family from Newtownabbey, six miles outside of Belfast. They described the Twelfth as their St Patrick's Day, a community day out that gives them a chance to celebrate their culture and history. The parade itself maintained that family feel with men, women and children of all ages marching the seven-mile route while waving to neighbours in the crowd. Aside from the loyal Orange lodges that always form the iconic basis of the march, the parade featured countless marching bands from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Canada. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0713/1224300655385.html?via=rel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 12:23 PM Of the thousand of summer parades, only a handful are even contentious. Even those have passed peacefully in recent years. Keith A of Hertford - PM Date: 13 Jul 10 - 11:17 AM Jim, "because giant, provocative marches are allowed to take place throughout the North Eastern counties of Ireland at this time of year," Gerry Kelly, Sinn Fein MLA for N Belfast said, "There are only a handful of Orange Order parades which are contentious. It is time that the Loyal Orders faced up to this reality and entered into dialogue with local residents to resolve these issues." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 11 - 08:51 AM "I very much doubt it is him." Whether it is Peter or not (if it is, Peter is one of the most honest and unbiased people I know) - it appears to be worth a look into. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 11 - 08:17 AM "What had the riots to do with the summer parades Jim, and what makes them "sectarian"? Have you ever seen one of these marches - not in rural Ireland but in Derry, Belfast or even Liverpool or Glasgow - if you had you wouldn't have to ask such a breathtakingly ignorant question The most vivid descriptins of sectarianism come from the Leon Uris book I put up and from 'The Troubles' essays based on the ITV series of the same name. They are sectarian, and even when they are prevented from taking place through Catholic areas (as the organisers demand - see Drumcree) when they end the particpants march unofficially through the areas they have been banned from. They are violent demonstrations of political/religious superiority. Did you know that several lodges demanded that the Loyalists who attended the funeral the Catholic policeman murdered by the IRA be disciplined and expelled? Neanderthal thugs. "My opinions WERE just those of Sinn Fein. I quoted officials' statements." No they weren't - I took my quote from one you put up, more or less as it appeared - do you honestly believe that Sinn Fein would give its support to violently sectarian anti-Catholic demonstrations - they'd last ten minutes in the six counties if they ever came near to doing so. The claim of "self defence" for Bloody Sunday was never withdrawn - it was part of the first wwhitewash enquiry and remained an excuse for the massacre until the Saville report - Saville directly referred to is as being not true - why do so if it had been wiithdrawn. You seem to have dropped your claim that there has been no viollence over the last few years - want me to provide the links about the Belfast riots? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 07:11 AM I know nothing of the book mentioned by "Peter Laban." I very much doubt it is him. The British government foolishly tried to explain BS away. From the famous and brave priest and many other reputable witnesses that spurious claim never stood up and was soon withdrawn. What had the riots to do with the summer parades Jim, and what makes them "sectarian"? My opinions WERE just those of Sinn Fein. I quoted officials' statements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 11 - 06:40 AM "They all passed of without problems , but you want them banned." Three nights of rioting before the marches started this year and intermittent rioting afterwards - all attributed to loyalist extremists. Last years riots you sank as low as to blame children for. "Maudling was 40 years ago!" Bloody Sunday happened 40 years ago Self defence has been given as the cause of the massacre since then right up to the Saville report, which nailed the lie. You said you had never heard of anybody claiming self-defence. You are either totally ignorant of Irish problems or else you lied. "The opinions I expressed about the Parades was the exact same opinion being expressed by Sinn Fein." Sinn Fein said most of the marches were no problem, but the vilolently sectarian ones in Derry and Belfast cause the trouble; "they are the ones that need to cop onto themselves" were the words used. You have claimed (and just repeated) that "They all passed of without problems" - like the non-existent massacres by Israel. Your argument does not begin to approach Sinn Fein's. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 04:52 AM The opinions I expressed about the Parades was the exact same opinion being expressed by Sinn Fein. Where is the prejudice Jim? They all passed of without problems , but you want them banned. You can not bear to see THOSE people harmlessly enjoying their culture. Prejudice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Nov 11 - 04:48 AM Maudling was 40 years ago! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 11 - 04:38 AM "Kevin, I am not aware of anyone claiming Bloody Sunday was self defence." "The Army returned the fire directed at them with aimed shots and inflicted a number of casualties on those who were attacking them with firearms and with bombs" "No contradiction jim.". Are these not contradictions - were not you aware of them, or of the claims that have been made for decades that the British army killed 13 unarmed demonstrators in self-defence - can anybody really be as ignorant as that about Ireland (and spend so long supporting violent sectarian marches by passing them off as pleasant family outings??? As blindly prejudiced here as elsewhere on this forum. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 11 - 07:16 AM Reginald Maudling, British Home Secretary, making a statement to the House of Commons on Monday 31st January 1973 on the events of 'Bloody Sunday': "The Army returned the fire directed at them with aimed shots and inflicted a number of casualties on those who were attacking them with firearms and with bombs". And that claim of self-defence as justifying the massacre was repeated on many occasions for many years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Nov 11 - 07:10 AM And contrary to the lies that are maliciously spread, the Pope is not a Catholic, and bears make use of WCs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Nov 11 - 04:19 AM I was surprised Kevin decided to bring up this subject here, and that he used it as an example of a self defence claim. No contradiction jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Nov 11 - 05:28 PM I hadn't realised that following my last comment on this thread there was no addition for over six months and then another gap of the best part of year before it was poked into life once more. Maybe I should try it again - To all the shitstirrers out there - Why don't you just put a sock in it and, in Lennons words, give peace a chance? Or, maybe better still, from a wonderful man and songwriter from that troubled province - Well there were investigations, Five minutes on the news And the mass card wore a picture of John's face There was outrage; two letters in the paper And both sides of the fence; They sensed disgrace And sure enough there were elections Familiar cowboys tried to steal the show Men spoke of changing attitudes, While thirteen tired platitudes Pushed hope and John's lorry off the road. (From 'Irish Eyes'. Anthony John Clarke, 1993) DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 04 Nov 11 - 04:57 PM there were IRA snipers in the vicinity - now admitted to be a lie. Now known to be true. See above. I believe you've even put forward similar excuses for the massacre yourself (another lie, no doubt). No, I have never claimed it was self defence. Who here ever has? The deliberate targeting of civilians by Israeli troops has bacome commonplace I am not aware of this, please substantiate. The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian fighters has been a commonplace for years. Do you need that substantiated? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: ollaimh Date: 22 Feb 11 - 04:47 PM isn't ot terriblethat that several arab governments are using the army to shoot their own citizens for protesting--oh was that the united emirates or the united kingdom--it get hard to keep track.! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 31 Jan 11 - 07:42 AM A footnote: Today's Irish Times carries the report of one of the largest demonstrations ever seen in Derry, when yeterday tens of thousands of marchers marked the 39th aniversery of Bloody Sunday by completing the original march route to the city's Guildhall. The march was headed by relatives who carried a large banner bearing the word VINDICATED. The commemoration is intended to be the last such rally following the Saville report last year which overturned the original investigation by Lord Widgery and exonerated the dead and injured, but some of the vicims' relatives broke away from the main demonstration, and some vowed they would return every year. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:03 PM You are simply making this stuff up. Why? Basicaly, Keith, because some people just do not want peace. They do not want to let it lie. They just want to perpetuate the fight between ordinary everyday Englishmen and Irishmen. Whether they know it or not they are just the lackeys of the landowners and the media barons that have surpassed the wildest dreams of every bastard who wants to keep the ordinary folk in their place. As long as we are fighting each other they hope we will not notice that they are still stealing our very lives. Jim - They would if soldiers shooting down unarmed Englis, Scots or Welsh demontrators and I'd be one of the first; Peterloo, St Georges Fields, Laha Airfield, Chenogne, Mai Lai. Just a few at random. Need I go on? Worse massacres have happened over the centuries in every single country in the world I expect. I am half Polish and would never dream of bringing up the attrocities suffered in that country over the years. Why should the Irish troubles carry more weight than those of my people? To all the shitstirrers out there - Why don't you just put a sock in it and, in Lennons words, give peace a chance? DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 22 Jul 10 - 04:47 AM Ollaimh, "i supose its possible the paras have no discipline but i don't believe it fort as second" Only 4 of them Ollaimh. "they were ordered to kill by officers who were motivated to kill," No they were not. Why do you state that? "said later they tried to stop the firing and were threatened by their own officers." Not true. Why do you make these statements? "well they were. they committed genocide in africa and in north america but british people forget." I certainly can not remember that. "because they had to alter the offenses against the state act and the terroridsts acts the british government rescinded the presumption of innonence so they could get conviction. they abandoned their oldest civil liberties protection to continue the cover up frame up torture and killings of irishmen and women." You are simply making this stuff up. Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: ollaimh Date: 21 Jul 10 - 01:46 PM anyone who claims racism must know that the essential component is actual oppression and or loss or depravation. bnoit just i was insulted. for the british on this thread to claim that those who oppose the racist killings are themselves racists is tyhe height of ignorance and hypocracy. WAKE UP, NO BRITISH WERE KILLED only irish. furthermore the idea that the paras wer fired upon is some justification assumes they are mad dogs--perhaps convient for me --but i don't believe that. i have served in a military unit and i have many friends who served overseas as peace keepers. they took hundreds of incomming rounds without responding. whay? because there were civilians there. its called military discipline. i supose its possible the paras have no discipline but i don't believe it fort as second. they were motivated to killand they were ordered to kill by officers who were motivated to kill, because they all believed a iriah man protesting isa terrorist and should be killed. several of the paras who refused to perjure themselves before the widgery commission (and were shipped out) said later they tried to stop the firing and were threatened by their own officers. this is no different that amritsar nand many other civilian murders by the british army in its imperial violence acrtoss most of the world. many british can'y acknowledge this because if they werw rong in ireland they were wrong everywhere. well they were. they committed genocide in africa and in north america but british people forget. if any of you read other languages you should read what other europeans think, not very complimentary. the french compare it to algeria where they pulled out to end the civil war, even though they had a few departments where the settlers were a majority and the right wanted to keep those. they resettled two and a half million people. the british establishment has covered up the abuses in ireland from the beg8inning. lortd denning--the master of the rolls--siad it ewould have been better that the birmingham six and the macguires have been tried when they had the death penality as then the abuse would never have come out and brought the admisstration of justice into disrepute. in other words better to kill the innocent than admit they were framed. this has happened at every level. the british criminal laws were found not to meet european union standards of human rights and britasin was found guilty of torture. etc etc. really if you want to claim clean hands you actually have to clean them not continue the cover ups , frame ups torture and killings. because they had to alter the offenses against the state act and the terroridsts acts the british government rescinded the presumption of innonence so they could get conviction. they abandoned their oldest civil liberties protection to continue the cover up frame up torture and killings of irishmen and women. forgive and forget would be nice but you actuaslly have to stop first. prosecute the framers and troturers and hold public enquiries into all levels of those involves not just tell others forgive us so we can do it again |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 17 Jul 10 - 07:53 AM Curious. When I challenged the opinion of others on what led to BS, people lined up to tell me I knew nothing, could not think for myself, was in a hole, etc., etc. A few posts up I gave my version of what led to it. Not one person has challenged a word. Invective is easier I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Jul 10 - 03:20 AM Now you have shown your face again Jim, remember that you lied to undermine and discredit my post. If you do not acknowledge the lie, you still perpetrate it. Are you not an honest man? Do the right thing please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jul 10 - 02:58 PM "The big difference is that no-one expects an enquiry about them and they are not regurgitated at every opportunity. " They would if soldiers shooting down unarmed Englis, Scots or Welsh demontrators and I'd be one of the first; I hope you wouldn't be far behind me. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 Jul 10 - 11:15 AM because they were subjected to foreign occupation and suspension of civil law for centuries--oh whoops that didn\t happen ok then their religious majority were barred from all public offoce holding and mosy professions--oh whoops that didn't happen well then they were rounded up onto ships and transported against their will to foreign lands where they were reduced to contractual servitude--oh whoopd that didn't happen then at least they were musdered by the soldiers who were sent to keep order==whoops that didn't happen Errrrrrr. The English, Scots and Welsh (being the components of Great Britain) have been subject to all these things in the past. As were many other nations. The big difference is that no-one expects an enquiry about them and they are not regurgitated at every opportunity. Until all sides learn to forgive, if not forget, then the province will continue to suffer from the riots and violence that seems to plage it. DeG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bloody Sunday Report - AT LAST From: *#1 PEASANT* Date: 14 Jul 10 - 04:20 PM Now they can investegate the bloody 11th night incidents. What fun. |
